CA Silliness and Gestalt Game-Breakers [Archive] - Wizards Community

CA Silliness and Gestalt Game-Breakers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Althor Enchantor
11-21-04, 11:55 PM Just saw the Complete Arcane for the first time, and both Warlocks and Warmages jumped out at me immediately as being abusable. Two basic builds follow, followed by their game-breaking Gestalt counterparts:

Build 1: Rogue + Warlock.
Easiest build in the world would be a Halfling (or maybe even a Human or a Tiefling) Rogue19/Warlock1. Everyone says the 20th level of Rogue is useless anyway, so why not take a 1 level dip into a class that gives you the ability to fire off a 1d6 bolt of pure energy as a ranged touch attack, with no save, at will, and in light armor. Ranged Touch attacks, as we all know, are incredibly easy to hit with and can be combined with a Sneak Attack. Pure energy means that it bypasses energy resistance of any sort, and usable in light armor is fantastic since, as a Rogue, you probably weren't going to be using Full Plate anyway. It's unfortunate that Bucklers still give a chance for ASF, but you can just get a Mithril one, and problem solved. The only real tricky thing would be dealing with creatures with SR, but you could easily take feats like Practiced Spellcaster, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and Arcane Mastery to help you cope. You still get one other Least Invocation to choose from, and I'd go with either Eldritch Spear (for the extra range), Darkness (to effectively give you Hide in Plain Sight as you create your own hiding place), or the Devil's Sight (to let you see through the magical darkness you made with, say, your spell-like ability for being a Tiefling). Alternatively, taking 4 levels of Warlock would work well, too, as you could get all three of the afore-mentioned invocations (the latter two of which synergize quite well), as well as the utility of Detect Magic at will, and extra d6 of Eldritch Blast damage, DR 1/Cold Iron, and Skill Mastery for UMD. Gives Arcane Trickster a bit of a run for its money.

Build 1 Gestalt Version: RogueWarlock20 is pretty solid in and of itself. You end up with all kinds of crazy abilities, including the ability to craft your own magic items, fly, gain bonuses to some of your favorite skills, dispel magic, create zombies and skeletons, gain the effects of Foresight, make yourself Invisible, and sneak attack at will with a ranged touch attack that either deals 19d6 pure energy damage (subject to SR) or 19d6 acid damage (NOT subject to SR, and lingering for several rounds). Blows Arcane Trickster away.

Build 2: Warmage + Eldritch Master (an old PrC from Dragon Magazine).
One of the abilities of the Eldritch Master PrC (which it gets twice, once each at 4th and 8th level in the PrC) adds all the spells on another class's class list to your own class list. Normally, since only spontaneous casters can take the PrC, this has never been ALL that powerful, since the character still needs to learn the spells, which he can't do all that quickly. A Warmage, however, is a spontaneous caster who, quote, "...automatically knows all the spells... on the Warmage's class list." (CA p.12). So, a Warmage could easily take 4 levels of Eldritch Master (which doesn't give +1 effective level of casting, by the way) and end up with the ability to spontaneously cast every single spell of up to 8th level on both the Warmage and either the Wizard or Cleric class lists, and can do so in Full Plate (you DID take Battle Caster, right?). Gives either Mystic Theurge or Wizard a run for their money.

