Building a Crusader/Is Crusader better for supporting Monks and Rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Crusader/Is Crusader better for supporting Monks and Rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marlowe_Faustus
08-10-06, 10:33 PM I am building a Warforged Crusader of 8th/9th level, primarily because I like the ability to be able to heal in the middle of combat with strikes and because I just think the Crusader class is just cool. One of the first things I realized was that a Crusader doesn't have many options for maneuvers at the first level... They know 5 and have 6 available.

Other then that I have really only worked out a few ideas. First, I am contemplating taking 2 levels of fighter, 1 at first and 1 at fourth to get Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge as bonus feats (primarily to take advantage of the charge maneuvers that are available to the Crusader). Second, I want to take Adamantine Body at 1st level, Extra Granted at 3rd level, and Vital Recovery at 6th (Seems like a pretty sweet deal to get healing every 3rd round without any actions required [end of 1st get back 1 of 2 withheld, end of 2nd get back 2 of 2 withheld, end of 3rd get all maneuvers refreshed and restart and get back 3+ level hp]).

As for maneuvers... I haven't quite figured all of those out yet but I am trying to figure out the best way to provide support to the monk and rogue, our warforged fighter handles himself quite well on his own.

The only thing I am starting to wonder is if the premiss that the Crusader can provide the best support to the rogue and monk is false and if a Swordsage would actually be better, what with the ruling on Adaptive Style. The rest of the party is made up of an Artificer and a Warmage (and the warforge fighter mentioned above).

The main reason I posted this here is that I have built a few lemons, characters that I didn't like or that didn't really fit with the party.
Vysirez
08-11-06, 12:33 AM IMO, Crusader is the best support of the three base martial adept classes. One thing I have to wonder about though, don't warforged only get half benefit from healing magic? If so that might weaken the benefits of some of the crusader abilities. Not sure what would be better in that case. Course if your just planning on healing one of the other party members then it might work fine.
Encard
08-11-06, 01:05 AM Vital Recovery is only once per encounter, actually.

Crusader has some good potential... Consider a reach weapon, some method of being large sized, trip, and Thicket of Blades for some good times. Especially fun with Mage Slayer, given how hard it'll be for casters to get off spells/get away when you're nearby. Healing is always good, of course.

What's your party, though? You haven't mentioned either an arcane or a divine caster, which is a bit worrying. Have you considered Ruby Knight Vindicator? A Cleric/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator Build might not be too bad - you could get your Devoted Spirit maneuvers through feats, probably. That way, you'd end up with good cleric casting, good combat abilities, swift-action maneuver recovery, and IL 15+ depending on how many of what class you wanted to take (assuming full RKV). Crusader also works, if you like the auto maneuver recovery, but the randomness is a pain.

Warblade could be very solid at support if you wanted to use White Raven - the other Warblade disciplines are less support-oriented, though, I see to recall. Of course, RKV also gets White Raven, along with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon. Swordsage might actually work better than Warblade here, depending on what you wanted to do - Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand disablers could lead to some great fun, for example.
Marlowe_Faustus
08-11-06, 12:22 PM IMO, Crusader is the best support of the three base martial adept classes. One thing I have to wonder about though, don't warforged only get half benefit from healing magic? If so that might weaken the benefits of some of the crusader abilities. Not sure what would be better in that case. Course if your just planning on healing one of the other party members then it might work fine.

Actually they only get half benefit from the healing sub-school spells and supernatural abilities that heal. The Crusader maneuvers don't fall under either of those since they are extrodinary abilities.

Vital Recovery is only once per encounter, actually.

Doh. I am not sure how I missed that. Still its better then a potion of cure moderate wounds and you are likely to get it a few times a day.

Crusader has some good potential... Consider a reach weapon, some method of being large sized, trip, and Thicket of Blades for some good times. Especially fun with Mage Slayer, given how hard it'll be for casters to get off spells/get away when you're nearby. Healing is always good, of course.

