Building a Goliath Warhulk... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a Goliath Warhulk... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheVatican
09-27-05, 04:40 PM I have decided to build a Goliath Warhulk. What I am deciding is whether I should build him with fighter or barbarian levels?

Also, I looked on the wizards website that has the Warhulk PrC, and it mentions on the graph that it gets "no time to think" as a PrC ability, yet it does not explain it below? Is this the drawback to the WH?

If I go barbarian i will have some nice barb. abilities, but if I go with a warrior I will have more feats.

Also, what Other PRC should I take after after 15th level? Basically (5barb/10WH/5? or 5warrior/10WH/5 ?)

The hulking hurler build is a bit too cheesy, so I am looking for another build.

One last thing about Goliaths, will enlarge person affect them? or those monstrous build prevent that from happening?

Thanks for the help
Caelic
09-27-05, 04:43 PM A number of things:

1. The official word is that Massive Build does NOT qualify a Goliath for War Hulk. Your DM may or may not be willing to overlook that.

2. "No Time To Think" is a fairly significant drawback. In essence, you lose all ranks in any Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skills, and can never gain ranks in any such skill. The only exception is Intimidate.

3. If you ARE going with a War Hulk, I'd recommend either Cleric (for Persistent Divine Power) or investing in a Skilled weapon. The BAB penalty hurts big-time otherwise.
Marcus Majarra
09-27-05, 04:44 PM Two things:

1) Goliaths aren't large. They do not qualify for War Hulk. There are only certain feats that normally require large characters that can also be taken by a Powerfully Built medium character.

2) No, Enlarge Person will not work on a Goliath on account of being a monstrous humanoid. The spell only works on humanoids. The Expansion power, however, works.
Yellowsnow6967
09-27-05, 04:47 PM If this is a 20th lvl campain then I would go Half-Ogre Barbarian 10/ Warhulk 10. Make ur STR 18 natural, and put all 5 bonuses in it. Half-ogres get +6 to str so with the WH PrC u have a natural 49 str. Read a tomb and get a belt of Giant STR +6 and that makes ur STR 60!!! Take the Monkey Grip Feat in CW and weild a Gargantuan Great Sword or Greataxe. Talk about ownage.
Khazra Reborn
09-27-05, 04:53 PM firstly you didnt pay for your LA, secondly you have BaB10...

Why do you want the warhulk? if its for massive strength, you can get that other ways...
TheVatican
09-27-05, 06:26 PM What is the expansion power? This is in reference to the spell Enlarge.

The reason I was thinking of going warhulk is because I did not want to go frenzied berserker, which does not sound like a fun cahr to play, since I will basically kill my own teammates. I just thought that it would be a good PrC to go into? I would entertain other thoughts.

Are there other PrC's that are good in terms of gaining Str? I want to play a goliath because of there ability to leap without having to run for 10 feet before leaping and having bonuses to running over some obstacles.

I want to make a barbarian that has the feats, shock trooper, leap attack, combat brute, Brutal throw (for STR based missle attacks) and hurling throw so that I can throuw a weapon and then hit with a charge attack. I want to be a charger who bull rushes and then gets some nice sundering and trip perks. Being a goliath will help with this, especially the leap attacks and charging. I plan on using axes, so that I can throw an axe while charging and then hit with a charge.

Plus I want to be a barbarian that does this.

This is the basic plan I was going with. I thought that with all the str bonuses a warhulk got, that would benefit me tremendously will all the oppsed checks from tripping and bull rushing.

Any thoughts?
Antendren
09-27-05, 09:14 PM 1. The official word is that Massive Build does NOT qualify a Goliath for War Hulk. So take the first Barbarian substitution level, and be sure to pick up Extra Rage. If you're of the lose-abilities-when-you-lose-prereqs camp, then No Time to Think doesn't affect you when not raging.
Marcus Majarra
09-27-05, 09:48 PM So take the first Barbarian substitution level, and be sure to pick up Extra Rage. If you're of the lose-abilities-when-you-lose-prereqs camp, then No Time to Think doesn't affect you when not raging.
Meeting a PrC's requirements doesn't work that way. Unless the PrC states that you can meet the requirements temporarily (as is with Warshapers), you don't qualify for it.