Build 2 Gestalt Version:
WarmagePaladin5/WarmageEldritchMaster8/WarmageDragonDisciple3/ArchmageFighter4.
Your spells known include every single spell on the Warmage, Cleric, and Wizard class lists. You can cast roughly as many spells per day as a Sorcerer, in the manner of a Sorcerer. You can cast any of these spells while wearing Adamantine Full Plate and carrying a Light Shield without penalty. You possess four counts of Archmage High Arcana, which, due to the bonus spells gained from Eldritch Master and Dragon Disciple, you essentially got for free. You have a BAB of +15, and have gained 3 Fighter bonus feats, many bonus Metamagic Feats, and all of the juiciest Paladin abilities, including Cha to saves, immunity to Fear and Disease, and the ability to lay on hands for five times your astronomical Cha bonus in hp per day. You are unstoppable. Blows Mystic Theurge, and indeed, all spellcasters, away.
Furry Rodent
11-22-04, 12:16 AM Gestalt is just silly in any case, and this is another excellent example; the Warlock on it's own is quite nicely balanced. But when you throw in heaps of SAD and the like, it gets downright disgusting. Heck Warlock-Anything is pretty bad ass; There isn't a class I know that can't benefit from Flying and Invisibility at will, and only a few don't fully appreciate the option for an easy ranged touch blast. Just look at a Warlock/Insert-fighter-build; now the traditionaly late-game decline of melee power is greatly reduced with the help of the at will abilities.
Funny Slaughter
11-22-04, 06:21 AM a DM should be aware that a gestalt-came can have the result of single players wielding the power of three characters but i dont see the warlock as increadibly broken in such a game. combining an arcane caster with a druid is much worse in this case imo...

gs
Funny
Interested2
11-22-04, 06:51 AM It gets worse....IF you can find a way to get 9th level wizard spells onto the warlocks list.

"A warlocks invocations are Spell-Like Abilities." That means no XP cost. Wish comes to mind.
Blade2718
11-22-04, 09:19 AM The best part of being a paladin is abusing the high Charisma (with Divine Might in particular).
Neonsamurai
11-22-04, 09:39 AM The best part of being a paladin is abusing the high Charisma (with Divine Might in particular).
:rofl:
Althor Enchantor
11-22-04, 11:01 AM Okay. Right. Warlock. Yes, but... did you not see the Warmage builds? That Gestalt Warmage build is quite possibly the crowning achievement of my entire min/maxing career! You're a Sorcerer! Who can cast every single Wizard and Cleric spell in the game! You can cast spells in Heavy Armor! These abilities ALONE make the build incredibly powerful, but then there's MORE! Can you not see it? Heck, I can almost TASTE it! The Power! My GOD, the POWER! IT'S THE ONLY TIME I TRULY FEEL ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!
Jandor1
11-22-04, 12:44 PM ...
Furry Rodent
11-22-04, 03:31 PM No offense, but your 'crowning achievement' will be pushed aside by most board regulars if only because it relys heavily on a PrC that is from Dragon. Not that Dragon always breaks stuff, but it's very typical of them, and this seems to be an excellent example.

Just for kicks, take a look at a Warlock20-Fighter1/Soulknife19. Now think of what someone can do when they are imbuing their mindblade with the extra damage they usually can, and then add in the damage of the Eldritch Blast via Hideous Blow. Throw that little knife, and watch the pretty explosions. :) Heck, go as far to make this character Vow of Poverty and suddenly you have the most self-sufficient character in the game. He has a buttload of abilities at will, has no need to worry about weaponry, and has an AC that will shame most tanks. :)
catharz
11-22-04, 06:38 PM No offense, but your 'crowning achievement' will be pushed aside by most board regulars if only because it relys heavily on a PrC that is from Dragon. Not that Dragon always breaks stuff, but it's very typical of them, and this seems to be an excellent example.

So, you're talking about Complete Arcane and you're worried about Dragon being broken?
HA HA HA!
Furry Rodent
11-22-04, 06:50 PM Nice one, Catharz. :) However, you and I both know there is a difference between 'RAW Broken' and '3rd Party Broken' on these boards. I mean, there is strong encouragement towards seeing how broken one can make a Hulking Hurler or an Ur-Priest, but generally when Dragon or Mongoose Publishing is brought up, they are dismissed without a second thought. The only time Dragon is ever taken as good is if it's a preview for an upcoming book, and even then there are those who are shaky to accept it. However, you did make your point well enough; Complete Arcane has some pretty munchy stuff in it. My question is, are you of the opinion that the Warlock is broken? I'm in the camp that says it's just another Mystic Theurge or (back in 3.0 release) Monk; it looks awfully nice at first glance, but in play is nicely balanced.
preXus
11-22-04, 08:46 PM Why not simply go with the Artificer 20 / Warlock 20? Any items you can think about crafting + the warlock yummy stuff.
Sakris
11-23-04, 03:44 AM Could you post the warmage build for me?
Jeremymc
11-23-04, 08:21 AM No way. If you're going to go Gestalt, go Gestalt all the way in the stupidest way possible.

