Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JosephKell 01-17-05, 10:07 PM	Tanking is a very effective way to go with a melee PC. All Melee Fighters inevitably gravitate towards the role. Tanking isn't pretty, it isn't fancy, it isn't complicated. Keys to Tanking: 1. Staying Power - Hit Points, Armor Class, Damage Reduction. 2. Attack Power - BAB, Damage. (written assuming Good PC's and Neutral-Positive PC's) Barbarian: 1. d12 Hit Dice hint at a lot of staying power, but when you consider the primary class feature of the Barbarian Class, Rage, it kind of loses something. A Multiclassed Barbarian can probably use Heavy Armor to increase its longevity. Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense can help preserve a Barbarian. 2. Barbarians are all about Attack Power. Two-handed Weapons and Strength Boost via Rage. Bard: 1. d6 Hit Dice and Light Armor kind of hurt the Bard's prospects as a Tank. Bards can learn Cure Spells. 2. Inspire Courage is nice, it is sort of like Weapon Focus and half Weapon Specialization at level 1. The 3/4 BAB rate means that every level into a new 4 level group is a BAB lost. Cleric: 1. d8 Hit Dice, Heavy Armor, Shields, (Spontaneous) Cure Magic, and Defensive Spells. 2. 3/4 BAB. Clerics can use Morningstars and Heavy Maces, which are almost as good as Longswords, Battleaxes, and Warhammers. Certain spells can increase the Damage ability of a Cleric temporarily. Druid: 1. d8 Hit Dice, Medium Armor, Shields, Cure Magic, Defensive Spells, Wild Shape. 2. 3/4 BAB. A Druid's melee Attack forms seem limited until they can Wild Shape (Scimitars are second rate), but the Animal Companion can act as an additional warrior. Fighter: 1. d10 Hit Dice, Heavy Armor, Shields. 2. Full BAB. Two-handed Weapons, Exotic One-Handed Weapons.. Weapon Specialization Tree. Monk: 1. d8 Hit Dice, Monk AC bonus, Evasion, variety of interesting defensive abilities (Still Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Slow Fall) 2. 3/4 BAB (but Flurry of Blows changes that). Steadily improving Unarmed Damage, Stunning Fist Paladin: 1. d10 Hit Dice, Heavy Armor, Shield, Aura of Courage, Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Divine Health (and that is just the first 4 levels). Also has some minor spells. 2. Big BAB. Smite Evil, Special Mount, Turn Undead Ranger: 1. d8 Hit Dice, Light Armor, some spells, Camouflage, and at level 17th: Hide in Plain Sight. 2. Full BAB, Combat Style (lost if in Medium or Heavy Armor), Favored Enemy, Animal Companion. Track and Swift Tracker. Rogue: 1. d6 Hit Dice, Light Armor, Evasion, Trap Finding, Uncanny Dodge, "Special Ability" 2. 3/4 BAB, Sneak Attack, Morning Star. Sorcerer and Wizard: 1. d4 Hit Dice, no armor, spells 2. Morning Star, spells. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Classes to really consider are Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue. First Level: NEVER take Rogue as your first level if you are the designated Party Tank. The skill points might seem like a good reason to, but you are weak on hit points. If you want a lot of Skill Points, consider Barbarian or Ranger for your first level. Basic Combinations: Rogue 4 - The Bully. 2d6 Hit Dice, +3 BAB, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, 4(8+Int Modifier) skill points, (no Evasion as Tanks want to use Heavy Armor). Cleric 4 - Battle Medic. Turn Undead, the ability to Cast Cure spells on himself, and Heavy Armor. Fighter 2 - 2d10 HD, +2 BAB, 2 bonus feats, Full Martial Weapon Prof, Full Armor and Shields. Paladin 2 - 2d10 HD, +2 BAB, Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Full Martial Weapons, All Armor and Shields (not Tower). Races: Dwarf - +2 Con (-2 Cha), Stability, Basic Speed is unaffected by armor, Waraxe as a martial weapon, Darkvision, bonuses against specific races (Giants have such a small chance to touch a Dwarf in Heavy Armor), and Favored Class of Fighter. Half-Orc - +2 Str (-2 Int, -2 Cha), Darkvision, and Favored Class of Barbarian. Human - Bonus Feat, Favored Class of highest current class. Half-Elf - Flexible Favored Class, some skill bonuses (Spot and Listen). Other Races in the Player's Handbook are either small sized or decrease their Constitution. For races from other sources, go for Medium Size with a bonus to Str or Con. Sample Tank: Dwarf Fighter 2/Cleric 4/Pious Templar 4/Hammer of Moradin 10 Sources: 3.5 Player's Handbook, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Divine, Races of Stone Pious Templar Requires: BAB +5, Knowledge (Religion) 4, True Believer, and Weapon Focus Hammer of Moradin Requires: BAB +7, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 10 ranks, Iron Will, and Weapon Focus (Warhammer). Stats: 25 Pt: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 28 Pt: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 32 Pt: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14 clvl class BAB Fort Ref Will HD Spells (C/P) Feats & Specials 1st Ftr 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 10 -|-/- // -/- Power Attack, Bonus Feat (Cleave) 2nd Ftr 1/Clr 1 +1 +4 +0 +2 10 3|2/- // -/- Smite Giant (+2) 2/day, Protection and Earth Domains 3rd Ftr 1/Clr 2 +2 +5 +0 +3 8 4|3/- // -/- True Believer (Moradin) 4th Ftr 1/Clr 3 +3 +5 +1 +3 8 4|3/2 // -/- Attribute Increase 5th Ftr 1/Clr 4 +4 +6 +1 +4 10 5|4/2 // -/- Dwarf Sub Level - Hammer Specialist (Weapon Focus and +2 damage) 6th Ftr 2/Clr 4 +5 +7 +1 +6 12 5|4/2 // -/- Dwarf Sub Level - Racial Foes, Iron Will 7th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 1 +6 +9 +1 +8 10 5|4/2 // 1/- Mettle 8th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 2 +7 +10 +1 +9 10 5|4/2 // 2/- Smite 1/day, Attribute Increase 9th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3 +8 +10 +2 +9 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Damage Reduction 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Warhammer), Great Cleave 10th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 1 +9 +12 +2 +11 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Aura of Courage, Hammer Throw 11th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 2 +10 +13 +2 +12 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Goblin Killer, Hammer Return 12th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 3 +11 +13 +5 +12 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Damage Reduction 2/-, Powerful Grip, Lightning Reflexes, Attribute Increase 13th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 4 +12 +14 +5 +13 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Far Shot, Quake 14th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 5 +13 +14 +5 +13 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Drowbasher, Power Strike 2/day 15th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 6 +14 +15 +6 +14 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Damage Reduction 4/-, Heavy Armor Optimization 16th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 7 +15 +15 +6 +14 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Chaos Crusher, Stalwart, Attribute Increase 17th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 8 +16 +16 +6 +15 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Giant Slayer, Thunder Strike 18th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 9 +17 +16 +7 +15 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Damage Reduction 6/-, Power Throw, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (ACP 3 better, Armor +2) 19th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 3/HoM 10 +18 +17 +7 +16 10 5|4/2 // 2/1 Bones of the Earth, Power Strike 4/day 20th Ftr 2/Clr 4/PsT 4/HoM 10 +19 +18 +7 +17 10 5|4/2 // 2/2 Bonus Feat (Improved Toughness)This Dwarf is a monster with a Warhammer. By level 18 with a one-handed melee Warhammer attack, the Tank deals 1d8+4+1.5*Str Modifier damage. With the best armor available and a Heavy Shield, this Dwarf can take a licking and keep on kicking (well pounding). By level 17, heavily armored foes take more damage from him. Other architypes... The Bully - Utilizing 4 levels of Rogue for Sneak Attack and concentrating on Flanking manuevers. Mounted Warrior - Paladin or Fighter/Cavalier path. Anyone that has an opinion or an example, please chime in.
Devant 01-17-05, 11:31 PM	Feat: Goad? Cheap, underhanded, and effective.
Psifon 01-18-05, 12:19 AM	2. Attack Power - BAB, Damage. BAB and damage are very important, but they are only 2/3 of the picture. A good tank squeezes an extra attack or two out of every round. A partial list of techinques for getting extra attacks out of a round include: Cleave/Great Cleave Whirlwind Attack Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon Elusive Target and Improved Trip These capabilities can allow the tank to GREATLY increase his damage output over what simple BAB and Damage alone can give. I am not talking about battlefield control here, just getting extra attacks in at every possible opportunity. These things can add up over time, and as they do, your damage output goes up greatly. Note that many of the extra attacks you get with these abilities use your full BAB, which means that a two handed fighter can really exploit Power Attack as well.
Psifon 01-18-05, 12:21 AM	Also, help me out on your build there: Which abilities are feats and which are class abilities (i find it hepfull if you post the feats chosen in bold print) Thanks.
JosephKell 01-18-05, 12:51 AM	BAB and damage are very important, but they are only 2/3 of the picture. A good tank squeezes an extra attack or two out of every round. A partial list of techinques for getting extra attacks out of a round include: Cleave/Great Cleave Whirlwind Attack Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon Elusive Target and Improved Trip These capabilities can allow the tank to GREATLY increase his damage output over what simple BAB and Damage alone can give. I am not talking about battlefield control here, just getting extra attacks in at every possible opportunity. These things can add up over time, and as they do, your damage output goes up greatly. Note that many of the extra attacks you get with these abilities use your full BAB, which means that a two handed fighter can really exploit Power Attack as well.Those are all feats though. They aren't really class specific. Well Whirlwind Attack is because pretty much only for Fighters (4 feats just to qualify for it). I am more than a little surprised that no one blew up over my comment that Rogue is not the level to take first for a Tank. Haven't even seen the "If you start well above level 1, you have more than enough hit points to make up the 2/4/6 hit point difference," argument.
Griff_Goodbeard 01-18-05, 01:02 AM	This really isn't in tha spirit of the thread, but it bear's mentioning that over level 7-9 a straight dwarven cleric can be the best tank in the game. ;)
JosephKell 01-18-05, 01:47 AM	How many spells must be used? I know that an Extended 3rd level spell (Magic Vestment springs to mind) at level 7 for a Cleric could possibly last 14 hours, but the spells I think you are referring to only have a duration of 1 round/caster level. However. There are probably a lot of ways to only use 4 levels of Cleric and continue the Cleric casting, and lose no more than 1 BAB. That example I posted went through several revisions. 1st: Fighter 4/Cleric 4/Hammer of Moradin 10/___ 2nd: Fighter 4/Cleric 4/Hammer of Moradin 10/Warpriest 2 3rd: Fighter 2/Cleric 4/Warpriest 4/Hammer of Moradin 10 4th: Looked at the Prestige Paladin and the Hospitaler. The reason I used the Hammer of Moradin is because it has a lot of cool abilities (Power Throw, Thunder Strike, Powerful Grip, and the Damage Reduction is pretty nice). The divine magic requirement is a convenient excuse to put in some healing magic, since it is the one thing that the other core Tank classes can't provide. Cure Spells also automatically stablize a character. Actually, there is one Feat I forgot to mention. Possibly the most important feat. Diehard. Every Tank can benefit from it. They can either use the ability to retreat (or to cast a cure spell to keep from dying). Heck a Barbarian with Diehard could use their actions to get back and drink a potion before coming out of rage (because you can't cast spells during a rage).
Lforino 01-18-05, 01:47 AM	A great build is Bar1/FTR2/Rng1/Mnk2/DeepWarden2/ DwarfDefender6/Templar1/Exotic WeaponMaster1... then you can continue DD or take other classes. Use the Dwarven War Axe as primary weapon, take quick draw to bring out that glaive when enemies stay away and use to get AoO's w/ Combat reflexes. The most controversial part of the build is Mnk2.... Look at what you get, +3 to all saves, Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes as Bonus Feats, and the ability to strike at a creature that is grappling with you w/o dropping your weapon using the Monk unarmed attacks. Templar 1 gives you Mettle to stop those pesky Disintegrate and Harms spells. Exotic Weapon Master lets you use x2 STR when wielding 2 handed. Use an Animated Shield to jack up you AC and get your hands on a dancing Drarven War Axe made extra effective with the Quick Draw Feat.
Blade2718 01-18-05, 01:48 AM	I am more than a little surprised that no one blew up over my comment that Rogue is not the level to take first for a Tank. Haven't even seen the "If you start well above level 1, you have more than enough hit points to make up the 2/4/6 hit point difference," argument.Depends on the nature of the campaign. A first level game will have different tanking requirements than a tenth level one.
PhaedrusXY 01-18-05, 02:09 AM	I am more than a little surprised that no one blew up over my comment that Rogue is not the level to take first for a Tank. Haven't even seen the "If you start well above level 1, you have more than enough hit points to make up the 2/4/6 hit point difference," argument.If you're trying to make a tank, and playing in a game that starts at level 1, I agree with you that you probably shouldn't take your first level as rogue. But I'd still be tempted to do it, if I thought I could survive through that first level. ;)
catharz 01-18-05, 05:37 AM	Rogue is a great first level, but you can't tank as a rogue at first level. IMO Barbarian is the best. But if you don't have to tank initially, go ahead and do Rogue 1. And as for important things for a tank/valid tactics... My favorite is getting hit a lot. That is Karmic strike. Of course, there are a number of amazing things which can feed off of that, either damaging your enemies when they hit you or keeping them from hitting you when they hit you. Oh ya, and for classes: Psychic warrior (!!!), and Devoted defender 3. Especially Devoted defender 3. With 3 levels, you get all of the important abilities (and don't feel like you're wasting your time as a bodyguard). And Devo defender is AMAZING, especially with Karmic strike :) I also like Kishi charger. In fact, I have a list of good PrCs for tanks...Ahh, here it is: Blade dancer [OA, Drg 318] 1+, Devoted defender [S&F] 3, Exotic weapon master 1-3, Frenzied berserker [CW] 4-10, Iaijutsu master [OA, Drg 318] 1+, Kishi charger [OA, Drg 318] 6, Planar champion [MotP] 4, Shiba protector [OA, Drg 318] 1 & 10, Singh rager [OA, Drg 318] 4-5. Some of these were pointed out by Frank. Not very big, is it? If you aren't going to be PAOed, Bear warrior 1 or 5 is a very good addition, as is Warshaper and Deepwarden (check the 1-level dips thread for a BW/WS/DW tank build I posted :P). Oh ya, and did anyone mention reach? Ya, thats pretty important too.
Sir Gummibaerchen 01-18-05, 06:30 AM	What about Rng1/Ftr2/Psw2/Warmind6 or 10? Sweeping Strike is really nice for a frontliner! Only thing that sucks is your Will save. So maybe Hexblade3/Psw2/Wmdx.
Burning Duck 01-18-05, 07:24 AM	IMO People's Champion (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20011024a) is a great option for a tank character, specially for an HoM: Hammer of Revolution + Powerful Grip = 3(I think...)xSTRmod to damage Cleric4/Fighter1/Hammer of Moradin10/People's Champion5 Base Attack Bonus: +19/+14/+9/+4 Saves: +16 +5 +14 [35] (not counting racial bonus, Iron Will & Revolutionary Spirit) Hit Dices: 3d8 + 12d10 + 5d12 Skill Points: (2+INTmod)x23 4th cleric level is a dwarf cleric racial substitution level from RoS
Mommy was an Orc 01-18-05, 09:48 AM	The reason a Rogue 1 is such a powerful incentive for a Tank is that it allows you to use Int and Cha as dump stats and be useful in non-combat situations. A Rogue 1/Fighter 4 Dwarf with a 8 Int has 32 skill points, the same as a Fighter 4/Cleric 1 Dwarf with a 14 Int(32 skill points) Given the Hammer of Moradin's odd skill requirement, I'm not sure how it is practical to play one without at least a 12 Int. In point buy, that's a difference of 4 points - likely enough to give the Rogue 1/Fighter 4 an advantage of +2 Constitution. So the Rogue 1/Fighter 4 is going to have an average of 6+22+5 = 33 hp. The Fighter 4/Cleric 1 is going to have 10+16.5+4.5 = 31 hp. And note that the Rogue 1/Fighter 4 still has more skill points than the Fighter/Cleric. But then again, you also like Diehard as possibly the best feat in the game, a feat I consider about one of the worst in the game - get +10 hp, but die instantly when you go below '0' hp at the cost of 2 feats... I am more than a little surprised that no one blew up over my comment that Rogue is not the level to take first for a Tank. Haven't even seen the "If you start well above level 1, you have more than enough hit points to make up the 2/4/6 hit point difference," argument.
Xperiment 01-18-05, 09:51 AM	Rogue is a great first level, but you can't tank as a rogue at first level. IMO Barbarian is the best. I highly disagree. Unless your planning on continuing in the campaign a fighter is easily the most versatile tank at first level. You have full proficiency and if your a human you have three feats. First level gives you full hit points. So 18 con with +10 to hp is nice, but it can be better. Level 1 Human Fighter 10 (HP)+ 4(Con Score)+3(Toughness)+3(Toughness)+3(Tough ness)=23 HP Im not sure what the requirements for improved toughness are, but if you can afford them at first level that would add +10 each time you take them. Making your total HP 44 (because improved toughness adds an additional HD of your class level). Combine that with a high dex or str and your packing. Barbarian only starts off with 12 (HP)+4(Con)+3(Toughness)+3(Toughness)=22 and with the rage it can be good, but a fighter if played correctly can be much more of a tank. Imagine a lvl 1 fighter with 16 con, 18 dex, and some armor/shield combo that adds 7 to ac. Anyone your fighting would have to roll a natural 20 to hit you unless flat-footed or touched. And at lvl 1 you cant really afford magic items so your doing good. Also if your looking for a nice tank, you probably want to be able to help your party. DD is very nice for this. If someone threatens a melee attack within 5 feet of you they have to hit your AC to damage you, so not only can you dish out damage, but you can save your allies. Now just imagine a Dwarven Cleric, DD (devoted Defender), DD(Dwarven Defender). :D Another Idea is to be a Hexblade 3/Palidan 2/Fighter 2/Dwarven Defender 6/Devoted Defender 6/ A 1 level dip into some class with good 1st level skills. You have some really nice saves (+2 to all saves for each point of charisma due to Hexblade and Palidan levels), you have DR from Dwarven Defender, you can block attacks from allies with Devoted Defender. You can heal yourself, you take no damage on things that require a will or fortitude save if the damage is halved by a successful save normally. A decent level 1 dip could be into Barbarian, where you can rage and further increase your life. Also, I know this may seem odd, but a nice tank could potentially be a Palidan 2/Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 15. The main stat for all those classes if charisma. Long range and your set. Elf may be of use. You get composite longbow proficiency, which means you can pack a nice punch from far away with spells and if those run out you still have backup. Not to mention your saves will be pretty good due to the Hexblade and Palidan skills. So unless your fighting an archer your in good condition.
TalinXT 01-18-05, 11:40 AM	I've never been a big fan of simply having a tank with aton of tricks i may never use I like mine simple and to the point really. people are saying barbarians make good tanks? I'm not terribly sure while you've got plenty of great tanking things its almost all geared toward offense more then defense. Heck medium armor prof and a penalty to ac while raging is incetive enough not to bother tanking just pick up the biggest weapon you got and smash things.
Khazra Reborn 01-18-05, 12:00 PM	I think VoP monks make good tanks....nothing says battlefield control like 90ft movement.
Alratan 01-18-05, 06:49 PM	Ultimate cheesy tank build. A character with the Cloak of the Stars (BoED), the Evasion ability, and a +14 Ref save. This character is completely immune to non-magical manufactured weapons and is 95% immune to magical manufactured weapons.
JosephKell 01-18-05, 07:42 PM	Really Xperiment? Toughness? A Fighter at level 1 should be taking Weapon Focus (unless there is a good reason like the Dwarf who gets Weapon Focus in Warhammer via Dwarf Cleric) Non-Race Specific Tank: Walking: (1st) Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Or (2nd) Power Attack and Cleave. Mounted: (1st) Weapon Focus and Mounted Combat. (by the time you can afford a heavy warhorse, you will have Spirited Charge) Tanks don't just stand there and block, they have to be putting down guys as they come in. It is better to be charge attacked by a new enemy ever round then to let the same enemy full-round attack you. If you want lots of skills then take Barbarian or Ranger at level 1. That is the truth. And I wasn't comparing a Rogue 1/Fighter 4 (base 28 hp = 6 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5) to a Fighter 1/Cleric 4 (base 28 hp = 10 + 4.5 + 4.5 + 4.5 + 4.5) which do have the same base hit points (I don't know where you got your numbers from). But 8 hp (1d6+2) is around average damage for a Greatsword (83.3~3% of the time, damage is 8 or more on 2d6+3 damage). So, yeah I think Rogue 1 as a tank is a joke: Light armor, small HD, 0 BAB. And a Fighter 2/Cleric 4/Pious Templar 2 can qualify for Hammer of Moradin. You end up with a character with pretty much only 2.5 skills (k-Religion, Weaponsmithing, and Concentration). People's Champion is nice, but it was written in 2001. It is still a perfect example of a class written for a specific campaign. I didn't say Diehard is a great feat for everyone, but it could allow a Tank to act when near death to do something to keep from dying. A Barbarian could become "Dying" when it comes out of its rage, so Diehard could be a way to keep that from happening (pop a potion or run away and have someone CmW you). Rogue 1/Fighter 1 is very different than Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Even if you give both max hit points for each hit dice. Feats have requirements. You can't just save Feats and spend them later. Human Fighter 1/Rogue 1 has three feats that he gained at level 1 when his BAB was +1. Rogue 1/Fighter 1 has 3 feats, but 2 were at level 1 when he had a BAB of +0. It isn't just hit points, it is options.
talion09 01-18-05, 07:49 PM	... Level 1 Human Fighter 10 (HP)+ 4(Con Score)+3(Toughness)+3(Toughness)+3(Tough ness)=23 HP Im not sure what the requirements for improved toughness are, but if you can afford them at first level that would add +10 each time you take them. Making your total HP 44 (because improved toughness adds an additional HD of your class level)... Improved Toughness adds an extra HD per time you take the feat? As far as I remember, Improved toughness adds +1 HP per hit die you have, and it keeps on recalculating each time you gain new HD. (ie. 3rd level fighter gains 3 HP when he takes the feat) Essentially each time you take the Improved Tougness feat, it adds another +1 to your CON modifier, but only for Hit points.
JosephKell 01-18-05, 08:03 PM	Improved Toughness adds an extra HD per time you take the feat? As far as I remember, Improved toughness adds +1 HP per hit die you have, and it keeps on recalculating each time you gain new HD. (ie. 3rd level fighter gains 3 HP when he takes the feat) Essentially each time you take the Improved Tougness feat, it adds another +1 to your CON modifier, but only for Hit points.Improved Toughness can only be taken once. It doesn't have that subscript that says you can be taken again.
obrysii 01-18-05, 08:08 PM	A good race to play for pure con bonuses is the Bullywug (from Monsters of Faerun); +0 LA, and gets +6 con, but -2 to all mental stats.
neilthrun 01-18-05, 08:36 PM	No one has mentioned survivor from Savage Species.You get improved evasion, uncanny dodge and DR 5/-. No BAB progression though. Fighter 5 qualifies for it, but a 5th level in fighter is kind of dead, so how about human rogue1/fighter 5. Rogue 1-Dodge Mobility Fighter 1-Exotic Weapon Proficency(Something that can trip) Fighter 2-Combat Expertise-Improved (Disarm/Trip) Fighter 3- Fighter 4-Improved Toughness Survivor 1-Knockdown Survivor 2 Survivor 3 Survivor 4-Spring Attack Survivor 5 Or you could do a dwarven monk5/survivor 5 Monk 1-Extra Stunning Monk 2 Monk 3-Improved Toughness Monk 4 Monk 5 Survivor 1-Dodge Survivor 2 Survivor 3 Survivor 4-Mobility Survivor 5 Im sure someone can make something better than this. Theres probably a quicker way to get into survivor with clever multiclassing but I cant find it. EDIT I found an easier way into survivor. if you take one class with +2 fort, another with +2 will and one with +2 reflex your highest base save(+2) is lower than your HD(3). I think warlock1/fighter1/rogue1/survivor 5 could be nice
Funny Slaughter 01-18-05, 09:56 PM	I had this discussion some time ago with Joseph and i must admit that, for a tank, rogue1 is really suboptimal. you want the skills: fine, but what do you do with them? you have to go rogue3 to advance them a bit and every and each fighter-level really bites them. sneak=flank most of the times, means a rogue needs a tank to work. personally i do start my builds with rogue nontheless, hope to survive the first level and stay away from the iconic tank-role anyhow :embarrass or, to grab our discussion in the past: you were right but i do it another way nontheless :P i think fighter is mandatory for a tank: you need the heavy armor as well as the feats to propel your fighting versality. all the tactical manoeveurs should be performed by the tank and a reach-weapon is quite useful with this. gs Funny
JosephKell 01-18-05, 10:56 PM	Survivor is a huge no-no for a Tank. No BAB increase for 5 levels. Ranger gives nearly the same number of skills per level as a Rogue. The general Tank (and Warrior) rule is if you want a lot of skills take your first level as Barbarian or Ranger.
Ramses III 01-18-05, 11:16 PM	A tank really doesn't need that many skills though if its primary role is as a combat frontliner. Mind, fighter is pretty useless outside combat unless your DM lets you use roleplaying to replace social skills, but for a tank I prefer fighter through at least level 8. Here's why: Fighter 1: Dodge, Power Attack, Cleave Fighter 2: Mobility Fighter 3: Combat Expertise Fighter 4: Great Cleave Fighter 5 Fighter 6: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack Fighter 7 Fighter 8: Improved Critical: Scythe The idea of the build is "Massive Attack," i.e. you get the most attacks possible and use a 2 handed weapon (Scythe at level 8+, probably Greatsword before) for high damage. You have pretty good staying power with your armor and HP, and can make multiple attacks on a charge if you charge adjacent targets that are all within reach. I favor taking Shock Trooper and maybe Combat Brute pretty quickly after this, though Combat Reflexes is pretty nice too, especially if you can get Large size somehow (Sor/Wiz ally, go into PsyWar, etc.).