An interesting idea but I had been thinking of using a shield for the shield oriented counters that the crusader has. As for large sized... well our monk has had a potion of enlarge for quite a while now and never been able to use it (we spend a fair chunk of time in enclosed areas) and has had improved trip and not really been able to use it either, that and I am not a huge fan of trip alone (the stetting sun maneuvers that use trip to throw someone are a bird of a different feather). Not that the idea isn't good or anything it is just not something I want to do persea.

What's your party, though? You haven't mentioned either an arcane or a divine caster, which is a bit worrying. Have you considered Ruby Knight Vindicator? A Cleric/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator Build might not be too bad - you could get your Devoted Spirit maneuvers through feats, probably. That way, you'd end up with good cleric casting, good combat abilities, swift-action maneuver recovery, and IL 15+ depending on how many of what class you wanted to take (assuming full RKV). Crusader also works, if you like the auto maneuver recovery, but the randomness is a pain.

The party is Warforged Fighter, Gnome Artificer, Dwarf Warmage, Human Rogue, and Half-orc Monk (plus my current Changeling Beguiler). I have played a cleric and an archavist... Neither I enjoyed very much. I don't like divine casters for some reason, even if I think they look cool on paper I tend to get aggitated and annoyed with them part way through their first session. (yes I am a very odd fellow when it comes to my temperments)

Warblade could be very solid at support if you wanted to use White Raven - the other Warblade disciplines are less support-oriented, though, I see to recall. Of course, RKV also gets White Raven, along with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon. Swordsage might actually work better than Warblade here, depending on what you wanted to do - Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand disablers could lead to some great fun, for example.

I had planned to focus on some of Devoted Spirit and White Raven, White Raven has some sweet maneuvers (like leaving an opponent flat footed :)). I will have to look again at the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disiplines, I only really glanced over the other disiplines. I am not a huge fan of the flavour of the Warblade the whole glory hound I find... irritating. Enjoying battle and a challenge I can see but the glory hounding seems to be pretty strongly ingrained in them and I am loathe to remove that flavour from classes, I find it adds something to the classes even if I don't like it.

