Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Euch 10-31-06, 03:03 PM	I know its a change, but I'm not looking for the most uber-strong charecter, I'm looking for a versatile warrior build. (flavour-wise, I want it to be a cool charecter, and not in the meaning of "hey, I can kill a blue dragon bare-handed at level 6" :)) meaning - I want a warrior that can use many types of weapons (whip, sword, mace and a crossbow for example) that can do anything on the field. anything meaning disarming, sundering, tripping bullrushing, and (obviously) fighting. since that kind of fighter would require lots of feats, I suppose a fighter or feat rogue (didn't find it in UA though, so I'm not certain) would be the best choice, and naturally strength, con, dex and int (since its the charecter's theme, its a clever fighter) would be the most needed abilities, but other then that, I really have no idea how to create such charecter... I DO want a front-liner, I DON'T want to hie in shadoes and SA things to death (some would call it battlefield controler, but such charecters usually can't really hold on their own in a fight) books allowed: core books, "complete" series, "tome" series (didn't read 9 swords though, maybe one of the core classes there will be enough?), "races of the" series, miniature and BoED. races allowed: no race larger then medium (I know large or bigger would be best, but still) no race with LA thats it, I think. do your magic. please :) edit: nearly forgot - 32 point buy system nearly forgot 2 - phb2, dmg2 and frostburn books are also allowed
PhoenixInferno 10-31-06, 03:54 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638676 Strip out the stuff from PHBII.
Kirech 10-31-06, 04:11 PM	I'd take a look at Warblade. It lets you switch around your specialist feats daily, and you can take fighter-only feats two levels later. A couple levels of Chameleon (RoD) can also do wonders for versatility. In my humble opinion, those classes have coolness both built-in and easily added.
Euch 10-31-06, 04:48 PM	first of all - thanks for the replies. phoenix - I've seen that thread already, really liked what turned out at the end (since I liked the 3e MoC so much), but I'm looking for a charecter that can use more then one wepon at a time. like using a whip to disarm/trip enemies from a far, and once they get close drawing the heavy mace or the longsword and slash them to bits. having large number of options sounds a lot more fun then focusing on a single wepon type (even if it makes me weaker, think neo from matrix 1, the scene in the basement where he and trinity went to save morpheus, he used about 4 types of guns drawn from about anywhere, even from the enemy - disarm?), that is the type of versatility I'm seeking. Kirech - that PrC looks great, on first sight it looks just like the one I was looking for, a 2 level dip (if not all 10) will probably do wanders, thanks for the idea! although the part that bugs me the most in it is the fact I have to choose at the beginning of the day how to act for 24 hours, and I plan on beeing a lot more random then that :D umm... and didn't find the warblade anywhere (not even in the "where can I find" thread) btw, can't believe I forget to add in the phb2, dmg2 and frostburn to the books list. umm... any other suggestions or builds you can suggest me? I'm not that good at planning ahead :)
rilem 10-31-06, 05:28 PM	Drunken Master? That's pretty random. Really, in practice the Warblade's (Tome of Battle, btw) adaptability will be fine. You won't be pulling out a new weapon every round because one weapon will be plainly superior to the alternatives. And if you're just doing it for style — well, you said you don't mind being weaker, so you shouldn't mind sacrificing the extra bonuses.
zOgre 10-31-06, 05:33 PM	Warblade is a primary class from Tome of Battle, not a prestige class.
Euch 10-31-06, 05:49 PM	heh, the drunken master is a great example for what I'm looking for :D in any case, true, I don't mind secrificing some power, but I don't want to be a weakling that once sees a large or larger creature he can't do a thing, thats why I need help in optimising an all-around character. maybe the idea of "pulling out a greatsword off my ass" isn't duable, but I do want to be able to adept to as much situations as I need (if it to bull-rush a minutaor to a pit, tripping an angry orc while charging at me, disarming/sundering a wizard from its spell component's pouch (can I sunder a spell component's pouch?) or simply fight toe to toe (even if I'm weaker) with a swarven warrior. is it too much to ask? (oh-boy, better plug my ears before the "YES" you'll scream will tear down my ears :)) about the warblade, I'm not familier with stances or manuvers yet, but this class isn't seem fit (I may be mistaking, didn't read the entire book yet) edit: zogre - I was talking about the Chameleon PrC :)
FriendlyFrog 10-31-06, 06:23 PM	Chameleon can be random even if you can't change your aptitude focus on the fly. A Human (Feat) Rogue 2/Warblade 3/Chameleon 10/Warblade +5 is an epitome of sheer versatility With BAB 16, more than full skill monkey capabilities, 6th level arcane spells and 6th level divine spells from any class ever published, 7th level manouvers with the capability to use the floating feat to pick up new manouvers you'd like to have for the day, you could play as a warrior, and then switch to casting arcane or divine spells on the fly, and then back after having spent a few moments as a Rogue. Even if you have the Arcane focus doeasn't mean you have to be using it all the time. A Chameleon might not seem enough like a warrior, but it sure can manage the role well! And in addition to that it can more or less manage the other three archetypes without problems, at the same time.
