Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Belladonna5012 12-13-04, 11:08 AM	OK, I'm making a new character; I feel like it's time for a change of some sort. And I'm strongly leaning towards a fighter/arcanist on the grounds that it's just my favourite character type. I got a set of crappy random rolls (we get to make three using the standard 4d6, drop the lowest, and arrange as desired), so I'm thinking I should assign points by hand. In our game, instead of a normal point buy, we get a 78-point split--we buy right from 0, but there's no extra cost for stats above 14; it's a straight 1-to-1. Just in case anyone thinks a random roll that came out to 79 points would be better, my only roll that broke a total of 78 was 17/14/13/12/12/11, for a total of 79; I'm strongly leaning towards the 78-point split on the grounds that I can trick out the stats I need most. Current things I'm thinking of (this is mostly just me getting stuff off my chest and using this portion of the post as a sounding board): Enlightened Fist. My worry here is that it's hard to make an Enlightened Fist with a non-simply-horrific BAB, they have MAD like mad, and even more so considering you have to trick out their to-hit stat because of crappy BAB. Ergo, I'm not sure it's entirely feasible, given I didn't get a zomgawesome roll. Standard melee gish. I'm quite keen on 9th-level spells and a caster level of 20, so I'm thinking something like Fighter 1/arcanist 6/SS 3/EK 10. Archer gish. Just because it's a fun archetype. Probably similar to the melee gish above, only without the SS levels. Suel Arcanamach. This is one of those classes that gave me the oooers when I got a good look at it; I don't really know why. But the good skills and SP, as well as the fact that the schools it gets are reasonably well-suited to melee support, may have something to do with it. Havoc Mage. Probably Battle Sorceror 15/Havoc Mage 5, simply because they mesh easily. FFV-style Mystic Knight. This isn't a build idea so much as a concept which could be represented by a few different builds. The Mystic Knight in FFV was a fighter/caster which used "sword magic"--weapon buffs, but very powerful. I've identified a few different things which could represent this: the Blades of Fire spell (Complete Arcane, Miniatures Handbook), the Weapon of Energy spell (Savage Species, pretty much identical to the psionic power), Channel Spell, and Arcane Strike. A Suel Arcanamach could fit this role well; it gets access to both Arcane Strike and Weapon of Energy without further fooling. Other gishes would fill it just fine, too. Ultimate problem with Channel Spell is that it requires a 4th level of Spellsword, which isn't so hot. A few things which don't fit the fighter/arcanist concept that I've been considering: Ur-Priest. This is virtually the only divine caster I would consider; I have a categorical distaste for divine casters in general, with the notable exception of this one. My DM permits nonevil Ur-Priests. I'm thinking I would either go arcanist/Ur-Priest/MT, or Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist. Plain ol' arcanist. Probably with a PrC, though. The Alienist looks especially interesting to me--I'm not terribly interested in summoning; I just like how the class is a great representation of a complete and total whackjob. Now, the hitch is that I feel an innate leeriness of playing a character that isn't capable of physically defending herself in a crunch, regardless of how powerful she is otherwise. Arcane Trickster. I like roguish characters, but I don't like straight-up Rogues (which I discovered only by playing one). This seems a bit more attractive than an Assassin, somehow. Furthermore, it's one of those builds that suits Tieflings well, given their ability score adjustments and favoured class, and I kind of like Tieflings even if they're not that great mechanically. Again, I'm still leery of a character who can't physically defend herself. Sublime Chord. Goes with the "plain ol' arcanist" to some degree, only with a bit more spice, perhaps. Same worry about physical inability. Now, on to the real crunch. Note: My DM isn't too fond of letting us take more than two PrCs, and even then only if they fit the character in some way other than pure numbers. I.e., no sticking