Psifon 01-19-05, 12:52 AM	I am very fond of Ramses' build also. Now for the higher levels add: Combat Reflexes Karmic Strike Improved Trip Elusive Target This feat combo gives you LOTS of extra attacks, as you can activate Karmic Strike, move through enemy ranks and provoke AoO's. If the enemy hits you, you can AoO back (at full BAB) thanks to Karmic Strike. If the enemy misses you, elusive target grants you a free trip attempt, and Imrproved Trip grants you A free follow up attack. Not that these are defined as "free attacks" NOT AoO's. So if they hit you, you attack, and if they miss you, you attack. Ramses' buld gives you the prerequisites you need for this trick. Note: 9 levels of Weapon Master allow you to do the Whirlwind as a standard action, which means that you can end your move with a whirlwind attack. THIS is what I mean by taking a lot of attacks in the round!
paradoxmage 01-19-05, 01:27 AM	A great Tank: Monk 2nd/Fighter 2nd/Hexblade 3rd/Dervish 8th/Tempest 5th BaB=+19 HD: 2d8+18d10 3 free monk feats and 2 free fighter feats Evasion and mettle Arcane resistance and curse Incredible Two-Weapon fighting abilities (especially if you do Oversized Two-Weapon fighting, you will have no negatives at all) Faster movement +5 to Ac and Wis to AC spring attack and Two-weapon spring attack Saves: 13/11/13 This is a Tank of great ability
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 02:08 AM	Barbarian and Ranger don't provide what Rogue does - 32 points of the best skill list in the game - Tumble, Search w/trapfinding, Spot, Listen, UMD, Bluff, and Sense Motive are all good ones to have at least 5 ranks in and if you can max out UMD/Tumble, a high level Tank becomes significantly more playable - read a scroll of Anti-Magic Field, tumble through the defensive lines, then grapple the enemy lich. If you do this, the lich is screwed. Ranger's list isn't bad, but Tumble and UMD aren't on it and as an 8 Int tank, you don't really have the skill points to make up for it later on. I was comparing a Rogue 1/Fighter 4 to a Fighter 4/Cleric 1. Sure, your Fighter 4/Cleric 2/Pious Templar 2 can qualify to be a Hammer of Moradin - but not with an 8 Int or an 10 Wis. You've got 14 ranks of skills to take. As I can manage to get 4 extra points from dropping Int and Wis by 2 each, I can almost certainly afford to boost Con to 2 higher than what you have. I may have a more difficult time as the party tank at level 1, but that's not worth sacrificing the ability to be a better tank from levels 4+ Diehard is crap for pretty much everyone. Honestly, I'd rather take Toughness twice over Diehard and Endurance. Diehard is just an extra 10 hp that greatly increases the chance of dying outright, lets you wear medium armor when you sleep, and gives a bonus to fort saves that tanks should make automatically. And this is speaking as someone who has never taken Toughness. Finally, anyone who suggests taking Fighter 1/Rogue 1 over Rogue 1/Fighter 1 is just so far outside the CO realm it isn't funny. You've exchanged 2 hp for 24 points of skills on average(10+3.5 hp vs 6+5.5 hp). If your campaign doesn't value 24 points of skills more than 2 hp over the long term, there's something wrong. Power Attack and Cleave don't require +1 BAB and are relatively standard tank feats. If you want lots of skills then take Barbarian or Ranger at level 1. That is the truth. And I wasn't comparing a Rogue 1/Fighter 4 (base 28 hp = 6 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5) to a Fighter 1/Cleric 4 (base 28 hp = 10 + 4.5 + 4.5 + 4.5 + 4.5) which do have the same base hit points (I don't know where you got your numbers from). But 8 hp (1d6+2) is around average damage for a Greatsword (83.3~3% of the time, damage is 8 or more on 2d6+3 damage). So, yeah I think Rogue 1 as a tank is a joke: Light armor, small HD, 0 BAB. And a Fighter 2/Cleric 4/Pious Templar 2 can qualify for Hammer of Moradin. You end up with a character with pretty much only 2.5 skills (k-Religion, Weaponsmithing, and Concentration). I didn't say Diehard is a great feat for everyone, but it could allow a Tank to act when near death to do something to keep from dying. A Barbarian could become "Dying" when it comes out of its rage, so Diehard could be a way to keep that from happening (pop a potion or run away and have someone CmW you). Rogue 1/Fighter 1 is very different than Fighter 1/Rogue 1. Even if you give both max hit points for each hit dice. Feats have requirements. You can't just save Feats and spend them later. Human Fighter 1/Rogue 1 has three feats that he gained at level 1 when his BAB was +1. Rogue 1/Fighter 1 has 3 feats, but 2 were at level 1 when he had a BAB of +0. It isn't just hit points, it is options.
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 02:21 AM	The point of taking Rogue is that you can go non-human with an 8 Int without significant cost. Something pure Fighters or 2 points/level classes can't do. Assuming equal stats, yes, it isn't a great choice. But assuming you can deliberately tank Int and boost Con(aka Dwarf), it works out pretty well. I had this discussion some time ago with Joseph and i must admit that, for a tank, rogue1 is really suboptimal. you want the skills: fine, but what do you do with them? you have to go rogue3 to advance them a bit and every and each fighter-level really bites them. sneak=flank most of the times, means a rogue needs a tank to work.
dawgfan 01-19-05, 03:13 AM	If your going Hammer of Moradin, theres only one way to go and thats Ranger3/Fighter2/Deepwarden2/Pious Templar3/Hammer of Moradin10, great HP, AC, saves, +20 bab, and a whole lotta goodies.
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 03:34 AM	In my opinion a tank could opt for two ways: - Dishing great ammounts of damage. - Controling battle field. If you want to dish ammounts of damage you should go for frenzied berserker, but for the 2nd option you should invest in spiked chain/tripping. I think that a good tank, (not speaking about the obvious Half-ogre spiked chain), would be PsW 8, DpW 2, DwD 10. Deepwarden synergizes very well, besides giving you good saves, that if youīve played a tank know thatīs the basic problem of it. Note: Dwarven Defender requires lawfull, no bardīs or other allowed.
catharz 01-19-05, 03:51 AM	I highly disagree. Unless your planning on continuing in the campaign a fighter is easily the most versatile tank at first level. You have full proficiency and if your a human you have three feats. First level gives you full hit points. So 18 con with +10 to hp is nice, but it can be better. Level 1 Human Fighter 10 (HP)+ 4(Con Score)+3(Toughness)+3(Toughness)+3(Tough ness)=23 HP Im not sure what the requirements for improved toughness are, but if you can afford them at first level that would add +10 each time you take them. Making your total HP 44 (because improved toughness adds an additional HD of your class level). Combine that with a high dex or str and your packing. Barbarian only starts off with 12 (HP)+4(Con)+3(Toughness)+3(Toughness)=22 and with the rage it can be good, but a fighter if played correctly can be much more of a tank. Imagine a lvl 1 fighter with 16 con, 18 dex, and some armor/shield combo that adds 7 to ac. Anyone your fighting would have to roll a natural 20 to hit you unless flat-footed or touched. And at lvl 1 you cant really afford magic items so your doing good. Fighter 1: 10 HP, 8 skill points, Heavy, Light, and Medium armor proficiency, all Martial weapons proficiency, one fighter feat. Barbarian 1: 12 HP, 16 skill points, Light and Medium armor proficiency, Speed +10', Rage. So, in gaining 1 extra HP, you loose half of your skill points, a huge amount of mobility (which is important for a tank), and a good survival (yes, survival) tool 1/day. But you do gain the ability to use heavy armor, which you can't afford and which will slow you down even more. At 2nd level: Barbarian 1/Fighter 1: An average of 17.5 HP, BAB+2, Saves 4/0/0, 18 skill points, ability to use all armor and martial weapons, +10' of speed, Rage, and a bonus fighter feat. Fighter 1/Barbariant 1: An average of 16.5 HP, BAB+2, Saves 4/0/0, 10 skill points, ability to use all armor and martial weapons, +10' of speed, Rage, and a bonus fighter feat. So, the only difference is that the guy who took the 1st level of barbarian first has 1 more HP and 8 more skill points. Another Idea is to be a Hexblade 3/Palidan 2/Fighter 2/Dwarven Defender 6/Devoted Defender 6/ A 1 level dip into some class with good 1st level skills. You have some really nice saves (+2 to all saves for each point of charisma due to Hexblade and Palidan levels), you have DR from Dwarven Defender, you can block attacks from allies with Devoted Defender. You can heal yourself, you take no damage on things that require a will or fortitude save if the damage is halved by a successful save normally. A decent level 1 dip could be into Barbarian, where you can rage and further increase your life. Also, I know this may seem odd, but a nice tank could potentially be a Palidan 2/Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 15. The main stat for all those classes if charisma. Long range and your set. Elf may be of use. You get composite longbow proficiency, which means you can pack a nice punch from far away with spells and if those run out you still have backup. Not to mention your saves will be pretty good due to the Hexblade and Palidan skills. So unless your fighting an archer your in good condition. A paladin that becomes a hexblade looses all paladin abilities. A hexblade that becomes a paladin looses all hexblade abilities except Mettle (unless Mettle is [Su] too).
Ramses III 01-19-05, 04:06 AM	Mommy was an Orc: I can't really recommend Int as a dump stat for tanks, if only because Combat Expertise is not only great in and of itself, but it is a prereq for some really good feats for a tank build -- Improved Trip being the most obvious and mathematically advantageous of those.
Ramses III 01-19-05, 04:11 AM	Fighter 1: 10 HP, 8 skill points, Heavy, Light, and Medium armor proficiency, all Martial weapons proficiency, one fighter feat. Barbarian 1: 12 HP, 16 skill points, Light and Medium armor proficiency, Speed +10', Rage. So, in gaining 1 extra HP, you loose half of your skill points, a huge amount of mobility (which is important for a tank), and a good survival (yes, survival) tool 1/day. But you do gain the ability to use heavy armor, which you can't afford and which will slow you down even more. At 2nd level: Barbarian 1/Fighter 1: An average of 17.5 HP, BAB+2, Saves 4/0/0, 18 skill points, ability to use all armor and martial weapons, +10' of speed, Rage, and a bonus fighter feat. Fighter 1/Barbariant 1: An average of 16.5 HP, BAB+2, Saves 4/0/0, 10 skill points, ability to use all armor and martial weapons, +10' of speed, Rage, and a bonus fighter feat. So, the only difference is that the guy who took the 1st level of barbarian first has 1 more HP and 8 more skill points. A paladin that becomes a hexblade looses all paladin abilities. A hexblade that becomes a paladin looses all hexblade abilities except Mettle (unless Mettle is [Su] too). Catharz, you are right about heavy armor. With my fighter build, I would only use Full Plate until level 5. At level 6 (or as soon as possible after that) with my build you need to get mithral Full Plate in order to be able to use Spring Attack.
Sisyfos 01-19-05, 09:50 AM	Changeling: Paladin-of-freedom4/marshall3/Bard4/Warshaper4 Extra natural armor from alter self never hurts, fast healing, immune to criticals are also good tanking abilities. Good saves is also important.
Khazra Reborn 01-19-05, 11:02 AM	greatest tank Prc ever is Disciple of Disapter IMO....good skills, all good saves, full BaB & i really enjoy rusting grasp...
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 11:59 AM	Sure, Improved Trip is nice - but... Build the following 28 point buy is the following half-orc: Str 19(+1 for level), Dex 14, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6. Rogue 3/Fighter 2. Keep levelling up strength. Now frankly, it looks unplayable in most games - you're going to get the derisive looks from the other players about how you're combat obsessed because you don't do anything outside of combat. That's the problem with putting Ranger(most skills relate directly to before combat) or Barbarian(only 2 skill points per level) in there. The Rogue 3/Fighter 2 will have 38 skill points and an average of 39 hp - a Human Fighter 5 with a 14 Int/Con is only going to have 40 skill points and average 42 hp. You could get the following ranks of skills: Tumbling 8, Jump 5, Intimidate 8, Bluff 5, Spot 7, Sense Motive 5. +14 Intimidate(w/str) and +11 Tumbling in Mithril Breastplate give this character a lot of options - move right up to an Ogre with reach without taking an AoO 85% of the time and then smack 'em. Entertain in a public square by tumbling or play big bad cop to the Social Rogue's good cop. With Tumbling 5 ranks of course, you get a nice bonus when fighting defensively - almost as if you had Combat Expertise... Mommy was an Orc: I can't really recommend Int as a dump stat for tanks, if only because Combat Expertise is not only great in and of itself, but it is a prereq for some really good feats for a tank build -- Improved Trip being the most obvious and mathematically advantageous of those.
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 12:32 PM	That's said, my favorite tank now is Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. The ability of Chameleon to add +4 to a stat means in a hp essential game, they've got more hp than anyone else while doing slightly better damage. In a damage game, they do significantly more damage while being okay in the hp department. And that's before spellcasting, getting that +15 in Tumble or maxxing out UMD...
Sir Gummibaerchen 01-19-05, 01:05 PM	Now frankly, it looks unplayable in most games - you're going to get the derisive looks from the other players about how you're combat obsessed because you don't do anything outside of combat. That's the problem with putting Ranger(most skills relate directly to before combat) or Barbarian(only 2 skill points per level) in there. According to the SRD, barbarians get 4 SP/Level
Kuroi Kenshi 01-19-05, 01:16 PM	I think he was taking into account that with 6 int, you have -2 skills/level, for a net 2 skills/level.
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 01:18 PM	That's said, my favorite tank now is Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. The ability of Chameleon to add +4 to a stat means in a hp essential game, they've got more hp than anyone else while doing slightly better damage. In a damage game, they do significantly more damage while being okay in the hp department. And that's before spellcasting, getting that +15 in Tumble or maxxing out UMD... What about the saves?!
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 01:30 PM	re: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. What about the saves? +19/7/13 + Evasion up to 2/day after a successful save not good enough for you? What about the saves?!
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 01:43 PM	Ranger gets +1 Will Fighter doesnīt get Justiciar gets +5 Will Chameleon gets +2 Will Horizon Walker doesnīt get Exotic Weapon Master doesnīt get Thatīs a grand total of +8 Will save, or am I wrong?
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 02:07 PM	You're forgetting +4 Will from either Arcane or Divine Focus and +4 Fort from Combat Focus. So 'only' +12 before spells such as the 2nd level Bard spell, Heroism, extended with a Rod. At 14th caster level, this will mean nearly 5 hours per casting. And if someone lets you play an Illumian Chameleon with the Aeshkrau, then you get to use Strength for bonus spells instead of Int, giving you a lot more bonus spells to play with as a tank. Ranger gets +1 Will Fighter doesnīt get Justiciar gets +5 Will Chameleon gets +2 Will Horizon Walker doesnīt get Exotic Weapon Master doesnīt get Thatīs a grand total of +8 Will save, or am I wrong?
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 02:10 PM	From my point of view thatīs not a tank character but more a utility one, or if you want a utility tank.
neilthrun 01-19-05, 02:31 PM	I guess I define tank a little differently than the rest of you. Its not about power or skill points. Its about shrugging off lots of damage and controlling the field. That said heres a Survivor Build. Screw BAB. If your not gettting multiple attacks its important to make the most out of the one you have. 1 Fighter 1-Improved Trip,Combat Expertise,Monkey Grip 2 Warlock 1-(Invocation [Hideous Blow]) 3 Fighter 2-Improved Toughness,Knockdown 4 Rouge 1- 5 Survivor 1 6 Survivor 2-Battle Caster 7 Survivor 3 8 Survivor 4 9 Survivor 5-Thick Skinned We'll use a strength of 15 So on a succesfull attack with your large great sword and hideous blow you deal 3d6+1d6+3 for an average damage of 18 damage With an unsuccessfull attack you still deal 1d6 from hideous blow. If you have used knockdown and your opponent is prone you add another 1d6 from your sneak attack. Granted this build only has a bab of +2 at lvl 9, it could be over come through magic items. Hopefully.
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 02:37 PM	How on earth is it not a tank? What basis are you using? Read Chameleon thoroughly before making snap judgements. He will have more hit points on average than an all d12hp build(+4 to Con). He will hit more often than a +20 BAB build who has GWF(+25 total vs +22 total) He will do more damage than a +20 BAB build who has GWS before he decides to Rage without Fatigue. He has +44 total saves before magic items. (edit: particularly in the context that your PsiWar 8/DeepWar 2/DD 10 only has saves of +16/5/12!) From my point of view thatīs not a tank character but more a utility one, or if you want a utility tank.
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 03:14 PM	First, calm down, nobody hereīs trying to prove anything to each other, were just discussing a concept, in this case the tank concept. You're forgetting +4 Will from either Arcane or Divine Focus and +4 Fort from Combat Focus. So 'only' +12 before spells How can you achieve the +12? +4 from arcane Focus, +4 from Divine Focus, and the other +4? I assume youīre saying the +2 base Chameleon plus the +4 on wisdom is that so? Donīt understand me wrong, but the Chameleon is an all rounder jack of all trades, which is good but IMHO itīs not optimized. If you want pure damage go for Frenzied Berserker, something the Chameleon couldnīt even get near. If you want control go Half-Ogre spiked chain for a total of 20" reach, something that canīt be done with the chameleon. Also, the only good synergie I see with the chameleon if you want the tank route, is combat focus and divine focus, because if you want arcane you would incur in arcane spell failure.
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 03:24 PM	Nobody says that build is good, even optimized... That was just an idea no more than that. Iīm just tired of seeing the optimized tanks, so I was trying to build a dwarf concept. Itīs good your concept I donīt say the contrary but since this thread is all about optimized tanks, I say your build (and obviously mine too) arenīt the best you can get, and thatīs what it was asked.
catharz 01-19-05, 03:48 PM	How can you achieve the +12? +4 from arcane Focus, +4 from Divine Focus, and the other +4? I assume youīre saying the +2 base Chameleon plus the +4 on wisdom is that so? 8+4=12 ;) He means total, not in addition to what you said. Donīt understand me wrong, but the Chameleon is an all rounder jack of all trades, which is good but IMHO itīs not optimized. If you want pure damage go for Frenzied Berserker, something the Chameleon couldnīt even get near. If you want control go Half-Ogre spiked chain for a total of 20" reach, something that canīt be done with the chameleon. Also, the only good synergie I see with the chameleon if you want the tank route, is combat focus and divine focus, because if you want arcane you would incur in arcane spell failure. A Frenzied berserker is often as much of a hazard as the enemies it tanks against. IMO FB is good only for Deathless frenzy. A Hunter of evil or Mortalhunter (with DM approval) makes a much better power attacking tank, without the PK hazard. And a chameleon can easily do better than a Half-ogre spiked chain: A chameleon can go War troll spiked chain.
Galbard 01-19-05, 04:08 PM	I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Warforged yet. IMO they're far better tanks than Dwarves at level 1 regardless of class (fullplate with DR 2/adam anybody?). And once the Dwarf has catched up you can get into Warforged Juggernaut. Now if only I could find a tanking class like HoM or DD to take after level 10.
GrolubFranco 01-19-05, 04:11 PM	How can a chameleon polymorph into a war troll? I assume itīs by the spell it self? If it is, itīs passible of a dispell. Where is Hunter of evil or Mortalhunter? Plus, instead youīre quite planning what focus to use with Chameleon and only use those focus, youīre quite a bit dependant on stats arenīt you?
Jeremymc 01-19-05, 04:38 PM	I'm surprised no one's thrown a couple levels of that Dwarven Smith class from Races of Stone into the mix. Squeeze a couple more points of AC out of your character, and add your wisdom bonus to your damage rolls! That's pretty good, if you ask me.
JosephKell 01-19-05, 09:47 PM	There is a great book out called The Power Gamer's Guide to Warriors 3.5. It was written by Green Ronin I think, but it adds no new rules at all and only uses the 3.5 PHB. When I started writing this, I was really focusing more on the core rules (but then I saw the Hammer of Moradin and it has a lot of nice Warhammer things...) And a Fighter spending all its feats on Toughness is little more than a hit point heavy warrior. Toughness is a feat for Wizards and Sorcerers (nearly doubles their starting hit points). Barbarian is a viable first level. Dwarf Barbarian 1 is fine. Barbarians can use Shields, so for level 1 you are looking at a Battle Rager that uses a Waraxe and a Shield. Fighter 1 vs Barbarian 1 is really a personal choice. And unlike Rogue and Cleric, Barbarian has a BAB of +1 per HD, which qualifies it for Weapon Focus. Finally, anyone who suggests taking Fighter 1/Rogue 1 over Rogue 1/Fighter 1 is just so far outside the CO realm it isn't funny.Because you say so? Personally I think people that think Weapon Focus sucks but think a BAB of +16 qualifies a PC as a warrior don't have a clue about how to optimize a warrior. But if you think Dwarf Rogue 1 (with Power Attack and Cleave, and probably using a Morning Star and Studded Leather) can work as a Tank, put it against a Dwarf Fighter 1 with Weapon Focus (Waraxe) and Power Attack (Dwarven Waraxe, Scalemail, Heavy shield). I will be surprised if the Rogue survives.
Mommy was an Orc 01-19-05, 10:07 PM	You posted an idea in this thread with worse saves, hp, damage, less free feats, and a worse 'caster' who has a significant cross-class skill problem to get into Deepwarden(requires a 14 Int to pull off). Then just offhandly said my guy wasn't a tank in your opinion. No explanation other than you apparently thought a base save of +12 was low for a tank. I think my post made perfect sense after that. Without taking into account stats, he will average 142.5 hp where a d12 only build(such as Barbarian 20 for simplicity's sake) will have 135.5. He will be able to Rage 2/day without fatigue for 3 rounds+con. He will get a flurry with a Spiked Chain for 5 attacks at a base of +23/23/18/13/8 taking into account only his BAB, his combat bonus from being a Chameleon, WF, and the Heroism spell. He has a total of +44 to saves. if he gets flanking position or surprise on someone vulnerable to sneak attack, he can do strength damage to them by doing non-lethal damage. His only stat requirement is really so he can go trip build, so a 14 Int. He has 2 fighter bonus feats, a Chameleon feat, Improved Grapple, Track, Endurance, and say Rapid Fire from Ranger. He has +12 to Will Saves, +14 after Extended Heroism. +5 from Justiciar, +1 from Ranger, +2 from Chameleon, +4 from Divine or Arcane Focus. I personally like Arcane Focus better for a +18 BAB - there's enough spells that can be cast without worrying about ASF using a Rod of Lesser Extend Spell outside of combat. That's 3K for 15 hours a day of Heroism. Anothe 3K for 3 more spells - say False Life(for +15 hp), Darkvision, and Iron Silence(for no armor check penalties to Hide/Move Silently) The Chameleon is freakishly optimized unless you decide to unoptimize it. Stealth and Wild Foci are lousy. Combat is always useful and then pick one of two caster choices. Put the attribute bonus on your prime attack stat or on constitution and make sure to have a high enough stat to cast whatever spells you need. As having a 14 in point buy is cheap, just run out and get a +2 Enhancement bonus item. Take 7-10 levels of it and then take 5-8 levels of a Prestige Class(es) you want to emulate. Believe me, you'll thrash a specialist in that Prestige Class if you try. First, calm down, nobody hereīs trying to prove anything to each other, were just discussing a concept, in this case the tank concept. How can you achieve the +12? +4 from arcane Focus, +4 from Divine Focus, and the other +4? I assume youīre saying the +2 base Chameleon plus the +4 on wisdom is that so? Donīt understand me wrong, but the Chameleon is an all rounder jack of all trades, which is good but IMHO itīs not optimized. If you want pure damage go for Frenzied Berserker, something the Chameleon couldnīt even get near. If you want control go Half-Ogre spiked chain for a total of 20" reach, something that canīt be done with the chameleon. Also, the only good synergie I see with the chameleon if you want the tank route, is combat focus and divine focus, because if you want arcane you would incur in arcane spell failure.
ck2001wendt 01-20-05, 01:23 AM	Personally, this is my idea of a Tank. A concept that: 1) Quickly moves ahead of the party to engage the enemy; 2) Can dish out frightening amounts of damage; and 3) Is very hard to disable or kill The Lord of Smack of course also works for these purposes. Attack Routine: 1) In the first round of combat, Pounce into the middle of a dense concentration of opponents. Pick one. 2) Start your full attack. On the 2nd successful claw strike, Rend for (a non-Power Attacking) 8d6+28 damage (if allowed under Feral rules). 3) Continue working on your first opponent until he drops (possibly getting another Rend each two claw strikes). 4) Cleave your way to the next target (going for less heavily armored foes to take advantage of later attacks). A perfectly executed (each claw hits) Attack routine, with no Power Attacks, Frenzy, Wild Shape or additional buffs would do: 28d6+70, with a possible additional 24d6+74 (three Rend attacks), for a cool 194-546 damage. Defense Routine: Between Fast Healing, Wrathful Healing, Diehard, Deathless Frenzy, Immunity to Crits/Sneak Attacks/Stunning and a high 30s AC, enemies will be hard-pressed to do significant damage. A Nature's Berserker buffed against Energy spells and Enchantments will be essentially unkillable. Warning: Yes, it depends on your interpretation of Feral. If you don't believe Feral's abilities increase with character levels, then you get no Pounce, Rake, Rend, your Fast Healing is reduced to 2 and your Darkvision to 60 ft. You still get Pounce as a Druid (3rd level spell), and Wrathful Healing nicely compensates for the lost Fast Healing. It's better to give AND receive. Mineral Warrior is also a good bet. With LA buyoff you won't be too far behind, and I bet you'll be thankful for your DR 8/- more often than you'll miss not having the extra HD. ------------------------------------------- Feral Druid 5/Barb 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Frenzied Berserker 4/Nature’s Warrior 5/Warshaper 2 (LA Buyoff) Atts (with Feral): 28 PB: Str 14 (2) Dex 12 (6) Con 16 (6) Int 10 (6) Wis 16 (6) Cha 10 (2) Boost: Con x5 20th level (with equip): Str 20 Dex 18 Con 36 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 10 HP: Depending on reading of Feral, 19D10+210 (+min 60 from items) or 210+7d8+7d10+5d12+60 1 Ranger [Track] (Power Attack) (Cleave) 2 Druid [Animal Companion] [Nature Sense] [Wild Empathy] 3 Druid (Imp. Nat Attack-Claws 2d6) [Woodland Stride] 4 Druid [Trackless Step] 5 Druid [Resist Nature’s Lure] 6 Druid [Wild Shape 1/day] (Scent) 7 Warshaper [Morphic Weapon-Claws 3d6] [Morphic Immunities-No Crits or Stunning] 8 Warshaper [+4 Str and Con] 9 Barbarian [Spd +10] [Rage 1/day] (Intimidating Rage) 10 Nature’s Warrior [DR 3/-] 11 Fighter (Great Cleave) 12 Fighter (Imp. Crit-Claws) (Destructive Rage) 13 Frenzied Berserker [Diehard] 14 FB [Supreme Cleave] 15 FB (Rapid Strike) 16 FB [Deathless Frenzy] 17 Nature’s Warrior 18 Nature’s Warrior [Nat AC Boost] (Improved Rapid Strike) 19 Nature’s Warrior 20 Nature’s Warrior [+3 Nat Weapon Damage] Epic: Frenzied Berserker BAB: 17 Full Att w. Claws: 21/21/16/11/6/1 (28/28/28/23/18/13/8 when items are added) Dmg: 4d6+10, x2 19-20 Special Features: -Improved Grab on Small creatures -Pounce on 1st Round Charge -Rake on a grab/pounce (1xclaw +1/2 Str) -Rend if both claws hit (2xclaws) -Fast Healing 5 -Darkvision 120 ft. Saves: 34/14/17; admittedly not great DR: 3/- AC: 10 +11 Nat + 7 Armor +5 Deflection +4 Dex = 37 Spd: 50 ft. Caster Level: Druid 7th Equipment: 752,000 Beast Claw Gauntlets (Claws +2, +1d6) (9,160) +3 Necklace of Natural Attacks with Ghost Touch, Speed, Wrathful Healing (200,600) Ritual of Association-Dragon (Savage Species) (56,000) Tome of Con +5 (137,000) Boots of Dex +6 (54,000) Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16,000) +4 Studded Leather (16,000) Ring of Adamantine Touch (120,000) Ring of Protection +5 (50,000) Vest of Resistance +5 (25,000) Belt of Health +6, Giant Strength +4 (60,000) Total: 745,760
GrolubFranco 01-20-05, 02:10 AM	You posted an idea in this thread with worse saves, hp, damage, less free feats, and a worse 'caster' who has a significant cross-class skill problem to get into Deepwarden(requires a 14 Int to pull off). Then just offhandly said my guy wasn't a tank in your opinion. No explanation other than you apparently thought a base save of +12 was low for a tank. I think my post made perfect sense after that. Mommy was an Orc it was you that brought my Deepwarden build into this, not me! What I suggestes was the Half-Ogre build with the spiked chain, and also the frenzied berserker, altough I say the Half-Ogre is better. The deepwarden isnīt a optimized build, but as I said, Iīm just tired of seeing optimized ones, and wished to make something different. But this thread isnīt about this, itīs about purely optimized tanks. Thatīs the reason I suggested Half-Ogre!
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-05, 02:23 AM	That's irrelevant. The point is to build a build that survives well over 1-20. From levels 2-20, you're sacrificing 24 points of skills for 2 hp. You may have an easier time of it at level 1, but you're going to have a significantly worse time of it from levels 2-20. That's just flat out wrong. And given how you badly misplayed the Rogue 1 build, I'd say it likely that you're going to be surprised often. Morning Star is a horrible choice if you can't use a shield. The correct weapon for a Rogue 1 tank is a Longspear(aka reach). If my half-orc up above charges a flat-footed opponent, he typically does an average of 14 hp damage. If he hits an opponent charging him, he does 10.5. Note how both of those kill the average CR 1 opponent. Note that if my half-orc build catches you flat-footed(which is at least a 50% shot), he likely kills you on a charge... But if you think Dwarf Rogue 1 (with Power Attack and Cleave, and probably using a Morning Star and Studded Leather) can work as a Tank, put it against a Dwarf Fighter 1 with Weapon Focus (Waraxe) and Power Attack (Dwarven Waraxe, Scalemail, Heavy shield). I will be surprised if the Rogue survives. I'm not entirely sure even what you're trying to get at down there. Weapon Focus is a lousy feat because it is just +1 with one weapon. If your DM isn't nice to you, you're going to suffer from having to spend money on upgrading your weapon, particularly with an exotic weapon choice. All it takes is the best weapon found not being a dwarven waraxe and you've got a wasted feat. A +16 BAB Chameleon with +6 Strength, +4 to hit/damage on top of that, and the ability to cast Heroism all day is not a typical +16 BAB character. And their extra +9 to hit works with all melee weapons. Because you say so? Personally I think people that think Weapon Focus sucks but think a BAB of +16 qualifies a PC as a warrior don't have a clue about how to optimize a warrior.
