building character for Wiz20 Fghtr20 duel [Archive] - Wizards Community

building character for Wiz20 Fghtr20 duel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rtitus24
03-24-04, 10:40 PM A little discussion broke out among my gaming group the other night, and we decided to try a Wizard 20 versus a Fighter 20. I am building the wizard. The ground rules so far are 3.0 core only. Both using humans. These are the rules so far. We haven't yet decided on location of fight yet. We are to submit the character to our DM one day this week and be ready to do it on Saturday. My main concern is I have never played a character at 20th level and the guy running the fighter is quite experienced. I want some advice on building this wizard to blow him away. Oh yea we rolled 4d6 for scores and these are mine before level points added in no particular order 13,1715,15,15,14. Starting wealth as DMG at 760,000. I have some ideas already, but am looking for other perspectives. I think I am going to need a high dex and improved initative because I already know if he goes first I might be screwed. I also am thinking about casting Mordekanien's disjunction first and hopefully depriving him of some of his magic items. Also using haste and timestop to blast him after that. Any better ideas or fresh thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. I know this is highly munchkinized but that is the point, I think the fighter falls behind at higher levels and the other guy swears WOTC would not make an unbalanced class. This is meant to be a test of class ability not actual game usage.
newblar32
03-24-04, 11:32 PM Wiz20 should win hands down...

timestop > fighter

timestop, maze, gate, etc etc...
shamalamastreetman
03-24-04, 11:50 PM Sphere of anihilation!

...just boost yer int! ;)

Imp init and good dex to go first!
rtitus24
03-25-04, 12:14 AM yea I think I should light him up if I win initative, but I am afraid that if he wins it i might be in trouble. I am sure he is going to use a vorpal keen scimitar with improved crit. that could be nasty if he gets a couple of attacks on me.
Lokathor
03-25-04, 12:33 AM ...and the other guy swears WOTC would not make an unbalanced class.

Has the guy... even looked at the Cleric and Druid? Compared to say... the Sorcerer?
LordArkan
03-25-04, 12:37 AM You should take Weapon Prof (Morningstar) to help you beat this dead horse of a debate. :smirk:

How about posting some of the other details? I assume its clearly Wiz 20 and Ftr 20, with no other classes/PrCs involved.

But the important questions involve preparation, the arena, starting locations, etc.
rtitus24
03-25-04, 12:50 AM It is a straight fighter 20 versus wizard 20 no PRCs and the arena and prep issue is not yet resolved. I am going to post it here as soon as I find out. Yes I know this issue has been beat to death, but we thought it would be fun to try it out instead of just arguing it. Oh yea and like I said only core books 3.0
LordArkan
03-25-04, 01:13 AM Gak. Didn't notice the 3.0 part.

If there's any preparation in the hands of experienced players, it comes down to initiative.

Lv20 fighter can fly, see invis/be invis, and be hasted just like the wiz. Hasted action to move up, then full attack, which is almost certain doom for the wizard. Wizard has the advantage because this IS "almost." That's the important part.

Lv20 wizard can haste a timestop to cast forcecage followed by many delayed blast fireballs. Fighter'll likely survive the initial blast, but unless he has some way to get out of the forcecage he's toast anyway.

Interesting stats, but to make things more fair you should probably go with some sort of point buy, to avoid any sort of "You won only because you had better stats" sort of deal.

Put the 17 in Dex, toss a 15 into Int and Con, play a Gray Elf, which will boost you to 19 dex and 17 int. Toss all your stat points into dex, and spend most your money on stat boosting items.

So you should look something like this.
STR 11 (13 base, -2 racial)
DEX 34 (17 base, +2 racial, +4 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement)
CON 20 (15 base, -2 racial, +1 levels, +6 enhancement)
INT 28 (15 base, +2 racial, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement)
WIS 15
CHA 14

I'm tired, so I don't feel like looking up the cost of the component on forcecage, but hopefully you have enough after buying those 5 items.

With improved initiative, though, you get an initiative bonus of +16, which won't be beat in 3.0 core without an 18 base stat.
SpiritGlyph
03-25-04, 01:17 AM The 3.0 Core limitation actually hurts the Fighter a lot more than it does you, actually, given the relatively limited feat selection in the 3.0 PHB. He's going to have 17 feats to throw around if he's not human, and there just aren't that many PHB feats that would be useful against a single Wizard.

