Building a vampire lich [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a vampire lich [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
olodrin
06-28-06, 04:06 PM All,

While I assume that this isn't a particularly original mix of templates, I'm having some trouble determining what happens when I apply the Lich template to a Vampire.

For instance, the Vampire has a turn resistance of +4, as does the Lich. Do these stack? More importantly, when the Vampire gains the Lich template, does the Lich inherent all of the vampire weaknesses?

Thanks,

Olodrin
Kresalak
06-28-06, 04:13 PM You can't apply both templates, since neither can be applied to undead. You have to pick one.
olodrin
06-28-06, 05:28 PM Thanks!
Tramp4life
06-28-06, 09:59 PM Couldn't you just make the vamp a wizard? He'd have to go epic because of the LA, but that's OK...
runestar
06-29-06, 12:19 AM What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P
EldonG
06-29-06, 12:23 AM What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P
Ummm...wow...now that's a good one...and he could've even become a vampire during his career...hmmm...man...I suppose you'd just either have to figure that one out, or say 'no'. Either one takes a little houseruling...
moomooacow
06-29-06, 01:40 AM What if the Lich polymorphed himself into an attractive human or something, got bitten by a vamp, and therefore acquired the template that way?
Surreal
06-29-06, 01:47 AM What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P
I was about to say the same thing, except with Walker in the Waste. I think that route would be a little faster than Dread Necromancer.
iamwardicus
06-29-06, 12:19 PM as far as I know these two templates cannot be added onto each other becuase both require the origional creature to be Alive in the process of making them undead. house rules obviously override this - but in all sense, you cannot have them both at the same time. a vampire requires the blood of the living to sustain itself. a lich gets his power from a link to the negative energy plane. contradiction there. a vampire gets his undead status from a bite - where the living creature becomes undead. a lich gets his power from a ritual involving a phylactery (or more) a lot of magic, and a poison made up of the most deadly toxins in the realm - but it is living in the first place. just with that - if i were a DM i would not allow both templates to apply at the same time. (other combinations are fine, such as 1/2 dragon / vamp or something, but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...)
EldonG
06-29-06, 02:30 PM as far as I know these two templates cannot be added onto each other becuase both require the origional creature to be Alive in the process of making them undead. house rules obviously override this - but in all sense, you cannot have them both at the same time. a vampire requires the blood of the living to sustain itself. a lich gets his power from a link to the negative energy plane. contradiction there. a vampire gets his undead status from a bite - where the living creature becomes undead. a lich gets his power from a ritual involving a phylactery (or more) a lot of magic, and a poison made up of the most deadly toxins in the realm - but it is living in the first place. just with that - if i were a DM i would not allow both templates to apply at the same time. (other combinations are fine, such as 1/2 dragon / vamp or something, but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...)
So what do you do about the 20th level Dread Necro who's been made into a vampire?
Mind you, I'm satisfied with 'it ain't happenin'', but that's the wierd one, for now. I doubt I'd let it happen.
ThePo
06-29-06, 02:38 PM ALL PHEAR THE VLICH!

LOL. Ok. Done.

As far as I can see it the vampire would maybe be able to go through the magical rituals if he was a powerful enough caster. Perhaps it would be like a super vampire. Or maybe thats how a Vampire Lord can be made. That would be a neat house rule.

But yeah, it's technically not possible but with a little house rule flavor I think it could make a bad guy pretty neat that most players would do a double take on.

