Building a non-druid grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a non-druid grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Santherus
12-11-05, 03:16 PM I'm currently looking to build a non-druid grappler, but am struggling with two things:

1) Coping with "Freedom of movement" - THE nightmarish anti-grapple ability.
2) Getting a decent build together.

I thought a human Brb1/Fighter 6/Runsecarred Beserker 10/X 3 is a reasonable start.

Required Feats are:
Iron Will
Survivor
Owlbear Beserker (any lodge feat, but this has grapple synergies)

Jotenbrud will be more-or-less a must. I may also toss in some extra rages at some point.

I'm also tossing in IUS, Earth's embrace, and am toying with mage slayer and practiced caster for anti-magery whilst keeping RSB caster levels intact.

To cope with that pesky Freedom of Movement, the Anti Magic shell is the best counter - although it kicks in far too late at L16 - is there some effective earlier tactic for a grappler to deal with this?

As far as the build goes, there MUST be something better than fighter 6; I'm also trying to avoid psychic warrior, as will be concentrating on Antimagic fields at higher levels.

This will be a 32 point buy for 3.5, LA+0 races, all WOTC books, no 3rd party or Dragon. Playable from level 1 to level 20.

Note that I've discounted bear warrior as I'm hoping to get decent damage from armour spikes enchanted up - possibly with some strength draining effect (is there anything better than the Poison Spike ability from BOVD?). AFAIK there's no way to keep the spikes for damage whilst in bear form.

Finally: Reaping Mauler need not apply, due to it losing it's class abilities when polymorphed to large or greater sizes - this will often be the case when not grappling.

I await your pleasure...
X-Codes
12-11-05, 05:36 PM Forget Earth's Embrace and Mage Slayer, and don't forget Improved Grapple (duh!).

Jotunbrund requires Human, so your race is already picked for you.

Freedom of Movement isn't that bad. Unless the caster had prep time, he likely won't have it up. Plus, it has both a Somatic and Material component so it will be exceedingly hard to use after the fact.

Wizards won't likely prepare this until later levels. 4th is a big level for them, containing spells like Charm Monster, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Orbs, Stoneskin and popular Metamagic spells (Extended Haste, Empowered Scorching Ray). Sorcerers likely won't know it for the same reasons. Your only problem is Clerics who hit a lousy spell selection for this level, they will likely start preparing it at 8th level (Divine Power, Assay Spell Resistance, and Restoration are honestly the only notables here). As for Druids, they get Flamestrike and Arc Lightning along with some good assistance spells. Again, I don't see a Druid preparing this that often. Rangers get this spell at about the same time as you get Anti-Magic field, so no sweat there.

Theres a Ring of Freedom, but thats a decently expensive magic item. If you find yourself unable to grapple someone, then just swing at them with a big sword or something.

As for the build, Barbarian 5/Fighter 2 would likely be a better start. You get another Rage with this. Feats aren't needed as much in this build as in others.
Naramyth
12-11-05, 06:00 PM Non-Druid Grappler? Psychic Warrior. With Expansion, Iron Grip, Animal Affiny, Metamorphisis, Form of Doom, etc. you can grapple dragons with out breaking a sweat. If they break out Freedom of Movement, Claws of the Beast+Vampiric Claws can equal the win, which, can also help in grapple by the way.
PhaedrusXY
12-11-05, 06:16 PM Freedom of Movement isn't that bad. Unless the caster had prep time, he likely won't have it up. Plus, it has both a Somatic and Material component so it will be exceedingly hard to use after the fact.Firstly, we're talking about a PC facing NPCs here. So if the DM wants the NPC to have it, they will. Secondly, Freedom of Movement lasts 10 minutes per level. At the mid and upper levels, that is a long damn time, especially if it's Extended. So it isn't unbelievable at all that a caster would have it up if they thought there was even a remote chance they might get attacked. I can guarandamntee you that my important NPC casters always have it.