Also, Expansion is a 1st-level Psion and Psychic Warrior power. It increases the manifester's size category by one or more increments.
allenchan
09-27-05, 10:49 PM Meeting a PrC's requirements doesn't work that way. Unless the PrC states that you can meet the requirements temporarily (as is with Warshapers), you don't qualify for it.

Is there a rule I dont know about? I think this would be in the same league (temporarily qualifying) as you can use magic items that grant feats to get you into PrCs. If you loose the item, you just loose the abilities of the PrC. And I agree, unlike most Prc's, I could see this as being beneficial because you'd lose No Time to Think.
Khan the Destroyer
09-28-05, 12:30 AM I'm assuming that your DM is allowing the Powerful Build ability to qualify for the Warhulk's 'Large size' requirement (which as far as I know, has been officially disallowed).

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 8/Warhulk 10

Wolf Totem Babarian gets you Improved Trip at second level as a bonus feat (it is in Unearthed Arcane, I hope you can use it). Make sure to grab the 1st level Substitution for Goliaths, that way you can take advantage of the Warhulk's Massive Swing abilities. Extra Rage will be helpful for raging more than once a day. The 8 Fighter levels allow you to grab all of those feats that you want.

1. Barbarian 1 (Extra Rage)
2. Barbarian 2 (Improved Trip)
3. Fighter 1 (Power Attack, Knock-Down)
4. Fighter 2 (Improved Bull Rush)
5. Fighter 3
6. Fighter 4 (Improved Sunder, Shock Trooper)
7. Fighter 5
8. Fighter 6 (Combat Brute)
9. Fighter 7 (Leap Attack)
10. Fighter 8 (Cleave)
11.-20. Warhulk

Alright, your BAB will suck after level 10 (since it won't go any higher). As someone already suggested, I would suggest a Skillful weapon, found in Complete Arcane or Adventurer, I'm not sure. It sets your BAB at medium (3/4 your character level, or +15 at level 20). That way you can at least power attack for some decent damage (Heedless Charge from Shock Trooper will offset the penalty to your attack roll).

I would suggest a Goliath Greathammer for a weapon. It deals decent damage and gives a bonus to Sunder attempts. Sundering Cleave is awesome... if you sunder the weapon. Your weapon will be large, which is a bonus to Sunder, the Goliath Greathammer gives another bonus, you get +4 from Improved Sunder, and you have a crazy strength. Then figure if you charge with Leap Attack and Power Attack for full, you'll be dealing crazy damage. That weapon is going down. And Sundering Cleave lets you attack the wielder after you smash his weapon into tiny bits (as you most likely already know :)).

I would definately suggest Rampaging Bull Rush and Knockback as well for feats. You can find them in Races of Stone. You can control the battlefield pretty well with these feats, knocking enemies away from you and prone. Pretty much, you'll have some sweet options open to you: sundering, tripping, bull rushing, power attacking. All should be pretty viable as well, giving your size and strength and feats.

One final note... the Goliath Greathammer is nice when you are just charging an opponent and feel like making him crap his pants by smashing hit weapon, knocking him down to the ground, and smashing his face in. But sometimes you're surrounded, or your enemies are close or you just feel like sweeping around you. In this instance, a reach weapon would benefit you greatly when taking advantage of a Warhulk's Massive Swing ability. If you are raging and large, a reach weapon will double your reach to 20 ft. Your BAB of +15 (with the weapon) will allow you to make 3 Massive Swings, which will hit everyone within your reach. You can Bull Rush/Trip/Sunder/etc... all of these guys if you want. Talk about a crazy number of attacks.
PhoenixInferno
09-28-05, 01:28 AM We need to stop making suggestions until he answers the following question:
What books do you have available to you?
Surreal
09-28-05, 02:33 AM Only take 4 levels of Warhulk. The rest isn't really worth it.
Khan the Destroyer
09-28-05, 03:13 AM Only take 4 levels of Warhulk. The rest isn't really worth it.
Could you elaborate a little? I understand the utter lack of BAB is killer, but the Warhulk is pretty effective at doing what it is supposed to, which is dominate enemies within the area it threatens.

