Building an Incarnate that doesnt suck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building an Incarnate that doesnt suck [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Squirrelloid
06-22-06, 03:07 PM Ok, i'm not a bad optimizer, but i'm stumped on what an incarnate is supposed to be doing by level 20.

(1) Incarnates have very few save or x melds. Its around 3. They aren't even especially good ones (as opposed to the Totemist ones which rock). So they have to make attack rolls to do anything in combat.

(2) They have wizard BAB. Joy.

(3) You can be competitive in hitting with a L/N Incarnate. Assuming Strength starts at 18, your con is your next best stat, and you don't sack dex: 20th level attack bonus +10 (BAB) +12 (str) +8 (enhancement Incarnate weapon with gloves +1 essentia capacity and feat for +1 essentia capacity) +5 (incarnum radiance) + 8 (insight incarnate avatar with item/feat as per weapon) = +43/+38. But thats only 2 attacks. You've also used 16/26 essentia so far, and are dealing a measly 1d8+20 damage per hit.

(4) You can get some sick damage as a N/E Incarnate, but you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 20th. (losing at least +13 for not being lawful, and probably wanting to use Necrocarnum Weapon).

(5) There are no good PrCs for an Incarnate. Specifically, Incarnate has some class features you can't afford to lose (like essentia capacity +2), and binding Incarnate Avatar to your soul chakra is decently good - amazing if you're L/N. PrCing arguably (though the RAW is actually unclear) decreases the effectiveness of your Incarnum Radiance. The soul forger PrC is the only one even worth considering.

So, what can be done with Incarnate 20. Preferably without use of UMD (because thats sort of like giving up and saying it can't do anything without pretending to be a real spellcaster). Any race, though i'd prefer Dwarf or Azurin. The final (winning?) build should be competitive in an environment without primary spellcasters (no clerics, wizards, druids, sorcerors) that is otherwise optimized. (So yes Gattling Tripper, King of Smack, etc...).
Richmud
06-22-06, 03:17 PM The key is the weapon enchantment from complete arcane that causes you to function as if you had 3/4th bab, I belive its called skillful. From there you can primarily optimize damage from the evil soulmelds.

Its also important to note that incarnates can actually be very capable skill users in general thanks to the skill boosting soulmelds.
Board_Rider
06-22-06, 03:54 PM I will post more when I have the MoI book with me but I will tell you now that Azurins and Incarnates are, unfortunately, not possible, unless the DM decides that an Azurin can be neutral.

In the Azurin flavor text somewhere it states that an Azurin are never neutral. Of course, this is flavor text and can be changed.

I have played a straight Incarnate and I think I can help you out here. When I get home I will try to offer you up something. May not be the most optimized (as I don't own "every" book) but it may be a jump start.
Nairalimis
06-22-06, 04:35 PM Chaos Incarnates can make decent ranged fighters. With speed boosting, damage boosting, and attack bonuses, they're just a tad shy of some feats, and I believe Precise and Point blank are avaliable from one of the soulmelds. You should be able to run up a unusually high damage and hit bonus with ranged weapons. I personally enjoy a pair of skillful handcrossbows, combined with rapid reload, multishot, and the like. You'll have the benefit of a good attack roll to offset the multiple attacks, and with a strong incarnum investment in Bluesteel Gauntlets or Sighting Gauntlets boosting your damage, you can get a decent ranged fighter. Toss on your Vitality Belt, some concealment melds, and your standard speed boosters, and you should be able to run around avoiding anyone hitting you while peppering the enemy.

For some very detailed (and good) work on Incarnum check out
Tleilaxu_Ghola's Incarnum Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530815) which has a lot of tricks and ideas for Incarnum characters.

There's another good thread, but I can't remember it.
Khazra Reborn
06-22-06, 05:27 PM Is it the combat role you want to achieve?