Runescarred Berzerker is probably your best option. If the idea isn't too crazy to you, you might consider using the Half-Orc Paragon's rage ability to qualify for it, instead of barbarian levels. This allows you to take a couple of monk levels (without worrying about alignment conflicts), which gives you a big head start as far as grappling ability. Take a look at the Half-Orc Paragon Monk in my sig. Also look at the "Mage Killer" thread there. I think I posted a grappler that uses Monk, Runescarred Berzerker, Shou Disciple and Antimagic Field in there (Edit: here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6150094&postcount=20) is a direct link to that build).
Santherus
12-12-05, 01:37 AM Again - the PW is problematic for the FOM reason; If I'm going to be specialised in grappling, I dont want to be a paper tiger: the reason that I find archery problematic at higher levels is the prevalance of wind walls - FOM isn't as big a problem, being L4 but it does kill grappling stone dead in the same way unless catered for.

If you've a build which ('equals the win') even with FOM, please post it as I'd be interested to see it.

Phaedrus XY:
In your build,

12 RSB2: Mage Slayer
15 RSB5: Pierce Magical Protections
18 RSB8: Pierce Magical Concealment

Leaves the RSB with a final caster level of -2 for its runescars. :mymy:

Also - the RSB build you link to sig gives antimagic field at L19 - I'm already tearing my hair out with getting it only at L16 in the current build.

Half orc paragon is definitely a thought - but that Jotunbrud size bonus is mighty hard to give up...

Is there any way to reliably counter freedom of movement at lower levels whilst maintaining a decent grapple? Other thoughts?
Santherus
12-13-05, 02:31 AM So far we have:

1) Runescarred Beserker and Antimagic as a tactic - which kicks in at its best at L16 at the earliest, unfortunately. Possibly using half orc paragon to qualify
2) Psychic Warrior build (which is yet to be posted).

Any offers or a psychic warrior build breakdown would be handy; I'll try and rustle a stab at a PsyW build myself later in the day.
Santherus
12-19-05, 09:36 AM How about this? :

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to fit in Stunning fist and chokehold:

Elan (Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10)

BAB Level Class Max PP Power
Power
1 Psy 1 0 Improved Grapple Improved Unarmed Strike 1 0 Grip of Iron
2 Psy 2 1 Earth's Embrace 1 1 Claws of the Beast
3 Psy 3 2 Track 1 3 Expansion
4 Psy 4 3 2 5 Hustle
5 Psy 5 3 Expanded:Astral C 2 7 Psionic Lion's Charge
6 Psy 6 4 Imp nat attack(claw) 2 11 Body Adjustment
7 Psy 7 5 3 15 Claws of the Vampire
8 Psy 8 6 Extend Power 3 19 Evade Burst
9 IS1 7 Exp: Energy Missile Fav Enemy(ill+2) ill sense
10 IS2 8 Brain nausea 3 23 Concealing Amorpha, Greater
11 IS3 9 Lucid Buffer 4 27 Dimension Door, Psionic
12 IS4 10 Rapidstrike Fav Enemy(ill+4) 4 35 Steadfast Perception
13 IS5 11 4 43 Energy Adaption
14 IS6 12 Cerebral Blind 5 51 4* Freedom of Movement, Psionic
15 IS7 13 Exp: Metamorphosis Fav Enemy(ill+6) 5 59 Oak Body
16 IS8 14 Breach Power Res 5 67 Adapt Body
17 IS9 15 Cerebral Immunity 6 79 Form of Doom
18 IS10 16 Improved Rapidstrike Blast Feedback, ill+8 6 91 Inconstant Location
19 Psy 9 16 6 103 Dispelling Buffer
20 Psy 10 17 6 115 Breath of the Black Dragon
ranagrande
12-19-05, 11:10 AM I recently started a grappler in Living Greyhawk. It isn't nearly as optimized as all the other builds and not even as powerful as it could be since I'll have a lot of stuff in it for flavor, but it works and it will be fun to play.