Dragonslayer in the build just for the proficiencies and spellcaster level. What kind of ability score distribution (78-point split, straight one-for-one, buying from 0) would be best for an Enlightened Fist build? The other builds aren't so daunting, but the Enlightened Fist's need for multiple stats, and high bonuses to her to-hit mod in particular, give me immense pause. Perhaps more importantly, is this even enough to build an Enlightened Fist on, or would I be better off skipping over the idea and saving it for a time I score better rolls? Is Diamond Soul worth it for an Enlightened Fist, if instead I could snatch up a couple of levels with better BAB and the same spellcaster level progression? With ten levels Enlightened Fist and one level Monk, that's only an SR of 21 at levels 15-20, which would easily be beaten by a caster of my level. It'd only be a small chance to avoid being affected by a spell; however, it's not a nonexistent one. At level 15, it'd be a 25% chance against a 15th-level caster without Spell Penetration or Arcane Mastery; granted, at 20, it'd only fail on a natural 1. I'm really not sure I want it that badly. I'm leery of the Sorceror--I'm one of those people that just doesn't think it's as good as the Wizard, all things considered. However, the fewer levels in one's primary casting class one has, the less of a loss bonus feats are (though free Scribe Scroll is very nice); granted, the Sorceror's extra spell slots are good for Arcane Strike; and Draconic Claw looks like a good deal for a fighter/arcanist (and lets you make use of Blood Wind; throwing my claws just sounds like too much fun). For what builds would the Sorceror easily be as good as or even better than a Wizard? What about when Battle Sorceror is added to the mix? What spells would be especially good for a fighter/arcanist to have, particularly if you have an ability that lets you fling a nuke and fight at the same time, like Battlecast, Arcane Fist, or Draconic Claw? I don't expect all of you to respond to everything I've posted; I'm just fishing for comments and general tips, like how you'd optimize any one of the builds or ideas above (I'm especially in need of help with the Enlightened Fist--how to distribute stats, how to make up for its crappy BAB, what races would be best, etc.). ~Belladonna Knight
ninjarabbit 12-13-04, 06:16 PM	I'll bounce a few ideas at you and see if any grab your attention: paladin2/battlesorcerer17/spellsword1(for the +2 to fort and will saves) or hexblade2/battlesorcerer18 elfparagon3/wizard4/fighter1/spellsword1/arcanearcher2/EK9 or elfparagon3/wizard6/fighter1/spellsword1/EK9 for your archer gish halflingparagon3/fighter12/masterthrower5, machine gun with shruikens rogue3/hexblade5/blackguard5/assassin3/mysticthurge4
Belladonna5012 12-13-04, 07:55 PM	I'll bounce a few ideas at you and see if any grab your attention: paladin2/battlesorcerer17/spellsword1(for the +2 to fort and will saves) or hexblade2/battlesorcerer18 Maybe, particularly if I opted for Paladin of Freedom. elfparagon3/wizard4/fighter1/spellsword1/arcanearcher2/EK9 or elfparagon3/wizard6/fighter1/spellsword1/EK9 for your archer gish Too many PrCs, unfortunately--I'm limited to two, by and large, and I haven't approached my DM about how he'd count Paragon classes. halflingparagon3/fighter12/masterthrower5, machine gun with shruikens Hm. Thanks for the idea, but it doesn't sound that interesting to me, unfortunately. :( rogue3/hexblade5/blackguard5/assassin3/mysticthurge4 Again, too many PrCs. Moreover, it's... awful wonky. Doesn't appeal to me that much. Thanks, though. :) ~Belladonna Knight
Mommy was an Orc 12-13-04, 09:43 PM	Have you considered Chameleon? I like these builds: Rogue 4/Ranger 3/Chameleon 10/Horizon Walker 3 Bard 4/Fighter 1/Chameleon 10/Spellsword 5 Basically, go Arcane Focus with Chameleon and then Combat Focus when you can do two of them. Put the attribute bonus on Strength. Max out Use Magic Device. This gives you essentially Bardic spellcasting with the ability to pick out Sorc/Wizard spells you like. The 1st is nice because you can Rage and not be fatigued. As Chameleon 10 can Rage 3/day, this is a useful thing. The 2nd is fun because you qualify for Spellsword with your Bard levels, but you can also cast your Chameleon Arcane spells in armor.
