Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eudas 10-20-05, 12:40 PM	Ok, y'all, here's the lowdown. I'm trying to create a Human Rogue/Spymaster build for use in RPGA events (Living Greyhawk). Sources allowed follow the character creation guidelines in the LGCS (PHB only until 3rd level; 28 point buy). The character archetype that I'm after is based on a couple of concepts. * Han Solo in "ROTJ": *grin* "Hey, it's me!" * Paul Hogan in "Lightning Jack"; Two outlaws who just want to be Wanted * Face in "The A-Team" I think you get the point. The problem is, I've searched the bloody CO boards, FAQ threads, build threads, Rogue guides, stat assignment threads, etc etc etc, and pretty much found two things that really discuss "face" rogues: Jack and ****. And Jack left town. So, I need some advice, recommendations, thoughts, random laughter, *something*, for building a "Face" rogue, who is headed toward Spymaster in the Bandit Kingdoms of Living Greyhawk for RPGA play. Something that doesn't involve useless advice such as "dude, go rogue/sorc/AT" or "dude, play a bard". Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? eudas
dog45 10-20-05, 01:24 PM	Having never played in LG, I don't know much about the particulars. But, PHB only till level 3 is fairly easy. Half-elf or Human Rogue 3 If you took Human, you could get another feat and a skill point. But, the Half-elf gets a +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Info. If you were Human you could take one of the below feats to get the bonuses, but none of them give a bonus to those two skills in one feat. So, you pick up an ability you couldn't get with a feat (a slight advantage, but there) and you can use your 1st level feat to pick up another social feat from the list. The extra skill point is a loss, but you get immunity to magic sleep, elf blood, and minor bonuses to listen search and spot. The reasons for playing a Human are obvious. Social skills to max Bluff Diplomacy Disguise Gather Information Intimidate Sense Motive Those are your main skills - how you make your money. With your other skill points, pick ones that you want to be proficient at, but dont need to master. Secondary social skills Decipher Script Forgery Knowledge (local) Listen Spot After your main and secondary set of skills are secure, put a few points into your third set, or backup set, of skills that further flesh out your characters abilities. Backup social skills (when diplomacy breaks down) Disable Device Escape Artist Hide Open Lock Tumble Social Feats Deceitful Inestigator Negotiator Persuasive Hope this helps!
oxybe 10-20-05, 01:32 PM	now, i'll admit i'm not too sure how LG works, never having played it before, but for a "face" character? since you want rogue in it, i'll try my best... human Monk 2/ rogue 3 / Marshall 1 / cleric 1(luck, charm) / warlock 1 / Tatooed Monk 5 / spymaster 7 levels. get your charisma up as high as possible, then your int. use the tatooed monk's bellflower tatoo, sun tatoo and full moon tatoo(the sun and moon tatoo give +2 luck bonuses day and night respectively, for 1 min each use) to give you huge enhancement bonuses to your charisma (over and over and over, each larger then the last) ex. star elf, 18 base cha+4 cha enchant(item)+2 level pts+4charm domain ability +2 racial= 30 (+10). 1 use gives a +10 enchant bonus to cha (36, +13), then a 2nd use +13 bonus (39,+14). the higher your charisma, the better the new mod. use the marshall's "inspire charisma" ability to give add your charisma bonus twice. if you are evil, taking 1 level of cleric(with charm domain) and casting masochism on yourself (then letting your cleric buddy cast Harm on you [a great source of non-lethal damage, though you will probly be at 1 HP, a clvl 15 harm = +15 luck bonus to 1 skill check]). otherwise be a good/neutral cleric with charm domain. the luck domain can let you reroll a horrible fumble. 1 level of warlock can give you a handy invocation that gives +6 to 3 social skills(bluff and 2 more, diplomacy and ). if marshal & warlock aren't allowed, or you dont want to put that 1 level in cleric (since it's very hard to roleplay a 1 level dip in cleric) then use those "cheeze levels" to put in your chosen PRC(spymaster). either way, you only really need monk 2 / rogue 3 / tatooed monk 5 to get the ball rolling. otherwise, pool as many skill points as possible in your chosen social skills. Dog's chosen skill list is very well said. follow it and you'll do fine. -28 pt buy str 2 (10) dex 4 (12) con 4 (12) int 4 (12) wis 4 (12) cha 10 pts (16)
oxybe 10-20-05, 01:51 PM	feats -whatever you want[lvl1] -Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Mar1-free] -Endurance [lvl3] -[lvl6] -Improved Unarmed Strike [Mnk1-free] -Improved Grapple [Mnk1-free] -[lvl9] -lvl12] -[lvl15] -[lvl18] for the twink in you, look in my sig at the bluff world record (+214) for great ways to up your charisma, as well as being able to bluff ANYONE. that build is very iffy, and few DMs will allow it, but it's legal.