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-05, 12:03 PM	These are all quotes from you from this thread from page 2 of this thread...I've bolded the contradictions... I think that a good tank, (not speaking about the obvious Half-ogre spiked chain), would be PsW 8, DpW 2, DwD 10. Deepwarden synergizes very well, besides giving you good saves, that if youīve played a tank know thatīs the basic problem of it. Nobody says that build is good, even optimized... The deepwarden isnīt a optimized build, but as I said, Iīm just tired of seeing optimized ones, and wished to make something different. But this thread isnīt about this, itīs about purely optimized tanks.
GrolubFranco 01-20-05, 02:46 PM	Mommy was an orc, I admire on your persistant way of trying to bug me, but I must say it isnīt working. If you can read well (I supose you can), or maybe not by your nick, youīll see what Iīm saying. Do you understand the meaning of the words "I think"? I think would mean: I supose, it doesnīt mean itīs an absolute truth. Damn, I never even tested the PsyWar build! What I say itīs an absolute truth itīs Half-Ogre spiked chain, itīs commonly known the Ogre build, and I already saw it in action, itīs a real butt-kicking. The Psywar build is in progress of trying to be optimized, that was the all discussion about it (thanks stormwind for all the pacience). Maybe in the end Iīll just trash the build, but hey, optimization is all about a mind puzzle. What I say and keep saying is that for purely min-maxing, the Half-Ogre is the better one. The rest of the guys pardon me the off-topic. Mommy was an orc, youīre not helping anybody with posts like this. Get real!
JosephKell 01-20-05, 04:27 PM	That's irrelevant. The point is to build a build that survives well over 1-20. From levels 2-20, you're sacrificing 24 points of skills for 2 hp. You may have an easier time of it at level 1, but you're going to have a significantly worse time of it from levels 2-20. That's just flat out wrong.If you care about skill points so much, take your first level as Ranger or Barbarian. Ranger has more useful abilities for a Tank at character level (And ECL) 1 than a Rogue. Barbarian is probably just as valid a choice as Fighter. The Rogue is great for Trapfinding, Sneak Attack, and Uncanny Dodge. But the Sneak Attack only matters if there is a dedicated rogue in the party. Why? Because if a party has to dedicate two PCs to attacking one enemy, then it sure be to take that one guy down a lot faster (like in the case of a Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 4 and Rogue 8 attacking the same target). Despite the merits of Trapfinding, ANY PC can find a trap with a Search DC under 20! So that Ranger 1 level with maxed Search, Spot, Listen, Survival, and 2 more can probably find any traps they run into at level 1. And probably still at level 2. So going Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Rogue 1 is probably okay, sure you Will Save is kind of lacking, but you got there.And given how you badly misplayed the Rogue 1 build, I'd say it likely that you're going to be surprised often. Morning Star is a horrible choice if you can't use a shield. The correct weapon for a Rogue 1 tank is a Longspear(aka reach). If my half-orc up above charges a flat-footed opponent, he typically does an average of 14 hp damage. If he hits an opponent charging him, he does 10.5. Note how both of those kill the average CR 1 opponent. Note that if my half-orc build catches you flat-footed(which is at least a 50% shot), he likely kills you on a charge...You are making the Initiative claim. What was the one feat the Half-Orc Rogue had? Is it Power Attack now or Improved Initiative? So you are comparing the 1d8+1d6 during the first round to 2d6 all the time. 1d8+1d6+X... Are you assuming a Strength of 18? What exactly were your stats? A 16 in Strength (with a +2 Half-Orc) on a 28 (or 25) pt buy is gonna hurt else where. A common mistake is to over extend available stats, skills, feats, and spells, I think you are doing that now with your Half-Orc Rogue example. P.S.: Morningstar can be used 1 or 2 handed. Which is why it is such a great secondary weapon and the best one-handed simple weapon (1d8 damage and P or B damage).I'm not entirely sure even what you're trying to get at down there. Weapon Focus is a lousy feat because it is just +1 with one weapon. If your DM isn't nice to you, you're going to suffer from having to spend money on upgrading your weapon, particularly with an exotic weapon choice. All it takes is the best weapon found not being a dwarven waraxe and you've got a wasted feat. A +16 BAB Chameleon with +6 Strength, +4 to hit/damage on top of that, and the ability to cast Heroism all day is not a typical +16 BAB character. And their extra +9 to hit works with all melee weapons.You are just inventing excuses MwaO ("If you DM isn't nice to you" pfft). Weapon Focus is a wonderful feat. Yeah it adds +1 to hit, but the PCs that are going to be taking it are taking it at level 1. I am well aware that people think that the guys who wrote the PHB are on crack because the Barbarian, Fighter, and Paladin all have Weapon Focus in the standard starting package. Me? I think they were right. Lots of +1's add up to a big plus. How hard is it to find a Greatsword, Greataxe, or Halberd? Sure a spiked chain might be rare, but I have found that all the "CO Board sworn by Spiked Chain Tactics" are convoluted! I can either trip the guy, or smash him into a bloody pulp? Which will I choose? +9 to hit? HA! Do you take into account the +3/4 vs +1 BAB of the class? So that is +6. What about the BAB lost getting the skills to take the class probably another +1 or +2. So that is now +5 from Strength, but the PC taking Chameleon was probably a standard rogue that had less strength than a normal Tank so that +5 is probably more like a +2 or +3. So +3. Weapon Focus is +1, Rage is +2 to hit (and later +3). Fighter with Weapon Focus and GWF is +2 to hit and later +2 to hit and +4 damage. Don't try to gloss over the fact that by aiming for +16 BAB at level TWENTY you don't get your 4th attack as soon. A 4th Attack at level 16 or 17 is much different than at level 20. So what does your party do until your "tank" gets to be a big bad Chameleon?"Sorry guys, I won't be a badass sword swinger for another 15 levels, try not to get flatted by that EC 3 human warriors coming around the corner."The key to doing something great is to get into it before you sidetrack yourself. About Diehard. The only time I have made a PC that took Diehard was when I was taking Endurance, had to take Endurance, was given Endurance, or was given Diehard. Endurance is actually a nice feat. It allows a Tank to sleep in Medium Armor! If you have ever played a Tank that got attacked at night while your PC was out of armor, then you know how much it sucks to go from having an AC of like 25-27 (nice full-plate and a shield) to just 14 or 15 (+2 or +3 shield). Yes there are circumstances where taking it is questionable, but some classes (Ranger and Knight of the Crown off the top of my head) that give Endurance or Diehard feat.
GrolubFranco 01-20-05, 05:00 PM	Totally agree! One thing my years of RPG has told me is that you should never optimize a character for just having fun at lvl 10 if youīre starting lvl 1. Who knows if your chracter even survives lvl 10? Sure itīs good and clever to plan a character from lvl 1 till lvl 20, but you should think that you must have fun all the way long, not just from a certain lvl, so sometimes I forfeit some of the optimization for some fun at the starter lvlīs and weapon focus is one of those feats that at latter lvls is useless but itīs darn important in the beginning.
catharz 01-20-05, 05:29 PM	How can a chameleon polymorph into a war troll? I assume itīs by the spell it self? If it is, itīs passible of a dispell. Wow, and if it is dispelled, your opponent just spent an action dispeling you, which may or may nor work: Chameleons get a good caster level. Where is Hunter of evil or Mortalhunter? Search threads by Farkadenear (I think that is how it is spelled) for "stalker of evil." the Hunter (Stalker) of Evil is a build centered around using Favored enemy (Evil) [PGtF or BoED] and the Foehunter [MotW] PrC. Thing like Favored power attack (+ Leap attack), Nemesis, and 11 SR items. My favorite version involves either the Varoot or Kalareem (Nerra) for a near-unbeatable Reflective SR. The Mortalhunter is an evil version using the PrC from BoVD with the same name. Plus, instead youīre quite planning what focus to use with Chameleon and only use those focus, youīre quite a bit dependant on stats arenīt you? Well, it isn't my build, but with a floating +4 to two stats he should do reasonably well.
Dain 01-20-05, 07:41 PM	Well, it isn't my build, but with a floating +4 to two stats he should do reasonably well. Ability Boon is only in one stat. ........................................ ................................... Joseph Kell: While you're right that full BAB classes make for better tanks than any chameleon build in the low levels I don't think that you should underestimate the chameleon's power in levels 10+. Check out a build that I made in this thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=364982). I think that my favorite tank build these days is something along the lines of Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 5/Dwarven Defender 10. Swap 3 levels of Deepwarden with Dwarf Paragon if you're into that whole UA thing. - Dain
catharz 01-20-05, 07:58 PM	Ability Boon is only in one stat. As far as I can tell, select two focuses, gain two "boons." And chameleons don't have to suck at low levels. They have two entry requrements: 1 feat, skills. 1 level can take care of the skills, and is doesn't have to be a weak level (Clr 1?) Other than that you can build the first 5 levels however you like. Unless you think that the loss of 1 feat is going to destroy a Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Cleric 1 (Remember that a lot of builds apparently take Power attack at level 1.)
Ramses III 01-20-05, 11:07 PM	If you can spare the feat and are using a 2-handed weapon, Power Attack at level 1 is pretty good. The +2 to damage is hard to get at that low level through other means, and -1 to hit isn't as big a deal when most of your foes' ACs run the 13-14 range.
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-05, 11:19 PM	Half-Orc Rogue - 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 6 Cha. That's a 28 point buy. As he's a Rogue, he still gets 24 skill points. More than enough to do whatever he needs to do skill-wise. And 1d8+1d6. He's going to take Combat Reflexes - this by the way means even if you get initiative, he's got an extra 3% chance of leaving you dying when you try to close. He's likely to win initiative because he's got a higher Dex than you do. Yes, I know the mental stats are lousy. Big deal - that's where the power of taking Rogue in a tank build comes in as it negates the game mechanic disadvantage of having an abyssmal Int. A Ranger with 16 skill points isn't getting very far and neither is a Barbarian with 8. 6 skills means I can plan to level up 3 main skills and get 3 other minor skills. Say Tumble/Jump, Intimidate/Bluff, and Spot/Search. And again, Morningstar is a lousy weapon for a Rogue. If you're not planning to use a shield, why are you planning on using a 1-handed weapon when you have 2-handed weapons available? Or why not use a 1-handed Rogue weapon such as a Rapier that has a wide crit range. Honestly, a Rogue with a Longspear, Combat Reflexes, and the high strength of a tank build should be able to survive 1st level. People who charge at him are going to get severely hurt or killed most of the time. But let's address the horror that is a Chameleon build in combat. You build it up as you would a normal tank. So you have the same str and con that any other tank has. So as an example, my Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. He's got a +18 BAB(the only -2 is from Chameleon). Justiciar has Bluff and Disguise as a class skill. I ignore the Ranger 2nd level feat and walk around as a tank. I take the exact same stats that you do in attributes and level up the same way. He gets a bonus of +4 to Str and the +4 to hit of combat focus. He casts Extended Heroism all day for an additional +2 to hit, saves, and skills with the Arcane Focus. That's +8 to hit(with 10 levels, that's +9) for an effective total BAB of 24 before feats, 26 after magic. As he takes WF to qualify for EWM, that's a nice 27 vs your mere 22 with WF/GWF. 25 if you don't count magic. Mind you, your Rage isn't a total advantage - I get to do it too, without fatigue, 2/day. As for damage, with a Bastard Sword, my guy does without including the regular strength bonus 1d10+8 where your guy does 1d10. Finally, let me point out that this is an any build type of build. I'd find it fun to play. I'm not building it to take on a Barbarian or Frenzied Berserker build... +9 to hit? HA! Do you take into account the +3/4 vs +1 BAB of the class? So that is +6. What about the BAB lost getting the skills to take the class probably another +1 or +2. So that is now +5 from Strength, but the PC taking Chameleon was probably a standard rogue that had less strength than a normal Tank so that +5 is probably more like a +2 or +3. So +3. Weapon Focus is +1, Rage is +2 to hit (and later +3). Fighter with Weapon Focus and GWF is +2 to hit and later +2 to hit and +4 damage. Don't try to gloss over the fact that by aiming for +16 BAB at level TWENTY you don't get your 4th attack as soon. A 4th Attack at level 16 or 17 is much different than at level 20. So what does your party do until your "tank" gets to be a big bad Chameleon?The key to doing something great is to get into it before you sidetrack yourself.
JosephKell 01-21-05, 02:04 AM	I am not saying the Chameleon is bad. But I was pointing out that MwaO's comment about the Chameleon giving +9 to hit in addition to its BAB +7 is not the whole story. And Catharz, under Double Aptitude it just says choose two Aptitudes, doesn't say anything about double Ability Boon. The only link between Ability Boon and Aptitude is that Ability Boon lasts until you change your Aptitude Focus. That means if a Chameleon starts the day as a Fighter/Cleric, uses up all his all his Cleric spells and switchs the Divine Focus to Arcane Focus, then he can shift that Ability Boon from Wisdom to Intelligence (in order to ensure maximum spells and the ability to cast all of said spells). Yes MwaO, Chameleon is very nice. And how do you figure the "without fatigue" bit? The Mimic Class Feature refers to the features in the PHB, which means Fatigue goes hand in hand with Rage. Or were you also using that Feat in Player's Guide to Faerun that eliminates the Fatigue thing and reduces Exhaustion to Fatigue? And what happened to your trying to use Rogue and Chameleon? And why is Weapon Focus good? Because it adds to all forms of attack: Normal Attack, to try to sunder, trip, disarm... Shoot, to make that Chameleon even stronger (compared to a Fighter or Barbarian or Fighter/Barbarian), why not throw in Weapon Focus? Another +1. But back to the Rogue thing. Your skill point calculate is off by 4. (8+Int Modifier)x4 for your Int of 6 Half-orc is (8-2)x4 or 6x4 which is 24, not 28. The only reason to go Rogue first is if you want to be a Skill Monkey. If you want to be a tank, then step up to the plate and be a tank. A Rogue can wear medium armor and use a shield at level 1, it just means double the check penalties. And just because you find a trap doesn't mean you have to disable it, you could just go around it. And while it makes sense to try and go Longspear, things can get hairy if you have to constantly step back to hit (like in the case of your party being behind you or there being a wall). I think the point of contention is the belief that not having a boat load of skills implies that a PC is worthless out of combat. Fighter is one of the most powerful classes because you pretty much LEAD the party, you are on the frontline, granted you can't pop open a lock or disable a trap. And combat does dominate most of the game (it takes the most time to adjudicate). --------------------------------------- I really want to see some more tanks that don't use Prestige Classes and focus more on the Player's Handbook because some campaigns don't automatically allow prestige classes, and while I know here it is assumed that everything is allowed please assist.
Ramses III 01-21-05, 02:21 AM	I think the point of contention is the belief that not having a boat load of skills implies that a PC is worthless out of combat. Fighter is one of the most powerful classes because you pretty much LEAD the party, you are on the frontline, granted you can't pop open a lock or disable a trap. And combat does dominate most of the game (it takes the most time to adjudicate). Word. Every party that I've played in or DMed for with a fighter in it has been more effective because of the fighter. In the typical campaign, 85-90% of your XP come from combat encounters, sometimes even more than that. Winning fights has been more important by far than out-of-combat skills in every campaign I've played in.
JosephKell 01-21-05, 02:28 AM	--see signature--*cough* new Signature *cough cough*
catharz 01-21-05, 02:35 AM	And Catharz, under Double Aptitude it just says choose two Aptitudes, doesn't say anything about double Ability Boon. The only link between Ability Boon and Aptitude is that Ability Boon lasts until you change your Aptitude Focus. That means if a Chameleon starts the day as a Fighter/Cleric, uses up all his all his Cleric spells and switchs the Divine Focus to Arcane Focus, then he can shift that Ability Boon from Wisdom to Intelligence (in order to ensure maximum spells and the ability to cast all of said spells). I would be wrong, but the wording "When choosing an aptitude focus, you gain a..." and "...you can adopt two aptitude focuses in the same amount of time it previously took for you to adopt one" indicated to me that when you choose two aptitude focuses, you choose two ability scores. So, for example, the chameleon would start with Ftr/Clr and +4 Str and Wis, and then switch to Wiz and +4 Int. Yes MwaO, Chameleon is very nice. And how do you figure the "without fatigue" bit? The Mimic Class Feature refers to the features in the PHB, which means Fatigue goes hand in hand with Rage. Or were you also using that Feat in Player's Guide to Faerun that eliminates the Fatigue thing and reduces Exhaustion to Fatigue? He used Horizon walker.
talion09 01-21-05, 02:39 AM	Word. Every party that I've played in or DMed for with a fighter in it has been more effective because of the fighter. In the typical campaign, 85-90% of your XP come from combat encounters, sometimes even more than that. Winning fights has been more important by far than out-of-combat skills in every campaign I've played in. Plus its is fun to be the one calling the majority of the shots as to where the party goes. (At least in the dungeon-type enviroments) If you are up front, then you typically get to make the choices as to which way to go, just by virtue of being the first one to get to the crossroads. At least that is the way it goes in my typical campaigns, the stealthy types don't range too far ahead of the melee fighters, and the weaker types in the middle and rear follow their meatshield. Of course that means you also get blamed for wrong turns... And the Powergamer's Guide to 3.5 Warriors is a pretty good book, although you could probably get the same resources by searching this board.
Ramses III 01-21-05, 02:55 AM	In keeping with JK's request for focus on the PH, here's my fighter build expanded out to level 20. It's epic-ready on hitting 20; at 21 I would take Dire Charge, and the character qualifies for Legendary Dreadnought at the earliest level possible without sacrificing any Epic feat options. Fighter 20 Race: Human 1 Power Attack, Dodge, Cleave 2 Mobility 3 Combat Expertise 4 Great Cleave 5 6 Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack 7 8 Improved Critical (Scythe) 9 Improved Trip 10 Improved Bull Rush 11 12 Weapon Focus (Scythe), Combat Reflexes 13 14 Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe) 15 Weapon Specialization (Scythe) 16 Greater Weapon Specialization (Scythe) 17 18 Improved Sunder 19 20 Improved Initiative The idea, as I explained before, is the highest number of attacks possible (though to really max this out you might want to take Combat Reflexes at level 9 instead of waiting until 12). The build has good take-down capacity and uses a high crit modifier weapon to capitalize on Cleave and Great Cleave even at higher levels. These feats also let you move and drop multiple opponents early in the game -- I've found that winning at combat in D&D is very much about logistics.
cultjake 01-21-05, 05:06 AM	If you're willing to play Lawful Good, I really like the Fist of Raziel over a cleric base for Tanking.... Human Cleric 3 Paladin 2 Fist of Raziel 10 (any +1 divine caster level to finish) Stats: Wis, Cha, Con, Str, Int, Dex CL1 Practiced Spellcaster, Quicken Spell CL3 Servant of the Heavens CL6 Divine Metamagic Quicken CL9 Extra Turning CL12 Extra Turning CL15 Extra Turning JK said that there were three things for tanking: HP, damage and saves. HP: 3d8 + 12d10 + 15*Con = 116 avg at 15th level Damage: Smites galore from the Fist class, including some goodies Saves: divine grace from the Pally, hard to beat Oh yeah, and as long as you don't drop any more caster levels, this build finishes with 9th level spells and CL20. You can play games with Nightsticks and other stuff, but in general this is a simple, soild Tank build in a good vs. evil setting.
Dain 01-21-05, 08:25 AM	So as an example, my Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. He's got a +18 BAB(the only -2 is from Chameleon). Justiciar has Bluff and Disguise as a class skill. I ignore the Ranger 2nd level feat and walk around as a tank. I take the exact same stats that you do in attributes and level up the same way. He gets a bonus of +4 to Str and the +4 to hit of combat focus. He casts Extended Heroism all day for an additional +2 to hit, saves, and skills with the Arcane Focus. That's +8 to hit(with 10 levels, that's +9) for an effective total BAB of 24 before feats, 26 after magic. As he takes WF to qualify for EWM, that's a nice 27 vs your mere 22 with WF/GWF. 25 if you don't count magic. From level 1 to say... 16 your build will be a bit below the standard tank in most things. It's not like he will be vastly inferior, but he wont be as good in melee as a well built dwarven tank. For example the previously mentioned Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 5/Dwarven Defender 10 (or DW 2/Dwarf Paragon 3 if you use UA). - Dain
GrolubFranco 01-21-05, 09:21 AM	I agree Dain. The problem with the deepwarden build is basically functionality. In my opinion, Dwarven Defenderīs Defender Stance isnīt that good unless it has any kind of reach to compensate the lack of mobility. All of us agree that a 10" reach isnīt a big deal, but if you can get 20" thatīs already very acceptable, and with that build you can never raise your reach. That was why I tried to fit in Psychic Warrior since it has expansion, but youīll have problems for multiclassing. You could go cleric, but youīd only have one enlarge per day, not big deal. Also, you can go duergar and begin with an augmented expansion.
ninjarabbit 01-21-05, 09:38 AM	I think one of the best weapons for a defensive stance is a composite longbow. One of my favorite tank builds is paladin5/fighter4/exoticweaponmaster1/dwarvendefender10 It works best with a gold dwarf but a regular dwarf works okay too. This build gives a little bit of everything. You get extra damage output from power attack, weapon specialization dwarven waraxe, uncanny blow, smite, and divine might. You get extra AC from dodge and dwarven defender. You get extra hps from toughness (try to talk your DM into letting improved toughness be swapped for toughness for DD), the d12's from DD, and the +2 con from a dwarf. You get good saves from divine grace and dwarven racial abilities. The only non-core book it uses is Complete Warrior so the DM can't complain too much. As a bonus you even get minor healing abilites and the ability to use a wand of cure x wounds.
Jeremymc 01-21-05, 09:54 AM	Hmm... Does that bow build get Aoo's with the Longbow? I know Exotic Weapon Master can give some funky bonuses, but is that one of them? Frankly - for a tank, you'll want the ability to hold people back, away from your lightly armoured and melee-defenseless spellcasters. For this, JK is right, you'll need HP, saves and AC, as well as AOOs, and melee power. It's all well and good to dire charge up to someone and full attack them, but you turn around next round to find that your Wizard has been 'rended' into corned beef hash by 6 War Trolls. A good tank won't overpower his opponent on teh first round, like the FB, because he knows he'll be swarmed next round. I've seen way too many barbarian builds get massacred in the enemy phase of combat to be impressed with them. Try this build: Dwarf Cleric 3 - spells, buncha stuff Dwarven Paladin 2 - divine grace Dwarven Faith Scion 10 - some ungodly Con bonus (I don't recally, but might be +10), + to craft skills, very powerful adamantitie artifact weapon - UNsunderable. FULL SPELLCASTING PROGRESSION. Noice class. Deepwarden 2 - con to AC. (I thnk they get it at 2) Weaponsmith 3 - Wis to hammer damage bonus. Armour Bonus. I think that should turn out okay. I'm not looking at the books, so I may be unsure of the Faith Scion pre-reqs. I seem to recall being able to access the class at 5, but I don't know for sure. The advantages of this are the obvious con bonus, the full spellcasting and the very powerful weapon, and your saves should all be quite good (with a reasonable charisma score). With luck, you should be able to sunder an enemy weapon with at least the second attack, if not your first. It doesn't provide the intense defensive benefits of the Defender, but it provides some not bad defense itself. + the cool wisdom to hammer damage bonus from the Dwarve smith class. Not too shabby. The other intangible benefit to this class is that with your craft skill, and a suitable dwarven forge, you can make assorted wondrous items to increase your resilience. Rings of elemental resistance, rings of protection, rings of resistance, etc..
JosephKell 01-21-05, 02:53 PM	JK said that there were three things for tanking: HP, damage and saves.2 things: Offense and Defense (survivability). It just happens that those each break down into "To Hit and Damage" and "Hit Points (ability to soak damage), AC/Saves (ability to avoid damage), and healing (ability to undo damage)." But that is splitting hairs. I just don't like Crit Monkeys. That said, in 3.5 Criting is much easier (even in RPGA play--you can take feats in one of the Complete books once you get to CLVL 3). Power Critical adds 4 to your roll to confirm a critical (and it can be taken multiple times for the same weapon). Honestly, for a Critter (no pun intended) I would probably still go with a Greatsword (or Falchion). Consistant Damage is more important than that occassional "Ka-POW!" Although the Greataxe can be a ton of fun if your DM uses certain crit rules (my first 3.5 adventure, the DM had it so that on a crit, the added damage was maximized so a Critical Greataxe attack was 1d12 + 24 + 3*(1.5* Str mod)). And the PG'sG2W is not the stuff you can find on this board. If you look at the board, they all practically run perpendicular to that book. That book says that Rogue should not be the first level of a Warrior PC (that book assumes you are only using the 3.5 PHB and that you are starting at level 1). The CO Regulars (who I don't count myself among--long story) say that Rogue should be first because of all the skill points. Also, the book has a comparison of all the Martial weapons in the PHB comparing them by cost and damage (including criticals and special abilities). It also has comparative tables for understanding just how much Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rage, Flurry of Blows, etc. A lot of the tables in it are so hard to calculate that the ones you see on message boards tend to be fudged and take into certain assumptions that skew the results. ======================================== === Multiclassing. Putting aside multiclass penalties, it is hard to multiclass at low levels for Warriors, you tend to get insane Fort Saves, but your Will Save has the tenacity of tissue paper. I was thinking Ranger 1/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2, but you'll notice not a single one of them gets to level 3 where they finally get +1 Will. But then the only reason to go Ranger 1 was for Track and the 2 skill points over Barbarian, so perhaps Barbarian 3/Fighter 2 is better? Then you have a +1 all the time and a +3 while raging. More later. -Jonathan
Funny Slaughter 01-21-05, 07:01 PM	The CO Regulars (who I don't count myself among--long story) say[...] still ****** about me not inviting you in the first recruiting attempt for our mailing list? phew...
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-21-05, 09:13 PM	Just curious as to what people think of a priority of mobility for a tank? In this context "mobility" includes things like having limited mobility in movement speed (20ft move due to being small or medium or heavy armor and the x3 run multiplier for heavy armor), Tumble, Climb, Jump and maybe even Balance. Getting around the battlefield as a whole. I have seen several encounters where a tank was effectively useless because he couldn't be where he needed to be. In these situations a Monk, Swashbuckler or Ranger, with less AC/HP, served the group better as tank in these situations just because they were able to be where they needed to be, while the full plate Fighter was a few rounds behind us. So... Is mobility a critical part for a "Tank" or is it a job reserved for "secondary tank" classes?
ck2001wendt 01-21-05, 09:32 PM	Mobility (in addition to a great Con score) is supposed to be part of what makes Dwarves so good as tanks...no penalty speed for wearing heavy armor. Sturdy b*****ds. For my money, I still maintain that Feral with LA buyoff is the perfect Tank template; +6 to Natural Armor, Fast Healing 2, +10 Spd and Str and Con boosts. And that's the most conservative interpretation. Mineral Warrior would have to be a good second. Funny Slaughter's combo of Feral and Mineral Warrior doesn't hurt either (and can be bought off).
Psifon 01-21-05, 09:41 PM	And the PG'sG2W is not the stuff you can find on this board. If you look at the board, they all practically run perpendicular to that book. That book says that Rogue should not be the first level of a Warrior PC (that book assumes you are only using the 3.5 PHB and that you are starting at level 1). The CO Regulars (who I don't count myself among--long story) say that Rogue should be first because of all the skill points. Also, the book has a comparison of all the Martial weapons in the PHB comparing them by cost and damage (including criticals and special abilities). It also has comparative tables for understanding just how much Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rage, Flurry of Blows, etc. A lot of the tables in it are so hard to calculate that the ones you see on message boards tend to be fudged and take into certain assumptions that skew the results. What is the PG'sG2W? What is the book to which you are referring?
