Building the ultimate scoundrel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building the ultimate scoundrel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RayJ
02-09-07, 04:29 AM I finally got a hold of Complete Scoundrel. While I don't think the book is as good as others in the Complete series, it offers some nice things to help build one of the greatest scoundrels of all time, Indiana Jones. With all these tools I've decided to build a character as close to dear ol' Henry as possible, utilizing any WotC published 3.5 material and the Eberron campaign setting (fits the atmosphere of the Indiana Jones movies), so no FR here.

The build I've started with utilizes the feat rogue to get feats to help round out the abilities and play up the skillfulness of the character. I don't remember Jones using any sneak attack type moves in any of the movies, so this seems to fit really well. Here's what I've got:

Feat Rogue 4 / Master Inquisitive 3 / Fortune's Friend 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 3 (mark of finding) / ??? 2

Right now the plan is to take the levels in that order, and I don't know what I'd finish him off with. Uncanny Trickster would advance Master Inquisitive to pick up an extra bonus feat and true seeing.

Here's the feat progression I'm looking at.

Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip)
Level 3: Investigate
Level 6: Lucky Catch
Level 9: Acrobatic Strike
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Human: Combat Expertise
Rogue 1: Improved Disarm
Rogue 2: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 4:
Inquisitor 2: Heroic Spirit
Inquisitor 4: Research
Fortune 2: Unbelievable Luck
Fortune 4:
Siberys 1: Action Boost
Siberys 2:
Siberys 3:

I have a ton of openings. I'm thinking that grabbing a ton of Luck feats would fit, but this build is quite low on attack bonus, so anything to bring up survivability in combat would be good. The character will mostly rely on luck rerolls, Fortune's Friend class abilities and a ton of action points to pull of his antics.

I'm thinking about going with Elusive Target and maybe Rolibar's Gambit, primarily using the whip to disarm and/or trip the opponent and helping to control the battlefield a bit to let the rest of the party shine in combat while doing the scholarly scoundrel thing myself. A hand crossbow would be the secondary weapon of choice, mimicking the handguns Jones uses throughout the movies.

So any ideas for filling out the rest of the feats and the last 2 levels would be appreciated. I'm also open to some changes in the build class-wise, but I'm pretty confident with what I've chosen so far (other than maybe swapping around when I take levels in the classes)
bungo_underhill
02-09-07, 04:38 AM Maybe including a level of a spell casting class before fortunes friend so that you don't waste its casting advancement.
Also as your using Eberron and trying to build Indiana Jones why are you not using Extreme Explorer? Surely that fits better than master inquisitive and you could use both.
Serrin
02-09-07, 04:38 AM You NEED Whip Climber. Also, perhaps a couple levels in Exotic Weapon Master.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast
02-09-07, 02:44 PM I'd use Ranger rather than feat Rogue, mostly on personal preference. You also need something to get knowledge(history). I'm too lazy to go to my books right now, though, so you may already have it.

I'd probably drop Fortune's Friend, too. It has great flavor, I'm just not sure about the class as a whole.
RayJ
02-09-07, 09:15 PM @Bungo: I could see maybe adding a level of Bard before Fortune's Friend, but I'm not sure about where I'd want to fit it in. Also, the reason I skipped Extreme Explorer is that it doesn't give me anything I don't already have (outside Knowledge (history) which as AWfB points out I do need. I'm looking at how to fit all that in while still keeping at least some master Inquisitve levels. The contacts ability just fits with all the various people Jones works with throughout the movies. I might not be able to keep MI in if I fit in by adding those classes though.

@Serrin: Whip Climber is a skill trick which will indeed be included in the build, but I didn't list any of those above. Exotic Weapon Master doesn't offer much for the build IMO.

@AWfB: I don't think ranger fits the flavor or mechanics of the character all that well. I'm gonna pass. You're right on needing some Knowledge (history) I'm looking into adding a level of Bard and fitting in Extreme Explorer. Adding Able Learner to the build I'll be able to keep ranks up for the multitude of skills that I'll be using. Fortune's Friend just looks to be perfect for the character.

