Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lestolpe 02-20-06, 07:24 PM	New to the board so any help would be appreciated! Just as the title says, I want a Battlesmith. I'm going for a dwarven cleric of Tharmekhul (RoS) with the Fire and War domains. Also, I was planning on taking the 1st and 4th cleric sub levels. So with war, I'll get WF warhammer and I'd be taking endurance by 6th level to qualify for BS asap. I haven't laid out stats yet, but I'm thinking that STR, WIS, and CON are going to be the most important. I want the character to be a tough combatant too. The sources allowed are PHB, MM, DMG, the "complete's", and "races of...". I don't need extremely specific builds, just help with feats and class progression and the like. Unless you're inclined or have an amazing one already made up, then by all means post it! Thanks all!
PhoenixInferno 02-20-06, 11:06 PM	Battlesmith is only good as a 1-level dip, just to add a splash of WIS-to-damage-with-Warhammers. Any more than that is...well, SINFUL (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499). Getting lots of buffs up would be a bit of a challenge without Divine Metamagic (Persistant), but Divine MM (Quicken) should be good enough. If your point-buy doesn't allow you to get much CHA, then Metamagic Rods of Extend and/or of Quicken would do nicely. Cleric 6/Battlesmith 1/Cleric 7-19 should do nicely.
lestolpe 02-21-06, 12:55 AM	First off...Thank you for that link!!!!!! I laughed my *** off! Anyways, why would I want CHA? I was planning on it being a dump stat since I won't be turning undead, via cleric sub @ lvl 1. Also, having a bit of a brain-fart, but where are the divine mm's? I can't seem to remember...
PhoenixInferno 02-21-06, 01:12 AM	Both questions lead to the same answer. Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine) lets you use Turn Undead attempts to fuel metamagic instead of preparing the spell ahead of time with the spell level adjustment. In order to use Divine Metamagic effectively, you need some (or all) of the following: a)big time CHA (because CHA helps determine your turn attempts) b)Extra Turning c)Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) - magic items that grant Extra Turning Hmm...you actually took Dwarven Cleric 1? OK, so you don't have to worry about CHA.
Gavinfoxx 02-21-06, 12:32 PM	Here's a build I'm doing... It uses some stuff from Faerun, and requires DM approval... Campaign specific stuff: 1.) You can be a cleric of a pantheon, and have access to the domains in that pantheon. Faerun has an example dwarf pantheon... 2.) When you choose the war domain and you worship the pantheon, your favored weapon becomes the favored weapon of the leader of the pantheon 3.) You can worship the dwarf pantheon and still take the Moradin-specific dwarf cleric substitution levels, as well as stuff like Hammer of Moradin 4.) The planning domain is somewhere in the Dwarf pantheon 5.) Gold Dwarves exist in the world you are playing in (they are dwarves that dont have a penalty to charisma, but have one to dex instead) 6.) You can use craft weaponsmith to craft one of the 'as hard as iron' woods, like Bronzewood or Bluewood Okay, first of all... NEVER TAKE THE FIRST DWARF CLERIC SUBSTITUTION LEVEL... it keeps you from getting the most awesome stuff... second... to do stuff early, you need to have access to a Nightstick or an 18 charisma... charisma is the most important stat in this build, and all bonuses you get from levelling up should go to charisma. I maxed four skills at each level up: Craft (weaponsmith), knowledge (religion), concentration, and spellcraft. Some important things for this character to get are tools to be able to do weaponsmithing 'on the road', magical items to increase weaponsmithing skill, a rod of lesser extend metamagic, a masterwork bronzewood warhammer that he crafted himself, some wands of lesser vigor, a wand of alicorn lance at low levels (so he can be a blaster!) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020719a some scrolls of lesser restoration, some scrolls of panacea, and the heaviest armor and shield he can wear (my DM let me get a 'nicer than you would normally have' mundane or low magic item at level 1, I chose to get a Dwarfcrafted Adamantine Heavy Shield...) And, of course, as many Nighsticks as you can carry!!! Anyway! The domains you should take are Planning, for Extend spell, and War, for weapon proficiency and weapon focus with a Warhammer. Since I managed to get at least a 14 int, I have 4 skill points a level, what I need. My cha is an 18...without that or a nightstick, I wouldn't be able to do any divine metamagic persistant until level 9... since I'm a cleric, my wisdom is high, and since I'm a primary tank, my con is high too.. this is a fairly stat intensive build... 1. Cleric 1, Persistant Spell 2. Cleric 2 3. Cleric 3, Divine Metamagic (persistant spell) 4. Dwarf Cleric substitution level 4 5. Cleric 5 6. Cleric 6, Endurance 7. Cleric 7 8. Cleric 7/Battlesmith 1 9. Cleric 8/Battlesmith 1, Extra Turning 10. Cleric 9/Battlesmith 1 11. Cleric 10/Battlesmith 1 12. Cleric 11/Battlesmith 1, Extra Turning 13. Cleric 12/Battlesmith 1 14. Cleric 13/Battlesmith 1 15. Cleric 14/Battlesmith 1, Power Attack 16. Cleric 15/Battlesmith 1 17. Cleric 16/Battlesmith 1 18. Cleric 17/Battlesmith 1, Extra Turning 19. Cleric 18/Battlesmith 1 20. Cleric 19/Battlesmith 1 Anyway... you should use the rod of lesser extend metamagic to cast extended spikes or brambles on your warhammer... they used to stack, but the most updated version, the one in the Spell Compendium, no longer lets them stack. Also, if your DM allows flaws, there is a flaw in a Dragon Magazine for Clerics that says that they are only allowed to use the favored weapon of their diety, and lose proficiency in all other weapons (and it notes that this doesnt necessarily gain them proficiency in their diety's weapon). If you can get this, it will let you have another feat at level one, which is pretty nice... Anyway, lots of fun spells can be persisted! Divine Favor at low levels lets you get a +1 to hit and damage with all your weapons... with divine metamagic, you get this *all day*... or, with enough nightsticks, you could persist that and, say, prayer, so its working all day... by seventh level, you can have Divine Power persisted *all day*, making you a better fighter than a fighter! Especially if you have extended spikes on your warhammer all day too!
Leothlen 02-21-06, 03:04 PM	where can i find battlesmith? thx
PhoenixInferno 02-21-06, 03:07 PM	where can i find battlesmith? thx Races of Stone
lestolpe 02-21-06, 03:20 PM	I'm not really sure if this is the build I'm looking for, I can't tell if its supposed to be a tank or what? Just a little clarification would be nice :) There's still a few problems though, on my end anyways. We won't be playing Faerun, so I doubt we will have gold dwarves (I've never even read about them so I'm guessing they're in one of the Faerun handbooks. None of which I have.) Also, I've heard of, but never read about, any of the brambles or spikes spells...Could you list the sources for most of your build so I can tinker with it later? Once again though, THANKS EVERYONE!!! I really appreciate the help!!
Gavinfoxx 02-21-06, 04:05 PM	okay... my build pretty much needs a dwarf that doesn't get a penalty to charisma. That's all a gold dwarf is, a race of dwarf that has the penalty to charisma instead applied to dex. Ask your DM if you can do that. Brambles and Spikes are in Complete Divine, and the updated (and less powerful but still quite powerful!) versions are in Spell Compendium, which is a VERY VERY useful book to get! Nightsticks are from Libris Mortis, and those are VERY useful and important to these builds... Persistant Spell is in Complete Arcane, Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell) is in Complete Divine... Gold Dwarves are in Races of Faerun... Planning domain is Complete Warrior.. Bronzewood is in Arms and Equipment Guide, but there are other types of wood as hard as iron or steel all over D&D... I think Bronzewood is also in Eberron Campaign Setting
lestolpe 02-21-06, 04:23 PM	excellent! thanks! Now the question is, do I really want to be a dwarf anymore?!? The main reason was for the Battlesmith PrC, but it seems like the consensus is to only take the 1st level of the that... So would I be better off with a different race? And what benefit does the planning domain grant? Would taking a domain like celerity ( or any other for that matter) be better than war if I use a simple, wooden weapon? I know these are alot of basic questions, but while I'm at work I don't have access to my books to check these out myself... Thanks in advance Gavinfoxx!