I'm going with a half-orc Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Outcast Champion 5/Reaping Mauler 4/Pious Templar

And for something possibly more helpful for the original question, I think Bear Warrior has great potential for a grappler build.
PhaedrusXY
12-19-05, 11:20 AM Phaedrus XY:
In your build,

12 RSB2: Mage Slayer
15 RSB5: Pierce Magical Protections
18 RSB8: Pierce Magical Concealment

Leaves the RSB with a final caster level of -2 for its runescars. :mymy: :embarrass I didn't actually use that build (obviously). The Pierce Magical X feats could be left off entirely since you're going to be relying on an Antimagic Field anyway, and throw in Practiced Spellcaster to counter the -4 from Mage Slayer.Also - the RSB build you link to sig gives antimagic field at L19 - I'm already tearing my hair out with getting it only at L16 in the current build.There is nothing saying you have to take it all in the exact order that I presented it in. You could start taking levels of Runescarred Berzerker before you finish the Shou Disciple levels. You'd probably need to swap the feats around a bit, though.
solbergb
12-19-05, 12:54 PM I would say that the main thing you have to realize when playing a grappler in D&D is that it can't be the only arrow in your quiver, at least not after level 6.

Grapple is an exceedingly useful ability, even in higher levels (because contrary to what some say, not EVERY enemy is somebody with freedom of movement, a grapple contingency or too big/strong to grapple, and even if the enemy contains such a person, there still might be somebody ELSE in their party to grapple).

But it can't be your ONLY ability.

Also...grappling is a very slow way to kill somebody. Usually what you want is a party that can either easily cope with the rest of the enemy if you can remove one, or who can quickly kill whatever you've grabbed (the latter is preferable). If everyone else in the party is a sub-level-12 archer or spellcaster with no touch spells/magic missile, you will find that you get no help killing whatever you've grabbed and you'll have to take fewer risks, because if you roll the dice enough times, the d20s will free your victim unless you have a truly massive grapple advantage.