FaerellG 10-31-06, 06:31 PM	My suggestion if you want an all around fighter. Make sure all of your important stats can meet the prereqs for the feats. Take fighter all the way up, and gun straight for the Tactical feats. That'll make you an all around fighter that can do lots of fancy things. I had a level 16 dwarf fighter who single handedly took down a cleric and 2 fighters of roughly equal level simply because I had too many abilities for my GM to keep track of. Simply put, I had the Elusive Target tactical feat, and the Cleric moved into a flanking position and tried to touch me with Harm. That pretty much ended the fight for one of my opponents.
Fingers Boggis 10-31-06, 06:41 PM	meaning - I want a warrior that can use many types of weapons (whip, sword, mace and a crossbow for example) that can do anything on the field. anything meaning disarming, sundering, tripping bullrushing, and (obviously) fighting. since that kind of fighter would require lots of feats, I suppose a fighter or feat rogue (didn't find it in UA though, so I'm not certain) would be the best choice, and naturally strength, con, dex and int (since its the charecter's theme, its a clever fighter) would be the most needed abilities, but other then that, I really have no idea how to create such charecter... I DO want a front-liner, I DON'T want to hie in shadoes and SA things to death (some would call it battlefield controler, but such charecters usually can't really hold on their own in a fight) warblade, as has already been mentioned, fills pretty much all of that :) maybe do some fighter dipping to grab some extra feats early on chameleon, as has already been mentioned, gives incredible versitility im sure there are other PrCs out there that would suit but im pretty tired atm
X-Codes 10-31-06, 07:03 PM	This is SO Human Warblade... Human Warblade 13/Fighter 2/Master of Nine 5 Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficency (any), Martial Study (Mighty Throw, Burning Blade, Crusader Strike, or Clinging Shadow Strike) Level 3: Adaptive Style Level 5: White Raven Defense Level 6: Clarion Commander Level 9: Blind-Fight, Improved Unarmed Strike Level 12: Improved Initiative Level 13: Ironheart Aura Level 14: Dodge Level 15: Mobility, Elusive Target Level 18: Stormguard Warrior
Nairalimis 10-31-06, 07:03 PM	Warblade is actually pretty flexable. You'll put a few feats ino one or two tricks like Improved Trip or Sundering. Then you'll grab maneuvers to help give you some damage options, and other tricks. As a random build skeleton (which a real optimizer will soon improve) using bits from Tome of Battle, PHB, and PHB II, for a stronger armorer generalist. Human Warblade Strength 16 Dexterity 12 Constitution 14 Intelligence 16 Wisdom 10 Charisma 8 Feats: Martial Study, Power Attack (to get to Sunder as soon as possible) Skills: Max Jump, other useful skills Maneuvers: Mighty Throw (Setting Sun) Charging Minotaur (Stone Dragon) Steel Wind (Iron heart) Steely Strike (Iron heart) Stance: Step of the Wind You'll start out with a trip (and throw), bull rush for damage and knocking enemies back, attacking multiple opponents, and a minor damage booster. As you level up, grab Claw at the Moon for more straight damage tricks, and using a few manuevers in Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon you should be decent at damage. Use Setting Sun to give yourself tripping options, and Iron Heart for Disarming and some useful combat tricks, Feats can help give you Sunder and Improved Disarm, or the extra maneuvers you'll want. You can get disarming though Diamond Mind by level 3, so consider getting Sunder via the feat. I'm way to lazy to take this to 20, but here's a quick 1-10 idea, which I'm sure a real optimizer can improve on. A build like this 1- Already shown 2- Leading the Attack (White Raven) 3- Claw at the Moon (Tiger Claw), Feat: Imp. Sunder 4- Replace Steely Strike with Disarming Strike (Iron heart), Add to Strength. Stance: Stonefoot Stance 5- Devistating Throw (Setting Sun) 6- Replace Steel Wind with Iron Heart Surge (Iron heart), Take Martial Study, get Flesh Ripper (Tiger Claw) or Giant Killing Stance (Setting Sun) to work against larger enemies better. 7- Get Death From Above (Tiger Claw) 8- Repalce Claw at the Moon with Soaring Raptor Stike (Tiger Claw). Attribute Boost: Strength 9- Take Soaring Throw (Setting Sun). Feat: Stormguard Warrior 10- Swap in Pouncing Charge for Flesh Ripper if you took it at 6. Stance: Dancing Blade Form By this point, you should have some throw options, decent damage (eaisly boosted by Stormguard Warrior if needed), standard sundering tricks, and some disarming. Without adaptive style, you'll be a bit focused in each encounter (with limited manuevers), but we're already using all the feats here. I'd actually go with a Swordsage with Adaptive Style. You'll have more than enough maneuvers to cover all the various bases for various combat tricks, and you can change everything with a full round action. Downsides, medium BAB and not a lot of ranged tricks.
