Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LogicNinja 10-07-06, 11:32 PM	...and wanting to focus on archery and melee. Divine Metamagic is not a place I'm willing to go, and the Complete Divine and Complete Arcane aren't on the Books Allowed list, which consists of: PHB, DMG, MM1, MM2, Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting, Lost Empires of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Spell Compendium, Draconomicon, Stormwrack. Things I want: -Trapfinding. -Chameleon 7, leaving five levels -Archery and melee. This could be accomplished by raising WIS (Zen Archery) and STR (melee), or by just raising DEX and taking Weapon Finesse, then either raising WIS (AC, with monk levels or a Monk's Belt, and divine casting) or INT (Arcane casting). -Melee/archery capability while preferably not losing either divine or arcane spellcasting. It's 40-point buy. I was thinking STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 10 for the STR/WIS Zen Archer: (Edit: with 3 stat points from level up--2 into WIS and one into DEX to qualify for Manyshot and the like). Rogue 1/Monk 2/Ranger 2->Chameleon 7. H: Able Learner 1: Point Blank Shot M1: Stunning Fist M2: Combat Reflexes 3: Precise Shot R1: Track R2: Rapid Shot 6: Zen Archery 9: Power Attack 12: ??? Floating Feat: ??? I could use a Monk's Belt instead of Monk levels, replacing them with Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3 and use an Elven Courtblade or a Spiked Chain to get INT as well as STR to damage. Without Monk, though, no Stunning Fist... Or STR 11, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 10 for the Finesse/Dex archer version, that could look like this: Rogue2/Swash 3/Chameleon 7 (With all three level-up stats sunk into dex) H: Able Learner 1: Point Blank Shot Sw1: Weapon Finesse 3: Precise Shot 6: Rapid Shot 9: Power Attack 12: EWP: Elven Courtblade (2:1 Power Attack) Floating Feat: ??? Both look a little mediocre. Am I trying to do too much? Should I focus on one kind of spellcasting and use the Combat Focus to boost my AB/damage?
LogicNinja 10-08-06, 09:04 PM	I'm a little thread bump, short and stout.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 10-08-06, 09:28 PM	Since you are looking for WIS synergy, have you explored a substitution angle using Ninja over Monk? Both get you the WIS-to-AC you are looking for. Also, if you are sticking with the WIS Synergy Chameleon and still want to use the Ranger 2 prefix, think of looking into a later build addition of the Nentyar Hunter (UE book) to use that beefy WIS mod to its all-inclusive spellcasting levels. Plus, it continues to give you all its rangerly goodness, skills, and other benefits.
Dragon3 10-08-06, 11:10 PM	Swordsage get wis to AC in light armor. If you don't mind one dip in warblade at 9th level, get Iron Heart Surge. This break any continuous effect such as disease, poison, antimagic field etc with no checks. Of course you need to be able to move so no daze or stun. :)
LogicNinja 10-08-06, 11:15 PM	Nentyar Hunter's not from one of my allowed books sadly. Tome of Battle also isn't on there, or I wouldn't be making a Chameleon, I'd be making a Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master. Ninja wasn't something I'd thought of--it gets trapfinding and WIS to AC. Ninja would be a good alternative to Rogue in the Rogue 2/Swash 3 version, but that one isn't WIS-based (and Ninja doesn't get Evasion). Using Ninja instead of Monk obviates the need for a Rogue level and thus nets me an extra point of BAB--but then I lose out on high-DC Stunning Fist and Evasion. It's a tough choice. :\ I'm not even sure whether to go WIS or DEX as a primary stat.
Wire 10-09-06, 12:48 AM	Since you are emphasizeing a strong investment in Archery I'd pass on the high-DC Stunning Fist angle. A Ninja 3 / Ranger 2 prefix nets you a BAB of +4 in 5 levels along with a super array of skills. Right out of the gate, you are a bonafide scout before entering Chameleon. It's a tough choice. :\ I'm not even sure whether to go WIS or DEX as a primary stat.If you go the route I mentioned above, WIS and DEX are of probable equal importance for your WIS Archer Scout. If trapfinding is a big issue for you, take the Tactile Trapsmith feat (CompAdv) so that INT can be a good candidate for a stat dump.