JosephKell 01-21-05, 10:30 PM	What is the PG'sG2W? What is the book to which you are referring?Power Gamer's Guide to Warriors 3.5. It has no new rules in it. It is basically a primer to focusing the stuff in the 3.5 PHB.
JosephKell 01-21-05, 10:32 PM	Mobility isn't that important. You can't move and full round attack in most cases.
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-05, 10:51 PM	Horizon Walker, desert. Immune to Fatigue. My build has WF - required for Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow. And I haven't edited that half-orc post and it says 24 skill points up there...he's a 28 point buy for stats, despite having an 18 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Dex and having useful skills. I value a +1, I just don't really value a +1 with a single weapon highly unless there's some massive payoff such as EWM's ability to double strength damage. And for the people devaluing the value of skills, skills are not just useful out of combat, they're useful in combat/prior to combat. Tumble means not taking AoOs when trying to attack creatures with reach. Spot/Listen means you're not surprised as much, meaning you get to act first more. UMD means you can read a scroll of Anti-Magic Field eventually and go to town on that evil Druid by grappling him. Anyone who says Druids always rule at high levels haven't generally seen the look their Druid's face has when the Half-Orc kills all their defenses, puts them down to an 8 strength vs 28 and Improved Grapple, pins them to the ground, and starts turning them into shishkabob with sneak attacks - remember, competency items for the UMD check work until the Anti-Magic Field goes up... Oh, and then the Sneak Attack dice penetrate the Fortification Armor :) Yes MwaO, Chameleon is very nice. And how do you figure the "without fatigue" bit? The Mimic Class Feature refers to the features in the PHB, which means Fatigue goes hand in hand with Rage. And why is Weapon Focus good? Because it adds to all forms of attack: Normal Attack, to try to sunder, trip, disarm... Shoot, to make that Chameleon even stronger (compared to a Fighter or Barbarian or Fighter/Barbarian), why not throw in Weapon Focus? Another +1. But back to the Rogue thing. Your skill point calculate is off by 4. (8+Int Modifier)x4 for your Int of 6 Half-orc is (8-2)x4 or 6x4 which is 24, not 28. The only reason to go Rogue first is if you want to be a Skill Monkey. If you want to be a tank, then step up to the plate and be a tank. A Rogue can wear medium armor and use a shield at level 1, it just means double the check penalties. And just because you find a trap doesn't mean you have to disable it, you could just go around it. And while it makes sense to try and go Longspear, things can get hairy if you have to constantly step back to hit (like in the case of your party being behind you or there being a wall).
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-05, 11:05 PM	People keep saying that they'll be inferior builds. Show some numbers, please... The ability to put +4 to hit/damage and +4 to Strength is really difficult to overcome in most PrCs. Even with a +2 BAB loss. The way I look at it, he's very likely to have similar stats across the board to your Dwarf at level 14 without casting spells. Better damage, slightly worse saves. From level 1 to say... 16 your build will be a bit below the standard tank in most things. It's not like he will be vastly inferior, but he wont be as good in melee as a well built dwarven tank. For example the previously mentioned Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 5/Dwarven Defender 10 (or DW 2/Dwarf Paragon 3 if you use UA). - Dain
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-22-05, 12:19 AM	Mobility (in addition to a great Con score) is supposed to be part of what makes Dwarves so good as tanks...no penalty speed for wearing heavy armor. I'll agree it is a great advantage for being a Dwarf but a human in full plate and a dwarf in full plate have the same movment, sure, you don't drop to a 15, but you're still a 20.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-22-05, 12:24 AM	Mobility isn't that important. You can't move and full round attack in most cases. But you can neither "tank" nor deal damage if you are being constantly outmanuvered or can't get to where you need to be in a timley manner. Maybe it's a personal thing, some people have all their fights in 10x10 to 30x30 rooms so movment isn't a factor. I have fights in enviornments with lots of area, multiple levels of elevation, water and other terrain considerations.
JosephKell 01-22-05, 12:35 AM	The PG'sG2W3.5 also has a list of Warrior Archetypes: Archer, Cavalry, Guerrilla, Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, and Skirmishers. Tanks are Heavy Infantry. Also, a Dwarf, Human, and Half-Orc in Heavy Armor can all move 60 ft in a round by running (20 ft x3). In medium Armor they can move 80 ft. Remember, while running you lose your Dexterity modifier to AC (if positive). If your campaign has a lot of long distances in combat, consider taking the Run feat. I've seen a Barbarian cover the entire field of combat (about 160 ft) to beat the crud out of an Archer.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-22-05, 01:10 AM	Tanks are Heavy Infantry. Ah, Ok, when you put it that way I better understand what you are going towards. Yes, I suppose mobility isn't very important for "Heavy Infantry", fair enough. I see a "tank" as whatever a group has as it's most defensive-oriented character (which could be a Ranger in a Ranger-Bard-Wizard-Sorcerer group for example but wouldn't be the Ranger in a Ranger-Fighter-Paladin-Cleric group). With these things in mind it would adjust my question to: "Is a Heavy Infantry-type character the best 'tank' for a group due to their mobility limitations?". Which is probably outside the scope of this thread as it is focused on building the best "Heavy Infantry" type tank.
cultjake 01-22-05, 03:28 AM	Mobility is an issue for tanks, no doubt. But there are many magic items that can add mobility; eg Helm o' Teleport. Another reason why I favor the cleric (or druid) as the Tank is the Resurrection angle. As long as your party doesn't suffer a TPK, the most likely character to survive is also the one with the power to restore/resuscitate/resurrect the rest of the party. I've been the last man standing before.......
Ramses III 01-22-05, 05:24 AM	A great way to handle the mobility issue is to take at least one level of Barbarian, and wear mithral full plate. You get the AC benefit of heavy armor, but you still get a 30' movement rate. Even for the Fighter 20 build I presented several posts back, I would use mithral full plate after level 5 so I could use Spring Attack. Logistics are still important for tanks, and you can use good movement options to maximize your party's damage and take down more enemies per roud if you play it right -- especially if paired with a good sneak attacker.
Dain 01-22-05, 07:34 AM	People keep saying that they'll be inferior builds. Show some numbers, please... The ability to put +4 to hit/damage and +4 to Strength is really difficult to overcome in most PrCs. Even with a +2 BAB loss. The way I look at it, he's very likely to have similar stats across the board to your Dwarf at level 14 without casting spells. Better damage, slightly worse saves. I assumed that your build would be built as you wrote it: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. And building it that way you would enter chameleon 5 by CL 16. Chameleon 5 is the turning point in the class, as you well know. And until then, you will be slightly inferior. If you want the numbers, I'll be happy to bring em to you. (although I'm going skiing in Norway for the next week :)). Even the chameleon builds that get into Cham ASAP don't shine in melee until CL 10+ .
ck2001wendt 01-22-05, 08:34 AM	Mobility is an issue for tanks, no doubt. But there are many magic items that can add mobility; eg Helm o' Teleport. Another reason why I favor the cleric (or druid) as the Tank is the Resurrection angle. As long as your party doesn't suffer a TPK, the most likely character to survive is also the one with the power to restore/resuscitate/resurrect the rest of the party. I've been the last man standing before....... I'd disagree with that assessment. In every game I've played, we keep a backup healer, and it's usually either a Wizard or Rogue (ie a mobility Rogue with Revivify in a Ring of Spell Storing, or a Bard w. a CLW wand). In BBEG or extended battles, the person spends the most time physically engaging the enemy (ie the Tank) is generally the first to go, or if no one dies the most likely to get into a close call (less than 25% HP or dying). The reason: the most optimized or seemingly dangerous characters are generally targeted first, not only by a number of melee attackers but by repeated magical assaults. The Tank that get in there and actually has an effect is quickly dogpiled. The Wizards generally buff themselves against physical attacks, and the Rogues (when played smart) rarely get injured by picking their spots. But no matter how competent the person playing the Tank, their character takes a serious HP hit in each encounter we can't resolve within two-three rounds.
JosephKell 01-22-05, 02:28 PM	A great way to handle the mobility issue is to take at least one level of Barbarian, and wear mithral full plate. You get the AC benefit of heavy armor, but you still get a 30' movement rate. Even for the Fighter 20 build I presented several posts back, I would use mithral full plate after level 5 so I could use Spring Attack. Logistics are still important for tanks, and you can use good movement options to maximize your party's damage and take down more enemies per roud if you play it right -- especially if paired with a good sneak attacker.Spring Attack isn't very good for Fighters. The idea is to do a FULL Round attack. If you are just doing one attack per round, you aren't as effective. Spring Attack can be a way to get in close (without provoking an AoO, you could just stop 10 feet away so they have to move far enough that they can't full-round attack back at you before you can (they might make a charge attack, but one charge is better than 2 or 3 possible hits). If you want to be highly mobile, perhaps Monk 11/Dervish 9 (+45 ft ground speed, 75 or 65 ft speed means you can move 35 ft--minimum--and still have enough movement left to make 6 attacks Or you can ignore the +7 and +2 and move 45 feet) might be what you want: +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 (1d10 unarmed, 1d6+5 Kama during a Dance at level clvl 20). Combat Expertise is expensive though, but Dodge, Mobility and Weapon Focus (Kama) are pretty easy. Unfortunately you can't fit in both Thousand Cuts and Greater Flurry, and Greater Flurry is better (it is all day). The goal for a TANK is to make every attack they can during a round. Guerrillas and Skirmishers are the mobile warriors. Heavy Infantry/Tanks need to deal as much damage as possible. That means making as many attacks as possible. So Spring Attack is not a good Tank feat (it is more for Comabtive Rogues who are better off making one Flank Attack then avoiding reprisal).
Ramses III 01-22-05, 05:17 PM	True, but Whirlwind Attack is a good feat for tanks, it requires Spring Attack, and I have been in situations where it's more effective for the tank to make one attack and then end his action in a different position, i.e. to set the rogue up for SA. I played a sneak attacker in a combat-maximized party that used tactics like this a lot. The tank and the SAer were built to work together in combat; we took Dual Strike from Sword and Fist -- the one that makes your flanking bonus together +4 -- so the tank had a good cushion for Power Attack, and I rarely missed my sneak attacks (until our DM started giving all the enemies epic AC and disintigrating their gear when we killed them, but that's another story). Edit: Also, Spring Attack can be good for a fighter who's up against a number of spread-out soft targets that he can one-shot.
Mommy was an Orc 01-22-05, 05:39 PM	Generally you state the build as it is, not necessarily the levels in order, but the entry points. You start Chameleon with level 8. Can't make level 7 without either a 16 Int or a 14 Int+Nymph's Kiss. You could sneak Horizon Walker or EWM in at level 7,though and I'd probably do that. Level 5 of chameleon pops up at level 12 and definitely does improve the build. But... You're really underestimating what someone gets from levels 1-4. +2 hit/damage at the cost of +1 BAB in this build means 1 level of Chameleon is essentially getting WF/WS in all weapons at little cost. The remaining abilities from 2-4 are pretty good as well. I assumed that your build would be built as you wrote it: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Justiciar 6/Chameleon 7/Horizon Walker 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1. And building it that way you would enter chameleon 5 by CL 16. Chameleon 5 is the turning point in the class, as you well know. And until then, you will be slightly inferior. If you want the numbers, I'll be happy to bring em to you. (although I'm going skiing in Norway for the next week :)). Even the chameleon builds that get into Cham ASAP don't shine in melee until CL 10+ .
JosephKell 01-22-05, 06:17 PM	Well if you are taking Spring Attack to get Whirlwind Attack, that is a different story. But a Fighter - Sneak Attacker Combo sounds a lot more like a Guerrilla than a Tank. This doesn't invalidate what you said, it just serves to point out a comparison akin to apples (Tanks) and oranges (Guerrillas). Guerrillas that aim to act first (to get in position so that the Sneak Attacker can be in flanking position at the end of its movement) should probably have Improved Initiative. But the problem with Spring Attack (for the first PC to move into position) is that you can't wait to finish your movement after your ally acts. No matter what, one of the flankers will be next to the target at the end of the round (this isn't to say the target is still standing and able to fight).
GrolubFranco 01-22-05, 07:11 PM	My definition of tank hasnīt to do with mobiliy, more as a tripper and a good constitution guy, so he can hold the monsters.
catharz 01-22-05, 08:47 PM	Yay, lets all have fun with semantics! Tank, Primary caster, and S/S/SC (Skills/Support/Secondary Caster) are good enough for me.
Ramses III 01-22-05, 09:43 PM	Well if you are taking Spring Attack to get Whirlwind Attack, that is a different story. But a Fighter - Sneak Attacker Combo sounds a lot more like a Guerrilla than a Tank. This doesn't invalidate what you said, it just serves to point out a comparison akin to apples (Tanks) and oranges (Guerrillas). Guerrillas that aim to act first (to get in position so that the Sneak Attacker can be in flanking position at the end of its movement) should probably have Improved Initiative. But the problem with Spring Attack (for the first PC to move into position) is that you can't wait to finish your movement after your ally acts. No matter what, one of the flankers will be next to the target at the end of the round (this isn't to say the target is still standing and able to fight). Oh, this character was definitely a tank. The build we did was based on massive damage on both sides -- from Power Attack and TWF on his (this was back in the 3.0 days) and from SA on mine. Our battles were all about fast takedowns; we'd usually drop multiple combatants per round, so full attacks were moot.
Jeremymc 01-22-05, 10:23 PM	But that's not a TANK. A tank is not a massive damage /1st round fighter!! A tank is the sturdy, unbreakable fighter that wears down his enemies through his utter invulnerability. Sure, it's as simple as frikkin pie to build a massive damage creature. FB/Primaeval... simple. But silly and pointless. You do your massive damage in teh first round, drop two enemies, and are swarmed and killed at the end of that turn. THAT'S the reason most melee players die so so so quickly, and why my cleric always has to run in, incur the Aoo and heal some schmoe fighter who can't keep himself alive for more than ONE round! I can tool up a Dwarven Defender character who even without a ring of blinking, will be all but unbeatable, and would negate at least 12 points of every physical attack (more if I take the Savage Species feat. More if I work in a level of Nature's Warrior - tough, but do-able.). And let's say I have an AC of... I dunno... 60. Your FB has a total + to attack while charging/frenzied of +50 (these are example numbers, not meant to reflect reality. Both numbers can be tooled up more than this). Sure, you're likely to hit on your first and second attacks, but after that... probably not. And then on my turn, I hit your lower armour class 4 times out of 4... Who does more damage? Over a couple of rounds, probably the tank by just a slim little bit...
GrolubFranco 01-22-05, 10:24 PM	Ok, Iīve came up with this: Race: Dwarf 01š Rng 1 02š Rng 1 / Ftr 1 03š Rng 1 / Ftr 2 04š Rng 1 / Ftr 3 05š Rng 1 / Ftr 3 / Wiz 1 06š Rng 1 / Ftr 3 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 07š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 08š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 / DpW 1 09š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 / DpW 2 10š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 / DpW 2 / DwD 1 11š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 1 / DpW 2 / DwD 2 12š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 2 13š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 3 14š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 4 15š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 5 16š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 6 17š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 7 18š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 8 19š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 9 20š Rng 1 / Ftr 4 / Wiz 1 / RnS 2 / DpW 2 / DwD 10 Figt - Fighter Rng - Ranger DpW - DeepWarden DwD - Dwarven Defender Wiz - Wizard RnS - RuneSmith Feats: EWP(Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike. Bab +18 Final saves with dwarf trait: FOR:21 REF:8 WIL:18 Will cast enlarge 2 times per day without bonus intelligence. and any other spell of 2nd lvl. Will be a worty tripper by lvl 3. Will have a familiar to boost a save (REF probably), Lots of AC and CON. I think itīs the best option comparing to the Psychic version.
JosephKell 01-22-05, 10:58 PM	Who does more damage? Over a couple of rounds, probably the tank by just a slim little bit...Uh, a slim little bit? 2 attacks that have a solid chance of hitting, a 3rd attack that might hit, and a 4th that can only hit on a crit for 2d6+7 damage each (that is probably low) is a lot better than one spring attack for 2d6+14. And a Tank provides just as good flanking ability as a guy that constant moves around. So that isn't a valid argument. There has to be a good reason if a Warrior isn't going to stand and Full Round Attack.
Funny Slaughter 01-22-05, 11:33 PM	the tank is the one standing on the other side of the rogues opponent when he spring-attacks for loads of sneak-dice. as a tank you have to control the battlefield, spring attack is a diametral concept as you leave the opponent all place to move. the spring attacker is the one who needs the tank to hold the enemy in place. given an extreme situation it would be totally ok for a tank to fight defensively and being all bullwark and the nimble rogue being the one providing the damage with spring attack. the key is that the enemy can not hit the tank (too high AC) and can not go after the rogue (draws AoO, get tripped eventually etc pp). the tank is also needed to protect the wizard (et al) just by standing between the enemy and him. i think a dwarf in fullplate is agile enough to make tactical manoeuvers, you can hardly combine he needed qualities of a tank with fast movement. building fancy builds with loads of PrCs and special abilities does in no way influence the basics of a tank and in think JosephKell is on the right track with his definition even with some of his opinions being more influenced by RPGA then mine. gs Funny
Jeremymc 01-23-05, 12:11 AM	Uh, a slim little bit? 2 attacks that have a solid chance of hitting, a 3rd attack that might hit, and a 4th that can only hit on a crit for 2d6+7 damage each (that is probably low) is a lot better than one spring attack for 2d6+14. And a Tank provides just as good flanking ability as a guy that constant moves around. So that isn't a valid argument. There has to be a good reason if a Warrior isn't going to stand and Full Round Attack. Yes... umm *atchoo* *cough* *sarcasm* *cough* *sneeze* *vomit*. ;)
JosephKell 01-23-05, 12:36 AM	Yes... umm *atchoo* *cough* *sarcasm* *cough* *sneeze* *vomit*. ;)I can think of only one: When taking the hit would get you killed. But that would only be like if not having cover would kill you (like a pair of dragons are about to both breath weapon you)... But I doubt you can move far enough in a round to get out from cover, melee attack, and back to cover... Now if it was someone using Shot on the Run... I can see this whole cover->attack->cover thing.
neilthrun 01-23-05, 04:25 PM	Honestly I dont like the idea of 1st level rouge for a tank. It really limits your choices because of 0 bab for feats, and your bonus feat if human. What does a tank need skill points for? Tumble? asuming your second level will be in fighter your armor check penalty from heavy or medium armor will make tumbling pointless. Maybe jump if you want to grab some leap attack-esque feats. Intimdate might be worth it. But probably not. I really think if you really want skill points, for prcs or something,ranger or barbarian would help more. And it wouldnt mess up your BAB.
Mommy was an Orc 01-23-05, 04:58 PM	A 3rd level character who happens to have 5 ranks of Jump, 6 ranks in Tumble, a 12 Dex, and has a -5 due to Armor check penalty still makes a basic Tumble roll 50% of the time. And there's no penalty for failure other than slowed movement. Also, having 5 ranks of Tumble means a slightly better fighting defensively ability and the ability to fall without as much damage. Tumble? asuming your second level will be in fighter your armor check penalty from heavy or medium armor will make tumbling pointless.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-23-05, 07:21 PM	A 3rd level character who happens to have 5 ranks of Jump, 6 ranks in Tumble, a 12 Dex, and has a -5 due to Armor check penalty still makes a basic Tumble roll 50% of the time. And there's no penalty for failure other than slowed movement. Also, having 5 ranks of Tumble means a slightly better fighting defensively ability and the ability to fall without as much damage. This only works as a Dwarf keep in mind (you can't tumble if your move is reduced).
Mommy was an Orc 01-23-05, 10:37 PM	True. :embarrass Was looking at the armor check penalty statement, not the skill. I'm very into Mithril Breastplate in any case, so it doesn't matter for me, but for the plate armor types out there, it does... This only works as a Dwarf keep in mind (you can't tumble if your move is reduced).
neilthrun 01-24-05, 12:29 AM	A 3rd level character who happens to have 5 ranks of Jump, 6 ranks in Tumble, a 12 Dex, and has a -5 due to Armor check penalty still makes a basic Tumble roll 50% of the time. And there's no penalty for failure other than slowed movement. Also, having 5 ranks of Tumble means a slightly better fighting defensively ability and the ability to fall without as much damage. I guess my "tank" would probably have an armor check penalty greater than -5. What is the penalty for battle plate -10? another -4 for tower shield? correct me if those are wrong. Theyre off the top of my head. Even then I dont like the idea of a tank tumbling. think about an actual tank. the kinds with rockets and large machines guns with treads. Theyre about have lots of armor. Not being able to fall 50 feet, fly or balance on tight ropes. Rouge get 24 skill points at first level, pending intelegence bonus/penalty. At first level what 6 skills need to be maxed out? By previous accounts people want tumble and balance. Use magic device? if you do continue in rouge thats a good idea. but buying the cross class ranks in fighter, barbarian or paladian starts to really drain your skill points if you want UMD at a reasonable and usefull level. Maybe spot or listen. But since your the parties TANK, i dont see why your the one doing the scouting. So where do the other 16 points go?
neilthrun 01-24-05, 12:30 AM	A 3rd level character who happens to have 5 ranks of Jump, 6 ranks in Tumble, a 12 Dex, and has a -5 due to Armor check penalty still makes a basic Tumble roll 50% of the time. And there's no penalty for failure other than slowed movement. Also, having 5 ranks of Tumble means a slightly better fighting defensively ability and the ability to fall without as much damage. I guess my "tank" would probably have an armor check penalty greater than -5. What is the penalty for battle plate -10? another -4 for tower shield? correct me if those are wrong. Theyre off the top of my head. Even then I dont like the idea of a tank tumbling. think about an actual tank. the kinds with rockets and large machines guns with treads. Theyre about have lots of armor. Not being able to fall 50 feet, fly or balance on tight ropes. Rouge get 24 skill points at first level, pending intelegence bonus/penalty. At first level what 6 skills need to be maxed out? By previous accounts people want tumble and balance. Use magic device? if you do continue in rouge thats a good idea. but buying the cross class ranks in fighter, barbarian or paladian starts to really drain your skill points if you want UMD at a reasonable and usefull level. Maybe spot or listen. But since your the parties TANK, i dont see why your the one doing the scouting. So where do the other 16 points go?
Jeremymc 01-24-05, 12:37 AM	I can think of only one: When taking the hit would get you killed. But that would only be like if not having cover would kill you (like a pair of dragons are about to both breath weapon you)... But I doubt you can move far enough in a round to get out from cover, melee attack, and back to cover... Now if it was someone using Shot on the Run... I can see this whole cover->attack->cover thing. Hmm?? I didn't comment about running for cover?? :confused: I don't get it. Anyhow... for the rest: umm... a tank by definition won't be using much tumble, and thus, won't really care whether he tumbles much or not (besides, with Dwarfcraft heavy armour, and Heavy armour optimization, your Dex modifier should still be mildly in the positive, which is good for a fighter whose primary skills are STR and CON). When you think of the word TANK, you think: 1) HEAVY ARMOUR. 2) POWERFUL WEAPON. ***In that order. *** If you wanted to call your character "all-purpose-mobile-tactical-maneuverable-battlefield-striking-unit", then sure. Go and tumble with a piddly Mithril Breastplate. And if you want to call your character "vulnerable howitzer", then make him a warforged FB build. But if you want to call your character a TANK, then make him a TANK. Don't say things like "what about making a flying, jumping tank of style and finesse", because you can't tank up a swashbuckler. Honestly. The thread is "building a better tank". So we should comment on the character archetype being proposed, and not on the rosy paths untrodden. Frankly, if I were a tank, I'd tank up a Dwarven defender with Quick Draw, a sack full of Throwing Hammers and the "Brutal Throw" feat. Take a Defensive stance with a Dancing Tower Shield, and throw every round for a full attack until the enemy had to come in close just to get rid of me. And if I knew I were fighting Giants and Dragons, I'd take a level in Exotic Weapon Master to get the Close combat throwing and not even worry about reach anymore. You don't have to care about Tumble or battlefield control if you turn yourself into a living TURRET.
Jeremymc 01-24-05, 12:39 AM	P.S. Neilthrun. "Rouge". 'nuff said.
Psifon 01-24-05, 02:11 AM	umm... a tank by definition won't be using much tumble, and thus, won't really care whether he tumbles much or not (besides, with Dwarfcraft heavy armour, and Heavy armour optimization, your Dex modifier should still be mildly in the positive, which is good for a fighter whose primary skills are STR and CON). When you think of the word TANK, you think: 1) HEAVY ARMOUR. 2) POWERFUL WEAPON. ***In that order. *** I have to put the lie to your characterization of a Tank as having to wear heavy armor and be slow on his feat. As far as I can tell, the best armor in the game for a Tank to wear is Glassteel Tesselated Armor Tesselated armor (from Arms & Equipment) counts as medium armor but protects as +2 Full Plate that has only a -4 armor check penalty. Glassteel is a material (from Races of Faerun) that combines the properties of Adamantium and Mithril. Combining these properties you get Full Plate (+8) that counts as LIGHT armor, has an armor check penalty of -1 and a total dex bonus of +3, and grants DR 3/- Finally, buy a 20th level wand of Magical Vestment, and have the party cleric or rogue cast it on you for the day and you bring the whole thing up to +5 enhancement bonus. Next get an Animated, Variable shield +1 (also of glassteel), and hit it with your wand as well. Now assuming that you have a 16 Dex, you get the following, and you turn your shield into a : Base +10 Armor Bonus +13 Dex Bonus +3 Shield bonus +7 Total AC: 33 Now I will grant you that this is not over the top or anything, but considering that you havn't added any natural armor, deflection bonus or etc. to it, and you can see you have a pretty good foundation there. IN ADDITION to all this, you can: Move 30' Tumble Weild a two handed weapon Turn you heavy shield into a tower shiled and take cover as a standard action (note that it is glassteel so you can see through it!) As for mobility, this (or any) tank, can simply stack fly and haste effects and get a 90' movement. Boots of speed and a wingged helm will cover this nicely, although there are many other ways to go. Now granted all of this is very expensive mo-jo, so you can't do this stuff until higher levels, but it certainly gives your tank character some goals to work toward, and piecing it together over time is part of the fun of building your character. I would recommend starting with that winged helm. The ability to do massive damage is only good if you can reach your foe after all, and a 60' fly speed with good maneuverability is all you will ever need to ensure that you do so. BTW I don't have the right books so what does Dwarfcraft Heavy Armor give you, and what is heavy armor optimization?
GrolubFranco 01-24-05, 02:30 AM	The problem is that initially nobody getīs 25000gps to spend on a armor. Gotta stick to some lousy armor and hold on till the moneyīs available, and 25000 is still a great amount of it. I only think that rogue or ranger make sense for qualifying for PCīs. For example in my build I would have: Climb 5 ranks Heal 5 ranks Jump 5 ranks knowledge(dungeoneering) 5 ranks Survival 5 ranks Concentrattion 5 ranks Craft(Stoneworking) 8 ranks How can I achieve this without at least a lvl in ranger? Itīs completely impossible! IMO itīs just because of PCīs, not that I want to tumble, beucase the spiked chain would do the trick.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-05, 03:13 PM	When you think of the word tank, you might. I don't. Tanks, in the real world, are one of the fastest land-based items on a battlefield. The Abrams tank is faster than the Bradley as an example when it has to be. The point of heavy armor in D&D is to not get hit. It isn't the point in and of itself. If you avoid AoOs(tumbling) and generate AoOs(killing opponents faster), you can reduce the number of full BAB attacks by enemies. Meaning you don't get hit as much. When you think of the word TANK, you think: 1) HEAVY ARMOUR. 2) POWERFUL WEAPON. You don't have to care about Tumble or battlefield control if you turn yourself into a living TURRET.
Nazzareth 01-24-05, 05:09 PM	As I have said many times before monk 6/ shou disicple 5/ prc 9 makes for a great tank. This is a great start for unarmoured or light armoured tanks PRCs such as the dervish, duelist and invisible blades. You gain two extra attacks at full BAB, The down side is your BAB is maxed at 18, and you can only gain 1x str to damage if using weapons two handed, but this becomes a plus if you TWF as your off hand now gets 1x str to damage instead of half str. duelist and dervish characters can gain very high AC due to canny defense.
