Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fil kearney 07-27-06, 04:39 AM	Hey there folks... I couldn't find any other place to psot this so here it is... anyone going back to song and silence will see an example under building traps where the theif uses a trap to cast cat's grace on her as she heads out. page 75 of dmg 3.5 has no statements to prevent beneficial traps from being created... so the question is, if a trap can be tripped with a move action, why wouldn't people trap little buttons on their armour when pressed deploy chosen buff spells? The other dm's i've discussed this with find nothing wrong in the RAW, it just requires a good craft; trapmaking skill, and some basic spell casting ability. there's also rules on cascading trap effects.. one trap triggering another trap triggering... allowing multi buffs with one move action. with hustle in effect, mega buff and full attack each round no problem... the trap can actually amdminister hustle as well... to allow perpetual buff and full attack sequences. can anyone see why this won't work?
Mystic Ninja 07-27-06, 05:02 AM	Hey there folks... I couldn't find any other place to psot this so here it is... anyone going back to song and silence will see an example under building traps where the theif uses a trap to cast cat's grace on her as she heads out. page 75 of dmg 3.5 has no statements to prevent beneficial traps from being created... so the question is, if a trap can be tripped with a move action, why wouldn't people trap little buttons on their armour when pressed deploy chosen buff spells? The other dm's i've discussed this with find nothing wrong in the RAW, it just requires a good craft; trapmaking skill, and some basic spell casting ability. there's also rules on cascading trap effects.. one trap triggering another trap triggering... allowing multi buffs with one move action. with hustle in effect, mega buff and full attack each round no problem... the trap can actually amdminister hustle as well... to allow perpetual buff and full attack sequences. can anyone see why this won't work? Nup. Legal as can be. Enjoy it, just try not to go overboard or your DM may decide that you really shouldn't have it. Play a Kobold [craft: traps becomes a perma skill and you gain +2 with it], its flavourful and unexpected [the tiny non-threatening kobold presses a button on its armour and becomes a massive towering iron engine of pure destruction - cascading trap, Giant Size, Iron Body, etc. etc.].
Zendu 07-27-06, 05:41 AM	Yes, there is nothign wrong with this in the rules, however i must point out that in essence, you are getting slotless spells cast on you X/day. If you pay the wonderus item cost for it I have no problems with it as a Dm(although why not just get the item), if you wanna char op it up, this might be a cheaper way to get buffs. *char op should really be cheese in that sentance.
hogarth 07-27-06, 08:46 AM	I'm not an expert on trapbuilding, but the cost is something like: 500 gp x caster level x spell level for an unlimited use spell trap. Compare that with a wand: 750 gp x caster level x spell level The wand "only" has 50 charges, but it has a huge portability advantage. With the exception of wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor, it takes my characters a long (effectively unlimited) time to burn through a wand. So I think I'd prefer the wand, unless I knew that I was going to be attacked in my own house ten times a day for some reason.
Gryftir 07-27-06, 08:54 AM	You could trap a portable hole.
fil kearney 07-27-06, 01:43 PM	I'm not an expert on trapbuilding, but the cost is something like: 500 gp x caster level x spell level for an unlimited use spell trap. Compare that with a wand: 750 gp x caster level x spell level The wand "only" has 50 charges, but it has a huge portability advantage. With the exception of wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor, it takes my characters a long (effectively unlimited) time to burn through a wand. So I think I'd prefer the wand, unless I knew that I was going to be attacked in my own house ten times a day for some reason. the thing is you can trap objects of any size, it doesn't have to be a permanent location trap. if you can trap a lock on a chest you can trap anything hand held... and since magic has no mechanical parts, nobigie... and it doesn't cost obscene amounts to trigger multiple effects for the same action. And you can trap your scabbard, so when you draw your sword as a free action, you trigger all that buffing... so I'd rather pay 500 gold /level/spell level for an infinite free buffing effect. am I off base?