Set a Contingency up to Teleport you, say, 1000 ft straight up as soon as the battle begin. After this, you'll have plenty of time to buff yourself and throw 2 long range spells per round at your distant foe, whose only concievable option will be to try and shoot you with arrows. Oh, and if you're feeling cheap, abuse Limited Wish and Wish. After all, you really needn't care about losing XP on a one-time character, should you?
rtitus24
03-25-04, 01:33 AM Thanks for the advice everyone. Here is an idea i just thought of what about just shapechanging into a guargantuan dragon and eating the fighter. Would this work or am I actually hindering myself.
Raging Halfling
03-25-04, 02:21 AM You know, I hate to be the one negative voice here, but this is a really silly way to test game balance. You're making characters for a death match, knowing precisely what you're facing. He will most likely build a fighter with Improved Grapple and high Str/Dex. Both of you will do your best to pump your initiative modifiers sky-high. In the end, it'll end up being rather pointless, as it is just a matter of who rolled higher on the dice and who prepared a better bag of tricks.

It is also really skewed toward the wizard, if only because you can tailor your entire spells prepared list. Unless you set some really strong ground rules on this, it will be quite silly.
rtitus24
03-25-04, 02:32 AM Yea I know this is probably not the best way to test balance, but it is a question everyone asks from time to time. Since we can't get the whole group together to play again till next week it seems like something fun to do. At first I just brought it up because the guy who likes fighters was making fun of another characters rogue calling him weak(not being mean the two are best friends)and I just said that I thought the fighter gets left behind at higher levels and out of that came this little deathmatch. I know the dice are going to rule the outcome and whoever wins the other wont change their opinion, but now that I said all that I really want to kick his fighters butt.:smirk:
Potlok
03-25-04, 03:28 AM In 3.0 Wizards are Really strong compared with the ones from the 3.5, so I think a Fighter lvl 20 has no chance against you.Just use a couple of spells persistent, like blink, mage armor, shield, and whaever you can think off, then just empower, maximize and repeat Magic Missile that doesn't have saving throw, or just dominate him, all Will savings are welcomed for that duel.

I think the only class that can kill a Wizard or can be balanced is the Monk because of the high saving throws... but is all about opinions.

Edit: Just Dimensional Anchor, Force Cage and blast his ass with fireballs
Gorath
03-25-04, 05:23 AM You could agree too make two fights. In each another one of you starts. So you can really see who shines.
Laelenie
03-25-04, 05:46 AM Originally posted by rtitus24
and prep issue is not yet resolved.

with preparation: wizzie wins 100% of the time.

without at 50 feet: wizzie wins 100% of the time

one standing in front of the other with no prep: wizzie wins 70% of the time

Starting grappled : DM's call... can a grappled character cast a quickened spell ? if yes wizzie wins 90 % of the time, if no figther wins.
Laelenie
03-25-04, 05:49 AM Originally posted by Potlok

I think the only class that can kill a Wizard or can be balanced is the Monk because of the high saving throws... but is all about opinions.

Naaahhh... No sr no save spell.

Time Stop and shapechange are just TOO strong.

the only way to kill a wizard is with another wizard or cleric (with time stop) or to caugh him unaware and unprepared.
guarnasco
03-25-04, 06:35 AM Originally posted by Laelenie
Naaahhh... No sr no save spell.

Time Stop and shapechange are just TOO strong.

the only way to kill a wizard is with another wizard or cleric (with time stop) or to caugh him unaware and unprepared.

A rogue of appropriatte skill is going to kill any wiz figthing dirtly (I:E: sneak attakking him in a dusky, crowdy tavern where he could not be sure about who attaked him!)

_____________________________
stasse giochiamo fransis?
Neonsamurai
03-25-04, 08:28 AM As soon as the wizard's gets his first turn in combat, you can consider the fighter dead meat.

Thus the wizzie is going to increase his survivability for the first round. Since it is an arena type of match you can expect some arena specific cheese. For instance i would carry a tower shield for the first round, so i can start with 100% cover to avoid missile attacks and give me better chances to survive the first charge.

Then i would use long term buffs like false life, mage armor and whatnot.

The rest is easy and was told here many times already: timestop, force cage/cloud kill and the whole rest of cheesy spell combos.