As far as to-hit is concerned, the +2 strength cancels out the lack of BAB at every level (assuming a melee attack of course). The kicker for this build is the Skillful weapon enhancement, which gives +15 BAB at 20th level. Not only will his attack roll increase, but Mighty/Massive Swings are attack actions. Meaning he can make one for each attack he has in a round. Three Massive Swings in 1 round means he gets 2 attacks at everyone within reach. A Warhulk can easily have a 20 ft. reach. Even with only two enemies within his reach that is still double the attacks in 1 round with an insane bonus to damage thanks to his strength.

This character won't be too limited though. For range, he can grab Brutal Throw and put that huge strength to good use again (I would suggest against Power Throw by the way). And his feats give him several options in combat to control the battlefield. Bull-rushed, prone opponents with sundered weapons is nothing to scoff at.

Granted, without the Skillful weapon, he loses one attack and +5 to-hit, but he would still be a decent melee combatant. I sort of see what your saying (I know you didn't say much :)), but I don't think it would be so bad in this case.
Caelic
09-28-05, 09:23 AM Not only will his attack roll increase, but Mighty/Massive Swings are attack actions. Meaning he can make one for each attack he has in a round.

Actually...in yet another of those wonderfully contradictory examples of WotC writing...they're standard actions, not attack actions, although it's clearly implied that they're supposed to be usable for multiple attacks.
Khan the Destroyer
09-28-05, 10:02 AM Actually...in yet another of those wonderfully contradictory examples of WotC writing...they're standard actions, not attack actions, although it's clearly implied that they're supposed to be usable for multiple attacks.
I checked the errata before I posted just to be sure and they were errated to 'attack' actions.

But yes, the text in the book is indeed contradictory.
TheVatican
09-28-05, 11:27 AM Wow thanks, Well, we can pretty much use all the core books. Our DM's do not want us to use Unearthed arcane and eberron, though it is mostly for the cheater stuff in the books. I think that I can convince them to let me use the alternate barb builds.

Hmmmm I see how the lack of getting BAB sucks in terms of number of attacks. What is the cost to a skillfull weapon? +2?

I appreciate all the help guys.

Can you elaborate a little on avoiding the "no time to think" ability?

Your help is invaluable.
Caelic
09-28-05, 11:36 AM Err...I'm not sure how to elaborate. A Warhulk has zero ranks in all Int, Cha, and Wis based skills except Intimidate. He can't gain any ranks in such skills.

You'll be big and strong. That's it.
TheVatican
09-28-05, 12:38 PM Sundering. I am not sure I like the skill to much, simply because you are destroying a potential money maker or a replacement weapon. I mean is it possible to cast mend ( or a higher version of it) on the weapon and make it whole again?
The Rizz
09-28-05, 02:00 PM I checked the errata before I posted just to be sure and they were errated to 'attack' actions.Uh... where is this errata? I checked the errata section on the Wizards site and the Miniatures Handbook is not listed there.
Khan the Destroyer
09-28-05, 02:15 PM Uh... where is this errata? I checked the errata section on the Wizards site and the Miniatures Handbook is not listed there.
Right here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031030x)

At the bottom.
El_Machinae
09-28-05, 08:09 PM I've put a lot of thought into the Warhulk and there are a few tidbits.
- you don't really need a BAB higher than 5 until you get the final Swing ability (since a Full Attack or Standard Action are needed before hand), but higher BAB of course can help.
- reach weapons are your friend (duh)

I recommend Half-Giant to start - mainly because it's SRD and the Reincarnation tables COULD be your friend. From a low-level build, you'll have to play somewhat conservatively because of your LA, hence the ability to use thrown weapons earlier on. Toss weapons from afar and rush in to grapple once people are tied up in combat.