rilem 07-27-06, 01:55 PM	so when you draw your sword as a free action, you trigger all that buffing... Drawing a weapon is a move action (or may be combined with a move action) barring the quick-draw feat, but your point is still valid.
fil kearney 07-27-06, 02:26 PM	Drawing a weapon is a move action (or may be combined with a move action) barring the quick-draw feat, but your point is still valid. well, yeah. I just assumed a true strike effect for an iajitsu master using power attack or whatever. for a feat, free action is alwasy better than move... but yer right I should have been specific in my wording.
ronyon 07-27-06, 02:43 PM	I think CharOp types ignor this 'cause it comes broken as designed. Weres the fun in that? Seriously, I myself ignore Divine Metamagic cheese, cause its to damn easy(and done to death), and Traps are even easier. There are other ways to break the magic item cost structure(runecasters/Demon Possesed Items), but all of them pale in comparision to the ease and low cost of the PC molested magical trap. Frankly, the trap rules should be DM only, or at least DM fiat only, for balance sake. Yes, there should be provisions for PCs to build traps, but as they stand, giving players their heads with the trap rules will distort the game considerably.
kilroo 07-27-06, 03:11 PM	As awesome as this idea is I think I might have to agree, otherwise I would consider one of the best items for a party to have to be...I think I'd make it a child's toy...how about a trapped yo-yo of lesser vigor? Say goodbye to the expense of out-of-combat healing, say hello to looking like a bunch of crazy people while you do it. ...I am so gonna try to sneak that by a DM.
Mystic Ninja 07-27-06, 03:29 PM	As awesome as this idea is I think I might have to agree, otherwise I would consider one of the best items for a party to have to be...I think I'd make it a child's toy...how about a trapped yo-yo of lesser vigor? Say goodbye to the expense of out-of-combat healing, say hello to looking like a bunch of crazy people while you do it. ...I am so gonna try to sneak that by a DM. You know, make it Cure Minor Wounds in the yo-yo. Everytime you use it you heal a hitpoint. It also costs 250gp [eg. first level with mercantile background to buy it].
Lt_Col_Pilgrim 07-27-06, 04:15 PM	Trap your Quiver of Elhonna ... trap your Handy Haversack. The smart thing to do would make the prices in-line with a multi-use wonderous item ... then it wouldn't be a problem.
fil kearney 07-27-06, 04:33 PM	Trap your Quiver of Elhonna ... trap your Handy Haversack. The smart thing to do would make the prices in-line with a multi-use wonderous item ... then it wouldn't be a problem. okay so the cost is broken... but since this a viable way to effectively activate effects with move, or sometimes free, actions-- what would be a legitimate cost to utilize them that isn't unbalancing? basically, what is the monetary value of a move or free action opposed to a standard action to activate? edit... wait, you just mentioned that. BTW... dragon magazine had a suit of armour at some point that when the wearer was hit in combat, a cure spell of crafter's choice would trigger healing the wearer. talk about unbalancing, but hey, if paizo is hip with it, so am I. IIRC, it was padded armour of healing light wounds for 30k. 5th level caster.
Tyco3110 07-27-06, 05:35 PM	How About putting a Trap on a Weapon The Trap being a Cure Spell - Hit a undead with it for some fun
Lt_Col_Pilgrim 07-27-06, 05:50 PM	I think as "traps" they are probably priced right. As "buffs" they aren't. You'd need to price them as wonderous items and add the "multiple things on single item" adder. I also would change what "could" be trapped. Pressure plate on the floor that triggers inflict or cure? Excellent! Trapping the middle finger on your gauntlet so you get healed when you salute ... no. Doesn't the fire trap spell have a restricted list of trappable objects?
GDarius 07-27-06, 05:55 PM	How About putting a Trap on a Weapon The Trap being a Cure Spell - Hit a undead with it for some fun The Healing Shiv lives!