This debate comes up every few months over at the rules boards ever since 3.0 came out and imo you should just make up the characters and play a best of 5 match. Repeat ten times and you will see what chances a fighter has in high-level combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rtitus24 03-24-04, 10:40 PM	A little discussion broke out among my gaming group the other night, and we decided to try a Wizard 20 versus a Fighter 20. I am building the wizard. The ground rules so far are 3.0 core only. Both using humans. These are the rules so far. We haven't yet decided on location of fight yet. We are to submit the character to our DM one day this week and be ready to do it on Saturday. My main concern is I have never played a character at 20th level and the guy running the fighter is quite experienced. I want some advice on building this wizard to blow him away. Oh yea we rolled 4d6 for scores and these are mine before level points added in no particular order 13,1715,15,15,14. Starting wealth as DMG at 760,000. I have some ideas already, but am looking for other perspectives. I think I am going to need a high dex and improved initative because I already know if he goes first I might be screwed. I also am thinking about casting Mordekanien's disjunction first and hopefully depriving him of some of his magic items. Also using haste and timestop to blast him after that. Any better ideas or fresh thoughts would be greatly appreciated. P.S. I know this is highly munchkinized but that is the point, I think the fighter falls behind at higher levels and the other guy swears WOTC would not make an unbalanced class. This is meant to be a test of class ability not actual game usage.
newblar32 03-24-04, 11:32 PM	Wiz20 should win hands down... timestop > fighter timestop, maze, gate, etc etc...
shamalamastreetman 03-24-04, 11:50 PM	Sphere of anihilation! ...just boost yer int! ;) Imp init and good dex to go first!
rtitus24 03-25-04, 12:14 AM	yea I think I should light him up if I win initative, but I am afraid that if he wins it i might be in trouble. I am sure he is going to use a vorpal keen scimitar with improved crit. that could be nasty if he gets a couple of attacks on me.
Lokathor 03-25-04, 12:33 AM	...and the other guy swears WOTC would not make an unbalanced class. Has the guy... even looked at the Cleric and Druid? Compared to say... the Sorcerer?
LordArkan 03-25-04, 12:37 AM	You should take Weapon Prof (Morningstar) to help you beat this dead horse of a debate. :smirk: How about posting some of the other details? I assume its clearly Wiz 20 and Ftr 20, with no other classes/PrCs involved. But the important questions involve preparation, the arena, starting locations, etc.
rtitus24 03-25-04, 12:50 AM	It is a straight fighter 20 versus wizard 20 no PRCs and the arena and prep issue is not yet resolved. I am going to post it here as soon as I find out. Yes I know this issue has been beat to death, but we thought it would be fun to try it out instead of just arguing it. Oh yea and like I said only core books 3.0
LordArkan 03-25-04, 01:13 AM	Gak. Didn't notice the 3.0 part. If there's any preparation in the hands of experienced players, it comes down to initiative. Lv20 fighter can fly, see invis/be invis, and be hasted just like the wiz. Hasted action to move up, then full attack, which is almost certain doom for the wizard. Wizard has the advantage because this IS "almost." That's the important part. Lv20 wizard can haste a timestop to cast forcecage followed by many delayed blast fireballs. Fighter'll likely survive the initial blast, but unless he has some way to get out of the forcecage he's toast anyway. Interesting stats, but to make things more fair you should probably go with some sort of point buy, to avoid any sort of "You won only because you had better stats" sort of deal. Put the 17 in Dex, toss a 15 into Int and Con, play a Gray Elf, which will boost you to 19 dex and 17 int. Toss all your stat points into dex, and spend most your money on stat boosting items. So you should look something like this. STR 11 (13 base, -2 racial) DEX 34 (17 base, +2 racial, +4 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement) CON 20 (15 base, -2 racial, +1 levels, +6 enhancement) INT 28 (15 base, +2 racial, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement) WIS 15 CHA 14 I'm tired, so I don't feel like looking up the cost of the component on forcecage, but hopefully you have enough after buying those 5 items. With improved initiative, though, you get an initiative bonus of +16, which won't be beat in 3.0 core without an 18 base stat.