With all that in mind, here's the class breakdown I'd probably choose at level 20:

Feat Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Master Inquisitive 2 / Extreme Explorer 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 2 / Fortune's Friend 5

I'm not sure on the total order of everything, but this will net another bonus feat (Uncanny Trickster can advance Extreme Explorer or Master Inquisitive to get an additional bonus feat from them) A level of Heir of Siberys was dropped to make room for the bard level, but this throws the bonus feats out of whack as it will then advance bardic spellcasting. Makes things a little different.

Extreme Explorer adds even more to the action point bonus giving a total of 12+1/2 character level (for 22 of them at level 20). This plays up to Jones' determination and luck quite a bit.

Bardic Knowledge ties in well, and the few spells the character gets can be played to enhance the feel of the character (Know Direction, Read Magic, Message, and Comprehend Languages in particular)

More feedback is much appreciated. I'd like to solidify the build a bit more so I can have a chance at playing it in a campaign sometime. There's synergy all over the place, but picking what to take at each level looks to be a nightmare.
PhoenixInferno
02-09-07, 10:51 PM You could try using Educated to get Knowledge (History) - he'd have to be pretty darn smart to teach college archaeology.
RayJ
02-10-07, 07:20 PM Great advice PI. It fits the character better than Able Learner, and outside knowledge skills these classes have strikingly similar skill lists anyway. I'm gonna go with that, and use the following class progression, taking the levels in the direct order listed.

Feat Rogue 4 / Master Inquisitive 2 / Fortune's Friend 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 3 / Extreme Explorer 3

Some might like to include Extreme Explorer a lot earlier, but I personally feel those abilities represent a smaller aspect of the character so I am comfortable holding them off. Uncanny Trickster will advance Master Inquisitive as before, but a level of MI was dropped to give us the bonus feat from EE at level 20.

I've selected the following skill tricks for the character (this includes the 3 bonus tricks from Uncanny Trickster)

Social Recovery
Whip Climber
Acrobatic Backstab
Back on Your Feat
Nimble Charge
Speedy Ascent
Slipping Past
Collector of Stories

I've also given Indy a broad range of skills (a lot of skills with 5 ranks to show competence and grant synergy) While Indy specialized in a few areas, he was generally average at most things. Using luck and action points (he has a ton of both) he can achieve the same results as some specialists, but he'd be hard pressed to do so on a consistent basis. Here's how I envision his skills at level 20 with a 14 Intelligence:

Appraise 5
Balance 5
Bluff 20
Climb 5
Decipher Script 10
Diplomacy 5
Disable Device 5
Escape Artist 15
Gather Information 10
Jump 5
Knowledge (architecture) 5
Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5
Knowledge (history) 15
Knowledge (local) 5
Knowledge (religion) 5
Open Lock 5
Perform (oratory) 5
Profession (teacher) 5
Search 10
Sense Motive 10
Swim 5
Tumble 20
Use Magic Device 20
Use Rope 5

If you can convince the DM to allow you to spend 2 action points to gain another use of any of the Fortune's Friend luck abilities, you can be even more competent than usual, though that's a DM call since it's not on this list in ECS (though the UA version of Action Points would let you do this for only a single Action Point)

I've also revamped my feat progression, and made it more complete. While I would love to take Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm earlier than the progession shows, the whip's reach and inherent bonus help to mitigate some of the need for the the feat early on. If flaws were available, I would take two to have these available at level 1. I'm still a little stuck as to the final feats. More Luck feats are still a nice idea, but I've been looking to find some other things that might fit the character better and haven't had any luck yet.
Here's the progression as of now:

Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip)
Human: Educated (history and local)
Rogue 1: Dodge
Rogue 2: Weapon Finesse
Level 3: Investigate
Rogue 4: Mobility
Level 6: Lucky Catch
Inquisitor 2: Heroic Spirit
Fortune 2: Unbelievable Luck
Level 9: Acrobatic Strike
Fortune 4: Better Lucky than Good
Level 12: Elusive Target
Inquisitor 4: Research
Level 15: Combat Expertise
Siberys 1: Action Boost
Siberys 2: Improved Disarm
Siberys 3: ?
Level 18: ?
Explorer 3: Action Surge