eudas 10-20-05, 02:47 PM	One important thing that I may have neglected to mention is that characters in the RPGA are now retired at level 16; this means that builds, in a practical sense, are constrained from 1-15. the LGCS also has some limitations on availability of PRC's; Spymaster, for example, is "Limited", meaning that you have to obtain Access through campaign documentation (membership in one of the meta-organizations, such as the Rookroost Thieves' Guild, or through your Wanted status (which is my preferred route), etc) in order to take levels in that PRC. Thanks for the suggestions, and keep the ideas' comin'. The spice must flow. eudas
DaWhale 10-20-05, 02:57 PM	Perform (Oratory) might be a nice secondary social-skill too. It's not an important skill, but I've always figured a face to be well liked and all, and then it helps to be able to tell an incredibly funny joke or story from time to time :D
oxybe 10-20-05, 02:57 PM	if you have to retire at lvl 16: monk2/rogue3/cleric 1/marshal1/tatooed monk5/spymaster3 you get the gist of my build that way. you could also ditch the cleric&marshal for 2 more spymaster levels.
UMiskatonic 10-20-05, 03:12 PM	Hey, I'm familiar with LG, and even with Rookroost. I've got an understanding of what you want. And I disagree with some of the earlier posts. Oxbe's build, for example, gives you an 8th level guy with a BAB of +3. For your build, rogue 3 is a very good start. I'd go human, it's easier socially, and you NEED feats, bad. Have a good CHA, but not overwhelming. Keep in mind that most characters have an 8 CHA, so even a 12 is better than most. I'd say STR 10, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14. You also need skills, so lets start there. I'll start by saying that the 11 skill points a level that you get are really not enough. Easy choices-social skills Bluff--good Diplomacy--good Sense Motive--good Speak Language--essential for the others to work Easy choices-rogue skills Search--great Disable Device--great Open Lock--useful, but you can stop after a while NO ONE else can get a party past traps, except a rogue. Anyone you play with will expect you to be able to do this. Unless you like opening traps with your face, put points here. Keep you alive skills-- Tumble--great Spot--solid Listen--solid Skill that can replace every other skill in the book? Use magic device--**Beyond Compare** (this pays off late in LG. At first level, it's not so hot, but by fifth, it's golden) Skills that aren't worth your time... Appraise (everything is printed on the AR, there are no mystery items in LG) Gather Info (you can always take 20 on this, almost never do you have to gather info in a 10 minute time period. Put a few points if you like) Forgery (this will never, ever come up) Decipher Script (Comprehend Languages will do the job every time. If you're worried, buy a scroll for 25 gold, and hand it to the wizard when needed. Also, this skill becomes less useful as you learn more languages, which you'll need to do anyway) And that's 11 skills a level. You can a point or two from less critical skills like open lock to put a point or two in knowledge local if you like. Also, some skills will top off. If you can hit a tumble of 15 reliably, you can stop there.
UMiskatonic 10-20-05, 03:24 PM	Feats--- NEVER burn a feat to get 4 skill points. It's like using a gun to untie your shoelaces. Sure, it might work, but the cost is higher than you want. As a 14th level rogue (near retirement), you'll have 154 skill points, plus a few synergy bonuses. And you'll have 6 feats, one of which you'll only have for a brief time. Using one of your 6 feats to get 4 more skill points? Ridiculous. Keep in mind that skills can be bumped by magic items, meta-orgs, raising your stats, and by paying rich or luxury upkeep. Getting more feats...well you can't really do that, so make the most of what you have. As a LG rogue, you'll be getting into fights. Bank on it. You NEED to be able to live through a fight, and hopefully contribute. I'd suggest TWF, spring attacking, or being a harrasment fighter. The third fits your build quite well. You could easily take combat expertise early on, and with fighting defensively, you'll have good low-level AC. Flank and aid the fighters, and sneak attack where you can. It's a prerequisite for Imp. Disarm and Imp. Trip, both of which are useful LG tactics (trip's better, more enemies have feet than weapons) Sneak attack feats, like hamstring and staggering strike also add a lot to your abilities to hamper the enemies' style. Finally, Imp. Diversion allows you to bluff and then stab, catching opponents flat-footed for a sneak attack. When you start running into lots of enemies that are sneak attack proof, that's when UMD comes in handy, and it's about the same time that you can automatically use all wands and low-level scrolls.