ThePrivateer 10-31-06, 07:53 PM	My suggestion if you want an all around fighter. Make sure all of your important stats can meet the prereqs for the feats. Take fighter all the way up, and gun straight for the Tactical feats. That'll make you an all around fighter that can do lots of fancy things. I had a level 16 dwarf fighter who single handedly took down a cleric and 2 fighters of roughly equal level simply because I had too many abilities for my GM to keep track of. Simply put, I had the Elusive Target tactical feat, and the Cleric moved into a flanking position and tried to touch me with Harm. That pretty much ended the fight for one of my opponents. I've gotta agree that tactical feats sound like what you'd have fun playing with -- lots of fiddly, cool abilities that let you do just the right thing per the situation. I also have to say that the Elusive Target/redirected Harm thing is one of the most wonderful things I've ever come across.
Euch 11-01-06, 02:23 AM	ok, I'm (finally) conviced! (on warblade, that is) I'll do the build once I'm at home with the books and all (I really know nothing about manuvers and all), but a short question beforehand. wouldn't a monk 2 be better then a fighter/(feat) rogue? I'm getting evasion like the rogue, I get flurry, which'll be kind of good since I'm not a massive tank, using carmendine monk will let me have high int, and therefore lots of skill-points, and great feats I will take aventually. or will the no-armor policy wont do good to me? :) the fighter-based charecters at my group aren't usually heavy optimisers, so running after every point of AC available, or damage output really isn't what I'm after... I just want battles to be fun(ny) :)
Fingers Boggis 11-01-06, 07:04 AM	depends whether your monk bonus feats are as good as what you would have taken as fighter bonus feats and using carmedine steals a feat away from you (though it is quite handy). The problem with pretty much any combat build are there are always so many feats you want :) going cobra strike monk gives you dodge and mobility for free so you can pick up elusive target easily making it my prefered school and this still works with carmedine monk. fighter levels also raises your number of levels for fighter only feats which may be a consideration depending on your build the other factor which you mentioned is skills, fighter is pretty rubbish for skills. you wont be able to flurry with the vast majority of weapons without shou disciple levels so this is probably less of a big deal than you think. hope that helps a bit Fingers
Euch 11-02-06, 07:19 PM	firstly, sorry for the delay, been trying to realise how stuff works with all the stances/manuvers etc. its pretty understandable mechanisem, but still hard to nderstand. in any csae, I'm thinking of going human (feat) rogue 4, warblade 1, chameleon 10, warblade 4 the extra feat&skills from the rogue worth the 2 levels loss of warblade, especially since I only get 1 more manuver... I'm thinking of going "Iron heart" and focus on swords (much like fighter in 8 bit theatre, maybe I'll even convince my DM to let me use sword-chucks :)) so here is the build, please help me fix it (32 point buy system) str: 16 dex: 14 con: 12 int: 14 (should I switch this one with strength?) wis: 14 (should I switch this one with constitution?) cha: 8 rogue 1: power attack, dodge, combat reflexes, trapfinding rogue 2: quick draw, evasion rogue 3: mobility, trap sense+1 rogue 4: EWP (bastard sword), uncanny dodge warblade 1: battle clarity, weapon aptitude chameleon 1: elusive target, aptitude focus chameleon 2: improved disarm (changeable once per day, probably to any other improved *) chameleon 3: mimic class feature chameleon 4: spring attack, ability boon chameleon 5: chameleon 6: chameleon 7: heroic destiny, double aptitude chameleon 8: repid refocus chameleon 9: chameleon 10: fearless destiny warblade 2: improved uncanny dodge warblade 3: battle ardor warblade 4: open feat (weapon focus?) warblade 5: open feat (weapon specialization?) warblade 6: wasted improved uncanny dodge :( ok, this is the build as I see it... not sure on where to invest the ability points (all to strength maybe?) note I didn't put even 1 feat from the tome of battle since I have no idea weather I can have the prerequisits or not, so I WILL need help in there as well. other then that, seems like the charecter can do a veraiety of things, which is sort of what I was planning on... but its weakend it a lot. any tips from the masters? :)
Euch 11-03-06, 10:29 AM	what? this build is THAT bad? comon guys... I'm pretty much clueless, as you can tell :D
HatTrick 11-03-06, 11:03 AM	I hate to derail the train, cause I agree that warblade is more or less what you're looking for, but you could also check out the psychic warrior from Expanded Psionics. It's a fighter with psionic abilities, but you lose some BAB. Its versatile though because you have abilities that'll help you overcome damage resistance and all kinds of other stuff that you're going to run into. As a side note, I LOVE chameleon
Kirech 11-03-06, 11:57 AM	Your build has some issues, particularly with feat selection. You need Able Learner to get into Chameleon. You need Combat Expertise to take Improved Disarm. Spring Attack isn't very useful in a Martial Adept build. The Heroic Destiny and Fearless Destiny feats aren't very useful in general. You have to have Warblade 6 in order to take Weapon Specialization, and I don't think it's on the Warblade bonus feat list. One modification I'd make is to cut it down to two martial rogue levels. It's tempting to delay Warblade 1 until you can take 2nd level maneuvers, but by doing it you're limiting access to higher level maneuvers. Don't forget that you can swap out low-level maneuvers for high-level ones at even levels starting at level 4.