The saphire heirach is a nice way to do it.
Azurin Cleric6/incarnate4/saphire hierach 10
domains: planning & war
14th level incarnum, 16th casting
Use divine metamagic persistant spell to persist divine power for 20 BaB. After that, your about as good at hitting things as anyone else :P

If you want more incarnum/ less casting then you could go for something like:
cleric1/incarnate14/divine crusader2/saphire heirach3
domain: war or competition
17th level incarnum, very limited spellcasting but persistant divine power is possible thus gaining the key advantage you want ie 17th level incarnum with 20BaB.
Tempest Stormwind
06-22-06, 05:33 PM There's another good thread, but I can't remember it.
That would be Incarnate By The Numbers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633), a wonderful resource by Todd.

The Incarnate's a VERY deceptive class in that its assets get around most of its obvious limitations, and the assets are hidden in the soulmelds. Low attack bonus? Touch attacks or a weapon with disproportionate enhancement bonuses for your level. Low hit points? CON primary ability and the ability to add HUNDREDS of hit points to yours whenever you need to. Low skill points? ...well, see the thread I linked, and you'll see an incarnate can compare with a ROGUE -- except the incarnate can change his skill specialties from day to day.
Squirrelloid
06-22-06, 05:45 PM Is it the combat role you want to achieve?

The saphire heirach is a nice way to do it.
Azurin Cleric6/incarnate4/saphire hierach 10
domains: planning & war
14th level incarnum, 16th casting
Use divine metamagic persistant spell to persist divine power for 20 BaB. After that, your about as good at hitting things as anyone else :P

If you want more incarnum/ less casting then you could go for something like:
cleric1/incarnate14/divine crusader2/saphire heirach3
domain: war or competition
17th level incarnum, very limited spellcasting but persistant divine power is possible thus gaining the key advantage you want ie 17th level incarnum with 20BaB.

This is all nice, except for the *campaign without primary spellcasters* part. Cleric is banned. As is wizard and druid. Divine metamagic and all other avoid metamagic cost increases are also banned categorically.

It might help if you read the last paragraph.
Khazra Reborn
06-22-06, 06:00 PM How about playing a warforged? Use UMD scroll of alter self into a warforged charger, followed by UMD scroll of permenancy (so it uses UMD, but there not particuarly strong spells, if its a problem still, ignore the rest). This gives you 2 1D8slams. second slam feat will add a third slam to this. Bind the astral vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) to your arms with the trip ability chosen from the astral construct menu. Take combat reflexes and improved trip feats. So, when you attack with a slam and make your free trip attack, you also get an AoO. Thus you technically have 4 attacks/round despite your 10 BaB. If you can use SS then you could change type to dragon through a ritual and then i think get rapid strike (i can't remember what BAB you need for the feat but a skillful necklace of natural attack's 15BAB should be enough i think.)
Innervation
06-22-06, 11:35 PM Incarnate's advantage is in consistent output and versatile abilities, and I believe the authors of the book correctly erred on the side of caution knowing that all the abilities could be used every round of combat if desired (this is why incarnate-20 will often be underwhelming compared to optimized caster/heavy-dmg-fighter builds). Mantle of flame might be the best AoE, no-attack ability incarnates get, and that isn't saying much.

A tricky thing about incarnate is that once you have one level you have every soulmeld on their list, and feats or spells can do the binding for you so you're free to multi-class (scout, wizard, druid(for share soulmeld), sapphire-H).

The incarnum by numbers link shows how an incarnate can keep up with warlock in blasting power, but if you get a few familiars or animal companions to share your soulmelds with, you easily surpass him. It also shows how incarnates compare to rogues as skill-monkeys, and UMD fun. But since you're set on no-UMD incarnate-20, there are some okay abilities at your disposal.

At the high levels you could get a 30+ SR, or decent blasts from necrocarnum touch, i guess... but nothing to really compare to, say, a 20th lvl caster in raw-power.

I'd choose Lawful for both the immunities and because powerattack can convert attack bonuses into damage. Unless you want to loosely read necrocarnate as stacking its bonus essentia.

**
While it may not directly pertain to your request, I want to mention that at low levels, a non-good incarnate has the easiest undead-creation tool ever, necro-circlet, and can turn a trog or lizardman into a beast likely better than the primary fighter of the group.
**

Quick sketch:

Lawful Azurin Incarnate 20.
Feats: Expand Meld Capacity, Necrocarnum Acolyte(B), Power-Attack, Bonus Essentia, Expand Meld Capacity, Split Chakra [soul] << to wear armor, Double Chakra [throat], ???