Random Hero 12-13-04, 10:23 PM	I seen Chameleon used in a few builds recently - but not sure where it from ... where is it from? :)
Mommy was an Orc 12-14-04, 02:01 AM	Races of Destiny. It is part of the preview on the website. here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b). Just as a note though, I think it is ridiculously unbalanced for a melee type. Outfight a Frenzied Berserker without buffing and cast spells as a 20th level Bard at 15th level. I seen Chameleon used in a few builds recently - but not sure where it from ... where is it from? :)
Cold Napalm 12-14-04, 03:49 AM	With complete arcane, I like spell channeling a lot now. fighter 1/wizard 5/EK 1/ spellsword 5/ EK 8 and with practiced spell caster you get CL 20. No 9th level spells though...but I find that spell channeling freezing fog almost makes up for it...and defenstraing sphere is just fun.
ninjarabbit 12-14-04, 09:31 AM	A few more ideas: hexblade10/dragondisciple10 rogue3/humanparagon3/ranger2/wizard4/eldricthknight8 - interesting triple threat build with BAB 16, CL 13, and some bonus feats, the EK levels could be traded for arcane trickster levels if you want more skills in exchange for BAB. paladin4/sorcerer2/dragonslayer7/spellsword7, paladin2/battlesorcerer11/dragonslayer7 or paladin4/battlesorcerer9/dragonslayer7
The Lone Drow 12-14-04, 10:52 AM	Nothing wrong with a Monk 4/Hexblade 2/Ranger 2/Suel Arcanamach 3/EF 9 with a monk's belt. Is there? :)
Belladonna5012 12-15-04, 01:51 PM	I'm actually really liking that Chameleon class, but to be honest, I already have a character whom it suits--the one I'm brewing will not be a Chameleon. Lone Drow's build looks interesting, especially what with the synergy between Hexblade and the Suel Arcanamach's casting stat. But granted, I don't know about Monk, and what are the Ranger levels there for? The only thing I can guess about Monk is to use it for unarmed attacks, unarmoured AC, and unarmoured running speed, but a Suel Arcanamach may as well use a weapon and wear armour--I'd need a crazy high Wisdom to outclass the bonuses I could get from wearing armour (barring touch AC or craploads of money spent on Bracers of Armour and Periapts of Wisdom in a slot that could have been used for Constitution or something, of course), and I do not like MAD. All I can see about Ranger 2 is the bonus feat, and that only applies to TWF (maybe you meant to use two Monk weapons and flurry with them?) or bows. I've considered a more vanilla Spellsword build, such as the Ftr 1/Wiz 5/EK 1/SS 5/EK 8, though I'd be more tempted to cut back on the Spellsword levels in order to keep 9th-level spells at the expense of Channel Spell. I don't much like Dragon Disciple, but thanks for the idea; Hexblade 10/Dragon Disciple 10 sounds reasonably solid, even if not up my alley. Your other build suggestions, ninjarabbit, also sound solid, though again, not up my alley, so to speak. Your ideas are very much appreciated, but I'm thinking I should just sit and stew on it a while--see what new stuff comes out in Races of Destiny and perhaps Complete Adventurer before I commit to anything. I'm interested in the new Ninja and Spellthief, and maybe the Scout will be interesting, too; I've also heard of some interesting feats in Races of Destiny that tickle my fancy. (I'm really wondering what the Able Learner feat is.) Maybe I'll do something else, like a dwarven Spellsword build (given its favoured class applies and it's good for both fighter-types and wizards, I just might do it; I've never played a dwarf before). Perhaps a dream dwarf Battle Sorceror; I might even be able to take the dwarven waraxe as my martial proficiency, given dwarven familiarity. I find the image of a little dwarven mage-warrior girl with a scary-big axe somehow endearing; I'll meditate on that for a while. Or perhaps a character inspired by La Pucelle Tactics's Eclair. Cute little girls as front-line melee specialists, while perhaps a bit out there, are just so kyooooote!. :'( ~Belladonna Knight
Cappo 12-15-04, 02:33 PM	I suggest a Monk 1/ Wiz 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10. Stats would look like 10/16/16/18/10/8. Do avoid MAD it's essential to take Kung Fu Genius. AC will be ridiculous high and you have a few nice tricks at hand. I'm building a similar character. At level 12 I'll take Extra Spell (Divine Power) for BAB 12. With Flurry and Haste that will mean 5 attacks per round. With Kiss of the Vampire all my 5 attacks will be Touch attacks that bestow Enervation on my poor enemy = lots of negative Levels.