Euch 11-03-06, 08:16 PM	hattrick, thanks for the pointers, but psionic isn't on my list, so I can't use that class Kirech, you're right, I forgot I need the able learner feat. - so I'll put able learner instead of power attack (its useless to rogues anyway, so I can delay it a lot) - about improved trip, you're right, I ment to write combat expertiese instead of combat reflexes - whats so bad at spring attack? I really don't know the 9 swords really well yet, so a pointer would be nice, but since I can act as as nearly every available class, I figured it might be handy, but if its that bad, I'de put power attack in here - about heroic/fearless destiny, guess you're right, even if I escape death for one round, I will die the next one, so I suppose I'll take EWP (spiked chain) and combat reflexes here, so I'll be able to AOO more the usual, or would you offer some other feats in here? - somehow I figured the extra feat was worth it, didn't even notice there's a level cap on some of the manuvers, thanks for that pointer, guess I'll go (feat) rogue 2 and not 4, that'll take care of weapon specialization as well. oh, turn out you offered that already :) well, here's the new build, any suggestions? (maybe ideas more tactical feats I better have the prerequisits so the rotating feat will have more impact then diarm/trip/sunder etc?) rogue 1: able learner, dodge, combat expertiese, trapfinding rogue 2: quick draw, evasion warblade 1: mobility, battle clarity, weapon aptitude warblade 2: uncanny dodge warblade 3: battle ardor chameleon 1: elusive target, aptitude focus chameleon 2: improved disarm (changeable once per day, probably to any other improved *) chameleon 3: mimic class feature chameleon 4: power attack, ability boon chameleon 5: chameleon 6: chameleon 7: EWP(spiked chain), double aptitude chameleon 8: repid refocus chameleon 9: chameleon 10: combat reflexes warblade 4: warblade 5: open feat (weapon focus?) warblade 6: open feat (weapon specialization?), improved uncanny dodge warblade 7: battle cunning (damage) warblade 8: as you see, still needs suggestions on that charecter, feat-wise as well as stances/manuver-wise (since I have no idea which are the most usable for my type of charecter) so would appreciate any help on this. in any case, I really don't like the spiked chain (don't want to become a spiked-chain monkey) and the fact I get power attack so late... any ideas there as well? any good feats I didn't took note of at all? will TWF or THF be better in here?
Kirech 11-03-06, 09:42 PM	The reason Spring Attack isn't as good for Martial Adepts is that most strikes are standard actions. Since Spring Attack only lets you use a single attack along with your movement, you can't use Spring Attack and a martial strike in the same round. You'll want to be using strikes most of the time when you attack, so Spring Attack will wind up being used very little. You might want to read up more on maneuvers and stances before you commit to a Warblade build. There's a lot of good stuff there, but you need to understand the rules to get the most out of it.
Euch 11-05-06, 05:44 PM	funny, I've always thought the spring atack gives you a standard action and not just an attack (and I've seen some people go spring attack-trip, which added to my confusion) but the text suggest otherwise, thanks for the clerification, guess I'll take the later built since as a template since it'll offer more advanced manuvers and better feat selection on my build. thanks for everything!
FriendlyFrog 11-06-06, 03:10 AM	funny, I've always thought the spring atack gives you a standard action and not just an attack (and I've seen some people go spring attack-trip, which added to my confusion) Tripping is a part of an attack action, it doesn't take a standard action.