Gavinfoxx 02-21-06, 04:30 PM	Here's why this build is powerful.. Lets say you are level 8, have 2 nightsticks for a + 8 turning attempts, giving you 15 total turning attempts, you have put your 2 bonuses into charisma and gotten an 18 charisma by then, you have a 12 base strength, and a 16 wisdom. You are using a + 1 Holy Bronzewood warhammer that you crafted yourself. Your domains give you weapon focus and weapon proficiecny with a warhammer. At the beginning of each day where you are planning on adventuring, you cast an extended spikes on your warhammer, and a Persistant Divine Power and a Persistant Prayer. Here's your to hit with your warhammer... 12 strength (+ 1) Divine power gives + 6 to strength (+3) Weapon focus: warhammer (+1) Spikes gives + 2 enhancement to hit, overriding the weapon's +1 (+2) Divine Power makes your BAB as a fighter (+8) Prayer (+1) that means you have a +16 to hit on your first attack and a + 11 to hit on your second attack -- oh, and your enemies have a - 1 AC... Now what is your damage? Well, a Warhammer does 1d8 Holy means it does 2d6 more to evil enemies Spikes means it has a + 7 damage, since 7 is your caster level -- this overrides the + 1 enhancement bonus the weapon has Your cleric 4 substitution level gives you + 2 damage With Divine Power, your strength is now 18, and so you get + 4 damage Prayer gives you + 1 damage You get Wisdom to Damage from Battlesmith, so thats +3 So thats 1d8 + 2d6 + 17, and you can do that twice in a full attack action... and gauntlets of ogre strength and a priapt of wisdom are inexpensive...
lestolpe 02-21-06, 04:38 PM	I bow down to your superior knowledge... that is amazing.
Gavinfoxx 02-21-06, 04:40 PM	And you dont use a simple wooden weapon. You use a weapon that can only be made effectively as wood with an exotic as-hard-as-steel type of wood that is very expensive and difficult to find, so Spikes (and Brambles, before that) works on it. Its even worse if you are using the unupdated versions of Spikes and Brambles -- if you use those, they stack, so you get to add another + 7 to the damage.. and also, if you are using the original, web enhancement version of Checkmate's Light, seen here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040915a That can be persisted, which (using only two more nightsticks to this build), means that you get + 2d6 versus any chaotic creatures you hit with your weapon... the updated version does not do that... Oh, and by this point, you are wielding a lawful, holy magic weapon that does piercing and bashing damage.
lestolpe 02-21-06, 04:58 PM	Luckily, I think we're not using spell compendium. And I didn't mean a "simple wooden weapon", I wouldn't debase it that bad :) . I meant using a simple weapon instead, like a staff, that's made out of wood. But, the way you laid out damage, I think I'll stick with a dwarf for battlesmith. Now, I can't help but want that wooden hammer to be a flaming burst weapon... :D Checkmate's light looks pretty good too. Is there a Holy version similar to that so I could start with a Flaming weapon and enhance it with spells for aximomatic and holy?
Gavinfoxx 02-21-06, 05:08 PM	Why dont you use a mace? Dwarf 4 cleric substitution level -- only works with Moradin's favored weapon, the Warhammer. Since you are GOING to use a warhammer eventually any way, why not get Weapon Focus with it for free, and be using a warhammer all the way from level 1? And the idea of this build is to not have to buff during the combat itself... you buff at the beginning of the day and go on your merry way. This means ONLY buffs that... a.) last at least an hour a caster level and can be extended or b.) Can be persisted using persistant divine metamagic Because, with the damage you are capable of doing in one round, its just not worth it to spend even the first round of combat buffing! Holy, in DMG, gives 2d6 versus evil Axiomatic, also in DMG, gives 2d6 vs chaotic There are spells to make your weapon good aligned (I believe Paladin has one), but I dont think anything to give it 2d6... Frost weapon, from page 95 of frostburn, gives it 1d6 of frost damage, but thats a TOUCH (non persistable, only extendable) spell that only lasts a round per level -- and thats a round where you could have attacked! Remember... do NOT take the first or 8th dwarf cleric substitution level!