Cold Napalm 12-15-04, 06:53 PM	Hehe cut back on the spell sword level by 2 and you have your build to start with hehe.
JosephKell 12-15-04, 10:36 PM	Sorcerer Perks: Spontaneous Casting. Sorcerers are the Masters of Metamagic because they cast spontaneously. Sure they can't use Quicken Spell, but they only have to apply certain metamagic when they need it. Specifically Still Spell, Silent Spell, Widen Spell... A Wizard has no reason to use Still Spell unless he or she plans to wear armor. However, if the Wizard is paralyzed (like by a Hold Person, a Poison, or Freezing the Lifeblood) he or she can't apply a metamagic feat to a special on the fly (with the exception of certain PrC's that have Instant Metamagic things). The whole reason Sorcerers have higher level spells pushed back a level is because in the original playtesting, Sorcerers were better than Wizards by a wide margin. And since--in all honesty--mages spend most of their time dropping the largest evocation spell on the enemy, being one level behind is not that big of a deal because you usually get the next level spell before the last ones cap out. Example: Burning Hands caps out at 5th level. You get 2nd level spells at 4th level. Fireburst (2nd level) caps out at 10th (I think). Lightning Bolt also tops off at 10th (10d6), but you get 4th at 8th level. People say Evocation is lame and you can do without it, but all of the players I know that play Arcane Casters don't forsake the school. In fact, it is usually the first spell scribbled down on their character sheet for each new spell level. Why? Because noncombat encounters typically aren't as pressed for time, but in combat, anything you can do to bloody the enemy quickly is much appreciated. Yes there are new spells that sort of fill the role of Evocation, but very few of the "replacement spells" are area effect. A new PC Idea I want to test out is based on a concept I read in Dragon #327. Sorcerer Antiheroes Undisciplined Punk: This sorcerer barely keeps his magical power under even the thinnest veneer of control. In his youth he lacked even that much restraint, and he might have brought about terrible destruction on his homeland. Suspicious and fearful of others--who blame him for past magical tragedies--he is prone to lashing out with his phenomenal magical powers. The strength of these powers often proves too valuable for the party to ignore. The article about antiheroes is basically about playable "bad" PC. Such a PC could turn into something of a Black Mage (see 8-bit theater). If you could, ask your DM if you can take the Flaw Loner to get rid of your familiar. Perhaps you can trade that in for Spell Focus (Evocation), Eschew Materials, or Improved Initiative; basically something that makes it easier to lash out with magic. This type of Sorcerer takes advantage of the Bluff skill to camoaflague his or her spells. It is important to also pick up skills and spells to prevent similiar magical assaults. Dispel Magic is an obvious one, but Spellcraft, Skill Focus (spellcraft), and even Magical Affinity might be necessary. Basically you end up with a Sorcerer who uses Magic as a cudgel.
Cold Napalm 12-16-04, 03:18 AM	Actually with all the conjuration attack spells along with necromancy attack spells, evocation is one of the easiest schools for me to give up. Currently my damage spells consist of lesser orb spells, vampiric touch, orb spells, disentigrate and finger of death. I use empower of some of the spells for increased damage.