"You must destroy the vampire lich!"
"Right....hold the phone, a what!?"
aod318
06-29-06, 02:46 PM Why can’t a Vampire become a Lich? A Human becoming a Vampire becomes an Undead (Augmented Humanoid). The Lich template specifically says; can be added to any humanoid creature… A Vampire is a Humanoid and therefore, can also become a Lich. Nothing in the Lich template says anything about being alive.
nunchuckgun
06-29-06, 02:56 PM I can see a Vampire ungoing a magical ritual to become lich-like, but since it is ALREADY UNDEAD, it wouldn't be treated the same as a Lich. I'd have to assume that becoming a Vampire after already being a Lich would be out of the question, because the vampire who bites you would have to drain blood, something a lich most definetly doesn't have. A vampire with a phylactery + some cool casting power would be the nearest I can imagine getting to this template. :confused:
runestar
06-30-06, 01:32 AM All fear the vampire lord demilich... :D
Malakai_Demonos
06-30-06, 02:17 AM I actually thought of this a while ago. What if a wanna-be lich was bitten by a vampire and turned during the ritual to become a lich? or What if a man who was slowly succumbing to vampirism (yes I know that in DnD vampirism isn't a disease, but in many tales it is) decided to try to turn himself into a lich instead? I also think that it would be cool to make a Vampire Lich template. It would have to be a blending of the two and it would recieve different things than either base template, and wouldn't get everything that both templates get.
Surreal
06-30-06, 02:25 AM I shudder to think what the resulting LA would be...
EldonG
06-30-06, 02:36 AM I shudder to think what the resulting LA would be...
I'd guess about +6...maybe only +5...so much overlaps, but the bad stuff doesn't.
runestar
06-30-06, 03:03 AM After the PCs stake the vampire in the heart, they learn that they now must find its phylactery... :D

Still better than aumvor... :P
Craith
06-30-06, 03:20 AM ... but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...)

That's not possible, since the vampire template can't be applied to outsiders, and shade requires humanoid as a base creature (if my memory serves correct, no books at work)
Surreal
06-30-06, 11:25 AM I'd guess about +6...maybe only +5...so much overlaps, but the bad stuff doesn't.
Er... doesn't the vampire template itself start at +8? Stacking lich on top of that would make it +10 at least.
runestar
06-30-06, 01:53 PM Yeah, but some of the benefits, such as undead traits, overlap, so that could arguably account for a reduction of the total LA.
Surreal
06-30-06, 02:21 PM Which is why I said +10 instead of +12 (lich is +4 I believe...). Kind of an ad hoc estimation anyways.
EldonG
06-30-06, 02:36 PM I was thinking +4...but vampire is +5...so...6 to 7ish?
aod318
06-30-06, 02:43 PM I was thinking +4...but vampire is +5...so...6 to 7ish?
What source lists Vampire as +5? Monster Manual lists them as +8. Am I wrong or does the Core III override all other sources?
Mystic Mouse
06-30-06, 03:01 PM Why can’t a Vampire become a Lich? A Human becoming a Vampire becomes an Undead (Augmented Humanoid). The Lich template specifically says; can be added to any humanoid creature… A Vampire is a Humanoid and therefore, can also become a Lich. Nothing in the Lich template says anything about being alive.

Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition).

This also means no Vampie Dire Bears.
EldonG
06-30-06, 03:06 PM What source lists Vampire as +5? Monster Manual lists them as +8. Am I wrong or does the Core III override all other sources?
Huh? I have the MM open and I'm looking right at a +5...
Edit: It's the ELITE that's +8! I get it, now!
EldonG
06-30-06, 03:09 PM Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition).

This also means no Vampie Dire Bears.
No vampire dire bears? I LOVE my vampire dire bears!

(besides...I have Libris Mortis...bwahahahaha...)
aod318
06-30-06, 03:17 PM Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition).

This also means no Vampie Dire Bears.
Can you tell me the source of this ruleing? I have a necropolitian who is thinking about Lich.
And that’s funny. Under the sample Vampire, Level Adj is +5, the sample Elite Vampire is listed as +8 and under Creating a Vampire, Level Adj is +8. Not that WotC ever makes mistakes in their books. With the whole, turn to dust in sunlight thing, I think +5 is more then enough. So, Vampire and then Vampire Lord is a total of +8. Still rough, but playable.
No Dire Bear Vampires!?!
Stalwartmonkey
06-30-06, 04:48 PM an intelligent vampire dire bear lich?

an intelligent vampire feral dire bear lich?

ooh, stacking templates is fun.

no! a half-fiendish multi-headed (1 extra) vampire feral anthropomorphic whale lich with a major red dragon bloodline.

Whatever happened to just playing a human, dwarf, elf or half-elf?
EldonG
06-30-06, 04:52 PM an intelligent vampire dire bear lich?

an intelligent vampire feral dire bear lich?

ooh, stacking templates is fun.

no! a half-fiendish multi-headed (1 extra) vampire feral anthropomorphic whale lich with a major red dragon bloodline.