JosephKell 01-24-05, 05:19 PM	When you think of the word tank, you might. I don't. Tanks, in the real world, are one of the fastest land-based items on a battlefield. The Abrams tank is faster than the Bradley as an example when it has to be. The point of heavy armor in D&D is to not get hit. It isn't the point in and of itself. If you avoid AoOs(tumbling) and generate AoOs(killing opponents faster), you can reduce the number of full BAB attacks by enemies. Meaning you don't get hit as much.What point were you trying to make? That "Tumble is worth going with Light Armor"? Cause Light Armor only goes up to +5 to Armor (Mithral Breastplate), but Heavy Armor goes up to +8 Armor without the special material. The defense bonuses from armor are the cheapest in the game! Full-Plate is +8 for 1,500 gp. +3 Mithral Breast Plate matches normal Fullplate for AC bonuses but it cost 14,350 gp (350 MW Breast Plate, 5,000 for Mithral, and 9,000 for +3 enhancement), that is almost 10 times the cost! For the same gold a Tank could get +2 Full-Plate and and spend the remaining 8,700 gp on a back up weapon or shield! And Heavy Armor Optimization is a terrific feat tree for Straight Fighters (who have a lot of Feats to spend). Greater H. Armor Optimization makes Full-Plate +11 to AC I believe. And the ACP is 2 less (3 less with Masterwork). Dwarfcraft makes it harder to break I believe (increasing hardness and item hp).
neilthrun 01-24-05, 05:27 PM	When you think of the word tank, you might. I don't. Tanks, in the real world, are one of the fastest land-based items on a battlefield. The Abrams tank is faster than the Bradley as an example when it has to be. The point of heavy armor in D&D is to not get hit. It isn't the point in and of itself. If you avoid AoOs(tumbling) and generate AoOs(killing opponents faster), you can reduce the number of full BAB attacks by enemies. Meaning you don't get hit as much. the modern tank is fast. True. But not fast compared to other modern weapons of war. Jets, helicopters, missles. There are even racecars that can break the sound barrier. And isn't it kind of ridiculous to be doing cartwheels and sommersaults in full plate anyways? What self deserviving "tank" would be caught dead dancing around the battlefield because hes scared of being hit?
lokkesmadr 01-24-05, 05:36 PM	checkWhat self deserviving "tank" would be caught dead dancing around the battlefield because hes scared of being hit? That would be the 'naked lemming' tank archetype. Y'know? The one with massive dexterity, karmic strike, no armor, an obscene tumble bonus and the Sidestep feat. The one that never actually gets hit except by creatures with 15' reach or more. That one. EDIT: Realised Goad was a bad feat for the objective, removed it from the post.
GrolubFranco 01-24-05, 07:43 PM	Tank hasnīt a true definition, it depends on the criteria of someone, but come on... you can buy a Mechanus Armor for just 1750gpīs and have +10 AC, no drawback!
ck2001wendt 01-24-05, 08:01 PM	Tank (Meriam Webster): an enclosed heavily armed and armored combat vehicle that moves on tracks
Psifon 01-24-05, 09:05 PM	Tank hasnīt a true definition, it depends on the criteria of someone, but come on... you can buy a Mechanus Armor for just 1750gpīs and have +10 AC, no drawback! Where does one find mechanus armor? also where does one find heavy armor optimization?
Snicker-Snack 01-24-05, 09:37 PM	Where does one find mechanus armor? also where does one find heavy armor optimization? Mechanus Gear Armor is in Planar Handbook, and Heavy Armor optimization is in Races of Stone.
Jeremymc 01-25-05, 02:55 PM	First off, the modern tank is the "fastest" thing on the battlefield? What does that even mean? It has no bearing on this argument, other than to disply a pointless knowledge of army vehicle trivia. That would be the 'naked lemming' tank archetype. Y'know? The one with massive dexterity, karmic strike, no armor, an obscene tumble bonus and the Sidestep feat. The one that never actually gets hit except by creatures with 15' reach or more. That one. Okay. This is silly. This just DOESN'T happen. The type of fighter who is imagined flipping around a battlefield, dodging attacks is a pipedream. A tooled-up Dex fighter and a tooled-up tank will have RADICALLY different armour classes. The tank's will always be much better. There is no comparison. The only way a dex-fighter can even HOPE to attain anything close to the tank's AC is by taking "Improved Combat expertise" and devoting a ton of bonus to that. And the Tank can take that too, don't forget. Remember. Each point of Dexterity based armour class takes TWO FULL POINT of Dexterity IMPROVEMENT. Even if you take a base race with +8 Dexterity, that translates into a +4 AC. Which, as was pointed out, you get for FREE when you take the heavier plates. And a Dex-based fighter doesn't carry large steel shields, which give the Tank a whole category of protection to magic-up as they like. A +5 shield is an EXTRA +7 or +8 AC, which you would need +16 Dexterity to rival. And your focussing on Dexterity to the exclusion of other stats means you have a lower str, and a lower con than the tank. So sure, you may get one more AoO per round (though to be honest, trading shots with a stronger opponent via Karmic Strike is stupid. Since Karmic Strike is the one that gives you an AoO when you get hit), but you do far less damage, can sustain far less punishment and (barring Combat Expertise), have a far worse AC. So how in the flip does a flipping fighter beat the Iron-mill that is the Tank? If you really think he can, then build it. I'd put my tank, or that of Josephkell (it's probably better than mine...) up against any flippy, karmic fighter ANY day of the week. With a thousand potatos, or two fatted calves, wagered on the outcome of the fight.
Nazzareth 01-25-05, 03:57 PM	The double hit feat combined with karmic strike, TWF, improved shield bash is a great tactic that can be used by armoured and non armoured tanks alike. You gain two attacks for every one that hits you, add in deft opportunist to gain + 4 to hit as well. The key to karmic striking is knowing when to use it when not to use it, in some fights you are going to get hit regardless of your AC being increased or decreased by four points so why not use it if you are going to get hit anyway.
ck2001wendt 01-25-05, 04:00 PM	First off, the modern tank is the "fastest" thing on the battlefield? What does that even mean? It has no bearing on this argument, other than to disply a pointless knowledge of army vehicle trivia. And second, debating an argument with dictionary definitions of proper nouns is an extremely lame tactic, used only by people with nothing left to fall back on. Eh. Someone said there's no definition of "tank." That's patently false. It throws us into the world of post-modern thought. If I say a pony is a "tank," because I define a tank as a four-legged creature that winnies, how do you dispute that? A tank is 1) heavily armed, 2) heavily armored. Fastest thing on the battlefield? Probably not. A tank is NOT a loose-limbed, flip-flopping finesse fighter. Might be a great fighter, but it's not a tank. It's mechanized infantry. What does it mean to be "heavily armed?" I take that to be the ability to consistently hurt your opponent. That means 1) being able to hit (high Att) and 2) being able to do lots of damage when you hit. What does it mean to be "heavily armored?" I take that to be the ability to avoid damage and stay on the battlefield, and that means a high AC and HP, with high Saves a secondary objective. Now, there are a lot of ways to get "Armored." That doesn't necessarily mean Plate Mail. If you can get a 60 AC without armor or compromising your ability to dish out large amounts of damage, then you are a tank (and a damn good one, since touch attacks won't be a vulnerability). I'm big on equations and benchmarks (see: Gish Coefficient), and if I were put numbers to it, I'd say that a Tank should have at least: 1) 1.5x(PC level) at the highest Att bonus (so +30 at lvl 20); and 2) 15+(PC level) for AC. (so 35 at level 20). 3) 10x(PC level) HP (so min. 200 at level 20). The reason I set these benchmarks is: -At level 20, a fighter-type will have a Str of at least 24 (through items, etc.; can easily get this w. starting Str. 13), +20 BAB to hit and let's call it a +3 weapon = 30 -At level 20, a fighter can reasonably be expected to have (not counting Dex) 10+13 from Armor (+8 Plate), +7 from a Shield (+5 Hvy Steel) and +5 Deflection (Ring of Prot) = 35 -At level 20, a fully D10 class will have 5.5x19+10=104 HP from levels alone (on average), and can be reasonably expected to get another 100 HP through Con bonuses (Con 14 plus +6 Amulet of Health fits the bill). -It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you do. If you have to use Improved Combat Expertise to sneak your AC above 35, but it means you've only got a +20 to hit, you're not a tank. Please feel free to amend or dispute these numbers, as they are off the top of my head.
ck2001wendt 01-25-05, 04:26 PM	Oops...forgot one key aspect: Tanks may not be the fastest thing on the battlefield, but they're expected (since WW II) to be significantly faster than the infantry they work with. 1. Artillery (Arcanes) soften up targets. 2. Tanks roll through, breaking up opposition and achieving certain tactical objectives. 3. Infantry and Mech Infantry roll in (quickly in the later case) and mop up. In the age of the Air-Land war doctrine, step one is replaced by missiles or aircraft (also Arcanes) for precision striking and long-range bombardment. This doesn't all translate directly into D&D, but a lot of the tactics are the same (most tanks should be able to fly by 20th level, for ex.). But a Fighter on horseseback, or at later levels a Fighter with Wings of Flying or nifty Boots, works nicely as a tank. If they're Dwarven and can absorb more punishment, all the better.
Mommy was an Orc 01-25-05, 05:08 PM	You said what I thought of when I thought of tanks - heavily armored and powerful weapon. And you're flat out wrong - the most important aspect of a tank in warfare is its speed given how armored it is...and it has always been. There's a reason the word 'Blitzkreig' described the first major use of tanks in warfare. Really, the thing not being said is the quality of the tactics of the opposition. As an example, if you know the tank is in heavy armor and you can't easily hit him, and someone else in the group is more dangerous(i.e. spellcaster), then you go after the spellcaster if at all possible. If someone is fighting defensively, you swing at someone who isn't. Or use touch attacks to ignore armor and shield bonuses. These are standard tactics that PCs use all the time. When the NPCs start using them, then the value of being unhittable via heavy armor drops and the value of battlefield control rises. First off, the modern tank is the "fastest" thing on the battlefield? What does that even mean? It has no bearing on this argument, other than to disply a pointless knowledge of army vehicle trivia.
Psifon 01-25-05, 05:11 PM	I like the benchmarks, I think they are about spot on. Good one.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-25-05, 06:48 PM	I'm big on equations and benchmarks (see: Gish Coefficient), and if I were put numbers to it, I'd say that a Tank should have at least: 1) 1.5x(PC level) at the highest Att bonus (so +30 at lvl 20); and 2) 15+(PC level) for AC. (so 35 at level 20). 3) 10x(PC level) HP (so min. 200 at level 20). I like those numbers and have been using similar ones for some time. The problem is they don't include things such as multiple attacks (especially from TWf and flurry) and mobility. To me, those are the big unknowns for me. (for example: Is a +25 bonus to hit acceptable if you have 5 attacks instead of 4? Is +20 acceptable if you have 5 attacks, the first 3 being at no penalty? Is 3AC worth +10ft of movement? Is 5AC worth 10ft of movement and the ability to move around the field freely with Tumble?)
D1Tremere 01-25-05, 06:54 PM	I am currently playing a Dwarf Tank that relies on high AC and controls the flow of the fight, it seems to be working at level 3 realy well. 1st lvl:Weapon Prof.: All Simple, Weapon Prof.: All Martial, Armor Prof.: All, Shield Prof.: All, Flaw: Love of Nature, Flaw: Loudmouth, Trait: Stout, Trait: Night-Sighted, Fighter Bonus Feat: Dodge, Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise, Bonus Feat: Endurance, Feat: Die Hard, 12 SP 2nd lvl:Fighter Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes, 3 SP 3rd lvl:Feat: Karmic Strike, 3 SP Going for Dwarven Defender (only wish I could use races of stone, heavy armor optomization is so great)
Ramses III 01-25-05, 07:17 PM	I like those numbers and have been using similar ones for some time. The problem is they don't include things such as multiple attacks (especially from TWf and flurry) and mobility. To me, those are the big unknowns for me. (for example: Is a +25 bonus to hit acceptable if you have 5 attacks instead of 4? Is +20 acceptable if you have 5 attacks, the first 3 being at no penalty? Is 3AC worth +10ft of movement? Is 5AC worth 10ft of movement and the ability to move around the field freely with Tumble?) You don't really have to lose 3AC to get your +10 feet of movement if your armor is full plate. You get mithral full plate and cherry pick a level of barbarian. Unenhanced armor bonus +8, move of 30 feet for a human, dwarf, or half-orc. As to the movement/spring attack thing, I'm not saying that mobility is the best or even a defining factor for a tank. I'm saying that sometimes it's pretty useful. In the case of the fighter build that I presented earlier, Spring Attack lets you take out 2 or 3 soft targets standing next to each other on your first action in combat, and still be in position to make a devastating full attack the next round (with the benefit of pinning the foe you threaten in place unless it wants to take your AoO).
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-25-05, 07:21 PM	Really, the thing not being said is the quality of the tactics of the opposition. As an example, if you know the tank is in heavy armor and you can't easily hit him, and someone else in the group is more dangerous(i.e. spellcaster), then you go after the spellcaster if at all possible. If someone is fighting defensively, you swing at someone who isn't. Or use touch attacks to ignore armor and shield bonuses. These are standard tactics that PCs use all the time. When the NPCs start using them, then the value of being unhittable via heavy armor drops and the value of battlefield control rises. I very much agree with this. Heavy armor provides great AC, but if that AC can be negated for several around of a fight is that character as valuable with someone with 80%+ the AC but can put it to use almost every round? Now, I'm not saying "the heavy armor tank is worthless", but in my experience I have seen heavy armor tanks, with their 20ft moves and bad mobility skills, miss out on rounds of combat due to those limitations. I used to believe in the full plate & greatsword tank being a force to be reckoned with (we have one in our game, and he is brutal) but seeing how easy it is to "negate" a character like that by challenging their mobility it made me wonder: "AC that is out of position is useless, have we been underestimating the value of mobility?". People seem happy to be dropped to 20ft/x3 movement and take a -5 to -10 armor check penalty to drive their AC higher. Is that because mobility is worthless, people haven't considered it or just it cannot be quantified easily so is overlooked compared to hard numbers? (p.s. For whatever it's worth, the final event that drove me to looking for non-heavy armor solutions to tanking was watching a 4th level Paladin of Tyranny in full plate and a 16Str fall into "rough" water in which it was impossible for him to make a Swim check to stay afloat (DC15 Swim check for rough water with a -7 Swim total (+3Str - 10 full plate ACP, doubled for swimming= -7 total Swim)) forcing 2 party members have to chase him down stream to pull him out of the water before he drowned. They were lucky that combat ended that round :D )
Fiendish Dire Weasel 01-25-05, 07:31 PM	You don't really have to lose 3AC to get your +10 feet of movement if your armor is full plate. You get mithral full plate and cherry pick a level of barbarian. Unenhanced armor bonus +8, move of 30 feet for a human, dwarf, or half-orc. Sure, it was just an abstract example. I'm sure there is a practical one somewhere, like the "super-heavy" full plate varients with a +9 or +10 armor bonus.
ck2001wendt 01-25-05, 08:24 PM	If I were to have added one more benchmark, looking back over the conventional usage of tanks (WW II, not WW I), it would have been: 4) A Tank needs to be able to move at least 45 ft/round. 45 is a totally arbitrary number, based on base Med creature spd (30 ft) multiplied by something that is very easy to get (1 level of Barbarian and Boots of Striding and Springing, or any number of low level spells, or Wings of Flying, etc.).
solbergb 01-25-05, 08:37 PM	Something to consider in addition to the AC is attack denial. I've got a monk who has somehow survived to level 9 with an armor class of 13 (12 before level 5). He is in random parties where quite often he's the only "fighter type" or "rogue type" so his usual position is "point". His ability to trip (with nonproficient spiked chain) or grapple incoming opponents on surprise rounds via hold the line means that most enemies his size or smaller are looking at sub 10% chances of getting an attack off on him. Opponents larger then him just get smacked in the nose and do get to hit him, (and quite reliably at that), but it's worked fairly well against a variety of opponents. While he's not durable in melee versus someone none of his "denial" affects, he is durable against spellcasting. So in roughly 2/3 battles he's still standing after being the focus of a lot of effort on the enemy to remove him, and he's prevented access to back rank party members, either directly (tripping, grappling, drawing fire) or indirectly (putting pressure on enemies so they attack him and not other party members). The other 1/3 he plays 100% as a skirmisher...versus large, strong enemies he'll either support other party members, be "bait" or find someone on the battlefield he CAN remove and spend the battle isolating that individual. Now this monk is not a "tank" for the purpose of this dicussion. He's only durable against certain categories of attacks, and "melee attack from really big monster" isn't one of them. He's light infantry, in the same category as speedy raging barbarians who also draw a lot of fire because people fear them...the difference is that while he does not have 200hp, only about half the attacks a barb sucks up actually get to him. So it plays about the same. But a tank who ALSO has good armor class might give thought to feats/class abilities that deny attacks if they want to push the invulnerability angle to the next level, and they must consider saving throws (you aren't much of a tank if one spell takes you out of the fight). A trip/combat reflexes/disarm build that ALSO has good armor class and decent saves is going to be more effective in the tank role than the same character who just spent all his resources pushing AC by another 10 points. After about level 8 you really need to do better than 20'/round mobility too, because the enemies are just too mobile. They'll just circle around you and squish the back rank. 3-dimensions is best, flight, but boots of haste will do in a pinch, or even striding/springing.
JosephKell 01-25-05, 11:58 PM	Boots of Springing and Striding increase your movement even if armored. But like I said before. You can still RUN. Run Feat + Heavy armor is x4 run speed (Run adds another "multiple" to your run speed). Regardless though, you can always charge at 40 ft. In fact, the only reason I can see for the "20 ft is too slow" argument is if your point of reference is like 50 or 60 ft base speed. When base is really 30 ft. Remember, if a PC uses Spring Attack will probably use half their movement to get in and the other half to get out (so split it down the middle). In addition, when using Spring Attack, you don't provoke an AoO from the target. So a Human can use Spring Attack against a Giant and (without making tumble checks) move 15 feet in, attack, and get 15 feet back out without provoking a single AoO from the giant you are attacking (which is not to say its Giant friends won't be AoOing). I finally realized the real reason people assume the Fighter is underpowered: It's class feature is a lot of feats. Which is "Something every class gets anyway. And not something remotely unique (like evasion or spells)." Which is a misnomer because the Fighter doesn't get "feats" it gets a "LOT of feats." However, this thread is about Tanks (Heavy Infantry), not Cavaliers, not Skirmishers, not Guerrillas, not Archers... Tanks. If you have a Skirmisher you are dying to share, make a thread.
ck2001wendt 01-26-05, 12:16 AM	However, this thread is about Tanks (Heavy Infantry), not Cavaliers, not Skirmishers, not Guerrillas, not Archers... Tanks. If you have a Skirmisher you are dying to share, make a thread. Not Cavaliers? Is the mounted Knight not the mideval equivalent of the modern tank, both in its ability to terrorize opponents and its staying power on the battlefield? (the second one isn't true if there are archers around or the terrain is muddy, but in D&D it's not as big an issue) Based on what I said about tanks before, a mounted Knight meets all the requirements for a Tank, and then some: 1) Powerful initial attack (the Lance) capable of smashing enemy formations, followed by high BAB melee attacks (Fighter 20 on a horse vs. Fighter 20 on the ground, except with a +1 Att for elevation and an extra Move Action). Not to mention whatever attacks a tricked out mount might get. 2) High AC; a mounted Knight can pile on the armor just as well as his ground-based companion. 3) High HP; no different than a ground-based tank. 4) Good movement; big advantage for our mounted friends (especially "flying" tanks like Griffon riders). Less tactical mobility, though (good luck getting said horse up a cliff or through a dungeon). The only disadvantages to being mounted are 1) reduced utility in enclosed spaces and 2) potential mount vulnerability. Knights, however, are more than capable of being tanks.
catharz 01-26-05, 01:25 AM	Okay. This is silly. This just DOESN'T happen. The type of fighter who is imagined flipping around a battlefield, dodging attacks is a pipedream. A tooled-up Dex fighter and a tooled-up tank will have RADICALLY different armour classes. The tank's will always be much better. There is no comparison. The only way a dex-fighter can even HOPE to attain anything close to the tank's AC is by taking "Improved Combat expertise" and devoting a ton of bonus to that. The character doesn't have AC. The character doesn't need AC. The Dex isn't for AC, it is for AoOs. The build goes, oops, you hit me... Trip, Sidestep... Nevermind! And this open up the discussion of whether a character that is functionally a tank can be considered a "Tank" even if you go about it through nonconventional ways. I would say yes. BTW, as levels go up the unarmored vs. armored AC disparity becomes smaller and smaller, and eventually flips to to max Dex bonuses and magical enhancements (to Dex and to AC).
cultjake 01-26-05, 01:39 AM	I got some questions though........ Shields: necessary? animated? Feats: 1) Power Attack and Cleave as a general rule? 2) Utility of Combat Reflexes? 3) Other must haves....top 5 tank feats?
talion09 01-26-05, 04:10 AM	To follow along the same vein as the question about the top 5 feats for tanks... There has been a lot of discussion about first level tanks (the rogue-good/rogue-bad discussion) and about 20th level builds, but what about inbetween? How about what (in your opinion of course) is the best build for a low level tank? Say at level 5. Or a mid-level tank at level 10?
GrolubFranco 01-26-05, 04:21 AM	Donīt understand, if a fighter has reach why does he need mobility? With tripping he can control at least say about 3 monsters without even moving, not allowing them do move either with improved trip or stand still. I think also that it depends on your DM, if heīll throw lotīs of monsters at you or if he divides things.
ck2001wendt 01-26-05, 07:39 AM	I got some questions though........ Shields: necessary? animated? Feats: 1) Power Attack and Cleave as a general rule? 2) Utility of Combat Reflexes? 3) Other must haves....top 5 tank feats? Shields: Necessary. A good sturdy shield will net you +5-7 AC easy. Yeah, Animated would be pretty nice. Feats: Improved Toughness.
GrolubFranco 01-26-05, 08:02 AM	I got some questions though........ Shields: necessary? animated? Feats: 1) Power Attack and Cleave as a general rule? 2) Utility of Combat Reflexes? 3) Other must haves....top 5 tank feats? 1)Power attack and cleave arenīt for a tank, those are for the pure damage dealing character. As I said before, a tank is a guy who can hold up lotīs of damage, and doesnīt let the monsters pass by. 2)Combat Reflexes depends on the strategy. If you use a spiked chain or something, then yes of course. I would combine it with improved trip and stand still. 3)Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Sidestep and double-hit if you can take it, etc.
Jeremymc 01-26-05, 10:56 AM	The key to karmic striking is knowing when to use it when not to use it, in some fights you are going to get hit regardless of your AC being increased or decreased by four points so why not use it if you are going to get hit anyway. Generating attacks of opportunity with your rapier, against a Dwarven Defender with an AC of 60, and a DR of 12/-, by getting HIT by him, seems quite possibly the easiest way to die ever devised in DND.
Jeremymc 01-26-05, 11:01 AM	You said what I thought of when I thought of tanks - heavily armored and powerful weapon. And you're flat out wrong - the most important aspect of a tank in warfare is its speed given how armored it is...and it has always been. There's a reason the word 'Blitzkreig' described the first major use of tanks in warfare. Okay, I swear to GOD.... We are NOT having a pointless discussion about real-world tanks. For the purposes of this thread, and this game, this argument has NO RELEVANCE TO ANYTHING. :mad: Defining tanks according to the dictionary, and according to military history is fine and dandy. But means nothing other than the fact that most gamers have a wierd and stinky obsession with military hardware. It simply doesn't apply here. I might as well counter your argument with the argument that "Penguins mate for life"... It means as much to this debate. For that matter, I think I will. Any time someone posts something about tanks in the real world, or the definition of a military tank, I will respond with a random fact about penguins and penguin biology, just to point out how useless that line of argumentation is. But if you want to post something about the DND 'Tank' (Defender) vs. the DND 'Howitzer' (F.Bezerker), well... I'm all ears.
GrolubFranco 01-26-05, 11:03 AM	I think the one thatīs gone laugh is the Dwarven Defender if you even manage to hit him, Iīll reduce a part of the damage and then has an AoO against you that will make you trip.
GrolubFranco 01-26-05, 11:06 AM	I also think that Deepwarden doesnīt synergize very well with the Dwarven Defender for the purpose of the Max dex imposed by the heavy armor. Alas, that doesnīt limit your AoO, but simply makes you having to invest on two stats (DEX and CON) instead of just CON.
Jeremymc 01-26-05, 11:29 AM	And this open up the discussion of whether a character that is functionally a tank can be considered a "Tank" even if you go about it through nonconventional ways. I would say yes. BTW, as levels go up the unarmored vs. armored AC disparity becomes smaller and smaller, and eventually flips to to max Dex bonuses and magical enhancements (to Dex and to AC). That's a fabrication. As levels of armoured characters go up, so do the enhancements on their armour, so do the feats that allow them to increase their armour class. So do the class abilities that allow them to increase their armour class. The disparity grows closer when you're able to buy things like "bracers of armour". But not very much closer, as given equal treasure, the Tank character is able to Tank himself up to almost the same degree. But by all means, prove it. Build the best Heavily armoured "tank" characer you can, then build the best Lightly armoured character you can. Give them equal treasure, equal stat points and build them both, and see which one comes out on top, and you'll see by how MUCH. And then notice how much poorer your 'Dex-based' fighter is at combat. Can a dex-based fighter even hurt (barring criticals) a fighter with DR 12/-? What about DR 15/-? What about DR 18/-? And people seem to be expanding this thread into discussions of "well, if I tailor my tactics to defeat the TANK, I should be able to defeat the tank", or "if my lightly armoured character controls the battlefield through tripping, he should also be a tank". But these are not characters, these are styles of playing. If you tailor tactics to beat a certain type of character, then OF COURSE you're probably going to beat that character. It's silly to think otherwise. Besides. When you get to high levels, tripping becomes EXPONENTIALLY harder. Creatures become Huge to Gargantuan, Str goes into 40s and 50s, and your ability to trip is somewhat left in the dust. Disarming? Doesn't matter when the creature fights with claws. Doesn't matter if the enemy is smart enough to have a "returning" weapon. Doesn't matter if the enemy is a Titan Monk who fights with his huge, stomping feet. I can quite easily defeat the battlefield-controlling "tank" by building an enlarged Tauric Duergar TWFighter with two locked weapons. Do I want to? No. Why not? Because as a DM, it would be very cheap of me to target tactics against specific character. This thread is for the building of the "Heavy Infantry" type of tank. Whether riding a horse or standing on the ground, or charging on your Tauric, Duergar legs... the principle is largely the same. Armour, toughness, stamina, survivability, with what still is an extremely powerful and respectable arsenal.
Jeremymc 01-26-05, 11:32 AM	I also think that Deepwarden doesnīt synergize very well with the Dwarven Defender for the purpose of the Max dex imposed by the heavy armor. Alas, that doesnīt limit your AoO, but simply makes you having to invest on two stats (DEX and CON) instead of just CON. Yah, the Deepwarden skill is really terribly worded. If you read it as giving you a CON bonus regardless of the Max/Dex modifier from your Armour, then it's a game-breaking skill. But if you read it as providing exactly the same bonuses in exactly the same way as Dexterity (which is balanced), then I guess the only reason you'd take it is precisely to AVOID having to have a good Dexterity. As I read the Deepwarden skill, between that and Brutal Throw, the Tank doesn't need Dexterity at all anymore, and can use it as somewhat of a dump stat.