Belladonna5012 12-16-04, 11:16 AM	OK, I think I'm going to ask a new question. One significantly more CO-oriented. Can an Enlightened Fist be made worthwhile, in comparison to other melee/arcanist builds? On a 78-point split? I have difficulty seeing how anyone can call it overpowered; as far as I can tell, if you want to keep the 9th-level spells you could have gotten relatively easily using a more vanilla EK/Spellsword build, you have to give up six BAB, armour, weapons that can be permanently enchanted, feats, and take massive MAD in return for two hit points, an undroppable weapon (which cannot be permanently enchanted), +2 unarmoured AC, some speed bonus, virtually worthless SR, the Fist of Energy/Arcane Fist/Hold Ray line, and adding unarmed damage to certain touch spells--though I question whether you will ever stand more than the most laughable chance of landing a hit. So what is it that makes others call it overpowered when it's so hard to see it standing up next to other, much easier, builds? I've been waiting for a Monk/arcanist PrC, but the Enlightened Fist, as far as I've been able to discern, is a slap in the face. How much would one need to soup up one's attack roll to expect to hit with more than the very first attack on an Enlightened Fist's crippled BAB? Thus far, I've calculated +11 or +12 (maybe) BAB, +5 enhancement from Greater Magic Weapon at caster level 20, +6 to +8 from one's ability score, and maybe, just maybe, a feat spent on Weapon Focus. That's between +22 and +26 to hit, or +24 smack-dab in the middle. Or, +20, +24, or +22 for two attacks if Flurry is used. Am I missing something, or is WotC really laughing at us? ~Belladonna Knight
JosephKell 12-16-04, 07:55 PM	Actually with all the conjuration attack spells along with necromancy attack spells, evocation is one of the easiest schools for me to give up. Currently my damage spells consist of lesser orb spells, vampiric touch, orb spells, disentigrate and finger of death. I use empower of some of the spells for increased damage.The power of Evocation doesn't lie in that it does damage. But that it does damage over an area. 10d6 damage to 4 enemies is better than 20d6 to 1 enemy.
ninjarabbit 12-16-04, 08:14 PM	Another point that needs to be made is that even if you make an evocation save you'll still take some damage (barring evasion) while with many of the other types of spells if you make the save nothing happens.
nihility 12-16-04, 10:19 PM	And since--in all honesty--mages spend most of their time dropping the largest evocation spell on the enemy, being one level behind is not that big of a deal because you usually get the next level spell before the last ones cap out. I've seen you make this point many times before, and I always end up wondering what sort of games make this kind of mindset seem reasonable. Is is just pure hack and slash? In the games I've had the most fun in, the wizard with lots of damage and evocation spells was usually considered the wizard who got the party killed. Then again, my favorite DM's mindset was something like "the PCs are very small fish in a very huge ocean, and big fish are quite common." He had no qualms about sending an adult blue dragon against a first level party, provided that there were ways available for us to find out about the danger and avoid it. This includes having the wizard memorize clairaudience/clairvoyance rather then another round of blasting. So, the smart wizard loaded up on social spells, information spells, utility spells, and escape spells, and left the damage spells for the wands. Personally, I always found this vastly more enjoyable than saying "I cast fireball" twenty times in a row every Friday. Then again, I am well aware of the fact that many people enjoy DnD as a tactical game, or as a miniatures war game. Are there other types of games besides these and hack and slash in which evocations are really so popular?
Mommy was an Orc 12-16-04, 10:28 PM	Monk 12/Suel Arcanamach 4/Enlightened Fist 4 - gives you 4th level spells and some interesting things to do with 16 uses of Stunning Fist. While still getting Greater Flurry, so you're really still a Monk in terms of combat. You don't get SR, but if you want to sacrifice a BAB, you can. Does some interesting things in combo with Arcane Strike. Hexblade 3/Monk 4/Suel Arcanamach 3/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Enlightened Fist 8 Okay, only a +14 BAB and 8th level spells. But if you max out charisma to 32, you're talking likely base saves of +19/+27/+31 against spells with Evasion and Mettle to top it off. Can an Enlightened Fist be made worthwhile, in comparison to other melee/arcanist builds?