Whatever happened to just playing a human, dwarf, elf or half-elf?
Playing? I play a human...but I also DM... :eek: :D :rolleyes: :cool:

Edit: Egads! I just realized, in a total of 6 characters I've played more than once since 3.0 came out, they've been human, human, human, human, human, and human. I need to play something *exotic*...like...an elf? :confused:
Mystic Mouse
07-01-06, 11:17 AM Can you tell me the source of this ruleing? I have a necropolitian who is thinking about Lich.
And that’s funny. Under the sample Vampire, Level Adj is +5, the sample Elite Vampire is listed as +8 and under Creating a Vampire, Level Adj is +8. Not that WotC ever makes mistakes in their books. With the whole, turn to dust in sunlight thing, I think +5 is more then enough. So, Vampire and then Vampire Lord is a total of +8. Still rough, but playable.
No Dire Bear Vampires!?!

What ruling? This is just the basics of applying a template. It say clearly in the SRD:

READING A TEMPLATE
A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”
Size and Type: Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.
If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

So becoming Undead, makes you type Undead (Augmented Humanoid), and before we go into "but it says any Humaoid", that refrences your Humanoid type, reguardless of subtype; for example if you are a:

Human you are Humanoid (Human)
Dwarf you are Humanoid (Dwarf)
Hobgoblin you are Humanoid (Goblinoid)

All these creatures are considered to be "any" kind Humanoid.

Any creature with the Undead (any), is considered to be "any" kind of Undead.

So an Undead (Augmented Humanoid) has the type and traits of an Undead, and the features of a humanoid (...usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.), but they lose the benefit of being a Humanoid type (including gaining templates that only humanoids can get), and their traits are altered by any "new" traits that have been replaced by the undead template.