Melds:
Incarnate avatar [soul]
Dissolving Spittle [throat]
Necrocarnum Circlet [crown]
Spellward shirt [heart]
Apparition Ribbon [throat]
Necrocarnum Weapon
Mantle of Flame
Adamant pauldrons

Incarnum focus on waist, heart, throat
Expanded essentia on throat, heart

Gets you (depending on allocation):

* SR = 5 + 8*4 = 37 (could be a little higher with multi-classing)
* Ranged Touch at up to 8d6 + 8d6 acid at will
* Immunities (4 * <7th-lvl spells, stun, daze, petrification, paralysis, slow)
* Incorporeal 2 min / day (touch attacks for max power-attack)
*DR up to 7/chaos
*20 HD necrocarnum zombie friend (pit fiend?)
*Bonus 140 HP if you reshape into vitality belt :)
*attackers take nd6 points of fire damage in melee

Skillful weapon is a good recommendation, too.

Forgemaster's weapon and shield bonds aren't bad if you decide to go that way.
Innervation
06-22-06, 11:38 PM oops double post :(
Squirrelloid
06-24-06, 02:53 PM Incarnate's advantage is in consistent output and versatile abilities, and I believe the authors of the book correctly erred on the side of caution knowing that all the abilities could be used every round of combat if desired (this is why incarnate-20 will often be underwhelming compared to optimized caster/heavy-dmg-fighter builds). Mantle of flame might be the best AoE, no-attack ability incarnates get, and that isn't saying much.

A tricky thing about incarnate is that once you have one level you have every soulmeld on their list, and feats or spells can do the binding for you so you're free to multi-class (scout, wizard, druid(for share soulmeld), sapphire-H).

The incarnum by numbers link shows how an incarnate can keep up with warlock in blasting power, but if you get a few familiars or animal companions to share your soulmelds with, you easily surpass him. It also shows how incarnates compare to rogues as skill-monkeys, and UMD fun. But since you're set on no-UMD incarnate-20, there are some okay abilities at your disposal.

At the high levels you could get a 30+ SR, or decent blasts from necrocarnum touch, i guess... but nothing to really compare to, say, a 20th lvl caster in raw-power.

I'd choose Lawful for both the immunities and because powerattack can convert attack bonuses into damage. Unless you want to loosely read necrocarnate as stacking its bonus essentia.

**
While it may not directly pertain to your request, I want to mention that at low levels, a non-good incarnate has the easiest undead-creation tool ever, necro-circlet, and can turn a trog or lizardman into a beast likely better than the primary fighter of the group.
**

Quick sketch:

Lawful Azurin Incarnate 20.
Feats: Expand Meld Capacity, Necrocarnum Acolyte(B), Power-Attack, Bonus Essentia, Expand Meld Capacity, Split Chakra [soul] << to wear armor, Double Chakra [throat], ???

Melds:
Incarnate avatar [soul]
Dissolving Spittle [throat]
Necrocarnum Circlet [crown]
Spellward shirt [heart]
Apparition Ribbon [throat]
Necrocarnum Weapon
Mantle of Flame
Adamant pauldrons

Incarnum focus on waist, heart, throat
Expanded essentia on throat, heart

Gets you (depending on allocation):

* SR = 5 + 8*4 = 37 (could be a little higher with multi-classing)
* Ranged Touch at up to 8d6 + 8d6 acid at will
* Immunities (4 * <7th-lvl spells, stun, daze, petrification, paralysis, slow)
* Incorporeal 2 min / day (touch attacks for max power-attack)
*DR up to 7/chaos
*20 HD necrocarnum zombie friend (pit fiend?)
*Bonus 140 HP if you reshape into vitality belt :)
*attackers take nd6 points of fire damage in melee

Skillful weapon is a good recommendation, too.

Forgemaster's weapon and shield bonds aren't bad if you decide to go that way.