paradoxmage 12-16-04, 11:49 PM	This is my Enlightened Fist write up. Fey'ri (pick suggestion 1/day to have the one 3rd level arcane spell for AT) Monk 2nd/Rogue 3rd/Wizard 1st/Arcane Trickster 4th/Enlightened Fist 10th Caster= 13th (7th level spells) Monk:2d6 unarmed,+2 AC,+40 speed,12 stunning fists Evasion summon familiar,scribe scroll for free trapfinding, trapsense +1 sneak attack: +4d6 All 7 of the EF abilities Ranged Legerdemain Impromptu sneak attack Base Atk: +12 saves:+8/+17/+17 HD:12d8+5d4+3d6
JosephKell 12-17-04, 02:38 AM	I've seen you make this point many times before, and I always end up wondering what sort of games make this kind of mindset seem reasonable. Is is just pure hack and slash?This is a rather rude question as it insinuates that people that use Evocation spells are newbies that play hack and slash. Question: What roles do mages typically contribute to? Answer: Combat Encounters, Divination (maybe once an adventure), Item Creation (between adventures)... Question: What is true about every combat encounter? Answer: There is are enemies with hit points that you want to bring down to -10 (or 0 if they are of certain types). A Fireball at Caster Level 5 deals 5d6 damage to a 20 ft radius burst. That could easily hit 7 or 8 enemies for 35d6 or 40d6 total damage. Look at how Dragons are used Tactically. If they can get even TWO targets with their breath weapon, it is the course of action (assuming their breath weapon isn't ineffective because of resistances and such). But if it is a choice of one target Breathweaponed or a Full Attack Action, the Full Attack nets more damage. Same thing with Evocation. If you can catch two or more targes, typically an Evocation spell will deal more damage. This isn't to say that Desintigrate isn't a good spell, it is a great spell when targeting a single foe.
ninjarabbit 12-17-04, 02:50 PM	monk2/wizard3/EF5/URpriest2/mystictheurge8, you end up with 9th level divine spells, 8th level arcane spells, and are effectively a 7th level monk, though you have the craptacular BAB of 10
nihility 12-17-04, 03:00 PM	This is a rather rude question as it insinuates that people that use Evocation spells are newbies that play hack and slash. You misunderstand. I listed three genres that I know of which clearly support evocation and damage spells over other types. I provided a contrasting experience of my own which does not support said spells. I wish to know if more genres exist in which evocations and damage spells come out on top. Any ill will you hold towards these genres is yours alone, not mine. To clarify that last bit: I like pointless violence as much as the next person. Heck, given the amount of time I have spent playing Counter-Strike, Tekken, and Street Fighter, it would be quite hypocritical of me to cast aspersions on games that are almost entirely focused on combat and fighting. I happen to prefer other genres for DnD, but that's hardly a reason to conclude that I think poorly of such genres. edit: Is there something wrong with hack and slash, by the way? Did I miss the post in which that term was declared an insult? edit 2: If it is the case that hack and slash is now considered an insulting term (which I would find hard to believe, given that my local game shops have adventures and modules that proudly advertise such content), then replace "You misunderstand" with "I chose my words poorly."
Cold Napalm 12-18-04, 06:30 AM	Yes I know area effect spells CAN do more damage. Course this assumes the enemy stays on nice clumps for you to hit them and your party members don't rush up and mix it up. Also me and other DM I play with basically go, so your casting an area effect spell...okay, you have 6 seconds to tell me which square or your spell fizzles. Your wizard does not have combat math where he can spend the eqv of 2 minutes calculations and mapping to try and get the most number of enemies while not hitting allies in 6 seconds. A round is 6 seconds...that's how long you got. For the more math challenged people, we give them 12 seconds. As for conjuration spells...umm the new orb spells ALWAYS do damage since they are no save AND no SR. Baring resistance anyways. Evocation is way overated. The only reason I usually don't drop it is so I can get fireshield for my gish builds. Most(90%) of my attack spells are either necromancy/conjuration/tansmutation spells.