So as usual, any more feedback is appreciated. Mostly I'm looking for some feat suggestions, but all advice will be considered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RayJ 02-09-07, 04:29 AM	I finally got a hold of Complete Scoundrel. While I don't think the book is as good as others in the Complete series, it offers some nice things to help build one of the greatest scoundrels of all time, Indiana Jones. With all these tools I've decided to build a character as close to dear ol' Henry as possible, utilizing any WotC published 3.5 material and the Eberron campaign setting (fits the atmosphere of the Indiana Jones movies), so no FR here. The build I've started with utilizes the feat rogue to get feats to help round out the abilities and play up the skillfulness of the character. I don't remember Jones using any sneak attack type moves in any of the movies, so this seems to fit really well. Here's what I've got: Feat Rogue 4 / Master Inquisitive 3 / Fortune's Friend 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 3 (mark of finding) / ??? 2 Right now the plan is to take the levels in that order, and I don't know what I'd finish him off with. Uncanny Trickster would advance Master Inquisitive to pick up an extra bonus feat and true seeing. Here's the feat progression I'm looking at. Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip) Level 3: Investigate Level 6: Lucky Catch Level 9: Acrobatic Strike Level 12: Level 15: Level 18: Human: Combat Expertise Rogue 1: Improved Disarm Rogue 2: Weapon Finesse Rogue 4: Inquisitor 2: Heroic Spirit Inquisitor 4: Research Fortune 2: Unbelievable Luck Fortune 4: Siberys 1: Action Boost Siberys 2: Siberys 3: I have a ton of openings. I'm thinking that grabbing a ton of Luck feats would fit, but this build is quite low on attack bonus, so anything to bring up survivability in combat would be good. The character will mostly rely on luck rerolls, Fortune's Friend class abilities and a ton of action points to pull of his antics. I'm thinking about going with Elusive Target and maybe Rolibar's Gambit, primarily using the whip to disarm and/or trip the opponent and helping to control the battlefield a bit to let the rest of the party shine in combat while doing the scholarly scoundrel thing myself. A hand crossbow would be the secondary weapon of choice, mimicking the handguns Jones uses throughout the movies. So any ideas for filling out the rest of the feats and the last 2 levels would be appreciated. I'm also open to some changes in the build class-wise, but I'm pretty confident with what I've chosen so far (other than maybe swapping around when I take levels in the classes)
bungo_underhill 02-09-07, 04:38 AM	Maybe including a level of a spell casting class before fortunes friend so that you don't waste its casting advancement. Also as your using Eberron and trying to build Indiana Jones why are you not using Extreme Explorer? Surely that fits better than master inquisitive and you could use both.
Serrin 02-09-07, 04:38 AM	You NEED Whip Climber. Also, perhaps a couple levels in Exotic Weapon Master.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 02-09-07, 02:44 PM	I'd use Ranger rather than feat Rogue, mostly on personal preference. You also need something to get knowledge(history). I'm too lazy to go to my books right now, though, so you may already have it. I'd probably drop Fortune's Friend, too. It has great flavor, I'm just not sure about the class as a whole.
RayJ 02-09-07, 09:15 PM	@Bungo: I could see maybe adding a level of Bard before Fortune's Friend, but I'm not sure about where I'd want to fit it in. Also, the reason I skipped Extreme Explorer is that it doesn't give me anything I don't already have (outside Knowledge (history) which as AWfB points out I do need. I'm looking at how to fit all that in while still keeping at least some master Inquisitve levels. The contacts ability just fits with all the various people Jones works with throughout the movies. I might not be able to keep MI in if I fit in by adding those classes though. @Serrin: Whip Climber is a skill trick which will indeed be included in the build, but I didn't list any of those above. Exotic Weapon Master doesn't offer much for the build IMO. @AWfB: I don't think ranger fits the flavor or mechanics of the character all that well. I'm gonna pass. You're right on needing some Knowledge (history) I'm looking into adding a level of Bard and fitting in Extreme Explorer. Adding Able Learner to the build I'll be able to keep ranks up for the multitude of skills that I'll be using. Fortune's Friend just looks to be perfect for the character. With all that in mind, here's the class breakdown