Mnk 2/Pal 2/Ftr 2/Clr 1/Whk 4/MT 2/Whk 6

Monk 1 (Imp. Grapple)(Point Blank Shot)
Monk 2 (Combat Reflexes)(evasion) - use a halberd and armor
Pal 1 (Precise Shot)
Pal 2 (Divine Grace - you'll need it)
Ftr 1 (Power Attack)
Ftr 2 (Cleave) (Ancestral Relic) - the relic (I recommend a staff) changes as you level. As first, you'll need something which gives you permanent Alter Self (to alter into an Ogre Mage)
Cleric 1 (Fate is a good domain)(War is good too, if your DM agrees to thrown rocks, to qualify for Master Thrower) - necessary for using wands of Divine Power later on.
Warhulk 1-4 - from here on out just grab feats that you'll like
Master Thrower 1,2 will give you improved evasion and since you've got your rock throwing from Warhulk, you can use the tricks here.
Surreal
09-29-05, 03:09 AM Could you elaborate a little? I understand the utter lack of BAB is killer, but the Warhulk is pretty effective at doing what it is supposed to, which is dominate enemies within the area it threatens.

It's just that 'mighty swing' is really the best ability of the class, unless you're really intent on throwing rocks at large mobs of fodder. You're better off spending the remaining levels picking up more useful combat abilities. Barbarian prestige classes for example will net you valuable BAB and the rages will make up for the lost STR boosts.
Khan the Destroyer
09-29-05, 03:41 AM I see what you are saying. I guess I see the Warhulk a little differently. I think with the proper build, you may be able to overcome the lack of BAB. Yeah, he won't be pretty when it comes to skills, but he isn't supposed to be. He may not have the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack, but he can hammer away at everyone within his reach several times. And with Knock-Down and Improved Trip, that can be a lot of attacks against everyone within 20 ft. More attacks than should be possible in a round.
Surreal
09-29-05, 12:16 PM But it's simply sub-optimal. You'll do more damage on average with straight BAB and rages, not to mention the ability to power attack for higher amounts (which is where your real damage will be coming from).

Brief comparisons:
6 levels of Warhulk = an effective +6 to hit and +6 damage/hit
6 levels of Frenzied Berzerker = effective +9 hit, +3 damage/hit, better power attack
6 levels of fighter = effective +6 to hit, more tactical feats

That's not to say I don't like the class, but you should drop out after 4 levels for the ability to smack around mobs. Beyond that, the +2 str/level just isn't worth it compared to what you can get from other classes.

Another option is to start with some cleric levels if you want to go full Warhulk, and cast Divine Power. This will grant you full BAB per hd as well as another +6 Str. If you have the strength domain, then you can enlarge yourself as well :)
Khazra Reborn
09-29-05, 12:45 PM I think human cleric10/warhulk10 is pretty much the best warhulk build around because persistant divine power is sick! Plus, as mentioned before, you can cast enlarge person & have it made permenant to qualify!
I think that a few fast progression divine classes could make it possible aswell, whilst leaving room for fighter levels & feats.
fighter2/monk3/Ur priest5/warhulk10 is pretty good....having said that theres much better places that could go.

fighter4/barbarian1/warhulk4/divine crusader5/warhulk5-10
With war domain
El_Machinae
09-29-05, 07:30 PM Please note that the rock-throwing ability is actually quite powerful - it's worth more than one feat (since you add your Str to the 'to hit' and it does decent damage).

As well, you make "one attack roll" when doing the mighty swing - I'm assuming that includes Smites, True Strikes, and whatnot. That's why you want the Fate Domain ... to use the wand of True Strike.

My build has really great saves and Improved Evasion. Finally, I feel that it has very little weakness at any level.
TheVatican
09-30-05, 11:10 AM how did you get the ability of evasion? Did you put some monk or rogue into your build? Can you post your build?
Khan the Destroyer
09-30-05, 11:24 AM He gets it from Master Thrower and Monk.