Belladonna5012 12-20-04, 02:07 AM	Well, to return to the thread, you have some interesting ideas. Though I'm pretty sure the Fey'ri build is illegal (as the Arcane Trickster's spellcasting requirement is for a level of spell, not a specific spell, and thus cannot be satisfied by spell-like abilities). Mommy Was an Orc's build looks relatively solid, if a bit confusing. Ninjarabbit's build is also an interesting proposition; the 10 BAB is mega-eww, but the Ur-Priest does get Divine Power. However, I'm limited to two PrCs as a rule, and even then only if they both make sense for the character. However, it's possible that I might talk my DM into allowing me to take Sacred Fist in conjunction with (arcane) Enlightened Fist; he allowed us the possibility of taking Sacred Fist with increases to arcane spellcaster levels instead of divine spellcaster levels prior to the release of Complete Arcane. He's unpredictable, but if arcanization of the Sacred Fist were still permitted, that'd help. Some other ideas I've had: Battle Sorceror 12/Enlightened Fist 8 Fixes the BAB problem somewhat, though there's no flurry, no Wis to AC, and generally less in the way of Monk bonuses. It requires a Dexterity and Wisdom of 13 apiece to take Stunning Fist as a regular feat, though; further, the Battle Sorceror really doesn't have feats to go around. On the other hand, may as well wear armour; all you lose is one or two Monk AC, which is offset by the armour, and a little speed. Using Battle Sorceror instead of Sorceror or Wizard in an otherwise normal Enlightened Fist build Good for another one or two points of BAB in and of itself, depending upon how many levels are taken in one's primary arcane casting class, and the fact its spellcasting is staggered means you lose a lot less by giving up your 17th spellcaster level than if you were using Wizard--ergo, you can stick a second level in Monk, and get Evasion, improved damage/etc., and a bonus feat in addition to another point of BAB. Something else I've been thinking of is a more vanilla Battle Sorceror. Crank her Strength and Charisma and juice Arcane Strike for all it's worth. Only problem is deciding whether or not to go Havoc Mage--the Havoc Mage can focus massive power in a single attack with True Strike + Power Attack, and that's using a 1st-level spell slot. Whereas the straight-up Battle Sorceror is just the High Lord of Arcane Strike, with five 9th-level spell slots and three attacks per round (each with a respectable chance of hitting when cranking Arcane Strike) to the Havoc Mage's one when using Battlecast. Of course, you likely end up comparing the power of a 9th-level spell slot to what a Havoc Mage can do with a 1st-level one, though the straight-up Battle Sorceror does get more spells known and another point of BAB. Alternately, I could just go Havoc Mage, learn a few nukes, and get an ASF 0% light or heavy shield instead of going with True Strike + Power Attack... but with the Havoc Mage's easy prerequisites, I can pretty much do it whenever I want anytime after level 6, without having to decide very far in advance. And then there's the question of whether I'd want to get Draconic Claw. If that were the case, I'd have to consult my DM about whether a Battlecast spell still qualifies as a "standard action" spell for the purposes of activating the swift claw attack; that could get me two attacks a round as a Battle Sorceror, even if it would make the True Strike + Power Attack combo much less worthwhile. I'm thinking a dwarven Battle Sorceror (yes I know about the Charisma penalty). Put a full 8 points apiece into Str and Cha for 18/16 there, leaving another two points to raise Dexterity to 12 or Constitution to 14, or perhaps even Intelligence or Wisdom to 12, depending upon what lunatic justification I come up with. Naturally, my proficiency would be put in the waraxe, what with the treatment of it as martial and all. Oh, well. Again, I'm probably best off getting Races of Destiny before I commit... And I really don't want to wait until Complete Adventurer, but ten bucks says if I make this character before I get it, I'm going to find some option that would have been excellent had I known about it earlier. ~Belladonna Knight
JosephKell 12-20-04, 02:12 AM	That was a whole lot of excuses you just threw out there. Fact: If your party knows you can deal the equivalent of 40d6 damage with just a standard action, they will delay to let you do it. Heck, some beefer PC's will just say, "Nuke me with them," because doing the same damage to 5 enemies is worth your tank taking it. But yes, the new Orb spells are gravy. Part of the reason I love the Warmage. Now the only choice is what spell do I use to send them to their maker. ================================ Huh? Shoot, Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Havoc Mage 5 is beefy. Forget about iterative attacks and just do your Arcane Fist + True Strike + Power Attack thing to put the hurt on your enemy. Heck, throw a stunning fist in there to make even more things! Less Complicated form: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Havoc Mage 5/EK 10 use a two-handed weapon to double up the Power Attack damage (maybe a Spiked Chain for the reach and two-handed ness).
ninjarabbit 12-20-04, 05:34 PM	You might be better off being a gold dwarf for a battlesorcerer instead of a normal dwarf. It's the same as a normal dwarf except it get -2 to dex instead of cha. A better 2 PrC dwarf gish build methinks is a fighter2/wizard4/runesmith2(Races of Stone)/Eldritchknight10/wizard2 or a fighter2/wizard4/runesmith4/EK10, BAB 16, CL 17. Runecasting lets you cast in full armor so you can dump dex to 12 without worries.