(who plays a level 11 monk grappler, with str similar to a non-raging barbarian and no arcane support most of the time. I still find some opponents to grapple nearly every adventure, and probably 2 out of every 3 combats. I probably grapple only half the combats though, because I'm getting better at my other tricks, and sometimes they're better).
matbot
12-19-05, 07:34 PM Three words: Bear Warrior...!
Santherus
12-22-05, 03:12 AM Those lovely strength-poisoning armour spikes aren't available in bear warrior form - which is available only when raging anyway: Optimal is Either Anti Magic field and RSB or PsyW. I find BW kind of 'meh'.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Santherus 12-11-05, 03:16 PM	I'm currently looking to build a non-druid grappler, but am struggling with two things: 1) Coping with "Freedom of movement" - THE nightmarish anti-grapple ability. 2) Getting a decent build together. I thought a human Brb1/Fighter 6/Runsecarred Beserker 10/X 3 is a reasonable start. Required Feats are: Iron Will Survivor Owlbear Beserker (any lodge feat, but this has grapple synergies) Jotenbrud will be more-or-less a must. I may also toss in some extra rages at some point. I'm also tossing in IUS, Earth's embrace, and am toying with mage slayer and practiced caster for anti-magery whilst keeping RSB caster levels intact. To cope with that pesky Freedom of Movement, the Anti Magic shell is the best counter - although it kicks in far too late at L16 - is there some effective earlier tactic for a grappler to deal with this? As far as the build goes, there MUST be something better than fighter 6; I'm also trying to avoid psychic warrior, as will be concentrating on Antimagic fields at higher levels. This will be a 32 point buy for 3.5, LA+0 races, all WOTC books, no 3rd party or Dragon. Playable from level 1 to level 20. Note that I've discounted bear warrior as I'm hoping to get decent damage from armour spikes enchanted up - possibly with some strength draining effect (is there anything better than the Poison Spike ability from BOVD?). AFAIK there's no way to keep the spikes for damage whilst in bear form. Finally: Reaping Mauler need not apply, due to it losing it's class abilities when polymorphed to large or greater sizes - this will often be the case when not grappling. I await your pleasure...
X-Codes 12-11-05, 05:36 PM	Forget Earth's Embrace and Mage Slayer, and don't forget Improved Grapple (duh!). Jotunbrund requires Human, so your race is already picked for you. Freedom of Movement isn't that bad. Unless the caster had prep time, he likely won't have it up. Plus, it has both a Somatic and Material component so it will be exceedingly hard to use after the fact. Wizards won't likely prepare this until later levels. 4th is a big level for them, containing spells like Charm Monster, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Orbs, Stoneskin and popular Metamagic spells (Extended Haste, Empowered Scorching Ray). Sorcerers likely won't know it for the same reasons. Your only problem is Clerics who hit a lousy spell selection for this level, they will likely start preparing it at 8th level (Divine Power, Assay Spell Resistance, and Restoration are honestly the only notables here). As for Druids, they get Flamestrike and Arc Lightning along with some good assistance spells. Again, I don't see a Druid preparing this that often. Rangers get this spell at about the same time as you get Anti-Magic field, so no sweat there. Theres a Ring of Freedom, but thats a decently expensive magic item. If you find yourself unable to grapple someone, then just swing at them with a big sword or something. As for the build, Barbarian 5/Fighter 2 would likely be a better start. You get another Rage with this. Feats aren't needed as much in this build as in others.
Naramyth 12-11-05, 06:00 PM	Non-Druid Grappler? Psychic Warrior. With Expansion, Iron Grip, Animal Affiny, Metamorphisis, Form of Doom, etc. you can grapple dragons with out breaking a sweat. If they break out Freedom of Movement, Claws of the Beast+Vampiric Claws can equal the win, which, can also help in grapple by the way.
PhaedrusXY 12-11-05, 06:16 PM	Freedom of Movement isn't that bad. Unless the caster had prep time, he likely won't have it up. Plus, it has both a Somatic and Material component so it will be exceedingly hard to use after the fact.Firstly, we're talking about a PC facing NPCs here. So if the DM wants the NPC to have it, they will. Secondly, Freedom of Movement lasts 10 minutes per level. At the mid and upper levels, that is a long damn time, especially if it's Extended. So it isn't unbelievable at all that a caster would have it up if they thought there was even a remote chance they might get attacked. I can guarandamntee you that my important NPC casters always have it. Runescarred Berzerker is probably your best option. If the idea isn't too crazy to you, you might consider using the Half-Orc Paragon's rage ability to qualify for it, instead of barbarian levels. This allows you to take a couple of monk levels (without worrying about alignment conflicts), which gives you a big head start as far as grappling ability. Take a look at the Half-Orc Paragon Monk in my sig. Also look at the "Mage Killer" thread there. I think I posted a grappler that uses Monk, Runescarred Berzerker, Shou Disciple and Antimagic Field in there (Edit: here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6150094&postcount=20) is a direct link to that build).