lestolpe 02-22-06, 02:23 PM	Alright, now I'm back with the problems... 1. No gold dwarves, they just don't exist (dwarves are supposed to be gruff, who ever heard of a friendly dwarf?!?) 2. No wooden warhammer (why would any self-respecting dwarf use a wooden hammer when there's plenty 'o metal and stone around?!?) 3. No planning domain, its not listed in Races of Stone as part of the dwarven pantheon. So... aside from all those, I still like the build, but I need to make a few changes. First of all, how much do 'nightsticks' cost and what exactly do they do? I don't have Libris Mortis so I can't really look it up. Next, would my feat progression be: 1st-Extend Spell 3rd-Persistant Spell 6th-Divine Meta-magic (persistant) The only problem that presents is getting into Battlesmith later because I still need Endurance. I also wanted to take Power Attack at some point, probably a little later on when I have some BAB to trade, so that's not a huge deal. Also, I'll need Extra Turning's so I can even use DM-Per. So basically, I need help reorganizing this build to make it effective. One last thing, are there any spells like brambles/spikes that affect metal instead of wood? Thanks again!
Gavinfoxx 02-23-06, 05:11 PM	Alright. gonna need to modify this build... You can do some of the stuff with being human... Human who doesn't worship any particular god with metal and planning domain Metal gives him weapon focus and weapon proficiency with any hammer... in this case, you want to choose a Maul from Complete Warrior... Planning gives him extend spell... For feats, do human feat: Persistant spell Level 1 feat: Divine Metamagic (Persistant spell) Level 3: Extra Turning Level 6: Power Attack and the rest is open. if they dont want to use nightsticks, just do the rest "extra turning" You can stay cleric 20 with this... No need to be a crafter, no need to build your own weapon, no need to get endurance, no desperate need for nightsticks, no need to use a wooden weapon, no need to build a dwarfcrafted weapon and fight with it, no penalty to Charisma, no need to worship any god in particular... you can even be exalted and get ancestral weapon, so you can make your maul incredibly uber very quickly... you could even give him leadership... with the high charisma, and the "metal and planning" domains, he is going to be all about the idea of well equipped, well trained troops working as a finely tuned machine in a battlefield situation... Anyway, a good idea for that weapon is a + 1 Aurorum Sure Striking Metalline maul... that would overcome most any damage resistance! :) Have the highest level cohort be a human Artificer if you can manage it, or a human magic crafting-based Wizard if you cant, and the second highest be a dwarf rogue that specializes in mundane crafting of all sorts for making dwarvencraft weapons for everyone... You should REALLY consider getting Spell Compendium, and then having your cleric try and get Scribe Scroll... with that many cleric spells, you want to be able to cast the more esoteric ones when needed...
lestolpe 02-23-06, 05:38 PM	With that human build wouldn't it be more beneficial to take a better domain than metal? If you took a level of fighter or barbarian you could take any martial weapon you wanted, like a greatclub for example. That way you could use the brambles and spikes spells. Of course, you would lose a level of spell casting, but a better domain and weapon seem like they would be worth it, right? With a level in Barb and the Celerity domain you would have +20' to your base land speed and the ability to rage 1/day. You could even take a few rage feats then. What do you think?
Gavinfoxx 02-23-06, 05:45 PM	Yea, that's probably better... Just get him some Mithril Full Plate and wield a bronzewood Maul or Warmace two handed (then its martial...) That would work... The reason I chose Metal is that it essentially gets you exotic weapon proficiency with any exotic hammer you want, as well as weapon focus with that same hammer. So you could wield a Maul one handed, or go with a Goliath Greathammer two handed...
lestolpe 02-23-06, 05:57 PM	Does it list anything under the Metal domain about wielding a 'wooden' hammer? That just seems like it wouldn't be allowed... And off the top of your head (or the books if you have them with you) Does a Barb's movement work with only light armor or with light and medium? And if you happen to know the same answer when dealing with the Celerity domain that would be helpful too!