JosephKell 01-26-05, 12:45 PM	FYI: Bracers of Armor are pretty much the same as +X Rags (+0 to AC, no max dex, no Armor Check Penalty). Which is why I always thought it was weird that Bracers of Armor are Wonderous Items rather than Magic Armor. +5 Bracers of Armor cost 25,000 gp right? Well a Fighter could spend the same 25,000 gp on their full-plate for a total cost of 26,650 gp for +8 AC bonus and +5 armor enhancement. Tanks and Cavaliers are vastly different. They go different routes with feats and use different tactics. Tanks go for full-attack while Cavaliers go for really damaging charges (1 Ride-by Attack a round). Heck! You could classify a warrior by its chief form of attack (those they use/get during the first 2-4 levels). You have Spring Attackers, Power Attackers, Ride-by Attackers, Rapid Shooters... Those translate to Skirmisher, Tank, Cavalier, Archer... That is another reason Fighter 2 is great for the first two levels, you get a total of 3 feats during the first 2 levels (not including racial bonuses). That could be Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Cleave or Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Comp. Longbow) (Ranger 2 following is good reason to delay Rapid Shot). Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Two-handed Weapon) to lead in to Spring Attack. Thank you Jeremymc for you statement about counter tactics. Hopefully it will put an end to the "If you do ____, I'll just do ____," style of posts.
Mommy was an Orc 01-26-05, 01:06 PM	No, it doesn't. You need to remember Polymorph - Polymorphing into a Sun Giant(MMII) is possible for a Chameleon build at 12th level. If the Chameleon has a +4 Item of Str and a +4 Chameleon Bonus, then that's a total of a 45 Strength and Huge at 12th level. With the +4 of Improved Trip and the ability to Quick Draw a new Tripping weapon every time I fail and have to drop, the monsters you listed should likely be tripped every round. When you get to high levels, tripping becomes EXPONENTIALLY harder. Creatures become Huge to Gargantuan, Str goes into 40s and 50s, and your ability to trip is somewhat left in the dust.
talion09 01-26-05, 01:52 PM	... Can a dex-based fighter even hurt (barring criticals) a fighter with DR 12/-? What about DR 15/-? What about DR 18/-? ... Just out of curiosity, how do you get DR 12/- (or 15/- or 18/-)? Are you polymorphing into a creature with that much DR? Or using magic items or spells? Or using templates like mineral warrior? Or taking feats like Roll with It (Savage Species?) many, many times? Or a combination of the above? I'm just stumped at the moment how you would get the DR that high, as well as having it be the best type of damage reduction (X/-). Edit: I forgot to mention how much I like having some form of Damage Reduction early on in a warrior's career, at least if you are a meatshield or tank. There is something fun about being able to ignore the minor damage that adds up over the course of the combat, as well as mitigate the bigger hits you take. One of my favorite characters in recent years was a dwarf who had a CON 20 at first level, and the DM allowed me to take the Roll with It feat from Savage Species... by level 3 I had DR 4/-, as well as massive HP from my CON, and it was a lot of fun to romp through hordes of orcs and goblins and laugh at their attacks :-) Sure, I had no real other combat feats aside from Toughness and multiple Roll with Its, so I had to rely on brute force attacks, but it was still fun.
TripleF 01-26-05, 02:53 PM	I also think that Deepwarden doesnīt synergize very well with the Dwarven Defender for the purpose of the Max dex imposed by the heavy armor. Alas, that doesnīt limit your AoO, but simply makes you having to invest on two stats (DEX and CON) instead of just CON. Assuming Stonewarden is limited by max dex your still not hurt buy it. Its great if you are in a position to get the magic items you want. Mithral Full Plate and the Nimbleness armor ability from Magic of Fareun gives you a +5 dex bonus. My ranger 3/fighter 2/ Deepwarden 2/ Battlesmith 4 is one of my favorite characters of all time. The key to making a good tank is to get the cleric to support you. Make friends with the cleric. Buy him a strand of prayer beads (Karma and Healing) 9000 gp. Get him to cast Magic Vestment on your Armor and Shield using the beads of Karma. Same goes from Greater Magic Weapon. You have hours per level buffs at +4 caster level, meaning at level 12 you have +4 shield, armor, and weapon. If you can count on the cleric to buff you that way you can spend your money getting armor, shield, and weapon magical abilities like nimbleness, animated, flaming, sure striking, keen, Bleesed, whatever.
catharz 01-26-05, 05:58 PM	But by all means, prove it. Build the best Heavily armoured "tank" characer you can, then build the best Lightly armoured character you can. Give them equal treasure, equal stat points and build them both, and see which one comes out on top, and you'll see by how MUCH. And then notice how much poorer your 'Dex-based' fighter is at combat. Can a dex-based fighter even hurt (barring criticals) a fighter with DR 12/-? What about DR 15/-? What about DR 18/-? Human Barbarian 1/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Bard 1/War chanter 3/Frenzied berserker 10 1:Brb 1 |----------------------------|+1 | 2/0/0|1d12 2:Brb 1/Mnk 1 |----------------------|+1 | 4/2/2|1d12+1d8 3:Brb 1/Mnk 1/Ftr 1 |----------------|+2 | 6/2/2|1d12+1d8+1d10 4:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 1 |----------------|+3 | 7/3/3|1d12+2d8+1d10 5:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 1/Brd 1 |----------|+3 | 7/5/5|1d12+2d8+1d10+1d6 6:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Brd 1 |----------|+4 | 8/5/5|1d12+2d8+2d10+1d6 7:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Brd 1/WC 1 |-----|+5 |10/5/5|1d12+3d8+2d10+1d6 9:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Brd 1/WC 3 |-----|+7 |11/6/6|1d12+5d8+2d10+1d6 10:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Brd 1/WC 3/FB 1 |+8 |13/6/6|2d12+5d8+2d10+1d6 19:Brb 1/Mnk 2/Ftr 2/Brd 1/WC 3/FB 10|+17|18/9/9|11d12+5d8+2d10+1d6 Feats (12)~ 1(Human: Power attack, Level: Intimidating rage), 2(Mnk: Combat expertise), 3(Level: Dodge, Ftr: Exotic weapon proficiencies (Dwarven buckler axe [CW], Meteor hammer [Drg 319], Resin spiked chain, Spiked chain) & Weapon focus (Spiked chain)), 4(Monk: Combat reflexes), 6(Level: Destructive rage, Ftr: Cleave), 9(Level: Righteous wrath), 12(Level: Leap attack [CAd]), 15(Level: Close-quarters fighting), 18(Level:?). Class variants~ Fighter: Exoticist [Drg 310]. Monk: Martial monk [Drg 310]. S:14+2 (6) D:14+2 (6, 19 @ level 20) C:14+2 (6) I:14+2 (6) W:8-1 C:9-1 (1) (=25) EQ~ • Weapons: -Aurorum [BoED] Spiked chain +1 Ghost touch Wrathful healing [E&A] Metaline [Und] (+7, 102,025 gp). -Locked gauntlet +1 Fierce [A&E] (+3, 18,000 gp), Gauntlet of rust (11,500 gp). -Dwarven buckler axe +1 Deflecting [CW] (+2, 8,000 gp). • One amulet: Retributive amulet (56,000 gp). • One belt: Perfect excellence +6 [MHB] (200k gp). • Two rings: -Freedom of movement (40,000 gp). • One pair of boots: Steadfast boots [A&EG] (6,000 gp). • Slotless/used items: Sparring dummy of the master ([A&E], 30,000 gp). • Carried: Joyous star song [MoF] (5,800 gp). You can go ahead and make the armored guy ;)
JosephKell 01-26-05, 06:18 PM	Only two alignment shifts, Catharz?
Otto the Bugbear 01-26-05, 06:24 PM	EQ~ • Weapons: -Locked gauntlet +1 Fierce [A&E] (+3, 18,000 gp), Gauntlet of rust (11,500 gp). • Two gloves: Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp). DMG page 214, left side... "One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets" You may want to switch something around there. Cheers Otto :)
Todd 01-26-05, 07:38 PM	Human Class variants~ Fighter: Exoticist [Drg 310]. Monk: Martial monk [Drg 310]. Dragon Mag. That's a bit low.
JosephKell 01-26-05, 07:52 PM	Dragon Mag. That's a bit low.What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Mucknuggle 01-26-05, 07:54 PM	Dragon Mag. That's a bit low. It's no less balanced than the 3.5 WotC hardcover stuff. See numerous ridiculous things from the Complete line for proof.
lokkesmadr 01-26-05, 08:10 PM	Hi, Jeremymc, remember me? Assuming you can wait while I put it together I'll happily provide a lightly armored tank build. However, I'm both lazy and busy so might take a while to produce it. It probably won't be better than the best high AC high damage build I could make but I wasn't asked if it was the best, I was asked if it was self respecting. Still, the silliest tank I can envision would use the simple tactic of making 30 touch attacks a round to deal negative levels (subject to spell resistance). I suppose I could include Karmic Strike and Double Hit in order to make 10 such attacks in response to being hit, as well. Of course, it's not really a tank since it relies on active magical effects, which I fell a tank shouldn't have to. If you feel a tank must be a certain way then by all means, keep your tanks that way. I agree that the archetypical tank will have a high damage and massive survivability; I agree that survivability is the key factor in defining something as a tank; I even agree that the archetypical tank will achieve this with high damage per hit and a high AC. The thing is, we seem to disagree as to whether there's any other way to build a tank. I say there is, you say there isn't.
Psifon 01-26-05, 09:57 PM	You know, survivability is important, but in a REAL LIFE tank, once the armor is pierced, the crew is usually dead, so as you can see, hit points are probably more important than AC in a true tank build.
Todd 01-26-05, 10:18 PM	What the hell is that supposed to mean? Sorry if I offended, but it irks me to see Dragon Mag stuff brought into threads like this. As a personal opinion I'm not a huge fan of it but that aside, what really bothers me is that I've yet to actually play in a game where the DM will allow anything from it. I think that my experience is not uncommon either. Core stuff can be assumed for all games. The Races & Complete stuff can be assumed for a lot of them though not all. 3rd party publications and Dragon Mag are pretty spotty though. I'm interested to see where this thread goes but the more ... less commonly accepted ... stuff that gets put into comparison builds the less relevance it has. To me anyway. YMMV.
catharz 01-26-05, 10:25 PM	Only two alignment shifts, Catharz? I like my alignment shifts, but I coulden't fit any more in. For a no-shift build, Singh rager could work. DMG page 214, left side... "One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets" You may want to switch something around there. Cheers Otto :) I'm not sure what youre talking about. I'm listing a pair of gauntlets, why would I want to shift something around? Dragon Mag. That's a bit low. A No-dragon build would work too, just not as well at low levels. I didn't really care to alter the build, which was created with the gaming groups I play with in mind. Jeremy is welcome to use Dragon material too. In fact, it is almost elementry to come up with a build that can nullify a large portion of the damage output of the one I created, but I'm not sure if that is enough.
JosephKell 01-26-05, 10:48 PM	Sorry if I offended, but it irks me to see Dragon Mag stuff brought into threads like this. As a personal opinion I'm not a huge fan of it but that aside, what really bothers me is that I've yet to actually play in a game where the DM will allow anything from it. I think that my experience is not uncommon either. Core stuff can be assumed for all games. The Races & Complete stuff can be assumed for a lot of them though not all.Are you aware that in Living Greyhawk Year 4 you are allowed to start taking a feat out of two of the Dragon Magazines but NOT from the Complete or Races series (for those you have to wait until level 3).3rd party publications and Dragon Mag are pretty spotty though.Wow.. if Dragon is spotty... I imagine everything by those authors is questionable too... like the Player's Handbook... Dungeon Master's Guide... If you haven't caught on, the regular writers for Dragon Magazine are also the same people that wrote many of the "respectable" books. Heck, a lot of the stuff in the Complete Series devued in Dragon.I'm interested to see where this thread goes but the more ... less commonly accepted ... stuff that gets put into comparison builds the less relevance it has. To me anyway.Dragon is commonly accepted. Now if your objection had been based on availability of Dragon Magazine that would be one thing (a feeble thing, but a thing).
Psifon 01-27-05, 12:51 AM	<rant on> Dragon magazine is nothing but a bunch of poorly thought out, unplaytested ideas that have been slapped together to meet the publishing deadline. I don't allow players to use it in my campaign, and I don't know any DM's who do. Unfortuanately, many of the hardcovers are almost as bad, but most of these are legal in the groups I have played in. The problem with the hard covers is that about 2/3 of the pages are either worthless flavor text or new, and irrelevant races that they invent for the sole purpose of making their page count. I really wish they would come out with an encyclopedia of feats, spells and magic items like they did at the end of 2E. Unfortuanately, I don't think they will untill they are ready to publish 4E. <rant off> Look, if you want to build a better tank, why not enumerate all the things that can help you BE a better tank. There are two things that I am seeing on this thread which we are (more or less) in consensus about. A) First, let's define a tank as any character who is "Built Ford Tough." One who, through a combination of factors can take attack after attack, either because he can avoid getting hit, or because he can soak the damage. Assuming this property, it really doesn't matter HOW this goal is achieved. B) Further, let's assume a tank can fulfill the role of "wall that walks like a man." So that he can act as the focal point of combat and so that no one can EASILY get past him to the soft underbelly of the party. Sure there will always be situations (a good DM will make sure there are situations) where the wizard gets sacked once in a while. But that said, let's just agree that this role needs to be met to qualify as "tank" Ok, now concentrating on these two things, let's list all the ways you can do this, and then a few of the more important sub-categories for doing this. A) SOAKING ATTACKS: High AC - What are the best armors out there, and what materials do you make them out of? What are the best ways to achieve the best type of armor? High HP - Pretty straightforward, but how do you maximize this? Good con is a must. What are some good/cheep ways of getting better con? what are some good/cheep ways of getting Temporary HP? What are some good/cheep ways of getting special abilities that functiong like HP (I'm thinking deathless frenzy here) Damage Reduction - What are the best places to get this? What types of DR stack? As far as I know, only the roll with it feat stacks with any other type of DR. Are there any others? What are some good ways to achieve this both in build and in equipment? Other defense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same defensive results as a "true tank" by dancing around the battlefield or similar unconventional methods. B) THE WALKING WALL: Battlefield controll - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that make for some good battlefield controll? Kill-O-death - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that allow you to kill enemies before they get past you? Other Offense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same offensive results as a "true tank" by befuddling foes or similar unconventional methods. NOTE: Finally, let's limit ourselves to basic combat shitck. If you start pulling magic into the thing, than anyone who can cast a wall of force is a "tank", and clearly that is not what we mean here. If there is some readilly available magical mo-jo that meets one of the above functions, fine, but it needs to be available for every round in at least one combat during the day, OK? See, now if we put aside the bickering and focus on these questions, this can be a definitive thread for building a tank. If we can get this thing going, we can start the thread over, in a condensed form for posterity's sake. Let's get to work people! Oh, and Jeremymc, I'm waiting for that penguin comment ;)
cultjake 01-27-05, 01:15 AM	Yeah, lets see some builds. I'd like for this thread to make it to the Library.
Nazzareth 01-27-05, 03:34 AM	Like I said before its how and when to use karmic strike, the Aoo granted by it does not have to be used to deals damage to your foe, you can sunder, trip or disarm with them. This can a good way to limit the number of attacks your foe can throw against you, if they hit on their first attack and you sunder, trip or disarm them you could disrupt their attack routine making the rest of their attacks fail. Anyway the best one to use karmic strike would be the Dwarven Defender with the 12DR. One question about Aoo they occur before the event that triggers them is completed right? So how does this work with Karmic strike?
catharz 01-27-05, 04:07 AM	One question about Aoo they occur before the event that triggers them is completed right? So how does this work with Karmic strike? They occur before the attack actually hits. Which means that (depending upon what you do) you can make the attack never actually land. Tripping can work for that, as can some bullrushes, or just outright killing your foe.
catharz 01-27-05, 04:12 AM	<rant on> Dragon magazine is nothing but a bunch of poorly thought out, unplaytested ideas that have been slapped together to meet the publishing deadline. I don't allow players to use it in my campaign, and I don't know any DM's who do. Unfortuanately, many of the hardcovers are almost as bad, but most of these are legal in the groups I have played in. The problem with the hard covers is that about 2/3 of the pages are either worthless flavor text or new, and irrelevant races that they invent for the sole purpose of making their page count. I really wish they would come out with an encyclopedia of feats, spells and magic items like they did at the end of 2E. Unfortuanately, I don't think they will untill they are ready to publish 4E. <rant off> Look, if you want to build a better tank, why not enumerate all the things that can help you BE a better tank. There are two things that I am seeing on this thread which we are (more or less) in consensus about. A) First, let's define a tank as any character who is "Built Ford Tough." One who, through a combination of factors can take attack after attack, either because he can avoid getting hit, or because he can soak the damage. Assuming this property, it really doesn't matter HOW this goal is achieved. B) Further, let's assume a tank can fulfill the role of "wall that walks like a man." So that he can act as the focal point of combat and so that no one can EASILY get past him to the soft underbelly of the party. Sure there will always be situations (a good DM will make sure there are situations) where the wizard gets sacked once in a while. But that said, let's just agree that this role needs to be met to qualify as "tank" Ok, now concentrating on these two things, let's list all the ways you can do this, and then a few of the more important sub-categories for doing this. A) SOAKING ATTACKS: High AC - What are the best armors out there, and what materials do you make them out of? What are the best ways to achieve the best type of armor? High HP - Pretty straightforward, but how do you maximize this? Good con is a must. What are some good/cheep ways of getting better con? what are some good/cheep ways of getting Temporary HP? What are some good/cheep ways of getting special abilities that functiong like HP (I'm thinking deathless frenzy here) Damage Reduction - What are the best places to get this? What types of DR stack? As far as I know, only the roll with it feat stacks with any other type of DR. Are there any others? What are some good ways to achieve this both in build and in equipment? Other defense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same defensive results as a "true tank" by dancing around the battlefield or similar unconventional methods. B) THE WALKING WALL: Battlefield controll - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that make for some good battlefield controll? Kill-O-death - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that allow you to kill enemies before they get past you? Other Offense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same offensive results as a "true tank" by befuddling foes or similar unconventional methods. NOTE: Finally, let's limit ourselves to basic combat shitck. If you start pulling magic into the thing, than anyone who can cast a wall of force is a "tank", and clearly that is not what we mean here. If there is some readilly available magical mo-jo that meets one of the above functions, fine, but it needs to be available for every round in at least one combat during the day, OK? See, now if we put aside the bickering and focus on these questions, this can be a definitive thread for building a tank. If we can get this thing going, we can start the thread over, in a condensed form for posterity's sake. Let's get to work people! Oh, and Jeremymc, I'm waiting for that penguin comment ;) The build I posted relies on BoED, Complete warrior and the PHB for all of it's important stuff. Namely not dying from damage, having no AC, being able to power attack for 68 points of damage, dealing back 1/2 of the melee damage he takes, and being able to make an AoO whenever he gets hit. If you choose not to see that then your knee-jerk, reactionary, and innane ranting about Dragon magazine is not only unfounded but born purely out of willful ignorance.
Nazzareth 01-27-05, 04:12 AM	So a sunder or disarm against the offending weapon will negate the damage. If karmic strike works like this it becomes one powerfull feat if used this way.
catharz 01-27-05, 04:15 AM	So a sunder or disarm against the offending weapon will negate the damage. Assuming the character decides not to resolve the attack unarmed (which would generally provoke another AoO :smirk:
Nazzareth 01-27-05, 04:21 AM	Thanx Well I would not try to disarm or sunder an unarmed attack is kind of pointless. Another question if someone has multiple attacks with a weapon and you disarm or sunder the weapon on the first attack can they finish their full attack or would it be disrupted.
GrolubFranco 01-27-05, 04:46 AM	They occur before the attack actually hits. Which means that (depending upon what you do) you can make the attack never actually land. Tripping can work for that, as can some bullrushes, or just outright killing your foe. I believe if you trip him, he would still have the possibility (if within range) to hit you from a prone position with a -4 penalty to Attack bonus. High AC - As I said, Mechanus armor is the best one for a tank. Itīs cheap (1750gps) and gives a +10 bonus, and for a dwarf you keep your 20" move. High HP - Good Con and Deepwarden in synergy with Defensive Stance. Gives you a total of +6 AC. Damage Reduction - Dwarven defender, or the Psionic power that gives you DR 15/- altough you cannot attack. Battlefield controll - EW (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and enlarge spell for a total of 20" reach. Kill-O-death - Doesnīt kill much quickly I believe since Spiked chain just gives small ammount of damage. I would say a good build would be: Rng 1/Ftr4 /Wiz 1 /RnS 1 / DpW 2 / DwD 10 The wizard and runesmith lvl are there purely for the enlarges and boast to Will save (big problem amongst tanks), and allowing to cast enlarges while in heavy armor. Normally tanks donīt focus on achieving a good will save, and the next you see, they are controlled by the DM.
paradoxmage 01-27-05, 05:43 AM	There are two things that I am seeing on this thread which we are (more or less) in consensus about. A) First, let's define a tank as any character who is "Built Ford Tough." One who, through a combination of factors can take attack after attack, either because he can avoid getting hit, or because he can soak the damage. Assuming this property, it really doesn't matter HOW this goal is achieved. B) Further, let's assume a tank can fulfill the role of "wall that walks like a man." So that he can act as the focal point of combat and so that no one can EASILY get past him to the soft underbelly of the party. Sure there will always be situations (a good DM will make sure there are situations) where the wizard gets sacked once in a while. But that said, let's just agree that this role needs to be met to qualify as "tank" My Tank is this and more. I listed it on page 1 but here it is again. Monk 2nd/Fighter 2nd/Hexblade 3rd/Dervish 8th/Tempest 5th BaB=+19 HD: 2d8+18d10 3 free monk feats and 2 free fighter feats Evasion and mettle Arcane resistance and curse Incredible Two-Weapon fighting abilities Faster movement +5 to Ac and Wis to AC spring attack and Two-weapon spring attack Saves: 13/11/13
Otto the Bugbear 01-27-05, 07:08 AM	I'm not sure what youre talking about. I'm listing a pair of gauntlets, why would I want to shift something around? Maybe you created the build in such a hurry that you can't remember exactly what equipment you gave him. Maybe you wanted to post an "I'm right" response without actually looking. To spell it out for you.... -Locked gauntlet +1 Fierce [A&E] (+3, 18,000 gp), Gauntlet of rust (11,500 gp) is a pair of gauntlets. Then, just three lines later you have... • Two gloves: Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp). See how that violates the rule I quoted earlier? "One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets". With a pair of gauntlets and a pair of gloves, you exceed the maximum allowed by the RAW. Now, I did give you the benefit of the doubt before I posted. I thought, maybe he combined magic items and incresed the prices as described in the DMG. But no. Now you're doubling the allowable magic items worn for that area of the body (hands). That's not even really such a big deal. You could either move the gloves of dex to a different slot and solve your problem, or give the gauntlets +6 dex (see DMG for rules concerning this). The big deal lies in responding without thought, without checking, and without explanation. Could I be wrong about this? Yes. If you think I am, please show why. This ought to be good and I'm always up for learning some obscure rule I have either forgotten or never knew in the first place. So do me (us) a favor, if you feel you can have both a pair of gloves and a pair of gauntlets on this build, show why that is. Without changing something, explaining this rules violation, or removing one part of the equipment in question, your build becomes invalid for this comparison. Cheers Otto :)
TalinXT 01-27-05, 09:18 AM	This is soemthign I made up a while ago a lot of the Races of Stone feats work extremely well for what we're doing here. fighter8/Psychicwarrior14 Race: Dwarf Feats: 1.Combat Expertise, Deflective Armor 2.Power Attack 3.Imp. Shield Bash 4. Mage Slayer 5. Two Weapon Fighting 6. Hold the Line 7. Dodge 8. Karmic Strike 9. Heavy Armor Optimization 10. Pierce Magical Concealment 11. Pierce MAgical Protection 12. Imp. Two Weapon Fighting 13. Greater HEavy Armor Optimization 14. Overchannel 15. Talented 16. Expanded Knowledge(Schism) 17. Psionic Dodge 18. Focused Shield 19. Psionic Meditation This build can be nasty in the AC department and the psionic powers can get you plenty of DR and HP to go around the problem of course is MAD MAD MAD You'll need plenty of Dex to get twf and at least 13 in everyother score. you could replace the two weapon fighting line with soemthing else of preference ill work on something without it later. The idea behind this is to simply walk up and wade into meelee with powers going and a psionic focus to boost your ac. Mageslayer and the mageslaying feats are there to bust through magical buffs and to harass casters who cant simply dimension door away from you. This build gives plenty of options like going total defensive for a heavy duty AC for dealing with those heavy hitting thigns to karmic strike for thsoe thing that have a hard time hitting anyway and just need to be killed quickly. This build originally focused on beating people to death with a shield though it can easily be adapted for other weapon styles like spiked chains reach weapons and their ilk.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 01:40 PM	Just out of curiosity, how do you get DR 12/- (or 15/- or 18/-)? Are you polymorphing into a creature with that much DR? Or using magic items or spells? Or using templates like mineral warrior? Or taking feats like Roll with It (Savage Species?) many, many times? Or a combination of the above? Well, full 10 levels of Defender nets you DR of 9/-, and Adamantine Heavy Armour nets you another 3/-. I just add them together for the purposes of convenience. You can take "Roll with it" from 3.0 Savage Species a couple of times to up your DR. Alternately, you can build a Dwarven Militant Druid Variant (Unearthed Arcana) that trades spellcasting levels for increased BAB, then take levels of Variant Druid instead of plain fighter, then a level of Nature's Warrior (another 3/- DR). The problem is that the more of these things you do, the less apt at melee combat you will be (less FEATS). So it's a trade off. The more you tank-up, the less you orient specifically to dealing damage.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 01:46 PM	No, it doesn't. You need to remember Polymorph - Polymorphing into a Sun Giant(MMII) is possible for a Chameleon build at 12th level. If the Chameleon has a +4 Item of Str and a +4 Chameleon Bonus, then that's a total of a 45 Strength and Huge at 12th level. With the +4 of Improved Trip and the ability to Quick Draw a new Tripping weapon every time I fail and have to drop, the monsters you listed should likely be tripped every round. Totally UNtrue on all counts. Polymorph limits the HD of the form you can become to your CASTER level with a maximum of 15 HIT DICE!!! I assume the Sun Giant had some ungodly HD, like 25 or so... so on it's face, this build doesn't work. And even if you COULD, quick draw only allows you to draw a weapon as a free action instead of a move-eq action, and I was under the assumption that you can only perform one free action every round.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 01:52 PM	You know, survivability is important, but in a REAL LIFE tank, once the armor is pierced, the crew is usually dead, so as you can see, hit points are probably more important than AC in a true tank build. In response to that, I most something as germane to the discussion: 1 .Some penguin species spend as much as 75% of their lives in the sea. Some species spend several months at a time at sea, only coming ashore for breeding and molting. The Fiordland crested penguins sometimes grow barnacles on their tails, an indication that they are at sea for long periods. 2. Swimming speeds generally are not well known. The fastest swimmers belong to the genus Aptenodytes. Emperors have been observed swimming 14.4 kph (8.9 mph), though they normally do not exceed 10.8 kph (6.7 mph). Both kings and chinstraps have been recorded at 8.6 kph (5.3 mph). 3. To maintain streamlining with least resistance while swimming under water, a penguin keeps its head hunched into its shoulders. The feet are pressed close to the body against the tail to aid in steering. 4. Penguin wings are paddlelike flippers used for swimming. The motion of the flippers resembles the wing movements of flying birds, giving penguins the appearance of flying through the water. The wing and breast muscles are well developed, to propel the penguins through water, a medium much denser than air. 5. Having solid, dense bones helps penguins overcome buoyancy. 6. Although it is more energy efficient for penguins to swim under water than at the water surface, they must come to the surface to breathe. They compromise by "porpoising" - leaping in and out of the water, like dolphins or porpoises.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 01:57 PM	(aoo'S) occur before the attack actually hits. Which means that (depending upon what you do) you can make the attack never actually land. Tripping can work for that, as can some bullrushes, or just outright killing your foe. Actually, the text of Karmic Strike specifically states that you get an Aoo AFTER you get hit.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 02:08 PM	Well cath, it IS a hell of a Berzerker Build. With the notable exception that I don't think you get any benefits from Bardic Music when you're frenzied. And the "Resin Spiked Chain" only works if you're Kaorti. And even then, I think it only works on BLADED weapons. So that's doubly uncertain. And the alignment shifts, which have already been commented upon. And the fact that I don't build with Dragon, FR, or Arms and Equipment. The problem with Dragon and all of those other splatbooks isn't that each individual feat isn't thought out and playtested. It's just that they provide an almost infinite "splat-potential" where 6 feats or items that are individually balanced are strung together to form a monstrosity. That's why I don't like using Dragon or AE. I like to limit the "splatbook" phenomenon. But I'm certain I can whip together a rival tank with just core builds. FR is just because I don't like FR. The whole world pisses me off... It's so smarmy and full-of-itself. And actually, I'm not sure whether you can have a pair of Gloves and Gauntlets. I seem to recall that they're two separate item slots. I think Catharz may be right about that. I think the violation is in having listed THREE gloves. Which is unwearable... Unless you want to EXPAND your notion of where a male barbarian can wear a glove..... :)
Mommy was an Orc 01-27-05, 03:14 PM	:rolleyes: Sun Giant has 13HD(Monster Manual II) and a 37 strength. You can take as many free actions as you want per round, though the DM is within his rights to limit unreasonable ones. Drawing weapons is usually considered one of the reasonable ones - otherwise there's no way to throw more than 3 weapons on the 1st round and 1 weapon thereafter. Totally UNtrue on all counts. Polymorph limits the HD of the form you can become to your CASTER level with a maximum of 15 HIT DICE!!! I assume the Sun Giant had some ungodly HD, like 25 or so... so on it's face, this build doesn't work. And even if you COULD, quick draw only allows you to draw a weapon as a free action instead of a move-eq action, and I was under the assumption that you can only perform one free action every round.