SpiritGlyph 03-25-04, 01:17 AM	The 3.0 Core limitation actually hurts the Fighter a lot more than it does you, actually, given the relatively limited feat selection in the 3.0 PHB. He's going to have 17 feats to throw around if he's not human, and there just aren't that many PHB feats that would be useful against a single Wizard. Set a Contingency up to Teleport you, say, 1000 ft straight up as soon as the battle begin. After this, you'll have plenty of time to buff yourself and throw 2 long range spells per round at your distant foe, whose only concievable option will be to try and shoot you with arrows. Oh, and if you're feeling cheap, abuse Limited Wish and Wish. After all, you really needn't care about losing XP on a one-time character, should you?
rtitus24 03-25-04, 01:33 AM	Thanks for the advice everyone. Here is an idea i just thought of what about just shapechanging into a guargantuan dragon and eating the fighter. Would this work or am I actually hindering myself.
Raging Halfling 03-25-04, 02:21 AM	You know, I hate to be the one negative voice here, but this is a really silly way to test game balance. You're making characters for a death match, knowing precisely what you're facing. He will most likely build a fighter with Improved Grapple and high Str/Dex. Both of you will do your best to pump your initiative modifiers sky-high. In the end, it'll end up being rather pointless, as it is just a matter of who rolled higher on the dice and who prepared a better bag of tricks. It is also really skewed toward the wizard, if only because you can tailor your entire spells prepared list. Unless you set some really strong ground rules on this, it will be quite silly.
rtitus24 03-25-04, 02:32 AM	Yea I know this is probably not the best way to test balance, but it is a question everyone asks from time to time. Since we can't get the whole group together to play again till next week it seems like something fun to do. At first I just brought it up because the guy who likes fighters was making fun of another characters rogue calling him weak(not being mean the two are best friends)and I just said that I thought the fighter gets left behind at higher levels and out of that came this little deathmatch. I know the dice are going to rule the outcome and whoever wins the other wont change their opinion, but now that I said all that I really want to kick his fighters butt.:smirk:
Potlok 03-25-04, 03:28 AM	In 3.0 Wizards are Really strong compared with the ones from the 3.5, so I think a Fighter lvl 20 has no chance against you.Just use a couple of spells persistent, like blink, mage armor, shield, and whaever you can think off, then just empower, maximize and repeat Magic Missile that doesn't have saving throw, or just dominate him, all Will savings are welcomed for that duel. I think the only class that can kill a Wizard or can be balanced is the Monk because of the high saving throws... but is all about opinions. Edit: Just Dimensional Anchor, Force Cage and blast his ass with fireballs
Gorath 03-25-04, 05:23 AM	You could agree too make two fights. In each another one of you starts. So you can really see who shines.
Laelenie 03-25-04, 05:46 AM	Originally posted by rtitus24 and prep issue is not yet resolved. with preparation: wizzie wins 100% of the time. without at 50 feet: wizzie wins 100% of the time one standing in front of the other with no prep: wizzie wins 70% of the time Starting grappled : DM's call... can a grappled character cast a quickened spell ? if yes wizzie wins 90 % of the time, if no figther wins.
Laelenie 03-25-04, 05:49 AM	Originally posted by Potlok I think the only class that can kill a Wizard or can be balanced is the Monk because of the high saving throws... but is all about opinions. Naaahhh... No sr no save spell. Time Stop and shapechange are just TOO strong. the only way to kill a wizard is with another wizard or cleric (with time stop) or to caugh him unaware and unprepared.
guarnasco 03-25-04, 06:35 AM	Originally posted by Laelenie Naaahhh... No sr no save spell. Time Stop and shapechange are just TOO strong. the only way to kill a wizard is with another wizard or cleric (with time stop) or to caugh him unaware and unprepared. A rogue of appropriatte skill is going to kill any wiz figthing dirtly (I:E: sneak attakking him in a dusky, crowdy tavern where he could not be sure about who attaked him!) _____________________________ stasse giochiamo fransis?
Neonsamurai 03-25-04, 08:28 AM	As soon as the wizard's gets his first turn in combat, you can consider the fighter dead meat. Thus the wizzie is going to increase his survivability for the first round. Since it is an arena type of match you can expect some arena specific cheese. For instance i would carry a tower shield for the first round, so i can start with 100% cover to avoid missile attacks and give me better chances to survive the first charge. Then i would use long term buffs like false life, mage armor and whatnot. The rest is easy and was told here many times already: timestop, force cage/cloud kill and the whole rest of cheesy spell combos. This debate comes up every few months over at the rules boards ever since 3.0 came out and imo you should just make up the characters and play a best of 5 match. Repeat ten times and you will see what chances a fighter has in high-level combat.