It even goes on to warn people applying templates to "pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olodrin 06-28-06, 04:06 PM	All, While I assume that this isn't a particularly original mix of templates, I'm having some trouble determining what happens when I apply the Lich template to a Vampire. For instance, the Vampire has a turn resistance of +4, as does the Lich. Do these stack? More importantly, when the Vampire gains the Lich template, does the Lich inherent all of the vampire weaknesses? Thanks, Olodrin
Kresalak 06-28-06, 04:13 PM	You can't apply both templates, since neither can be applied to undead. You have to pick one.
olodrin 06-28-06, 05:28 PM	Thanks!
Tramp4life 06-28-06, 09:59 PM	Couldn't you just make the vamp a wizard? He'd have to go epic because of the LA, but that's OK...
runestar 06-29-06, 12:19 AM	What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P
EldonG 06-29-06, 12:23 AM	What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P Ummm...wow...now that's a good one...and he could've even become a vampire during his career...hmmm...man...I suppose you'd just either have to figure that one out, or say 'no'. Either one takes a little houseruling...
moomooacow 06-29-06, 01:40 AM	What if the Lich polymorphed himself into an attractive human or something, got bitten by a vamp, and therefore acquired the template that way?
Surreal 06-29-06, 01:47 AM	What if you applied the vampire template to a dread necro19 about to take his 20th lv? Would the lich template be added on top of the vamp template? :P I was about to say the same thing, except with Walker in the Waste. I think that route would be a little faster than Dread Necromancer.
iamwardicus 06-29-06, 12:19 PM	as far as I know these two templates cannot be added onto each other becuase both require the origional creature to be Alive in the process of making them undead. house rules obviously override this - but in all sense, you cannot have them both at the same time. a vampire requires the blood of the living to sustain itself. a lich gets his power from a link to the negative energy plane. contradiction there. a vampire gets his undead status from a bite - where the living creature becomes undead. a lich gets his power from a ritual involving a phylactery (or more) a lot of magic, and a poison made up of the most deadly toxins in the realm - but it is living in the first place. just with that - if i were a DM i would not allow both templates to apply at the same time. (other combinations are fine, such as 1/2 dragon / vamp or something, but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...)
EldonG 06-29-06, 02:30 PM	as far as I know these two templates cannot be added onto each other becuase both require the origional creature to be Alive in the process of making them undead. house rules obviously override this - but in all sense, you cannot have them both at the same time. a vampire requires the blood of the living to sustain itself. a lich gets his power from a link to the negative energy plane. contradiction there. a vampire gets his undead status from a bite - where the living creature becomes undead. a lich gets his power from a ritual involving a phylactery (or more) a lot of magic, and a poison made up of the most deadly toxins in the realm - but it is living in the first place. just with that - if i were a DM i would not allow both templates to apply at the same time. (other combinations are fine, such as 1/2 dragon / vamp or something, but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...) So what do you do about the 20th level Dread Necro who's been made into a vampire? Mind you, I'm satisfied with 'it ain't happenin'', but that's the wierd one, for now. I doubt I'd let it happen.
ThePo 06-29-06, 02:38 PM	ALL PHEAR THE VLICH! LOL. Ok. Done. As far as I can see it the vampire would maybe be able to go through the magical rituals if he was a powerful enough caster. Perhaps it would be like a super vampire. Or maybe thats how a Vampire Lord can be made. That would be a neat house rule. But yeah, it's technically not possible but with a little house rule flavor I think it could make a bad guy pretty neat that most players would do a double take on. "You must destroy the vampire lich!" "Right....hold the phone, a what!?"
aod318 06-29-06, 02:46 PM	Why can’t a Vampire become a Lich? A Human becoming a Vampire becomes an Undead (Augmented Humanoid). The Lich template specifically says; can be added to any humanoid creature… A Vampire is a Humanoid and therefore, can also become a Lich. Nothing in the Lich template says anything about being alive.
nunchuckgun 06-29-06, 02:56 PM	I can see a Vampire ungoing a magical ritual to become lich-like, but since it is ALREADY UNDEAD, it wouldn't be treated the same as a Lich. I'd have to assume that becoming a Vampire after already being a Lich would be out of the question, because the vampire who bites you would have to drain blood, something a lich most definetly doesn't have. A vampire with a phylactery + some cool casting power would be the nearest I can imagine getting to this template. :confused:
runestar 06-30-06, 01:32 AM	All fear the vampire lord demilich... :D
Malakai_Demonos 06-30-06, 02:17 AM	I actually thought of this a while ago. What if a wanna-be lich was bitten by a vampire and turned during the ritual to become a lich? or What if a man who was slowly succumbing to vampirism (yes I know that in DnD vampirism isn't a disease, but in many tales it is) decided to try to turn himself into a lich instead? I also think that it would be cool to make a Vampire Lich template. It would have to be a blending of the two and it would recieve different things than either base template, and wouldn't get everything that both templates get.
Surreal 06-30-06, 02:25 AM	I shudder to think what the resulting LA would be...