solbergb 01-27-05, 03:15 PM	getting back to the idea of filling many tankly roles, I think the warchanter has some really good possibilities, especially level 9+. To take it by the numbers, based roughly on a "Complete+Core" book only mix ) SOAKING ATTACKS: >High AC - What are the best armors out there, and what materials do you >make them out of? What are the best ways to achieve the best type of >armor? Fullplate+12 dex+tower shield. Tower shield has other uses, it makes it easier for example to stand over a downed comrade and convince the GM you are really blocking the enemy or the path to the weak victim to the enemy ray attack or whatever. It's also a flotation device if you fall overboard (45lb of wood...) Later when you have oodles of cash, making it mithril and adding +4 gloves of dex boosts it a bit further. Or you can go with adamantium, but that's a different category. A druid or cleric cohort can help too, buffing you with nat armor and deflection stuff until you can get your own. Warchanter has no edge here, except that all his class abilities work fine in heavy armor. Any bardic remnant spells should be verbal only...I'm going with Swift Exp Retreat and Feather Fall, with light in the cantrip slot (plus read magic, mending and prestidigitation for maintaining the armor in downtime) My character went with dwarf because the racial stuff helps in almost all categories. In this category...+4 AC vs giants tends to even out some of their BAB+1/hit die. Feats and skills - 5 ranks tumble from the bard levels, combat expertise to qualify for Warchanter and that's about it. Maybe improved combat expertise post level 10. >High HP - Pretty straightforward, but how do you maximize this? Good con is >a must. What are some good/cheep ways of getting better con? what are >some good/cheep ways of getting Temporary HP? What are some >good/cheep ways of getting special abilities that functiong like HP (I'm >thinking deathless frenzy here) Well...Dwarf of course. One barb level so I can shift from singing/expertising to raging (more hp, but really dump AC since the tower shield usually goes away in the transition and expertise/defensive fighting also goes away). The real power of the warchanter in this category is Inspire Toughness. On demand you can pump up the entire party with +2 temp hp/level and at higher levels they get diehard too. Not only are you a hitpoint machine, you beef up the other guys too. Which is important because the other class abilities encourage the party to dump AC. >Damage Reduction - What are the best places to get this? What types of >DR stack? As far as I know, only the roll with it feat stacks with any other >type of DR. Are there any others? What are some good ways to achieve this >both in build and in equipment? Adamantium armor is an option of course, but Warchanter has another nifty little trick after level 9. Ironskin chant gives anybody within 30' (including yourself) DR 5- for a swift action that you weren't going to use for anything else anyway. It does burn a bardsong/use and only lasts a round, but it is something to consider. It probably stacks with adamantium armor, but check with your DM. >Other defense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a >truely brilliant way of achieving the same defensive results as a "true tank" >by dancing around the battlefield or similar unconventional methods. Inspire Awe can really damage the ability of an enemy to do anything useful if they're mostly minions. If it is a single nasty BDF, intimidate has some of the same effects as fighting defensively if it succeeds, (-2 to enemy attacks) it stacks with other fear effects (kiai shout perhaps, or an ongoing inspire awe) and unlike fighting defensively the enemy doesn't look at you and shrug, ignoring you and going on to fight somebody dangerous. Saving throws...you can't ignore it. With Barb1,fighter2, bard2, warchanter 10 you get adequate saves, especially with the dwaf bonuses but they aren't fantastic. You'll have very good fort saves, important for someone perceived as dangerous by the opposition for magical reasons, but the will saves are only helped a bit by the bard levels. >B) THE WALKING WALL: >Battlefield controll - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic >items, feats and/or class abilities that make for some good battlefield controll? Warchanter doesn't have much here aside from the fear-oriented Inspire Awe. A Dwarf can be a decent tripper, etc but I didn't got that route with my character. The main thing is that some of the class abilities are so dangerous (inspire awe, for example) that you force people to try to take you out. >Kill-O-death - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, >feats and/or class abilities that allow you to kill enemies before they get >past you? The money ability here for Warchanter is Inspire Recklessness. It lets you dump AC = to BAB and turn it into attack roll, which means power attack full always hits on most targets, large attack sequences hit on the lower iterative attacks and high AC targets get hit anyway. Not only that, Inspire Recklesness works for the whole party. It can also be combined with inspire courage at level 10, and at level 15 (L10 warchanter) you can give everybody the highest BAB in the area, which means if they all have power attack, even the wizards can smack things around with several iterative attacks doing massive damage with cheap staves. My guy works with rage and inspire courage in the lower levels to get a weaker version of this effect, but at level 9 pretty much is oriented around getting the whole party dumping defense for offense and fixing the damage they take with temp hitpoint infusions or perhaps wading in himself if they're doing ok. You have very good synergy with the Divine Power cleric...you do the bardsongs while he's casting his divine power and quickened divine favor and with his boosted BAB and bonuses from bardsongs and divine spells, he'll make extremely good use of the inspire recklessness and courage that you provide. >Other Offense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a >truely brilliant way of achieving the same offensive results as a "true tank" >by befuddling foes or similar unconventional methods. Again, at level 12ish, Inspire Awe is just amazing. But it is really the ability and potential to turn your entire party into frenzied berserker/shock trooper equivalents with the right chants that is the key to the class. That innocent looking dwarf in fullplate turns everybody into rampaging killing machines...including himself which can be a shock if you've been ignoring him because he sings and fights defensively. If your party shifts around (as mine does) you have to be able to do it yourself if you aren't surrounded by potential warriors. Dipping into races of destiny, inspire spellpower can be handy for the caster oriented party. If you're the only tank, you stand there in your heavy armor pumping yourself up for a round, then you probably dump the armor class, rage and start hacking. Which means you'll want power attack for sure, maybe cleave...but not much else since your songs can turn anyone into a formidable warrior, even you with your -1 BAB hit from the bard level and multiple attribute distribution issues. Here's the full build, based around retirement at level 16 and 28 point build Dwarf St14 Dex12 Con16 Int14 Wis8 Cha12 Warchanter requires WF and Combat Expertise L1 Barbarian1: WF Dwarf Waraxe, Rage, Fast movement L2 Fighter1: Combat Expertise L3 Bard1: Extra Rage (or power attack earlier) 5 rank tumble L4 Bard2: Swift Xp Retreat/Feather fall for L1 spells L5 Fighter1: Power Attack (or Goad or Cleave if you have PA) L6 WC1: Extra Bardsong (or cleave or goad or spellpower song) (inspire tough is only 2 points, not very useful yet) L7 WC2: L8 WC3: L9 WC4: Inspire Recklessness (Leadership or Ironskin Chant or extra song) L10 WC5: get 2 bardsongs off in 1 std action L11 WC6: grants diehard with inspire tough L12 WC7: Inspire Awe, (another of the above feats) L13 WC8: Singing Shout? (not very useful) L14 WC9: L15 WC10 Inspire Legion, pick another feat from above L16 ?? Probably another bard PRC, or maybe sorcerer to get some more V spells from the arcane list. CV has some good ones.
Jeremymc 01-27-05, 03:26 PM	Wow. Sun Giant form is rather broken. But go ahead, polymorph your character into a Sun Giant. I'll be standing there with my sackful of "Dwarven Thrower" hammers, waiting to inflict triple damage on every hit. Provided you assume the "type" of the creature using polymorph. Which I seem to recall that you do. For every "move" there is a "countermove" which is why discussions of tactics do not get us anywhere. Besides, making a type of character whose very life is staked on his needing to polymorph into other forms (and not have those forms continuously, and easily, dispelled) seems to me a very poor build. Remember, we're not discussing "what would you do if..." tactics. This is a character thread. And Warchanter isn't a bad build... It's just that you have to spend your action using Bardic music instead of focussing on the melee at hand.
Ricter 01-27-05, 03:52 PM	Wow. Sun Giant form is rather broken. I digress, but that isn't the point of this thread. But go ahead, polymorph your character into a Sun Giant. I'll be standing there with my sackful of "Dwarven Thrower" hammers, waiting to inflict triple damage on every hit. Provided you assume the "type" of the creature using polymorph. Which I seem to recall that you do. For every "move" there is a "countermove" which is why discussions of tactics do not get us anywhere. Counting on being able to do something yourself(in this case polymorph) is a lot more reliable than being able to count on your opponent being something(a giant). I can rely on being able to cast polymorph and use it in most situations, and in the few situations it won't work (dispel, antimagic field) require opponents to spend a round reacting and risk me having preventive measures already in place(ring of dispelling). Just because a countermove exists doesn't invalidate a tactic unless the countermove is common. Look at druids, most of them rely on wildshape for combat prowess, which would be stopped by similar things as polymorph(IIRC, wildshape can be dispelled).
Mommy was an Orc 01-27-05, 06:27 PM	You were talking about how things being 40-50s strength and huge/garguantuan is a problem for high level characters trying to trip them. Being able to turn into a Sun Giant with an eventual +17 Strength means it isn't. In any case, I personally think you'd be slaughtered if you tried the Dwarven Throwers trick. Remember, reach of 30' means you're going to be taking an AoO for every hammer toss and I'm guessing I have roughly +20 over your strength roll. We're likely talking about 7 attacks, 4 of which are at better than fullBAB for every 1 Hammer you manage to throw. Possibly 14 and 8. And if that wasn't bad enough, you're not doing triple damage, you're only doing an additional +2d8 damage. I like those odds... But go ahead, polymorph your character into a Sun Giant. I'll be standing there with my sackful of "Dwarven Thrower" hammers, waiting to inflict triple damage on every hit. Remember, we're not discussing "what would you do if..." tactics. This is a character thread.
Otto the Bugbear 01-27-05, 06:33 PM	And actually, I'm not sure whether you can have a pair of Gloves and Gauntlets. I seem to recall that they're two separate item slots. I think Catharz may be right about that. It's really quite simple. RTFM. I've already provided a book and page number for reference. A D&D character cannot wear 2 gauntlets and a pair of gloves. They both go on the hands. Now, in real life history, gauntlets were typically worn with gloves underneath to protect the skin (chafing and pinching) and provide a little padding. But, that has nothing to do with the rules of this game. Cheers Otto :)
Kuroi Kenshi 01-27-05, 07:02 PM	Swift action = free action that is limited to one per round, as described in the mini's book and complete arcane. Free actions = unlimited. If there were any limits on free actions, there wouldn't be swift actions or the text on swift and free actions would be different.
JosephKell 01-27-05, 08:25 PM	Mageslayer + Pierce Magical Protection could be construed as being able to ignore the Natural Armor bonus from using a spell like Polymorph. Sure it is one attack to do that, but on a success you sort of dispel every magic effect that gives a Defense bonus (magic items get surpressed for a number of rounds that escapes me right now). So that one attack ends the duration of that Polymorph Spell and deals damage. And if the target (Wizard) did turn into a Sun Giant, it is an attack on a Defense that is about 9 or 10 (size penalty and Dex Mod are all that is left) and it is with your full attack bonus! Sounds like a terrific time to perform a Power Attack. Not all Polymorphs are subject to this, just those that confer even a +1 Natural Armor bonus (which is pretty much anything worth turning into). Oh yeah, Wildshape is a class feature of Polymorph, so it too is subject to dismissal via Pierce Magical Protection. It is too bad Pierce Magical Protection doesn't dispel other spells (Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, Tenser's Transformation, and Righteous Might are safe). But hey, if you still want to talk about Polymorphing Tanks, take it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=339) and if you want to talk about Dexterity Warriors here is a link (http://boards1.wizards.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=339). Have fun.
catharz 01-27-05, 09:53 PM	Maybe you created the build in such a hurry that you can't remember exactly what equipment you gave him. Maybe you wanted to post an "I'm right" response without actually looking. To spell it out for you.... is a pair of gauntlets. Then, just three lines later you have... See how that violates the rule I quoted earlier? "One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets". With a pair of gauntlets and a pair of gloves, you exceed the maximum allowed by the RAW. Now, I did give you the benefit of the doubt before I posted. I thought, maybe he combined magic items and incresed the prices as described in the DMG. But no. Now you're doubling the allowable magic items worn for that area of the body (hands). That's not even really such a big deal. You could either move the gloves of dex to a different slot and solve your problem, or give the gauntlets +6 dex (see DMG for rules concerning this). The big deal lies in responding without thought, without checking, and without explanation. Could I be wrong about this? Yes. If you think I am, please show why. This ought to be good and I'm always up for learning some obscure rule I have either forgotten or never knew in the first place. So do me (us) a favor, if you feel you can have both a pair of gloves and a pair of gauntlets on this build, show why that is. Without changing something, explaining this rules violation, or removing one part of the equipment in question, your build becomes invalid for this comparison. Cheers Otto :) Thanks for telling me, I had not noticed that (must be from a previous revision). Just replace the gloves with a +6 Belt of perfect excellence [MHB].
SuperThread 01-27-05, 10:09 PM	(IIRC, wildshape can be dispelled). No, it can't. And dispels aren't rare at high levels.
Mommy was an Orc 01-27-05, 10:50 PM	Sure. But that's wrong. Pierce Magical Protection doesn't work on any magical items. Just on spells or spells from triggers. So +5 Magical Chainmail is still +5 Chainmail. And you need to inflict a melee attack that does damage. Which means getting past the trip radius of 30'. Not impossible, but that's going to require a bunch of feats or get this, Tumble...Even a Fighter 20's feats are not infinite. We're also not talking about a wizard or for that matter a gish - we're simply talking about a tank-like chameleon build who does the Combat and Arcane Focus. Say Barbarian 2/Warlock 4/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Horizon Walker 1(Desert)(Warlock 2-4 are at the end of the build when the abiiity to take 10 on UMD is near priceless for a Tank). Feats are Able Learner, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, WF: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Expert Tactician, Endurance, Quick Draw, Brutal Throw and Still Spell. And some other feat. Not necessarily in that order. Maxxes out UMD, Listen, gets a good Spot score and has a 38 Strength/24 Dex/24 Con without the Polymorph in 28 point buy land(str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 8 are the starting values). The Warlock invocation for the 1st 17 levels is the one that gives Darkvision/See Invisibility all day, which is great for a tank who doesn't want to be surprised. Using only BAB, Str, Chameleon, and Weapon Focus, has a +35 to hit. That's without Polymorph, Rage(4/day), Extended Heroism, a Magical Weapon, or any of number of ways of getting slightly more bonus to hit. A BAB +20 with WF and GWF and a more typical 32 Strength is only going to have a +33. He can easily wear Mithril Heavy Armor if desired, as his arcane spells are mostly used for very long lasting buffs and he has Still Spell for the essential ones. In short, he's a tank by all the definitions and labels out there. Mageslayer + Pierce Magical Protection could be construed as being able to ignore the Natural Armor bonus from using a spell like Polymorph. Sure it is one attack to do that, but on a success you sort of dispel every magic effect that gives a Defense bonus (magic items get surpressed for a number of rounds that escapes me right now). So that one attack ends the duration of that Polymorph Spell and deals damage. And if the target (Wizard) did turn into a Sun Giant, it is an attack on a Defense that is about 9 or 10 (size penalty and Dex Mod are all that is left) and it is with your full attack bonus! Sounds like a terrific time to perform a Power Attack. But hey, if you still want to talk about Polymorphing Tanks, take it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=339) and if you want to talk about Dexterity Warriors here is a link (http://boards1.wizards.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=339). Have fun.
incubus 01-27-05, 11:09 PM	Mageslayer + Pierce Magical Protection could be construed as being able to ignore the Natural Armor bonus from using a spell like Polymorph. Weren't you all for the "posting specific counter tactics is not productive" post earlier? So what is this? Fact: Polymorph works against most enemies. Fact: There are things which counter it. Fact: Polymorph STILL works against most enemies. Now, for the constructive bit. In my estimation, a tank needs to be able to do the following: Tie up the enemy in lasting melee engagements. That's basically it. To do that, he MUST be mobile enough and dangerous enough to be a threat, OR he must be able to guarantee that he can tar-baby his foes. He MUST be tough enough to survive. If the tank is slow, foes can limit his contribution. If the tank is offensively weak, or cannot make his foes target him, foes can ignore him. If he dies, foes can ignore him. If he is charmed, dominated, paralysed etc , foes can ignore him. If foes are ignoring the tank, he is not doing his job.
Psifon 01-28-05, 12:31 AM	Well, full 10 levels of Defender nets you DR of 9/-, and Adamantine Heavy Armour nets you another 3/-. I just add them together for the purposes of convenience. You CANNOT do this. DR from different sources doesn't stack (DMG pg 292), the only excpetion to this I am aware of is the Roll With It feat.
solbergb 01-28-05, 12:32 AM	Wow. Sun Giant form is rather broken. And Warchanter isn't a bad build... It's just that you have to spend your action using Bardic music instead of focussing on the melee at hand. Correct. The most awkward thing about it is you can't expertise up your AC on the first round when you're busting out the chants. Which means you need damn good AC without the expertise if you want to do blocking stuff too....because ideally you want to chant and close, and then take advantage of the offensive aspects provided by the chant while full attacking. Which means you must endure a full attack. And have the mobility to close. And look like a credible threat. You shouldn't spend more than 1-2 rounds on the music, a lot depends on your party. In some parties you'll make everyone else so effective that it is worth going a second round of casting to toughen everybody up or make the enemy afraid or whatever. In other parties you have to do the heavy lifting yourself, which means the chanting is something to do instead of a single attack as you close. It's not a perfect build nor is it be-all and end-all of tanks, but the concept fills a lot of the tank roles nicely and it also has the kind of deceptive aspect to it..you look like a weenie expertise-fighter/bard type who spent on AC at the expense of everything else. You act like that in rounds 1-3 maybe, probably not longer. Then when they're sure they can ignore you to deal with your allies who are ripping them up, you get out your axe, rage and start cleaving. You can shift from invulnerable tank to damage dealer very quickly (in higher levels when you get multiple attacks, animating the tower shield to get it out of the way of the power attack is a must). You're only down 1 BAB, and your chants work just fine to get the attack roll as high as you want. Your "dead" levels are in the 6-8 range so you want your key feat trees done by L6, so you're a competent general tank until your songs come online at L9.
Psifon 01-28-05, 12:39 AM	Ok, so in the interest of getting this catalog going, I have combined several posts. Please add suggestions, and I will edit. When it gets big enough I will move it to it’s own thread. I am not including all possible info, only what I see as the best representation of the topic heading in it’s class. So for instance, I am not including light shields, only heavy shields under AC. Many categories are too broad for universal inclusion. Try to focus on things that are “tank-tastic.” I have not polled the whole thread yet (work in progress) Please include the source and a brief description of the ability gained by the item listed. Also, please include a description of the type of rule it is (weapon enhancement, class ability, etc.) DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES High AC - What are the best armors out there, and what materials do you make them out of? What are the best ways to achieve the best type of armor? Full Plate (PHB): +8 AC, +1 Dex, Armor Check –6, Heavy Armor Heavy Shield: +2 AC, -2 Armor Check Tower Shield: +4 AC, -10 Armor Check Animated Shield (DMG): Grants ability to wield 2 handed weapon and still have a shield. Mechanus Armor (Planar Handbook): +10 AC, +0 DEX Bonus, - 10 Armor Check, Heavy Armor with only 15’/10’ movement Tesselated Armor (Arms and Equipment Guide): +8 AC, + 1 Dex, -4 Armor Check, Medium Armor. Mithril (DMG): Adds +2 to Dex bonus, heavy armor becomes Medium, Medium armor becomes light Glassteel (Races of Faerun) Adds +2 to Dex bonus, heavy armor becomes Medium, Medium armor becomes light, 3/- DR to heavy armor. Nimbleness (Magic of Faerun) - +1 armor enhancement, grants +2 to Dex bonus of armor, and reduces armor check penalties by 1. Alter Self (PHB) : 2nd level spell, Form: Troglodyte - +6 Natural Armor Defensive Stance (DMG): Dwarven Defender Class Feature: Grants +4 Dodge bonus to AC High HP - Pretty straightforward, but how do you maximize this? Good con is a must. What are some good/cheep ways of getting better con? what are some good/cheep ways of getting Temporary HP? What are some good/cheep ways of getting special abilities that functiong like HP (I'm thinking deathless frenzy here) Defensive Stance (DMG): Dwarven Defender Class Feature - Grants +2 Con bonus to AC Rage (PHB): Barbarian Class Feature - Grants +4 Con, but a –2 AC Body Feader (Expanded Psionic Handbook): +3 Enhancement, grants Temporary HP equal to the crit damage delt. Damage Reduction - What are the best places to get this? What types of DR stack? As far as I know, only the roll with it feat stacks with any other type of DR. Are there any others? What are some good ways to achieve this both in build and in equipment? Adamantine (DMG) Grants DR 3/- to heavy armor. Glassteel (Races of Faerun) Adds +2 to Dex bonus, heavy armor becomes Medium, Medium armor becomes light, 3/- DR to heavy armor. Roll With It (Savage Species) Grants 2/- It’s effects stack with other sources and itself. Dwarven defender (DMG): Class ability grants DR 3/- at 6th level, and 6/- at 10th Barbarian (PHB): Class ability grants DR 1/- at 7th level, and increases by 1/- every 3 levels. Other defense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same defensive results as a "true tank" by dancing around the battlefield or similar unconventional methods. Evasion – monk or rogue levels, many PrC’s as well OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES: Battlefield control - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that make for some good battlefield controll? Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), Monkey Grip, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and Enlarge spell for a total of 25’ reach. Kill-O-death - What are some combinations of exotic weapons, magic items, feats and/or class abilities that allow you to kill enemies before they get past you? Mercurial Greatsword (Arms & Equipment) 2d6 with a x4 critical. Enlarge Spell (PHB): Grants large size to humanoids Expansion (Expanded Psionic’s Handbook): As Enlarge, but can grant 2 size increases to any type (personal range). Animated Shield (DMG): Grants ability to wield 2 handed weapon and still have a shield. Other Offense - This is a catch-all that is put there for anyone who has a truely brilliant way of achieving the same offensive results as a "true tank" by befuddling foes or similar unconventional methods. GrolubFranco, Where is the Deepwarden and what does it do? Also I don’t have my copy of the Underdark book, can someone give data on the mineral warrior please? solbergb, Where is the warchanter? Can you give the class benefits in the above format? Maybe a warchanter cohort is a must for a tank?
catharz 01-28-05, 01:19 AM	Correct. The most awkward thing about it is you can't expertise up your AC on the first round when you're busting out the chants. Which means you need damn good AC without the expertise if you want to do blocking stuff too....because ideally you want to chant and close, and then take advantage of the offensive aspects provided by the chant while full attacking. Which means you must endure a full attack. And have the mobility to close. And look like a credible threat. You shouldn't spend more than 1-2 rounds on the music, a lot depends on your party. In some parties you'll make everyone else so effective that it is worth going a second round of casting to toughen everybody up or make the enemy afraid or whatever. In other parties you have to do the heavy lifting yourself, which means the chanting is something to do instead of a single attack as you close. It's not a perfect build nor is it be-all and end-all of tanks, but the concept fills a lot of the tank roles nicely and it also has the kind of deceptive aspect to it..you look like a weenie expertise-fighter/bard type who spent on AC at the expense of everything else. You act like that in rounds 1-3 maybe, probably not longer. Then when they're sure they can ignore you to deal with your allies who are ripping them up, you get out your axe, rage and start cleaving. You can shift from invulnerable tank to damage dealer very quickly (in higher levels when you get multiple attacks, animating the tower shield to get it out of the way of the power attack is a must). You're only down 1 BAB, and your chants work just fine to get the attack roll as high as you want. Your "dead" levels are in the 6-8 range so you want your key feat trees done by L6, so you're a competent general tank until your songs come online at L9. On your action, you can sing, and then immediately Frenzy. Who cares if you take a full attack, it can't kill you, and you get to make an AoO every time you get hit. So the goal is to look as enticing of a target as possible. If you aren't wearing any armor and you're standing out front, you make for a pretty enticing target indeed. Especially if you wear a pointy hat :P The two things that will take this character down very quickly are a Wounding weapon and Elusive target.
Jeremymc 01-28-05, 01:41 AM	Yah, the chameleon makes a fine tank. The only problem being that you have to play the miserable pile of horse-snot known as the "chameleon" character class. Cripes. I never thought I'd hate anything more than the "cleric archer". But if there's one character class designed in the throes of a stoned hangover, it's the chameleon... Here's my entry to the build competition. It's a purely run-of-the mill build. Nothing fancy, nothing embellished, no wierd rules or splatbook crust. And since it's late, I'm not going to fluff it out as much as a good optimization can. Dwarf - 20 level build. Grant decent stats: str 17, dex 13, con 18, int 13, wis 16, cha 10 Ranger - for skill points. 1 Weapon Focus (dwarven throwing hammer) Fighter 2 Quick Draw 3 Endurance, Heavy Armour Optimization 4 xxx 5 Diehard 6 Dwarven Armour Proficiency 7 Toughness Exotic Weapon Master 8 Close combat shot ability. Defender (feats at 9, 12, 15, 18) 9-18 Brutal throw, Roll with it x 2 (DR 4/-), Greater Heavy Armour Opt. The defender ends his long progression with a total of DR 10/-. His total defensive benefits when in super-stance mode are +8 to AC, +2 str, +4 con, +2 to all saves. He cannot be flanked. Battlesmith 19 Adds wisdom to hammer damage (ranged and melee) 20 Whatever feat... Adds another +1 to AC of heavy armour. Gear (the important stuff. Also very simple): Adamantine Interlocking Plate, +5 "Stonemeld" (eberron). 123 000 gold. Gives +15 AC when character doesn't move any more than 5ft per round. Max Dex of +1, for 16 AC. Add on Greater Heavy Armour Opt for another +2 to AC. Add on another +1 AC for Battlesmith Prestige class, and we're up to +19 AC. Stonemeld is a permanent magical property that gives armour a DR of 5/-. Adamantine metal gives 3/-. Add that to the Defender's DR, and we've got a total of DR 18/- from the separate sources. Animated Tower Shield +5. Gives a total of +9 to AC, leaving both hands free for whatever... We're up to a +28 AC. Ring of deflection: +5 AC. +33 total. Amulet of natural armour: +5 AC. 38 total. Since the Dwarf has both hands free, he can hold, BUT NOT FIGHT WITH, a +5 Defending Dwarven Warhammer, transferring 5 more points of bonus "that stacks with all others" to his AC. +43 AC With his other hand, he's tossing about Returning dwarven throwing hammers, getting a full attack every round, without ever leaving his square, and STACKING his STRENGTH and WISDOM for damage potential. Let's say by 20th level, he has a STR of 30, and a WIS of 25. This means that every hammer he throws has an automatic damage bonus of +17, with no enhancements applied. This damage carries through into melee combat, too. It doesn't matter if you're close or far from this tank, his range and reach are completely identical. He doesn't even need to move from his square to lauch a full-attack with power attack. With the right 2 feats (brutal throw and wind-up), he can basically launch a "Pounce" from his square. __________________________________ So... let's recap. And let me remind you that this is the SIMPLEST build I could think of. It took me about 20 minutes, late at night, to whip up this piece of junk. AC: At least 53 from armour and assorted magic. At least 8 from Defender. So at base, an AC of 61. So that Chameleon "Tank" with the +35 to hit me would have to roll only an... ummm... well.... a 26. DR: 18/- total from assorted sources. Defender 6/-, Roll with it (2/-) x2, Adamantine armour 3/-, Stonemeld property 5/-. Attacks: 4 at full fighter BAB. Let's say +36/31/26/21 total (that's both ranged and melee). Hammer 1d6 +10 str +7 wis +5 magic +whatever else. (Can make ranged attacks with exotic throwing hammer at full BAB, thanks to Quick Draw, in melee combat with close combat shot). His CON will be ungodly in defensive stance, and can easily hit 350 HP, if not 400. ___________________ OTHER ASSORTED NERFS 1) Take levels of Variant Ranger. Trade Combat Style for Wild Shape, trade ranger feats for militant fighter feats. Then take Roll with it x2, and a level of Nature's Warrior for a total of 7/- DR. Adds one on to the base of my build with the loss of a feat or so. 2) Take a single level of cleric, and the feat "Roots of the mountain" which allows you to automatically succeed vs. trip attempts for a number of rounds equal to your character level. Add that on to a bunch of "returning" hammers, and you've got a character who's IMMUNE to trip and DISARM. No matter HOW strong or big the opponent is. 3) Don't bother taking defender levels at all. For a lower AC, you could easily take all fighter levels, and mix in the Roll with it feat. You could easily push this DR higher, but I figured it was best to go for the mix. 4) The Defender ability states that HE must remain rooted to his spot. It says NOTHING about the SPOT having to be rooted to the ground. Give this character "Boots of Tenser's Floating Disk", and he can designate the disk ITSELF as his defensive square. He then doesn't have to "move from his spot", but can just move himself around like a mobile artillery platform. Boots of teleportation also accomplish the same thing, but it's more debatable whether teleporting yourself constitutes "motion".