Spellbinded 12-20-04, 11:29 PM	This is my Enlightened Fist write up. Fey'ri (pick suggestion 1/day to have the one 3rd level arcane spell for AT) One question: since when do Spell-Like abilities count for spellcasting? As far as I'm aware they don't...unless it's some sort of crazy Complete Arcane rule I'm not remembering currently.
paradoxmage 12-20-04, 11:45 PM	Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). This is what is writen on spell-like abilities. Where does it say spell-like abilities are not spells? I have seen no where that spell-like abilities cannot qualify you for a PrC. I have seen no where that racial abilities (like say natural 2d6 sneak) cant qualify you.
ninjarabbit 12-25-04, 09:54 AM	Here's a 2 PrC EF build: monk2/swashbuckler3/wizard4/EF10/Dragonslayer1, BAB 14, CL 13, effectively a 12th level monk, good damage output potential Dragonslayer is there just for the +1 to BAB and CL and it's not too out of your way to qualify for since you should have ranks in tumble and have the dodge feat tree so iron will is the only thing you have too go out of your way for. Take the kung fu genius feat to reduce MAD
Xeraph 12-25-04, 10:35 AM	Excuse my noobness, but what the heck is this MAD you all talking about? :thinks:
Mommy was an Orc 12-25-04, 11:17 AM	Multiple Attribute Dependency Just certain builds mean you need to have very good stats in 3-5 stats, which is a problem in low point buy games... Excuse my noobness, but what the heck is this MAD you all talking about? :thinks:
Xeraph 12-25-04, 12:13 PM	BAD MAD! :looloo:
Lago AM3P 12-25-04, 03:59 PM	Or, you could forget all of that and check this **** out. Take 7 wizard levels, emphasizing intelligence and making sure that your charisma doesn't suck. At first, you will not resemble a primary fighter at all but it's just as well. Your character will not suck, not by a long shot, as levels 1-7 are the levels where wizards are totally dominating (they lose it out to clerics and druids after that, and then become king pimps again at level 15). Anyway. Somewhere along the line, you will want to take the feat arcane disciple: hero, war, or competition. This will make you sweet, as you will be able to cast divine power. Take 2 levels of Sacred Exorcist; this will give you the duece on BAB and allow you to pick up the feat arcane strike and give you turning attempts. And be sure to pick up two levels of Red Wizard of Thay (will require a druid in the party or for you to be human). Okay. So your character should look something like this: Wizard 5 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Loremaster 2 / Red Wizard 2. Now, encounter some creature that has level loss. Lose four levels (all of them wizard), then restore the levels. According to the FAQ, when you lose levels, you lose them from your highest level first, then it's random. But your character should look like this: Wizard 1 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Loremaster 2 / Red Wizard 2. Now gain the levels again (the restoration line of spells do not restore levels, only experience), and then your character should look like this: Wizard 1 / Loremaster 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Red Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 2. Your feat progression should look like this: Level 1: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell Level 3: Skill Focus: Some Crap (Replaced immediately with Tattoo Focus when you take the Loremaster level) Level 6: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell Level 9: Iron Will Level 12: Arcane Strike Let's pause for a minute. What are the benefits? You will have circle magic (giving you sky-high DCs and caster levels), a fighter's BAB, access to the polymorph line of spells, arcane strike, full spell-casting, and the ability to take 8 more levels of whatever you want. I recommend the rest as Incantatrix levels. Later on, due to the Incantatrix's abilities, you'll be able to persist every spell you care about at an extremely high caster level. With the cleric archer being slowly nerfed, this is the wave of the future, folx.