Like being a Human Gestalt Fighter/Fighter 20 with 30 FEATS!
Todd
11-23-04, 08:38 AM Could you post the warmage build for me?

He already did.

Build 2: Warmage + Eldritch Master (an old PrC from Dragon Magazine).
One of the abilities of the Eldritch Master PrC (which it gets twice, once each at 4th and 8th level in the PrC) adds all the spells on another class's class list to your own class list. Normally, since only spontaneous casters can take the PrC, this has never been ALL that powerful, since the character still needs to learn the spells, which he can't do all that quickly. A Warmage, however, is a spontaneous caster who, quote, "...automatically knows all the spells... on the Warmage's class list." (CA p.12). So, a Warmage could easily take 4 levels of Eldritch Master (which doesn't give +1 effective level of casting, by the way) and end up with the ability to spontaneously cast every single spell of up to 8th level on both the Warmage and either the Wizard or Cleric class lists, and can do so in Full Plate (you DID take Battle Caster, right?). Gives either Mystic Theurge or Wizard a run for their money.

Note that this is nearly possible without Dragon mag classes as well. The following probably gets all cleric spells in addition to War Mage.

War Mage / Rainbow Serpent (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=341546)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Althor Enchantor 11-21-04, 11:55 PM	Just saw the Complete Arcane for the first time, and both Warlocks and Warmages jumped out at me immediately as being abusable. Two basic builds follow, followed by their game-breaking Gestalt counterparts: Build 1: Rogue + Warlock. Easiest build in the world would be a Halfling (or maybe even a Human or a Tiefling) Rogue19/Warlock1. Everyone says the 20th level of Rogue is useless anyway, so why not take a 1 level dip into a class that gives you the ability to fire off a 1d6 bolt of pure energy as a ranged touch attack, with no save, at will, and in light armor. Ranged Touch attacks, as we all know, are incredibly easy to hit with and can be combined with a Sneak Attack. Pure energy means that it bypasses energy resistance of any sort, and usable in light armor is fantastic since, as a Rogue, you probably weren't going to be using Full Plate anyway. It's unfortunate that Bucklers still give a chance for ASF, but you can just get a Mithril one, and problem solved. The only real tricky thing would be dealing with creatures with SR, but you could easily take feats like Practiced Spellcaster, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and Arcane Mastery to help you cope. You still get one other Least Invocation to choose from, and I'd go with either Eldritch Spear (for the extra range), Darkness (to effectively give you Hide in Plain Sight as you create your own hiding place), or the Devil's Sight (to let you see through the magical darkness you made with, say, your spell-like ability for being a Tiefling). Alternatively, taking 4 levels of Warlock would work well, too, as you could get all three of the afore-mentioned invocations (the latter two of which synergize quite well), as well as the utility of Detect Magic at will, and extra d6 of Eldritch Blast damage, DR 1/Cold Iron, and Skill Mastery for UMD. Gives Arcane Trickster a bit of a run for its money. Build 1 Gestalt Version: RogueWarlock20 is pretty solid in and of itself. You end up with all kinds of crazy abilities, including the ability to craft your own magic items, fly, gain bonuses to some of your favorite skills, dispel magic, create zombies and skeletons, gain the effects of Foresight, make yourself Invisible, and sneak attack at will with a ranged touch attack that either deals 19d6 pure energy damage (subject to SR) or 19d6 acid damage (NOT subject to SR, and lingering for several rounds). Blows Arcane Trickster away. Build 2: Warmage + Eldritch Master (an old PrC from Dragon Magazine). One of the abilities of the Eldritch Master PrC (which it gets twice, once each at 4th and 8th level in the PrC) adds all the spells on another class's class list to your own class list. Normally, since only spontaneous casters can take the PrC, this has