LogicNinja 10-09-06, 03:30 AM	Hmm. But if I go Ninja, I have WIS and DEX to AC, and WIS to AB if I take Zen Archery and DEX to melee if I take Weapon Finesse. It's solid, but focusing on both seems counterintuitive to me; the point of Zen Archery is to replace a high DEX with WIS, and then use that WIS for other things. A high STR/WIS character would do more damage (composite bow with a high STR rating), lose the same one feat (Zen Archery vs. Weapon Finesse), and get WIS to divine spellcasting. I don't see why the DEX-based one without Stunning Fist would need WIS. (Except for AC--but that doesn't mean you need to max it out.) How about a melee-heavy Chameleon? Without DMM(Persistent), what's a good entry--rogue2/swash3? Ninja2/Swash3? Ninja 3/Ranger 2?
X-Codes 10-09-06, 03:43 AM	It's a tough choice. :\ I'm not even sure whether to go WIS or DEX as a primary stat. Intuitave Attack. Use a Light Crossbow and a Longspear. Making a Light Crossbow reload as a free action is effectively a +1 magic item bonus (check the Miniatures Handbook, it's in there for cheaper).
LogicNinja 10-09-06, 04:31 AM	Intuitive Attack would be great (although I'd be hesitant due to the "wait, it does WHAT?!" factor)--if I could use the BoED.
Sang-Drax 10-09-06, 08:07 AM	IMHO, you are indeed aiming too high (:rimshot:). A decent archer demands lots of feats. I'd go for the melee/divine caster route.
LogicNinja 10-09-06, 08:59 AM	Fair enough. High STR and WIS, presumably. What would you recommend for base classes and feats? Ninja 3/Ranger 2? Power Attack seems like a poor choice given my low BAB--then again, I technically have access to Wraithstrike (presuming I want to pull that on my DM) so I'd better snag it, but I'm not sure where to go from there: I'm used to making battlefield controllers, and I don't really have the feats for it.
Surreal 10-09-06, 12:27 PM	Could you be a changeling, racially emulate an elf, grab two levels of Arcane Archer and use that with both your arcane and divine spells? Not sure if it's really that good or not; just a thought.
LogicNinja 10-09-06, 03:10 PM	I couldn't be a changeling, sadly, even though they're awesome. Arcane Archer wouldn't add much, and it would knock off Chameleon 7, which is what gives +4 stat boosts and Double Aptitutde. I was considering the STR/WIS melee chameleon, and I was leery at first, but then I figured that with access to the Bite of the Were-X spells and Divine Power I could be a pretty solid melee type. I've got some further questions: What do people think as to arcane focus vs. combat focus? Are middle-of-the-day arcane buffs and swift-action spells like Wraithstrike worth losing the +4 AB/damage from the combat focus? Is a quarterstaff the recommended weapon, due to the Spikes spell (even though it doesn't stack with Brambles as of the SpC)? For archer chameleons, and in fact cleric archers in general, without Divine Metamagic: what the heck kind of bow does one get? Does one set the +STR of the composite longbow based on one's fully-buffed strength (i.e. with the +6 from Divine Power, thus being screwed if one is unwilling or unable to cast the buff) or one's regular strength (thus losing the STR bonus to damage from Divine Power)? I've got 88k. Vital equipment, IMO: Bead of Karma (9k--Strand of Prayer Beads, minus the Bead of Smiting) - must-have. Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell (35k, ouch) - Worth it? 2x Lesser Rod of Extend Spell (2x 3k = 6k) Weapon (+1 Wounding?) - Quarterstaff? -No cloak of Resistance, will rely on Resistance spells from the SpC. -Handy Haversack (2k) -Boots of Elvenkind (2.5k) -Belt of Giant STR +4 (16k) - or maybe just +2, because of spells like Divine Power, Bite of the Were____, etc? -Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16k) That's 87k without even counting the weapon. Looks like I can't afford the Rod of Quicken. Ouch! Other than typical Ring of Protection, etc--what've I missed?