I'm confused about one thing: if you become incorporeal your strength becomes -, which means you no longer qualify for PA and thus can't use it. Or am i mistaken about something here: apparition ribbon only says you gain all the benefits of the incorporeal subtype (and arguably str - is not a "benefit", but ow the rules lawyering), but you do become incorporeal, which should have all the attendant consequences.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Squirrelloid 06-22-06, 03:07 PM	Ok, i'm not a bad optimizer, but i'm stumped on what an incarnate is supposed to be doing by level 20. (1) Incarnates have very few save or x melds. Its around 3. They aren't even especially good ones (as opposed to the Totemist ones which rock). So they have to make attack rolls to do anything in combat. (2) They have wizard BAB. Joy. (3) You can be competitive in hitting with a L/N Incarnate. Assuming Strength starts at 18, your con is your next best stat, and you don't sack dex: 20th level attack bonus +10 (BAB) +12 (str) +8 (enhancement Incarnate weapon with gloves +1 essentia capacity and feat for +1 essentia capacity) +5 (incarnum radiance) + 8 (insight incarnate avatar with item/feat as per weapon) = +43/+38. But thats only 2 attacks. You've also used 16/26 essentia so far, and are dealing a measly 1d8+20 damage per hit. (4) You can get some sick damage as a N/E Incarnate, but you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 20th. (losing at least +13 for not being lawful, and probably wanting to use Necrocarnum Weapon). (5) There are no good PrCs for an Incarnate. Specifically, Incarnate has some class features you can't afford to lose (like essentia capacity +2), and binding Incarnate Avatar to your soul chakra is decently good - amazing if you're L/N. PrCing arguably (though the RAW is actually unclear) decreases the effectiveness of your Incarnum Radiance. The soul forger PrC is the only one even worth considering. So, what can be done with Incarnate 20. Preferably without use of UMD (because thats sort of like giving up and saying it can't do anything without pretending to be a real spellcaster). Any race, though i'd prefer Dwarf or Azurin. The final (winning?) build should be competitive in an environment without primary spellcasters (no clerics, wizards, druids, sorcerors) that is otherwise optimized. (So yes Gattling Tripper, King of Smack, etc...).
Richmud 06-22-06, 03:17 PM	The key is the weapon enchantment from complete arcane that causes you to function as if you had 3/4th bab, I belive its called skillful. From there you can primarily optimize damage from the evil soulmelds. Its also important to note that incarnates can actually be very capable skill users in general thanks to the skill boosting soulmelds.
Board_Rider 06-22-06, 03:54 PM	I will post more when I have the MoI book with me but I will tell you now that Azurins and Incarnates are, unfortunately, not possible, unless the DM decides that an Azurin can be neutral. In the Azurin flavor text somewhere it states that an Azurin are never neutral. Of course, this is flavor text and can be changed. I have played a straight Incarnate and I think I can help you out here. When I get home I will try to offer you up something. May not be the most optimized (as I don't own "every" book) but it may be a jump start.
Nairalimis 06-22-06, 04:35 PM	Chaos Incarnates can make decent ranged fighters. With speed boosting, damage boosting, and attack bonuses, they're just a tad shy of some feats, and I believe Precise and Point blank are avaliable from one of the soulmelds. You should be able to run up a unusually high damage and hit bonus with ranged weapons. I personally enjoy a pair of skillful handcrossbows, combined with rapid reload, multishot, and the like. You'll have the benefit of a good attack roll to offset the multiple attacks, and with a strong incarnum investment in Bluesteel Gauntlets or Sighting Gauntlets boosting your damage, you can get a decent ranged fighter. Toss on your Vitality Belt, some concealment melds, and your standard speed boosters, and you should be able to run around avoiding anyone hitting you while peppering the enemy. For some very detailed (and good) work on Incarnum check out Tleilaxu_Ghola's Incarnum Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530815) which has a lot of tricks and ideas for Incarnum characters. There's another good thread, but I can't remember it.