He did post his build. It is post number 21 I believe, in this thread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheVatican 09-27-05, 04:40 PM	I have decided to build a Goliath Warhulk. What I am deciding is whether I should build him with fighter or barbarian levels? Also, I looked on the wizards website that has the Warhulk PrC, and it mentions on the graph that it gets "no time to think" as a PrC ability, yet it does not explain it below? Is this the drawback to the WH? If I go barbarian i will have some nice barb. abilities, but if I go with a warrior I will have more feats. Also, what Other PRC should I take after after 15th level? Basically (5barb/10WH/5? or 5warrior/10WH/5 ?) The hulking hurler build is a bit too cheesy, so I am looking for another build. One last thing about Goliaths, will enlarge person affect them? or those monstrous build prevent that from happening? Thanks for the help
Caelic 09-27-05, 04:43 PM	A number of things: 1. The official word is that Massive Build does NOT qualify a Goliath for War Hulk. Your DM may or may not be willing to overlook that. 2. "No Time To Think" is a fairly significant drawback. In essence, you lose all ranks in any Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skills, and can never gain ranks in any such skill. The only exception is Intimidate. 3. If you ARE going with a War Hulk, I'd recommend either Cleric (for Persistent Divine Power) or investing in a Skilled weapon. The BAB penalty hurts big-time otherwise.
Marcus Majarra 09-27-05, 04:44 PM	Two things: 1) Goliaths aren't large. They do not qualify for War Hulk. There are only certain feats that normally require large characters that can also be taken by a Powerfully Built medium character. 2) No, Enlarge Person will not work on a Goliath on account of being a monstrous humanoid. The spell only works on humanoids. The Expansion power, however, works.
Yellowsnow6967 09-27-05, 04:47 PM	If this is a 20th lvl campain then I would go Half-Ogre Barbarian 10/ Warhulk 10. Make ur STR 18 natural, and put all 5 bonuses in it. Half-ogres get +6 to str so with the WH PrC u have a natural 49 str. Read a tomb and get a belt of Giant STR +6 and that makes ur STR 60!!! Take the Monkey Grip Feat in CW and weild a Gargantuan Great Sword or Greataxe. Talk about ownage.
Khazra Reborn 09-27-05, 04:53 PM	firstly you didnt pay for your LA, secondly you have BaB10... Why do you want the warhulk? if its for massive strength, you can get that other ways...
TheVatican 09-27-05, 06:26 PM	What is the expansion power? This is in reference to the spell Enlarge. The reason I was thinking of going warhulk is because I did not want to go frenzied berserker, which does not sound like a fun cahr to play, since I will basically kill my own teammates. I just thought that it would be a good PrC to go into? I would entertain other thoughts. Are there other PrC's that are good in terms of gaining Str? I want to play a goliath because of there ability to leap without having to run for 10 feet before leaping and having bonuses to running over some obstacles. I want to make a barbarian that has the feats, shock trooper, leap attack, combat brute, Brutal throw (for STR based missle attacks) and hurling throw so that I can throuw a weapon and then hit with a charge attack. I want to be a charger who bull rushes and then gets some nice sundering and trip perks. Being a goliath will help with this, especially the leap attacks and charging. I plan on using axes, so that I can throw an axe while charging and then hit with a charge. Plus I want to be a barbarian that does this. This is the basic plan I was going with. I thought that with all the str bonuses a warhulk got, that would benefit me tremendously will all the oppsed checks from tripping and bull rushing. Any thoughts?
Antendren 09-27-05, 09:14 PM	1. The official word is that Massive Build does NOT qualify a Goliath for War Hulk. So take the first Barbarian substitution level, and be sure to pick up Extra Rage. If you're of the lose-abilities-when-you-lose-prereqs camp, then No Time to Think doesn't affect you when not raging.