Thank you for the advice and input Encard and Vysirez I will take another look at the various other options you suggested before coming back with some more questions I expect :).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marlowe_Faustus 08-10-06, 10:33 PM	I am building a Warforged Crusader of 8th/9th level, primarily because I like the ability to be able to heal in the middle of combat with strikes and because I just think the Crusader class is just cool. One of the first things I realized was that a Crusader doesn't have many options for maneuvers at the first level... They know 5 and have 6 available. Other then that I have really only worked out a few ideas. First, I am contemplating taking 2 levels of fighter, 1 at first and 1 at fourth to get Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge as bonus feats (primarily to take advantage of the charge maneuvers that are available to the Crusader). Second, I want to take Adamantine Body at 1st level, Extra Granted at 3rd level, and Vital Recovery at 6th (Seems like a pretty sweet deal to get healing every 3rd round without any actions required [end of 1st get back 1 of 2 withheld, end of 2nd get back 2 of 2 withheld, end of 3rd get all maneuvers refreshed and restart and get back 3+ level hp]). As for maneuvers... I haven't quite figured all of those out yet but I am trying to figure out the best way to provide support to the monk and rogue, our warforged fighter handles himself quite well on his own. The only thing I am starting to wonder is if the premiss that the Crusader can provide the best support to the rogue and monk is false and if a Swordsage would actually be better, what with the ruling on Adaptive Style. The rest of the party is made up of an Artificer and a Warmage (and the warforge fighter mentioned above). The main reason I posted this here is that I have built a few lemons, characters that I didn't like or that didn't really fit with the party.
Vysirez 08-11-06, 12:33 AM	IMO, Crusader is the best support of the three base martial adept classes. One thing I have to wonder about though, don't warforged only get half benefit from healing magic? If so that might weaken the benefits of some of the crusader abilities. Not sure what would be better in that case. Course if your just planning on healing one of the other party members then it might work fine.
Encard 08-11-06, 01:05 AM	Vital Recovery is only once per encounter, actually. Crusader has some good potential... Consider a reach weapon, some method of being large sized, trip, and Thicket of Blades for some good times. Especially fun with Mage Slayer, given how hard it'll be for casters to get off spells/get away when you're nearby. Healing is always good, of course. What's your party, though? You haven't mentioned either an arcane or a divine caster, which is a bit worrying. Have you considered Ruby Knight Vindicator? A Cleric/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator Build might not be too bad - you could get your Devoted Spirit maneuvers through feats, probably. That way, you'd end up with good cleric casting, good combat abilities, swift-action maneuver recovery, and IL 15+ depending on how many of what class you wanted to take (assuming full RKV). Crusader also works, if you like the auto maneuver recovery, but the randomness is a pain. Warblade could be very solid at support if you wanted to use White Raven - the other Warblade disciplines are less support-oriented, though, I see to recall. Of course, RKV also gets White Raven, along with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon. Swordsage might actually work better than Warblade here, depending on what you wanted to do - Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand disablers could lead to some great fun, for example.
Marlowe_Faustus 08-11-06, 12:22 PM	IMO, Crusader is the best support of the three base martial adept classes. One thing I have to wonder about though, don't warforged only get half benefit from healing magic? If so that might weaken the benefits of some of the crusader abilities. Not sure what would be better in that case. Course if your just planning on healing one of the other party members then it might work fine. Actually they only get half benefit from the healing sub-school spells and supernatural abilities that heal. The Crusader maneuvers don't fall under either of those since they are extrodinary abilities. Vital Recovery is only once per encounter, actually. Doh. I am not sure how I missed that. Still its better then a potion of cure moderate wounds and you are likely to get it a few times a day. Crusader has some good potential... Consider a reach weapon, some method of being large sized, trip, and Thicket of Blades for some good times. Especially fun with Mage Slayer, given how hard it'll be for casters to get off spells/get away when you're nearby. Healing is always good, of course. An interesting idea but I had been thinking of using a shield for the shield oriented counters that the crusader has. As for large sized... well our monk has had a potion of enlarge for quite a while now and never been able to use it (we spend a fair chunk of time in enclosed areas) and has had improved trip and not really been able to use it either, that and I am not a huge fan of trip alone (the stetting sun maneuvers that use trip to throw someone are a bird of a different feather). Not that the idea isn't good or anything it is just not something I want to do persea. What's your party, though? You haven't mentioned either an arcane or a divine caster, which is a bit worrying. Have you considered Ruby Knight Vindicator? A Cleric/Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator Build might not be too bad - you could get your Devoted Spirit maneuvers through feats, probably. That way, you'd end up with good cleric casting, good combat abilities, swift-action maneuver recovery, and IL 15+ depending on how many of what class you wanted to take (assuming full RKV). Crusader also works, if you like the auto maneuver recovery, but the randomness is a pain. The party is Warforged Fighter, Gnome Artificer, Dwarf Warmage, Human Rogue, and Half-orc Monk (plus my current Changeling Beguiler). I have played a cleric and an archavist... Neither I enjoyed very much. I don't like divine casters for some reason, even if I think they look cool on paper I tend to get aggitated and annoyed with them part way through their first session. (yes I am a very odd fellow when it comes to my temperments) Warblade could be very solid at support if you wanted to use White Raven - the other Warblade disciplines are less support-oriented, though, I see to recall. Of course, RKV also gets White Raven, along with Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon. Swordsage might actually work better than Warblade here, depending on what you wanted to do - Setting Sun throws and Shadow Hand disablers could lead to some great fun, for example. I had planned to focus on some of Devoted Spirit and White Raven, White Raven has some sweet maneuvers (like leaving an opponent flat footed :)). I will have to look again at the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disiplines, I only really glanced over the other disiplines. I am not a huge fan of the flavour of the Warblade the whole glory hound I find... irritating. Enjoying battle and a challenge I can see but the glory hounding seems to be pretty strongly ingrained in them and I am loathe to remove that flavour from classes, I find it adds something to the classes even if I don't like it. Thank you for the advice and input Encard and Vysirez I will take another look at the various other options you suggested before coming back with some more questions I expect :).