Khazra Reborn 06-22-06, 05:27 PM	Is it the combat role you want to achieve? The saphire heirach is a nice way to do it. Azurin Cleric6/incarnate4/saphire hierach 10 domains: planning & war 14th level incarnum, 16th casting Use divine metamagic persistant spell to persist divine power for 20 BaB. After that, your about as good at hitting things as anyone else :P If you want more incarnum/ less casting then you could go for something like: cleric1/incarnate14/divine crusader2/saphire heirach3 domain: war or competition 17th level incarnum, very limited spellcasting but persistant divine power is possible thus gaining the key advantage you want ie 17th level incarnum with 20BaB.
Tempest Stormwind 06-22-06, 05:33 PM	There's another good thread, but I can't remember it. That would be Incarnate By The Numbers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633), a wonderful resource by Todd. The Incarnate's a VERY deceptive class in that its assets get around most of its obvious limitations, and the assets are hidden in the soulmelds. Low attack bonus? Touch attacks or a weapon with disproportionate enhancement bonuses for your level. Low hit points? CON primary ability and the ability to add HUNDREDS of hit points to yours whenever you need to. Low skill points? ...well, see the thread I linked, and you'll see an incarnate can compare with a ROGUE -- except the incarnate can change his skill specialties from day to day.
Squirrelloid 06-22-06, 05:45 PM	Is it the combat role you want to achieve? The saphire heirach is a nice way to do it. Azurin Cleric6/incarnate4/saphire hierach 10 domains: planning & war 14th level incarnum, 16th casting Use divine metamagic persistant spell to persist divine power for 20 BaB. After that, your about as good at hitting things as anyone else :P If you want more incarnum/ less casting then you could go for something like: cleric1/incarnate14/divine crusader2/saphire heirach3 domain: war or competition 17th level incarnum, very limited spellcasting but persistant divine power is possible thus gaining the key advantage you want ie 17th level incarnum with 20BaB. This is all nice, except for the campaign without primary spellcasters part. Cleric is banned. As is wizard and druid. Divine metamagic and all other avoid metamagic cost increases are also banned categorically. It might help if you read the last paragraph.
Khazra Reborn 06-22-06, 06:00 PM	How about playing a warforged? Use UMD scroll of alter self into a warforged charger, followed by UMD scroll of permenancy (so it uses UMD, but there not particuarly strong spells, if its a problem still, ignore the rest). This gives you 2 1D8slams. second slam feat will add a third slam to this. Bind the astral vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) to your arms with the trip ability chosen from the astral construct menu. Take combat reflexes and improved trip feats. So, when you attack with a slam and make your free trip attack, you also get an AoO. Thus you technically have 4 attacks/round despite your 10 BaB. If you can use SS then you could change type to dragon through a ritual and then i think get rapid strike (i can't remember what BAB you need for the feat but a skillful necklace of natural attack's 15BAB should be enough i think.)
Innervation 06-22-06, 11:35 PM	Incarnate's advantage is in consistent output and versatile abilities, and I believe the authors of the book correctly erred on the side of caution knowing that all the abilities could be used every round of combat if desired (this is why incarnate-20 will often be underwhelming compared to optimized caster/heavy-dmg-fighter builds). Mantle of flame might be the best AoE, no-attack ability incarnates get, and that isn't saying much. A tricky thing about incarnate is that once you have one level you have every soulmeld on their list, and feats or spells can do the binding for you so you're free to multi-class (scout, wizard, druid(for share soulmeld), sapphire-H). The incarnum by numbers link shows how an incarnate can keep up with warlock in blasting power, but if you get a few familiars or animal companions to share your soulmelds with, you easily surpass him. It also shows how incarnates compare to rogues as skill-monkeys, and UMD fun. But since you're set on no-UMD incarnate-20, there are some okay abilities at your disposal. At the high levels you could get a 30+ SR, or decent blasts from necrocarnum touch, i guess... but nothing to really compare to, say, a 20th lvl caster in raw-power. I'd choose Lawful for both the immunities and because powerattack can convert attack bonuses into damage. Unless you want to loosely read necrocarnate as