I'd probably choose at level 20: Feat Rogue 4 / Bard 1 / Master Inquisitive 2 / Extreme Explorer 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 2 / Fortune's Friend 5 I'm not sure on the total order of everything, but this will net another bonus feat (Uncanny Trickster can advance Extreme Explorer or Master Inquisitive to get an additional bonus feat from them) A level of Heir of Siberys was dropped to make room for the bard level, but this throws the bonus feats out of whack as it will then advance bardic spellcasting. Makes things a little different. Extreme Explorer adds even more to the action point bonus giving a total of 12+1/2 character level (for 22 of them at level 20). This plays up to Jones' determination and luck quite a bit. Bardic Knowledge ties in well, and the few spells the character gets can be played to enhance the feel of the character (Know Direction, Read Magic, Message, and Comprehend Languages in particular) More feedback is much appreciated. I'd like to solidify the build a bit more so I can have a chance at playing it in a campaign sometime. There's synergy all over the place, but picking what to take at each level looks to be a nightmare.
PhoenixInferno 02-09-07, 10:51 PM	You could try using Educated to get Knowledge (History) - he'd have to be pretty darn smart to teach college archaeology.
RayJ 02-10-07, 07:20 PM	Great advice PI. It fits the character better than Able Learner, and outside knowledge skills these classes have strikingly similar skill lists anyway. I'm gonna go with that, and use the following class progression, taking the levels in the direct order listed. Feat Rogue 4 / Master Inquisitive 2 / Fortune's Friend 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Heir of Siberys 3 / Extreme Explorer 3 Some might like to include Extreme Explorer a lot earlier, but I personally feel those abilities represent a smaller aspect of the character so I am comfortable holding them off. Uncanny Trickster will advance Master Inquisitive as before, but a level of MI was dropped to give us the bonus feat from EE at level 20. I've selected the following skill tricks for the character (this includes the 3 bonus tricks from Uncanny Trickster) Social Recovery Whip Climber Acrobatic Backstab Back on Your Feat Nimble Charge Speedy Ascent Slipping Past Collector of Stories I've also given Indy a broad range of skills (a lot of skills with 5 ranks to show competence and grant synergy) While Indy specialized in a few areas, he was generally average at most things. Using luck and action points (he has a ton of both) he can achieve the same results as some specialists, but he'd be hard pressed to do so on a consistent basis. Here's how I envision his skills at level 20 with a 14 Intelligence: Appraise 5 Balance 5 Bluff 20 Climb 5 Decipher Script 10 Diplomacy 5 Disable Device 5 Escape Artist 15 Gather Information 10 Jump 5 Knowledge (architecture) 5 Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 Knowledge (history) 15 Knowledge (local) 5 Knowledge (religion) 5 Open Lock 5 Perform (oratory) 5 Profession (teacher) 5 Search 10 Sense Motive 10 Swim 5 Tumble 20 Use Magic Device 20 Use Rope 5 If you can convince the DM to allow you to spend 2 action points to gain another use of any of the Fortune's Friend luck abilities, you can be even more competent than usual, though that's a DM call since it's not on this list in ECS (though the UA version of Action Points would let you do this for only a single Action Point) I've also revamped my feat progression, and made it more complete. While I would love to take Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm earlier than the progession shows, the whip's reach and inherent bonus help to mitigate some of the need for the the feat early on. If flaws were available, I would take two to have these available at level 1. I'm still a little stuck as to the final feats. More Luck feats are still a nice idea, but I've been looking to find some other things that might fit the character better and haven't had any luck yet. Here's the progression as of now: Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip) Human: Educated (history and local) Rogue 1: Dodge Rogue 2: Weapon Finesse Level 3: Investigate Rogue 4: Mobility Level 6: Lucky Catch Inquisitor 2: Heroic Spirit Fortune 2: Unbelievable Luck Level 9: Acrobatic Strike Fortune 4: Better Lucky than Good Level 12: Elusive Target Inquisitor 4: Research Level 15: Combat Expertise Siberys 1: Action Boost Siberys 2: Improved Disarm Siberys 3: ? Level 18: ? Explorer 3: Action Surge So as usual, any more feedback is appreciated. Mostly I'm looking for some feat suggestions, but all advice will be considered.