Bonzai 10-20-05, 03:46 PM	I have never played Greyhawk, but I did have a similar concept once for a villian in a campaign. I went with a Bard/assasin. He was a suprisingly good villian, as it turned the adventure into something of a murder mystery. This assasin was a master of disguise. He used his cover as a bard of minor reknown to get close to his targets. Ideally, he would use his ring of the chameleon to disguise himself, and then use his charm abilities to turn the targets closest friend into their murderer. Even if the magic charm was detected, he had disguised himself so that people were looking for some one who didn't exist. People rarely would suspect the handsome and charismatic bard who performed that night, and he made sure that he always had an alibi ("she was with me all night"). When the party got to close, random people would attack them out of the blue (again, thanks to his charm and geas powers). Overall it was a very fun session. So for this sort of concept, I would highly recomend a bard.
eudas 10-20-05, 05:19 PM	thanks, umiskatonic. that's really good info, there. i'll probably follow your recommendations strongly. are you also in the Bandit Kingdoms (texas)? bonzai, glad that worked out for you. it's a pretty good combo, but you can't play assassins in Living Greyhawk (no evil characters allowed). anyone else have any good ideas, comments, suggestions, random thoughts, dirty jokes? eudas
UMiskatonic 10-21-05, 01:19 AM	Eudas, I'm actually in Chicago (Verbobonc) but I occassionally get to travel for work, so I've been your way. Here's the rest of what I can think of... 1) Take a look in the LGCS at what rich and luxury upkeep do for ya. It's pretty impressive, and worth paying for as soon as you can afford it. 2) A lot of build-fu comes from multiclassing. I know you want to go spymaster, but I'm concerned that rogue 5/spymaster 10 gives you two bad saving throws. Fort and Will are +3 base. I think we can keep the concept and improve on things a bit. 3) Let's say, for the sake of argument, that rogue 3/xx 2/spymaster 10 or rogue 3/yy 3/spymaster 10 is an acceptible build, as long as you don't lose hordes of skill points. 4) Good options include Swashbuckler (fort save, more melee damage, free feat), Ranger (two feats, good fort and will), hexblade (mettle, will save, spell resistance), warmage (will, cast in light armor), sorceror (will, ASF %, better spells), and marshal (fort and will). If you go caster, a one level dip and a feat, practiced spellcaster, give you 5 caster levels. That's 3d8 with an orb, plus sneak attack. Yay. 5) I'm inclined to go with two levels of marshal. It adds +3 to both your weakest saves, gives you proficiency with all armor and weapons (good for disguises), skill focus diplomacy (good for free) and two auras that benefit the whole party. They also get all knowledge skills, which might be good for a spymaster to put one point into, and speak language as a class skill. Minis handbook on the aura details. 6) With all armor, all weapons, and good UMD, you could pass yourself off as just about anything.
eudas 10-21-05, 10:25 AM	umiskatonic, thanks again for the excellent suggestions. i own the MHB, so I'm familiar with Marshal. It's a good recommendation, and I've kinda been wanting to play a Marshal anyway, though I'd thought it'd be on a more, well, martial character. =) (/me ducks the thrown tomatoes.) Ranger's also a good potential choice. One minor detail for you, Spymaster is a 7 level PRC, so that leaves 9 levels (8, really, I guess, since you retire at 16th) of other classes you can use. Hm, Rogue 3/Marshal 2/Spymaster 7? If I wanted a non-PHB feat, I could even take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) in levels 1-3, and then when I take Marshal 1, it lets you choose a different feat if you already have SF(Diplomacy). Skillwise, Rogue could satisfy 90% of the skill prereq's for Spymaster, and Marshal gets Bluff as a class skill... Then there's the Marshal auras as well. Intriguing possibility. Another possibility is with the Ranger class... I was thinking of using knowledge (local (bandit kingdoms)) as a means to avoid the minions of Iuz since I plan on being Wanted, and it gives me a "persona" to use for Spymaster, since I can pretend to be a guide. That works even better if he's a Ranger, and really *is* a guide. :) Of course, nothing's precluding doing both, but any levels taken in base classes are levels not taken in PRC's, or in the rogue class, which could be an opportunity cost, depending on what you're trying to do. Would there be any other PRC's that you would think that would go well for this type of character (still focused on the Rogue/Spymaster, but open to other possibilities, or combos that work with Rogue/Spymaster)? Ideas for "personas" are open as well, esp ones that work well with the skills to be selected. (The baker, the butcher, the candlestick maker...) eudas
oxybe 10-21-05, 10:31 AM	marshal gives you skill focus diplomacy free, so why change it? remember only 1 minor and 1 major aura at a time, and you only get a handful. you could go rogue3/marshall2/spymaster7/warlock3. trust me, marshall can cheeze it up when he wants to. the few invocations that you get could help, since they are at will, or just finish off with ranger or rogue.