Santherus 12-12-05, 01:37 AM	Again - the PW is problematic for the FOM reason; If I'm going to be specialised in grappling, I dont want to be a paper tiger: the reason that I find archery problematic at higher levels is the prevalance of wind walls - FOM isn't as big a problem, being L4 but it does kill grappling stone dead in the same way unless catered for. If you've a build which ('equals the win') even with FOM, please post it as I'd be interested to see it. Phaedrus XY: In your build, 12 RSB2: Mage Slayer 15 RSB5: Pierce Magical Protections 18 RSB8: Pierce Magical Concealment Leaves the RSB with a final caster level of -2 for its runescars. :mymy: Also - the RSB build you link to sig gives antimagic field at L19 - I'm already tearing my hair out with getting it only at L16 in the current build. Half orc paragon is definitely a thought - but that Jotunbrud size bonus is mighty hard to give up... Is there any way to reliably counter freedom of movement at lower levels whilst maintaining a decent grapple? Other thoughts?
Santherus 12-13-05, 02:31 AM	So far we have: 1) Runescarred Beserker and Antimagic as a tactic - which kicks in at its best at L16 at the earliest, unfortunately. Possibly using half orc paragon to qualify 2) Psychic Warrior build (which is yet to be posted). Any offers or a psychic warrior build breakdown would be handy; I'll try and rustle a stab at a PsyW build myself later in the day.
Santherus 12-19-05, 09:36 AM	How about this? : Unfortunately, I wasn't able to fit in Stunning fist and chokehold: Elan (Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10) BAB Level Class Max PP Power Power 1 Psy 1 0 Improved Grapple Improved Unarmed Strike 1 0 Grip of Iron 2 Psy 2 1 Earth's Embrace 1 1 Claws of the Beast 3 Psy 3 2 Track 1 3 Expansion 4 Psy 4 3 2 5 Hustle 5 Psy 5 3 Expanded:Astral C 2 7 Psionic Lion's Charge 6 Psy 6 4 Imp nat attack(claw) 2 11 Body Adjustment 7 Psy 7 5 3 15 Claws of the Vampire 8 Psy 8 6 Extend Power 3 19 Evade Burst 9 IS1 7 Exp: Energy Missile Fav Enemy(ill+2) ill sense 10 IS2 8 Brain nausea 3 23 Concealing Amorpha, Greater 11 IS3 9 Lucid Buffer 4 27 Dimension Door, Psionic 12 IS4 10 Rapidstrike Fav Enemy(ill+4) 4 35 Steadfast Perception 13 IS5 11 4 43 Energy Adaption 14 IS6 12 Cerebral Blind 5 51 4* Freedom of Movement, Psionic 15 IS7 13 Exp: Metamorphosis Fav Enemy(ill+6) 5 59 Oak Body 16 IS8 14 Breach Power Res 5 67 Adapt Body 17 IS9 15 Cerebral Immunity 6 79 Form of Doom 18 IS10 16 Improved Rapidstrike Blast Feedback, ill+8 6 91 Inconstant Location 19 Psy 9 16 6 103 Dispelling Buffer 20 Psy 10 17 6 115 Breath of the Black Dragon
ranagrande 12-19-05, 11:10 AM	I recently started a grappler in Living Greyhawk. It isn't nearly as optimized as all the other builds and not even as powerful as it could be since I'll have a lot of stuff in it for flavor, but it works and it will be fun to play. I'm going with a half-orc Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Outcast Champion 5/Reaping Mauler 4/Pious Templar And for something possibly more helpful for the original question, I think Bear Warrior has great potential for a grappler build.
PhaedrusXY 12-19-05, 11:20 AM	Phaedrus XY: In your build, 12 RSB2: Mage Slayer 15 RSB5: Pierce Magical Protections 18 RSB8: Pierce Magical Concealment Leaves the RSB with a final caster level of -2 for its runescars. :mymy: :embarrass I didn't actually use that build (obviously). The Pierce Magical X feats could be left off entirely since you're going to be relying on an Antimagic Field anyway, and throw in Practiced Spellcaster to counter the -4 from Mage Slayer.Also - the RSB build you link to sig gives antimagic field at L19 - I'm already tearing my hair out with getting it only at L16 in the current build.There is nothing saying you have to take it all in the exact order that I presented it in. You could start taking levels of Runescarred Berzerker before you finish the Shou Disciple levels. You'd probably need to swap the feats around a bit, though.
solbergb 12-19-05, 12:54 PM	I would say that the main thing you have to realize when playing a grappler in D&D is that it can't be the only arrow in your quiver, at least not after level 6. Grapple is an exceedingly useful ability, even in higher levels (because contrary to what some say, not EVERY enemy is somebody with freedom of movement, a grapple contingency or too big/strong to grapple, and even if the enemy contains such a person, there still might be somebody ELSE in their party to grapple). But it can't be your ONLY ability. Also...grappling is a very slow way to kill somebody. Usually what you want is a party that can either easily cope with the rest of the enemy if you can remove one, or who can quickly kill whatever you've grabbed (the latter is preferable). If everyone else in the party is a sub-level-12 archer or spellcaster with no touch spells/magic missile, you will find that you get no help killing whatever you've grabbed and you'll have to take fewer risks, because if you roll the dice enough times, the d20s will free your victim unless you have a truly massive grapple advantage. (who plays a level 11 monk grappler, with str similar to a non-raging barbarian and no arcane support most of the time. I still find some opponents to grapple nearly every adventure, and probably 2 out of every 3 combats. I probably grapple only half the combats though, because I'm getting better at my other tricks, and sometimes they're better).
matbot 12-19-05, 07:34 PM	Three words: Bear Warrior...!
Santherus 12-22-05, 03:12 AM	Those lovely strength-poisoning armour spikes aren't available in bear warrior form - which is available only when raging anyway: Optimal is Either Anti Magic field and RSB or PsyW. I find BW kind of 'meh'.