Gavinfoxx 02-23-06, 06:01 PM	Yea, I know... good point... But you dont have to... after all, you can't get Metalline on a wooden hammer! And you can't get Aurorum either! Which is more important, Spikes for the extra damage or Aurorum for the quick repair and Metalline for the DR foes... it depends on whether you want to power through the damage resistant ones with pure bonus damage or change the type of the hammer to whatever they are weak in... Ah! You would have to wear a Mithril Breastplate or a Halfweight Mithril Full Plate for the celerity bonus to speed... So you need light armor...
LordOfHavoc 02-24-06, 05:14 AM	FYI, as far as I know the Metal Domain got nerfed in the Spell Compedium. Now it only gives proficiancies with the warhammer or light hammer, not 'any' hammer as it used to be :(
Gavinfoxx 02-24-06, 08:47 AM	Only warhammer or light hammer? Damn. Well then, Celerity or another domain is a lot better...
Gavinfoxx 03-01-06, 06:07 PM	I found an interesting Prestige Class in Dragon 328... Its called "Justice Hammer of Moradin", which is vastly different than just "Hammer of Moradin"... Anyway, the first level gives you War Domain and +1d4 fire damage with a warhammer... which is pretty nice! :) So Here's what I would do... if I wanted to go for higher level power at the expense of earlier power, I would start out as a Gold Dwarf cleric with, say, Dwarf and Planning domains, and then switch to a Warhammer at Dwarf Substitution 4, get the prerequisites for this class ASAP (Iron Will and Power Attack...) and take a level of Justice Hammer of Moradin... If you can get a house rule that Dwarves have access to a homebuilt domain that gives the feat "Iron Will", than this would be MUCH easier... Another thing that would make this easier is some of the Cleric flaws from Dragon 326... "Weapon Bound" would be interesting, and a true flaw, since you would have to go three levels using a weapon you aren't proficient with...
Gavinfoxx 03-08-06, 04:19 PM	House rules required (a few of these are pretty wierd... you don't need all of these, but I'm going to have all of them to exemplify my 'favorite' build...): *Dwarves can be clerics of the dwarven pantheon, and get the domains within that pantheon *Dwarven clerics of the dwarven pantheon, when they get the war domain, get benefitrs regarding the weapon of the leader of the pantheon, the Warhammer from Moradin *The Dwarf domain gives you Iron Will *OR* Great Fortitude *The Dwarven pantheon gives access to the Planning Domain *At least one flaw is allowed *Classes and flaws from Dragon are allowed *Dwarven cleric substitution levels are allowed, even for dwarven clerics that worship the Pantheon and not just Moradin *A dwarf can be a Justice Hammer of Moradin while worshiping the dwarven pantheon, and not just Moradin *its possible to craft a warhammer from one of the 'as hard as iron' woods using craft: weaponsmith gold dwarf 1.) Cleric of the dwarven pantheon, with modified dwarf domain (to get Iron Will) and Planning domain (For extend Spell) Flaw: Weapon Bound (can only use a Warhammer... note that for levels 1 - 3, he is not proficient in the warhammer's use...) feats: Persistant Spell Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell) 2.) Cleric 2 3.) Cleric 3; Feat: Endurance 4.) Dwarf Cleric 4; + 1 cha 5.) Cleric 5 6.) Cleric 6; feat: Power Attack 7.) Cleric 7 8.) Battlesmith 1; + 1 cha 9.) Justice Hammer of Moradin 1; feat: Extra turning From there on, do your best to get into... contemplative church inquisitor Divine Oracle sacred exorcist Which ones to go into, and in which order, depends on how much intelligence the cleric has, and what skills are necessary at the time... edit: Looks like spikes and brambles are now combat buffs only... ahhh well... back to metal weapons...
pvrhye 03-10-06, 10:18 PM	Battlesmith looks to me as though it is meant to be paired with Shou Disciple.
Gavinfoxx 03-10-06, 10:45 PM	Shou disciple...? Why is that? I always thought fighter or cleric...
pvrhye 03-11-06, 04:59 AM	Flurrying with a warhammer when you have a good wisdom mod would be pretty nice.