stacking its bonus essentia. While it may not directly pertain to your request, I want to mention that at low levels, a non-good incarnate has the easiest undead-creation tool ever, necro-circlet, and can turn a trog or lizardman into a beast likely better than the primary fighter of the group. Quick sketch: Lawful Azurin Incarnate 20. Feats: Expand Meld Capacity, Necrocarnum Acolyte(B), Power-Attack, Bonus Essentia, Expand Meld Capacity, Split Chakra [soul] << to wear armor, Double Chakra [throat], ??? Melds: Incarnate avatar [soul] Dissolving Spittle [throat] Necrocarnum Circlet [crown] Spellward shirt [heart] Apparition Ribbon [throat] Necrocarnum Weapon Mantle of Flame Adamant pauldrons Incarnum focus on waist, heart, throat Expanded essentia on throat, heart Gets you (depending on allocation): * SR = 5 + 84 = 37 (could be a little higher with multi-classing) Ranged Touch at up to 8d6 + 8d6 acid at will * Immunities (4 * <7th-lvl spells, stun, daze, petrification, paralysis, slow) * Incorporeal 2 min / day (touch attacks for max power-attack) DR up to 7/chaos 20 HD necrocarnum zombie friend (pit fiend?) Bonus 140 HP if you reshape into vitality belt :) attackers take nd6 points of fire damage in melee Skillful weapon is a good recommendation, too. Forgemaster's weapon and shield bonds aren't bad if you decide to go that way.
Innervation 06-22-06, 11:38 PM	oops double post :(
Squirrelloid 06-24-06, 02:53 PM	Incarnate's advantage is in consistent output and versatile abilities, and I believe the authors of the book correctly erred on the side of caution knowing that all the abilities could be used every round of combat if desired (this is why incarnate-20 will often be underwhelming compared to optimized caster/heavy-dmg-fighter builds). Mantle of flame might be the best AoE, no-attack ability incarnates get, and that isn't saying much. A tricky thing about incarnate is that once you have one level you have every soulmeld on their list, and feats or spells can do the binding for you so you're free to multi-class (scout, wizard, druid(for share soulmeld), sapphire-H). The incarnum by numbers link shows how an incarnate can keep up with warlock in blasting power, but if you get a few familiars or animal companions to share your soulmelds with, you easily surpass him. It also shows how incarnates compare to rogues as skill-monkeys, and UMD fun. But since you're set on no-UMD incarnate-20, there are some okay abilities at your disposal. At the high levels you could get a 30+ SR, or decent blasts from necrocarnum touch, i guess... but nothing to really compare to, say, a 20th lvl caster in raw-power. I'd choose Lawful for both the immunities and because powerattack can convert attack bonuses into damage. Unless you want to loosely read necrocarnate as stacking its bonus essentia. While it may not directly pertain to your request, I want to mention that at low levels, a non-good incarnate has the easiest undead-creation tool ever, necro-circlet, and can turn a trog or lizardman into a beast likely better than the primary fighter of the group. Quick sketch: Lawful Azurin Incarnate 20. Feats: Expand Meld Capacity, Necrocarnum Acolyte(B), Power-Attack, Bonus Essentia, Expand Meld Capacity, Split Chakra [soul] << to wear armor, Double Chakra [throat], ??? Melds: Incarnate avatar [soul] Dissolving Spittle [throat] Necrocarnum Circlet [crown] Spellward shirt [heart] Apparition Ribbon [throat] Necrocarnum Weapon Mantle of Flame Adamant pauldrons Incarnum focus on waist, heart, throat Expanded essentia on throat, heart Gets you (depending on allocation): * SR = 5 + 84 = 37 (could be a little higher with multi-classing) Ranged Touch at up to 8d6 + 8d6 acid at will * Immunities (4 * <7th-lvl spells, stun, daze, petrification, paralysis, slow) * Incorporeal 2 min / day (touch attacks for max power-attack) DR up to 7/chaos 20 HD necrocarnum zombie friend (pit fiend?) Bonus 140 HP if you reshape into vitality belt :) attackers take nd6 points of fire damage in melee Skillful weapon is a good recommendation, too. Forgemaster's weapon and shield bonds aren't bad if you decide to go that way. I'm confused about one thing: if you become incorporeal your strength becomes -, which means you no longer qualify for PA and thus can't use it. Or am i mistaken about something here: apparition ribbon only says you gain all the benefits of the incorporeal subtype (and arguably str - is not a "benefit", but ow the rules lawyering), but you do become incorporeal, which should have all the attendant consequences.