Tyco3110 07-27-06, 05:59 PM	Or have a Gaunlet with the Cure Light Wounds Spell Trap, and have the Trigger condention of Touch and Detect Undead, so the trap only works against undead
fil kearney 07-27-06, 07:22 PM	I think as "traps" they are probably priced right. As "buffs" they aren't. You'd need to price them as wonderous items and add the "multiple things on single item" adder. sure.. traps are des9igned to be a challenge against the party. This conversation is inevitable Since traps can be activated through move actions, what is the monetary value of a move action compared to a standard action? or a free action? can't potions be drank as move actions? the precedent already exists, but they are single shots like scrolls. we're just looking at how to stack multiple effects, and unlimited use. I also would change what "could" be trapped. Pressure plate on the floor that triggers inflict or cure? Excellent! Trapping the middle finger on your gauntlet so you get healed when you salute ... no. I could see increasing dc's for smaller scale traps, but not banned. Decreasing an entire campaign's engineering capabilities just to prevent abusive rules is not a long term solution. You'd have to do away with locks, tleescopes, clockworks, etc. Instead, what would be a reasonalbe dc increase? 5, perhaps? that is a whopping hit for most low levels, but ridiculously easy at higher levels.. and magic traps are already more difficult dc's, and don't require ANY physical space. I could techincally build a trap that triggers disintegrate on anyone hitting my armour in combat. how about that for an improved robillar's gambit? and it's a malevolent trap, so do the rules stand as is for that? I think these things should be treated as unlimited wondrous items that don't take up body slots requiring a move action to utilize. would that be worth 3000 x caster level x spell level with no stack penalties, or 2500 x c x s with stack penalties? any opinions there? what about cheapening items that require manual resets? reduce the price by 1/5 for every round needed to reset toa max of 5 rounds for 20% cost? finally, another good argument for a familiar! any thoughts?
Lt_Col_Pilgrim 07-27-06, 07:38 PM	Just do it automatic resets but work only x/day. The "trap" trigger would have to be specified. If the trigger were reduced somewhat you could drop the cost (must be on an openable object, etc.) "Being hit with a weapon" ... dunno. That still leaves you with traps you could place on your scabbard clip that you unsnap before you draw your sword, etc. Spellbook with Timestop on the clasp?
fil kearney 07-27-06, 09:04 PM	"Being hit with a weapon" ... dunno. no, seriously. Dragon mag already did it. some argue whether its official wotc or not, but paizo claims that everything they publish is... so that isn't the debate.. I was just bringing it up because of blatant benevolence.
kilroo 07-28-06, 01:27 PM	You know, make it Cure Minor Wounds in the yo-yo. Everytime you use it you heal a hitpoint. It also costs 250gp [eg. first level with mercantile background to buy it]. I have this mental image of a party in which the wizard is in charge of the party funds (don't ask why, I don't know) and is extremely stingy. They're sitting around a campfire...the cleric and the rogue are playing dice (again, don't ask why)...the wizard is studying some obscure tome... and the barbarian keeps playing with the party yo-yo, muttering to himself, "Hunn'd ninet' SEVEN...hunn'd ninet' EIGHT..."
the_taken 07-31-06, 12:52 AM	As awesome as this idea is I think I might have to agree, otherwise I would consider one of the best items for a party to have to be...I think I'd make it a child's toy...how about a trapped yo-yo of lesser vigor? Say goodbye to the expense of out-of-combat healing, say hello to looking like a bunch of crazy people while you do it.You know, make it Cure Minor Wounds in the yo-yo. Everytime you use it you heal a hitpoint. It also costs 250gp [eg. first level with mercantile background to buy it].I have this mental image of a party in which the wizard is in charge of the party funds (don't ask why, I don't know) and is extremely stingy. They're sitting around a campfire...the cleric and the rogue are playing dice (again, don't ask why)...the wizard is studying some obscure tome... and the barbarian keeps playing with the party yo-yo, muttering to himself, "Hunn'd ninet' SEVEN...hunn'd ninet' EIGHT..." :heehee The crunch is broken, but the fluff is oh! so soft and plushy.