eudas 10-21-05, 10:34 AM	the SF(Diplomacy) trick is just a way to slip around the "no non-PHB feats before level 3" limitation. in the end, you wind up with a non-PHB feat and SF(Diplomacy) instead of a PHB feat and SF(Diplomacy). Of course, it only works if you were going to take Marshal anyway. Of course, all this multiclassing has one serious drawback: skill points, and keeping skills max'd. The serious number crunching, I guess, goes into comparing the skill lists of the classes involved, and generating a viable build order so as to maximize the skills you're able to keep high and ensure skill synergy between the classes, to minimize points wasted crossclassing skills. eudas
oxybe 10-21-05, 10:45 AM	ah. understandable again, marshall, though a heavy armor/all weapons type of char, isnt really the martial type. i find that it works best when paired with a bard, rogue or other face char, since he naturally requires a high charisma, the armor and weapon selection is just incase the front line fails and he has to be backup. the marshall is one of the few classes that can take leadership and make it horribly effective, especially if his cohort is a buffer-type (bard or cleric i find are the best, maybe druid too). i currently have a 9th level marshall that can hit a diplomacy mod in the low 30's without much twinking, when his motivate charisma aura is on, and yes he is a "face char", with a longbow as his primary and a longsword as secondary weapon. his cohorts are a bard and cleric. together they can create a powerful army out of a handfull of lvl1 fighters...
UMiskatonic 10-22-05, 12:25 AM	Well, I don't think you problem is going to be losing skill points. You have enough that if you have a weaker level, like ranger with 6 or marshal with 4, you'll be okay. I think you need think about what happens when the bluff/diplomacy doesn't work. That usually means fighting. Multiclass into something that will help you out when it hits the fan. Better saves, better weapons, better BAB, better something. Think about your feats in the same way. Remember, you'll have to play this character for a calendar year before you even see a prestige class. That's a LONG time to wait for a build which will be cool later. -------------------------- To finally answer your question, here's what I can think of... Bard/Spymaster works fine too. I'd still throw a martial level in there. Rogue/ranger is a time-honored combination Rogue/martial isn't bad Rogue/Hexblade gets a lot of mileage out of CHA, and it fits the bandit kingdoms well. Also, ask yourself how many levels of spymaster you need. Where's the cutoff? What spymaster abilities are you dying to have? Why spymaster instead of rogue 16? If you can answer those questions, I think you're fine.
PhoenixInferno 10-22-05, 02:06 AM	Rangers don't get good Will saves - they get good Fortitude and Reflex.
Sieylianna 10-24-05, 08:52 AM	thanks, umiskatonic. that's really good info, there. i'll probably follow your recommendations strongly. are you also in the Bandit Kingdoms (texas)? bonzai, glad that worked out for you. it's a pretty good combo, but you can't play assassins in Living Greyhawk (no evil characters allowed). anyone else have any good ideas, comments, suggestions, random thoughts, dirty jokes? You do not want to take 20 on gather info checks. The time required to gather informartion is 1d4+1 hours. The module will be over by the time you are finished. I have a PC like this in living kalamar and one that is coming along in LG. The important ability scores are Dexterity, Charisma and Constitution. I generally don't put any points nto strength and rely on weapon finesse to hit. However, a PC with great social skills and no combat skills is not going to be appreciated at any LG table. The archer route is the safest - take point blank and precise shot so you can contribute. Ed