Psifon 01-28-05, 01:59 AM	DR: 18/- total from assorted sources. Defender 6/-, Roll with it (2/-) x2, Adamantine armour 3/-, Stonemeld property 5/-. This is wrong. The DR from these various sources do not stack. Only roll with it stacks. This character has a DR of 10/-
SuperThread 01-28-05, 02:10 AM	Jeremy, a character applies his dexterity modifier to ranged attacks, not his strength mod. This can be rectified by taking the Axethrower feat, though I have little doubt that you won't like that idea much, given your earlier statement about Faerunian material. YMMV.
talion09 01-28-05, 02:56 AM	Jeremy, a character applies his dexterity modifier to ranged attacks, not his strength mod. This can be rectified by taking the Axethrower feat, though I have little doubt that you won't like that idea much, given your earlier statement about Faerunian material. YMMV. I'm pretty sure he was using the feat from the Complete Adventurer that allows you to use your strength on ranged attacks. Brutal Throw? Think of it as a reverse Weapon Finesse for ranged attacks.
Jeremymc 01-28-05, 07:32 AM	This is wrong. The DR from these various sources do not stack. Only roll with it stacks. This character has a DR of 10/- I'm sorry... are you telling me that DR from armour doesn't stack with natural DR? Does armour bonus stack with Natural armour? How about a page reference?
Mommy was an Orc 01-28-05, 08:29 AM	Not a problem. As I noted, the +35 is from solely strength, chameleon bonus, and WF. You've got other problems. Also, my guy is a 28 point buy, not a 50 point buy monster you thought of as reasonable. You don't qualify for Dwarven Defender without Dodge for reference. Finally, you must be wielding a defender weapon for it to work - if you are, you're TWF'ing without a weapon and you can't actually hit me either, which is sad. Also, the Animated Tower Shield still subtracts 2 from your chance to hit. You're also apparently wearing an amulet of natural armor and wisdom and constitution and have read books of both wisdom and strength. Needless to say, you're likely out of money. Dwarven Defender Bonus isn't +8, it is +4, so that drops you down to 57 AC, but dodge kicks you up to 58 AC. Celestial Chain +5 = +12 AC, Animated Heavy +5 = +7 AC, Natural Armor +14 from Sun Giant, +5 Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor AC 8(+3 to chain) Extended Heroism = +2 Weapon +5 = +5 Trip Attack = Melee Touch. Hmm. AC, Str check quite a bit lower. So I trip you. Your check isn't that hot. Get +4 to hit. Expert Tactician = I hit you with the Trip Attack(tripped or not), so I get +2 to hit you. Haste +1 54 Strength instead of 38. +8 Huge instead of medium. -2 There's a few other bonuses to hit I can get, but notice that kicks me up to +53 to hit you. Which means I'm now hitting you with a 5/5/5/10/15/20. Every round you try to throw just one hammer, I get a melee touch attack at +47 to try to trip you. As I'm Huge, have Improved Trip, a 54 Strength and you're Medium, a Dwarf and have a 30 Strength, I will manage to trip you. Which gets me another attack at an 8. Meanwhile, I'm doing 3d6+33(str)+4(chameleon)+2(expert tact)+5(weapon)+whatever other enchantments I manage to put on it. So I'm hitting you an average of 4 times a round, doing an average of 36 hp of damage past your DR. i.e. you will die in about 3 rounds. AC: At least 53 from armour and assorted magic. At least 8 from Defender. So at base, an AC of 61. So that Chameleon "Tank" with the +35 to hit me would have to roll only an... ummm... well.... a 26.
Jeremymc 01-28-05, 10:55 AM	Okay, you're proposing the lamest, most one-sided battle that the world has ever seen between my average Dwarven Defender, and your uber-tooled-up-to-the-max Chameleon. OF COURSE YOU WILL WIN A FUNDAMENTALLY BIASED BATTLE. Not a problem. As I noted, the +35 is from solely strength, chameleon bonus, and WF. You've got other problems. Also, my guy is a 28 point buy, not a 50 point buy monster you thought of as reasonable. You'll notice, if you're smart, that though my guy has slightly better stats, I omitted the horribly broken treasure/advances that you gave yours. i.e. STR 38, dex 28, con 28.... Maybe you'll want to post how you gave this monster than many attribute bonuses. I'm assuming it has something to do with millions and millions of gold pieces? Riiiiight.... MY build was unreasonable. You don't qualify for Dwarven Defender without Dodge for reference. Hmmmm... I thought it was "Endurance, Toughness, Diehard" that you needed to be a Defender. I could be wrong though. I'll have to read it more carefully when I head home. Finally, you must be wielding a defender weapon for it to work - if you are, you're TWF'ing without a weapon and you can't actually hit me either, which is sad. Wrongo there chief. It never says that you actually have to be "attacking" with the defending weapon to gain its bonus to AC. And I can hold whatever I like in my off-hand, but so long as I'm NOT ATTACKING with it, it's NOT "two-weapon-fighting". Also, the Animated Tower Shield still subtracts 2 from your chance to hit. Hmm... That may be true. I forget the wording of "Tower Sheild Proficiency". In that case, make in an "Animated Extreme Steel Shield" at an AC of one less. That's still a +8 AC. You're also apparently wearing an amulet of natural armor and wisdom and constitution and have read books of both wisdom and strength. Needless to say, you're likely out of money. Gee... I'm sorry. Which one of us has the Unpolymorphed str 38, dex 28, con 28? I can't recall...... ummm.... Dwarven Defender Bonus isn't +8, it is +4, so that drops you down to 57 AC, but dodge kicks you up to 58 AC. 10th level Defender in Defensive Stance gets a total bonus to AC of +8. Celestial Chain +5 = +12 AC, Animated Heavy +5 = +7 AC, Natural Armor +14 from Sun Giant, +5 Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor AC 8(+3 to chain) Why do you assume that every form your character polymorphs into, my character cannot ALSO Polymorph into. My Dwarven Defender can ALSO become a sun giant to gain the +14 Natural Armour class. I'm only talking about differentiating characters on the basis of the things only the one individual can do. That's the only fair test. Everything else is just pointless. Extended Heroism = +2 I can do this too. Trip Attack = Melee Touch. Hmm. AC, Str check quite a bit lower. So I trip you. Your check isn't that hot. Get +4 to hit. Ummm... If I gave my DWARF the total bonus allowed to STR (+15), with a base STR of 20, that gives me a 35 STR. Plus my natural resistance to tripping. Plus an "enlarge spell". If I'm also polymorphed into sun giant form I get the +13 STR that you go on and on about. If I'm enlarged on top of that, I get another +4. Explain why your check is SOOO much higher than mine? And BTW. We're playing the "counter-tactics" game again, which if we play, I'll definitely win. One level of cleric, and one feat makes me IMMUNE TO TRIP ATTACKS. And if I'm facing your trip-based character, I'll be certain to do this. Expert Tactician = I hit you with the Trip Attack(tripped or not), so I get +2 hit you. That's not how Expert Tactician works. You aren't hitting me with a melee attack unless you SUCCEED in tripping me, and then hit me with your NEXT attack. The first attack is only a melee touch, which is a different for of attack. Haste +1 54 Strength instead of 38. +8 Huge instead of medium. -2. There's a few other bonuses to hit I can get, but notice that kicks me up to +53 to hit you. All abilities that I CAN ALSO GET. Which means I'm now hitting you with a 5/5/5/10/15/20. Every round you try to throw just one hammer, I get a melee touch attack at +47 to try to trip you. I busted this up before, so there's no need to go into it again. As I'm Huge, have Improved Trip, a 54 Strength and you're Medium, a Dwarf and have a 30 Strength, I will manage to trip you. Which gets me another attack at an 8. Again, biased assumptions that were completely demolished. Meanwhile, I'm doing 3d6+33(str)+4(chameleon)+2(expert tact)+5(weapon)+whatever other enchantments I manage to put on it. So I'm hitting you an average of 4 times a round, doing an average of 36 hp of damage past your DR. i.e. you will die in about 3 rounds. If I'm in "sun giant" form, like you, then I have a BASE AC of 75 now. Which means that you are hitting me much less, wasting your attacks trying to trip my character (you automatically fail thanks to Roots of the Mountain)... So since you cheerfully proposed tactics, my counter-tactics have rendered your character hitting MAYBE 3 times in a round (dubious), and dealing 36 MINUS 18 points of damage. 54 damage every round. That's piddly. And I can stand in one spot and throw hammers IN CLOSE COMBAT without provoking AoOs thanks to my level of Exotic Weapon Master. The point of this thread is NOT tactics VS counter-tactics, because that is a completely useless idea. Each of us will invent the ROSIEST scenarios for our characters to win in (though unfortunately for you, I seem to have utterly destroyed your tripping tactics to the point of absurdity). What we have to compare is individual abilities vs. individual abilities. Things that both characters CANNOT do.
solbergb 01-28-05, 02:30 PM	On your action, you can sing, and then immediately Frenzy. Who cares if you take a full attack, it can't kill you, and you get to make an AoO every time you get hit. So the goal is to look as enticing of a target as possible. If you aren't wearing any armor and you're standing out front, you make for a pretty enticing target indeed. Especially if you wear a pointy hat :P The two things that will take this character down very quickly are a Wounding weapon and Elusive target. When I said frenzy I was speaking figuratively. All he has is rage, and all his compatriots get is diehard+temp hitpoints plus the ability to dump their AC to raise their attack rolls. It's better to stick with the high AC while singing and then switch over when dealing damage. Unless you've worked some frenzied berserker levels in an already back-loaded build.
catharz 01-28-05, 02:42 PM	Unless you've worked some frenzied berserker levels in an already back-loaded build. Maybe you failed to notice that more than half of the build's levels are in frenzied berserker?
Mommy was an Orc 01-28-05, 03:01 PM	Okay... Look, you clearly don't read my posts at all, then go off on things that you make up. As a clear example, the stats below. When the polymorph or draconic polymorph my character casts multiple times per day, not the party wizard, something you can't do is dispelled, then I have stats of 38 str, 24 Con(which I said), and a 24 Dex. There's nothing that extreme about the 2nd 2 - merely requires 2 +6 items and 2 +4 books. 292K. The 38 Str requires a 16 base str, +5 from levelling, +5 from book, +6 from item, +6 from Chameleon. 173.5K. Leaves a little less than 300K for Armor, defensive items, and a good solid weapon. Perhaps the fact I said he had a 24 Con and Dex might be the first clue you're making stuff up. I'm not creating this Chameleon to beat you up, I'm making to fill the role of party tank. Which he can do levels 1-20. A way you can tell a character is instantly flawed in his role: he can't hit himself or he kills himself in 1-2 rounds. You can't hit yourself, so you, yourself, are worse off if you fight yourself than I am. The following other things are wrong with your character: the AC a Dwarven Defender has and you need to look up, the rules for wielding weapons vs. simply holding them, that your character can't actually make any of the items he owns because his caster level isn't high enough to do it, what defines a successful attack roll with expert tactician - it is the attack roll, not the opposed check, that I'm doing 54 points of damage before any weapon mods that affect your DR 10/--. I just don't care to take the time to walk you through them anymore. You'll notice, if you're smart, that though my guy has slightly better stats, I omitted the horribly broken treasure/advances that you gave yours. i.e. STR 38, dex 28, con 28.... Maybe you'll want to post how you gave this monster than many attribute bonuses. I'm assuming it has something to do with millions and millions of gold pieces? Riiiiight.... MY build was unreasonable. What we have to compare is individual abilities vs. individual abilities. Things that both characters CANNOT do.
Nazzareth 01-28-05, 04:07 PM	DR- from different sources can stack together sometimes see savage species pg 39 & 90.
Arkat 01-28-05, 04:18 PM	I'm sorry... are you telling me that DR from armour doesn't stack with natural DR? ... How about a page reference? See the Damage Reduction stuff in the DMG Pg. 292 As far as Armor and Natural Armor stacking goes... A Natural Armor bonus and an Armor bonus are two different things (their names are different), therefore, they stack.
Arkat 01-28-05, 04:28 PM	DR- from different sources can stack together sometimes see savage species pg 39 & 90. 1) Savage Species is 3.0. The DMG is 3.5 and is probably more reliable. If you don't buy that logic then... 2) On page 39 and 90 of Savage Species the feat (Roll With It on page 39) and the class feature (Damage Reduction of the Survivor prestige Class on page 90) both specifically state that it stacks. Maybe the fact that Savage Species is 3.0 is irrelevant to the discussion but since nowhere does it state that Adamantine DR and other forms of DR stack, I can say for sure they don't or else it would have speciffically said they could like the two examples in Savage Species.
solbergb 01-28-05, 04:42 PM	Maybe you failed to notice that more than half of the build's levels are in frenzied berserker? Sorry, I thought you were referring to the build I posted. Yeah, a FB/Warchanter would be pretty easy to play. Sing 2 songs and frenzy.
solbergb 01-28-05, 04:53 PM	I got some questions though........ Shields: necessary? animated? Feats: 1) Power Attack and Cleave as a general rule? 2) Utility of Combat Reflexes? 3) Other must haves....top 5 tank feats? poking back through, looking for the FB/warchanter build, a very late response. Shields - If you do the heavy armor thing, they're very nice. If you do the light armor+buckler thing, they're very nice as a buckler, gives you flexibility to raise your AC at the cost of -1 when using a 2-handed weapon, no slinging/unslinging needed. If your defense is not based on AC but is instead based on some combination of ungodly high hitpoints, damage reduction, reach+trip or whatever, a shield is an encumbrance, not a help. An animated shield is just free AC for most characters, so the only reason not to do one is because of the desire to spend your cash elsewhere. 9k for a +3AC (large +1 animated shield) is a decent buy from the mid-levels on. Feats..... Power attack is the only feat I'd consider essential for a tank...not because it helps much with tanking directly (although when you're expertised up and only hit on a 20, no reason not to power attack full so if you roll that 20 it stings). It is for making the enemy pay attention to you if they start ignoring you. Skipping around the AC tank because he's too hard to hit becomes less of an option when that tank steps into the flank you just gave him and winds up with power attack. Cleave is a damage multiplier, more important for damage oriented tanks, not essential but very nice. There are a ton of useful feats. None of them are essential except in context of specific builds (ie, not much point building a reach/tripper build without combat reflexes, not much point taking dodge or mobility unless you want the feats they lead to such as spring attack or elusive target....)
Nazzareth 01-28-05, 05:09 PM	I would say that DR/- from classes and PRCs should stack together with each other otherwise some class and prc combinations make the ability redundant. Maybe only classes that give out DR/- in increments over levels should stack, as it is an increase of an ability, while others that just give a fixed amount of DR/- don't unless stated other wise like the DR/- from the Survivor prestige class. Well as for roll with it stacks it with everything even armour.
Jeremymc 01-28-05, 05:09 PM	So you're telling me that a Tank character can't simply have an item that allows him to polymorph himself? He has to cast the spell on his own? Well, that's a pretty poor view of fighters. Sorry to say. In powergaming scenarios like THIS ONE, fighters HAVE to rely on magical items to power themselves up. It's par for the course. Sometimes fighters HAVE to mimic the powers of their opponents. Frankly, if I wasn't coming to the party with an equal magic item, I'd just carry around a permanent "antimagic field" with a 40 foot radius and watch you "power down" as I walked forward to pummel you. A way you can tell a character is instantly flawed in his role: he can't hit himself or he kills himself in 1-2 rounds. You can't hit yourself, so you, yourself, are worse off if you fight yourself than I am. What? Is this a real sentence? In English? Are you seriously putting forward the argument that my build is worse because he's worse in a fight against himself? I don't say things this flat out very much, but that's a pretty retarded argument. If my character is built for survivability first, and combat second, isn't it then a GOOD thing when he finds it hard for himself (a high level fighter) to hit himself? The following other things are wrong with your character: the AC a Dwarven Defender has and you need to look up, Nope. I'm pretty sure it's right. the rules for wielding weapons vs. simply holding them Nope. I'm pretty sure THAT's right. You can hold whatever magical item you WANT in your off-hand. Just because I'm not attacking with a weapon doesn't mean I'm not wielding it. that your character can't actually make any of the items he owns because his caster level isn't high enough to do it I'M A FIGHTER. I DON'T HAVE A CASTER LEVEL. The Battlesmith Prestige class states that you have to CRAFT the items you wield. CRAFT. Not empower magically, but CRAFT. Am I speaking the right language? Should I start speaking French? My french isn't that bad, but I have the feeling I'd communicate as well to Mommy in that language as I do in English. He'd listen about as well to what I say in that language anyhow. what defines a successful attack roll with expert tactician - it is the attack roll, not the opposed check Well, sure. If I'm wrong, post the text and show me. I just think that Expert Tactician operates with a "melee attack". Which is different from a "melee touch attack". that I'm doing 54 points of damage before any weapon mods that affect your DR 10/-- Ummm... NO. My DR is at least 15/-. It's 18/- if you grant that adamantine and stonemeld stack with each other (which is debatable, but since the one is physical and the other magical, I'm siding towards the yes). And my point was that in your "let's-whup-us-a-dwarf" post, you completely IGNORED the fact that my damage reduction was affecting each and every one of your "tripping AoOs". I just don't care to take the time to walk you through them anymore. I'm sorry, did you say "I just don't care"? Because I distinctly heard the words "I just clearly don't have a rebuttal for your points, and thus don't care". I don't know though. TO EVERYONE: If I'm wrong about something, POST WHY. If you can at all, POST THE PAGE REFERENCE. It helps EVERYBODY - INCLUDING ME. It's the only reason I even bother coming back to these boards, given their pathetic lack of entertainment value. If someone could figure out the DR puzzle, I'd be much obliged. Do natural DRs stack with armour? Do magical ones with armour? What stacks with what would be a handy thing to figure out. Thank you. To JosephKell: I seem to have utterly failed in my goal to keep this thread on task. We're getting an influx of "tripping Chameleon builds", a virus which generally heralds the death of the host organism.
dagger 01-28-05, 05:24 PM	Maybe multiple threads should be started so people can post tank builds and the dang threads can stay on topic. I personally was hoping to see some traditional tank builds, not polymorph tripping builds. I’d like to see some tank builds that don’t have to rely on crazy magic setups to be effective, and have a max of 3 or 4 classes to reduce cheese.
Arkat 01-28-05, 05:43 PM	If someone could figure out the DR puzzle, I'd be much obliged. Do natural DRs stack with armour? Do magical ones with armour? What stacks with what would be a handy thing to figure out. Thank you. This has been answered. At least three people (including myself) have given you page numbers in reference to your DR questions/problems. Perhaps you should reread the posts.
Nazzareth 01-28-05, 06:19 PM	There is certain my tank is better than your tank thing and a what is a tank debates going on in this thread, instead how about people make this into a how to make a tank thread. In my mind a tank is the groups primary front line melee fighter, a fighter that has the melee combat focused them, one that is able hold thier own in combat and survive. Now how to pull this off? Why don’t we pull to bits the components that go into making good tank and see how to max them out? We have BAB, Damage, Number of attacks for offensive power, dishing out damage. We have AC, Damage Reduction for defense, avoiding damage. We have HPs, saves, fast healing and regeneration for surviviblity. lastly Tactics like tripping, disarming, bullrushing, mobilty and sunder type stuff. What say we start working through this and see what we come up with.
Jeremymc 01-28-05, 06:47 PM	This has been answered. At least three people (including myself) have given you page numbers in reference to your DR questions/problems. Perhaps you should reread the posts. THE EXAMPLE GIVEN IN THE DMG ARE OF A PURELY MAGICAL NATURE. THERE IS NO SPECIFIC MENTION OF TWO PHYSICAL, MATERIAL DAMAGE REDUCTIONS INTERACTING. Sure, the Gargoyle may not be able to stack stoneskin with his own damage reduction, but why should he not be able to stack the DR provided by wearing adamantine OVER his rocky skin? Now can you see why a reasonable reader might be confused? Might see the rules as ambiguous? As I responded to your pedantic snark in another, similar thread, reading the rules explicitly doesn't tell us anything about material situations. If I fire an arrow through an adamantine wall, and it hits a character with Adamantine armour, why should one or the other be negated? What is the purpose of having physical objects if certain abilities simply negate them? You can't just negate an object in the game world... Besides which, if these damage reductions don't stack, it completely unbalances the concept of certain character classes. A Barbarian works for most of his life to achieve a DR, and then a Priest with 20 000 gp adamantine armour comes along and blows him out of the water. That doesn't seem balanced. Characters and monsters who have physically harder hides than other creatures should not be PENALIZED because they wear METAL ON TOP OF THEIR HIDES.
Isthramir 01-28-05, 07:17 PM	If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation Disagreeing with the rule is a different issue. It's pretty clear that damage reduction doesn't stack unless there is an exception saying it does.
Otto the Bugbear 01-28-05, 07:25 PM	Try to stop looking at the example and instead look at the text of the book. If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit fo the best damage reduction in a given situation. No 'ifs', 'ands', or 'buts' about it - "do not stack" means they do not stack. That doesn't seem balanced Balanced? Balanced? What makes you think this game is at all balanced? Now, if you feel that it should be balanced, please feel free to balance it. Once you're done, publish a book so we can all see what you consider balanced. (Or better yet, publish it free on the net and provide a link for us.) That'll be quite the feat, to balance this game. Cheers Otto :) edit: dangit. Isthramir beat me to the DMG quote. :D
Psifon 01-28-05, 10:09 PM	What Otto Said!!! Only the roll with it feat stacks as DR. This is an exception that is explicitly stated in the write up of the feat. So people, rather than arguing about who's d*ck is bigger, why don't we throw out some ideas about what goes into making a good tank?
Psifon 01-28-05, 10:20 PM	In response to that, I most something as germane to the discussion: 1 .Some penguin species spend as much as 75% of their lives in the sea. Some species spend several months at a time at sea, only coming ashore for breeding and molting. The Fiordland crested penguins sometimes grow barnacles on their tails, an indication that they are at sea for long periods. 2. Swimming speeds generally are not well known. The fastest swimmers belong to the genus Aptenodytes. Emperors have been observed swimming 14.4 kph (8.9 mph), though they normally do not exceed 10.8 kph (6.7 mph). Both kings and chinstraps have been recorded at 8.6 kph (5.3 mph). 3. To maintain streamlining with least resistance while swimming under water, a penguin keeps its head hunched into its shoulders. The feet are pressed close to the body against the tail to aid in steering. 4. Penguin wings are paddlelike flippers used for swimming. The motion of the flippers resembles the wing movements of flying birds, giving penguins the appearance of flying through the water. The wing and breast muscles are well developed, to propel the penguins through water, a medium much denser than air. 5. Having solid, dense bones helps penguins overcome buoyancy. 6. Although it is more energy efficient for penguins to swim under water than at the water surface, they must come to the surface to breathe. They compromise by "porpoising" - leaping in and out of the water, like dolphins or porpoises. Yes, but MUCH LIKE THE DWARF, the PENGUIN doesn't suffer a movement penalty in heavy armor (except to his swim speed of course!!!) Truely you have captured the true essence of the min/max'ed tank! and thank you for accomodating me! :D
Ramses III 01-29-05, 04:06 AM	Ok, a page or so back, I'm seeing someone posted that a shield is a must-have for a tank. I do have to disagree with this; a tank can go for massive damage as well and a 2-handed weapon is a good option. Greatsword is the best in most cases, but I still prefer scythe as it gives you a better chance of one-shotting big monsters at mid-to-high levels. Indeed, if you're taking any Barbarian in your build, it seems a waste not to use a 2-handed weapon.
Galbard 01-29-05, 05:26 AM	A shield is still a must have. Just take an animated shield when you can afford it. This is what makes Uncanny Blow (from Exotic Weapon Master) so good. At low level you can be a sword and board fighter and still be a superior 2-handed fighter at higher levels.
catharz 01-29-05, 05:58 AM	Sorry, I thought you were referring to the build I posted. Yeah, a FB/Warchanter would be pretty easy to play. Sing 2 songs and frenzy. Tee hee. Yep, easy just about sums it up :)
Arkat 01-29-05, 08:48 AM	jeremymc Perhaps you missed this post above as well? 1) Savage Species is 3.0. The DMG is 3.5 and is probably more reliable. If you don't buy that logic then... 2) On page 39 and 90 of Savage Species the feat (Roll With It on page 39) and the class feature (Damage Reduction of the Survivor prestige Class on page 90) both specifically state that it stacks. Maybe the fact that Savage Species is 3.0 is irrelevant to the discussion but since nowhere does it state that Adamantine DR and other forms of DR stack, I can say for sure they don't or else it would have speciffically said they could like the two examples in Savage Species. The point is, DR from different sources that actually do stack specifically say they do. Therefore, your DR from adamantine armor doesn't stack with any other kind of DR since nowhere does it say it does. Seriously...this is not rocket science.
WizO_Autumn 01-29-05, 01:22 PM	Seriously. These boards do have rules. If the non-constructive arguing continues, the thread will get shut down. Disagree all you want, but please do it polietly and respectively. Only warning.
JosephKell 01-29-05, 03:04 PM	I'M A FIGHTER. I DON'T HAVE A CASTER LEVEL. The Battlesmith Prestige class states that you have to CRAFT the items you wield. CRAFT. Not empower magically, but CRAFT.Battlesmith grants a Crafting Caster Level 3* your Battlesmith level. So a Dwarf Fighter/Battlesmith 5 has a Caster Level (only for craft Weapons and Armor) of 15. If it was a Cleric/Battlesmith it would have a Caster Level of Cleric and a Craft Magical Arms and Armor Level of Cleric + 3*Battlesmith level.To JosephKell: I seem to have utterly failed in my goal to keep this thread on task. We're getting an influx of "tripping Chameleon builds", a virus which generally heralds the death of the host organism.Not your job. If someone is "getting under your skin" just use the ignore option. It isn't about winning an argument, it is about ending an argument before you (because in life each person can only control him or herself) violate the CoC.
GrolubFranco 01-29-05, 09:44 PM	Honestly donīt think that Roll with it is a good feat, specially because Iīm also trying to squeeze feats the most. I always have a better feat than a Roll with it. Shield is of course good unless you use a spiked chain for control. Also I agree that a spiked chain with just 10" doesnīt get you THAT much of control... so if you donīt pretend to enlarge forget about spiked chain.