Marcus Majarra 09-27-05, 09:48 PM	So take the first Barbarian substitution level, and be sure to pick up Extra Rage. If you're of the lose-abilities-when-you-lose-prereqs camp, then No Time to Think doesn't affect you when not raging. Meeting a PrC's requirements doesn't work that way. Unless the PrC states that you can meet the requirements temporarily (as is with Warshapers), you don't qualify for it. Also, Expansion is a 1st-level Psion and Psychic Warrior power. It increases the manifester's size category by one or more increments.
allenchan 09-27-05, 10:49 PM	Meeting a PrC's requirements doesn't work that way. Unless the PrC states that you can meet the requirements temporarily (as is with Warshapers), you don't qualify for it. Is there a rule I dont know about? I think this would be in the same league (temporarily qualifying) as you can use magic items that grant feats to get you into PrCs. If you loose the item, you just loose the abilities of the PrC. And I agree, unlike most Prc's, I could see this as being beneficial because you'd lose No Time to Think.
Khan the Destroyer 09-28-05, 12:30 AM	I'm assuming that your DM is allowing the Powerful Build ability to qualify for the Warhulk's 'Large size' requirement (which as far as I know, has been officially disallowed). Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 8/Warhulk 10 Wolf Totem Babarian gets you Improved Trip at second level as a bonus feat (it is in Unearthed Arcane, I hope you can use it). Make sure to grab the 1st level Substitution for Goliaths, that way you can take advantage of the Warhulk's Massive Swing abilities. Extra Rage will be helpful for raging more than once a day. The 8 Fighter levels allow you to grab all of those feats that you want. 1. Barbarian 1 (Extra Rage) 2. Barbarian 2 (Improved Trip) 3. Fighter 1 (Power Attack, Knock-Down) 4. Fighter 2 (Improved Bull Rush) 5. Fighter 3 6. Fighter 4 (Improved Sunder, Shock Trooper) 7. Fighter 5 8. Fighter 6 (Combat Brute) 9. Fighter 7 (Leap Attack) 10. Fighter 8 (Cleave) 11.-20. Warhulk Alright, your BAB will suck after level 10 (since it won't go any higher). As someone already suggested, I would suggest a Skillful weapon, found in Complete Arcane or Adventurer, I'm not sure. It sets your BAB at medium (3/4 your character level, or +15 at level 20). That way you can at least power attack for some decent damage (Heedless Charge from Shock Trooper will offset the penalty to your attack roll). I would suggest a Goliath Greathammer for a weapon. It deals decent damage and gives a bonus to Sunder attempts. Sundering Cleave is awesome... if you sunder the weapon. Your weapon will be large, which is a bonus to Sunder, the Goliath Greathammer gives another bonus, you get +4 from Improved Sunder, and you have a crazy strength. Then figure if you charge with Leap Attack and Power Attack for full, you'll be dealing crazy damage. That weapon is going down. And Sundering Cleave lets you attack the wielder after you smash his weapon into tiny bits (as you most likely already know :)). I would definately suggest Rampaging Bull Rush and Knockback as well for feats. You can find them in Races of Stone. You can control the battlefield pretty well with these feats, knocking enemies away from you and prone. Pretty much, you'll have some sweet options open to you: sundering, tripping, bull rushing, power attacking. All should be pretty viable as well, giving your size and strength and feats. One final note... the Goliath Greathammer is nice when you are just charging an opponent and feel like making him crap his pants by smashing hit weapon, knocking him down to the ground, and smashing his face in. But sometimes you're surrounded, or your enemies are close or you just feel like sweeping around you. In this instance, a reach weapon would benefit you greatly when taking advantage of a Warhulk's Massive Swing ability. If you are raging and large, a reach weapon will double your reach to 20 ft. Your BAB of +15 (with the weapon) will allow you to make 3 Massive Swings, which will hit everyone within your reach. You can Bull Rush/Trip/Sunder/etc... all of these guys if you want. Talk about a crazy number of attacks.
PhoenixInferno 09-28-05, 01:28 AM	We need to stop making suggestions until he answers the following question: What books do you have available to you?
Surreal 09-28-05, 02:33 AM	Only take 4 levels of Warhulk. The rest isn't really worth it.