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:36 AM	I shudder to think what the resulting LA would be... I'd guess about +6...maybe only +5...so much overlaps, but the bad stuff doesn't.
runestar 06-30-06, 03:03 AM	After the PCs stake the vampire in the heart, they learn that they now must find its phylactery... :D Still better than aumvor... :P
Craith 06-30-06, 03:20 AM	... but i would also be picky if they wanted somethign like Shade/Vampire - that'd be something i would research and wonder about...) That's not possible, since the vampire template can't be applied to outsiders, and shade requires humanoid as a base creature (if my memory serves correct, no books at work)
Surreal 06-30-06, 11:25 AM	I'd guess about +6...maybe only +5...so much overlaps, but the bad stuff doesn't. Er... doesn't the vampire template itself start at +8? Stacking lich on top of that would make it +10 at least.
runestar 06-30-06, 01:53 PM	Yeah, but some of the benefits, such as undead traits, overlap, so that could arguably account for a reduction of the total LA.
Surreal 06-30-06, 02:21 PM	Which is why I said +10 instead of +12 (lich is +4 I believe...). Kind of an ad hoc estimation anyways.
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:36 PM	I was thinking +4...but vampire is +5...so...6 to 7ish?
aod318 06-30-06, 02:43 PM	I was thinking +4...but vampire is +5...so...6 to 7ish? What source lists Vampire as +5? Monster Manual lists them as +8. Am I wrong or does the Core III override all other sources?
Mystic Mouse 06-30-06, 03:01 PM	Why can’t a Vampire become a Lich? A Human becoming a Vampire becomes an Undead (Augmented Humanoid). The Lich template specifically says; can be added to any humanoid creature… A Vampire is a Humanoid and therefore, can also become a Lich. Nothing in the Lich template says anything about being alive. Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition). This also means no Vampie Dire Bears.
EldonG 06-30-06, 03:06 PM	What source lists Vampire as +5? Monster Manual lists them as +8. Am I wrong or does the Core III override all other sources? Huh? I have the MM open and I'm looking right at a +5... Edit: It's the ELITE that's +8! I get it, now!
EldonG 06-30-06, 03:09 PM	Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition). This also means no Vampie Dire Bears. No vampire dire bears? I LOVE my vampire dire bears! (besides...I have Libris Mortis...bwahahahaha...)
aod318 06-30-06, 03:17 PM	Because the moment a Humanoid becomes a Vampire, his type changes to Undead, his sub-type, if any, does not matter (in this case). The Lich template can only be applied to any Humanoid (this is a TYPE definition, not a sub-type definition). This also means no Vampie Dire Bears. Can you tell me the source of this ruleing? I have a necropolitian who is thinking about Lich. And that’s funny. Under the sample Vampire, Level Adj is +5, the sample Elite Vampire is listed as +8 and under Creating a Vampire, Level Adj is +8. Not that WotC ever makes mistakes in their books. With the whole, turn to dust in sunlight thing, I think +5 is more then enough. So, Vampire and then Vampire Lord is a total of +8. Still rough, but playable. No Dire Bear Vampires!?!
Stalwartmonkey 06-30-06, 04:48 PM	an intelligent vampire dire bear lich? an intelligent vampire feral dire bear lich? ooh, stacking templates is fun. no! a half-fiendish multi-headed (1 extra) vampire feral anthropomorphic whale lich with a major red dragon bloodline. Whatever happened to just playing a human, dwarf, elf or half-elf?
EldonG 06-30-06, 04:52 PM	an intelligent vampire dire bear lich? an intelligent vampire feral dire bear lich? ooh, stacking templates is fun. no! a half-fiendish multi-headed (1 extra) vampire feral anthropomorphic whale lich with a major red dragon bloodline. Whatever happened to just playing a human, dwarf, elf or half-elf? Playing? I play a human...but I also DM... :eek: :D :rolleyes: :cool: Edit: Egads! I just realized, in a total of 6 characters I've played more than once since 3.0 came out, they've been human, human, human, human, human, and human. I need to play something exotic...like...an elf? :confused:
Mystic Mouse 07-01-06, 11:17 AM	Can you tell me the source of this ruleing? I have a necropolitian who is thinking about Lich. And that’s funny. Under the sample Vampire, Level Adj is +5, the sample Elite Vampire is listed as +8 and under Creating a Vampire, Level Adj is +8. Not that WotC ever makes mistakes in their books. With the whole, turn to dust in sunlight thing, I think +5 is more then enough. So, Vampire and then Vampire Lord is a total of +8. Still rough, but playable. No Dire Bear Vampires!?! What ruling? This is just the basics of applying a template. It say clearly in the SRD: READING A TEMPLATE A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.” Size and Type: Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size. If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type. So becoming Undead, makes you type Undead (Augmented Humanoid), and before we go into "but it says any Humaoid", that refrences your Humanoid type, reguardless of subtype; for example if you are a: Human you are Humanoid (Human) Dwarf you are Humanoid (Dwarf) Hobgoblin you are Humanoid (Goblinoid) All these creatures are considered to be "any" kind Humanoid. Any creature with the Undead (any), is considered to be "any" kind of Undead. So an Undead (Augmented Humanoid) has the type and traits of an Undead, and the features of a humanoid (...usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head.), but they lose the benefit of being a Humanoid type (including gaining templates that only humanoids can get), and their traits are altered by any "new" traits that have been replaced by the undead template. It even goes on to warn people applying templates to "pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add."