Khan the Destroyer 09-28-05, 03:13 AM	Only take 4 levels of Warhulk. The rest isn't really worth it. Could you elaborate a little? I understand the utter lack of BAB is killer, but the Warhulk is pretty effective at doing what it is supposed to, which is dominate enemies within the area it threatens. As far as to-hit is concerned, the +2 strength cancels out the lack of BAB at every level (assuming a melee attack of course). The kicker for this build is the Skillful weapon enhancement, which gives +15 BAB at 20th level. Not only will his attack roll increase, but Mighty/Massive Swings are attack actions. Meaning he can make one for each attack he has in a round. Three Massive Swings in 1 round means he gets 2 attacks at everyone within reach. A Warhulk can easily have a 20 ft. reach. Even with only two enemies within his reach that is still double the attacks in 1 round with an insane bonus to damage thanks to his strength. This character won't be too limited though. For range, he can grab Brutal Throw and put that huge strength to good use again (I would suggest against Power Throw by the way). And his feats give him several options in combat to control the battlefield. Bull-rushed, prone opponents with sundered weapons is nothing to scoff at. Granted, without the Skillful weapon, he loses one attack and +5 to-hit, but he would still be a decent melee combatant. I sort of see what your saying (I know you didn't say much :)), but I don't think it would be so bad in this case.
Caelic 09-28-05, 09:23 AM	Not only will his attack roll increase, but Mighty/Massive Swings are attack actions. Meaning he can make one for each attack he has in a round. Actually...in yet another of those wonderfully contradictory examples of WotC writing...they're standard actions, not attack actions, although it's clearly implied that they're supposed to be usable for multiple attacks.
Khan the Destroyer 09-28-05, 10:02 AM	Actually...in yet another of those wonderfully contradictory examples of WotC writing...they're standard actions, not attack actions, although it's clearly implied that they're supposed to be usable for multiple attacks. I checked the errata before I posted just to be sure and they were errated to 'attack' actions. But yes, the text in the book is indeed contradictory.
TheVatican 09-28-05, 11:27 AM	Wow thanks, Well, we can pretty much use all the core books. Our DM's do not want us to use Unearthed arcane and eberron, though it is mostly for the cheater stuff in the books. I think that I can convince them to let me use the alternate barb builds. Hmmmm I see how the lack of getting BAB sucks in terms of number of attacks. What is the cost to a skillfull weapon? +2? I appreciate all the help guys. Can you elaborate a little on avoiding the "no time to think" ability? Your help is invaluable.
Caelic 09-28-05, 11:36 AM	Err...I'm not sure how to elaborate. A Warhulk has zero ranks in all Int, Cha, and Wis based skills except Intimidate. He can't gain any ranks in such skills. You'll be big and strong. That's it.
TheVatican 09-28-05, 12:38 PM	Sundering. I am not sure I like the skill to much, simply because you are destroying a potential money maker or a replacement weapon. I mean is it possible to cast mend ( or a higher version of it) on the weapon and make it whole again?
The Rizz 09-28-05, 02:00 PM	I checked the errata before I posted just to be sure and they were errated to 'attack' actions.Uh... where is this errata? I checked the errata section on the Wizards site and the Miniatures Handbook is not listed there.
Khan the Destroyer 09-28-05, 02:15 PM	Uh... where is this errata? I checked the errata section on the Wizards site and the Miniatures Handbook is not listed there. Right here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031030x) At the bottom.
El_Machinae 09-28-05, 08:09 PM	I've put a lot of thought into the Warhulk and there are a few tidbits. - you don't really need a BAB higher than 5 until you get the final Swing ability (since a Full Attack or Standard Action are needed before hand), but higher BAB of course can help. - reach weapons are your friend (duh) I recommend Half-Giant to start - mainly because it's SRD and the Reincarnation tables COULD be your friend. From a low-level build, you'll have to play somewhat conservatively because of your LA, hence the ability to use thrown weapons earlier on. Toss weapons from afar and rush in to grapple once people are tied up in combat. Mnk 2/Pal 2/Ftr 2/Clr 1/Whk 4/MT 2/Whk 6 Monk 1 (Imp. Grapple)(Point Blank Shot) Monk 2 (Combat Reflexes)(evasion) - use a halberd and armor Pal 1 (Precise Shot) Pal 2 (Divine Grace - you'll need it) Ftr 1 (Power Attack) Ftr 2 (Cleave) (Ancestral Relic) - the relic (I recommend a staff) changes as you level. As first, you'll need something which gives you permanent Alter Self (to alter into an Ogre Mage) Cleric 1 (Fate is a good domain)(War is good too, if your DM agrees to thrown rocks, to qualify for Master Thrower) - necessary for using wands of Divine Power later on. Warhulk 1-4 - from here on out just grab feats that you'll like Master Thrower 1,2 will give you improved evasion and since you've got your rock throwing from Warhulk, you can use the tricks here.
Surreal 09-29-05, 03:09 AM	Could you elaborate a little? I understand the utter lack of BAB is killer, but the Warhulk is pretty effective at doing what it is supposed to, which is dominate enemies within the area it threatens. It's just that 'mighty swing' is really the best ability of the class, unless you're really intent on throwing rocks at large mobs of fodder. You're better off spending the remaining levels picking up more useful combat abilities. Barbarian prestige classes for example will net you valuable BAB and the rages will make up for the lost STR boosts.
Khan the Destroyer 09-29-05, 03:41 AM	I see what you are saying. I guess I see the Warhulk a little differently. I think with the proper build, you may be able to overcome the lack of BAB. Yeah, he won't be pretty when it comes to skills, but he isn't supposed to be. He may not have the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack, but he can hammer away at everyone within his reach several times. And with Knock-Down and Improved Trip, that can be a lot of attacks against everyone within 20 ft. More attacks than should be possible in a round.
Surreal 09-29-05, 12:16 PM	But it's simply sub-optimal. You'll do more damage on average with straight BAB and rages, not to mention the ability to power attack for higher amounts (which is where your real damage will be coming from). Brief comparisons: 6 levels of Warhulk = an effective +6 to hit and +6 damage/hit 6 levels of Frenzied Berzerker = effective +9 hit, +3 damage/hit, better power attack 6 levels of fighter = effective +6 to hit, more tactical feats That's not to say I don't like the class, but you should drop out after 4 levels for the ability to smack around mobs. Beyond that, the +2 str/level just isn't worth it compared to what you can get from other classes. Another option is to start with some cleric levels if you want to go full Warhulk, and cast Divine Power. This will grant you full BAB per hd as well as another +6 Str. If you have the strength domain, then you can enlarge yourself as well :)
Khazra Reborn 09-29-05, 12:45 PM	I think human cleric10/warhulk10 is pretty much the best warhulk build around because persistant divine power is sick! Plus, as mentioned before, you can cast enlarge person & have it made permenant to qualify! I think that a few fast progression divine classes could make it possible aswell, whilst leaving room for fighter levels & feats. fighter2/monk3/Ur priest5/warhulk10 is pretty good....having said that theres much better places that could go. fighter4/barbarian1/warhulk4/divine crusader5/warhulk5-10 With war domain
El_Machinae 09-29-05, 07:30 PM	Please note that the rock-throwing ability is actually quite powerful - it's worth more than one feat (since you add your Str to the 'to hit' and it does decent damage). As well, you make "one attack roll" when doing the mighty swing - I'm assuming that includes Smites, True Strikes, and whatnot. That's why you want the Fate Domain ... to use the wand of True Strike. My build has really great saves and Improved Evasion. Finally, I feel that it has very little weakness at any level.
TheVatican 09-30-05, 11:10 AM	how did you get the ability of evasion? Did you put some monk or rogue into your build? Can you post your build?
Khan the Destroyer 09-30-05, 11:24 AM	He gets it from Master Thrower and Monk. He did post his build. It is post number 21 I believe, in this thread.