never been ALL that powerful, since the character still needs to learn the spells, which he can't do all that quickly. A Warmage, however, is a spontaneous caster who, quote, "...automatically knows all the spells... on the Warmage's class list." (CA p.12). So, a Warmage could easily take 4 levels of Eldritch Master (which doesn't give +1 effective level of casting, by the way) and end up with the ability to spontaneously cast every single spell of up to 8th level on both the Warmage and either the Wizard or Cleric class lists, and can do so in Full Plate (you DID take Battle Caster, right?). Gives either Mystic Theurge or Wizard a run for their money. Build 2 Gestalt Version: WarmagePaladin5/WarmageEldritchMaster8/WarmageDragonDisciple3/ArchmageFighter4. Your spells known include every single spell on the Warmage, Cleric, and Wizard class lists. You can cast roughly as many spells per day as a Sorcerer, in the manner of a Sorcerer. You can cast any of these spells while wearing Adamantine Full Plate and carrying a Light Shield without penalty. You possess four counts of Archmage High Arcana, which, due to the bonus spells gained from Eldritch Master and Dragon Disciple, you essentially got for free. You have a BAB of +15, and have gained 3 Fighter bonus feats, many bonus Metamagic Feats, and all of the juiciest Paladin abilities, including Cha to saves, immunity to Fear and Disease, and the ability to lay on hands for five times your astronomical Cha bonus in hp per day. You are unstoppable. Blows Mystic Theurge, and indeed, all spellcasters, away.
Furry Rodent 11-22-04, 12:16 AM	Gestalt is just silly in any case, and this is another excellent example; the Warlock on it's own is quite nicely balanced. But when you throw in heaps of SAD and the like, it gets downright disgusting. Heck Warlock-Anything is pretty bad ass; There isn't a class I know that can't benefit from Flying and Invisibility at will, and only a few don't fully appreciate the option for an easy ranged touch blast. Just look at a Warlock/Insert-fighter-build; now the traditionaly late-game decline of melee power is greatly reduced with the help of the at will abilities.
Funny Slaughter 11-22-04, 06:21 AM	a DM should be aware that a gestalt-came can have the result of single players wielding the power of three characters but i dont see the warlock as increadibly broken in such a game. combining an arcane caster with a druid is much worse in this case imo... gs Funny
Interested2 11-22-04, 06:51 AM	It gets worse....IF you can find a way to get 9th level wizard spells onto the warlocks list. "A warlocks invocations are Spell-Like Abilities." That means no XP cost. Wish comes to mind.
Blade2718 11-22-04, 09:19 AM	The best part of being a paladin is abusing the high Charisma (with Divine Might in particular).
Neonsamurai 11-22-04, 09:39 AM	The best part of being a paladin is abusing the high Charisma (with Divine Might in particular). :rofl:
Althor Enchantor 11-22-04, 11:01 AM	Okay. Right. Warlock. Yes, but... did you not see the Warmage builds? That Gestalt Warmage build is quite possibly the crowning achievement of my entire min/maxing career! You're a Sorcerer! Who can cast every single Wizard and Cleric spell in the game! You can cast spells in Heavy Armor! These abilities ALONE make the build incredibly powerful, but then there's MORE! Can you not see it? Heck, I can almost TASTE it! The Power! My GOD, the POWER! IT'S THE ONLY TIME I TRULY FEEL ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!
Jandor1 11-22-04, 12:44 PM	...
Furry Rodent 11-22-04, 03:31 PM	No offense, but your 'crowning achievement' will be pushed aside by most board regulars if only because it relys heavily on a PrC that is from Dragon. Not that Dragon always breaks stuff, but it's very typical of them, and this seems to be an excellent example. Just for kicks, take a look at a Warlock20-Fighter1/Soulknife19. Now think of what someone can do when they are imbuing their mindblade with the extra damage they usually can, and then add in the damage of the Eldritch Blast via Hideous Blow. Throw that little knife, and watch the pretty explosions. :) Heck, go as far to make this character Vow of Poverty and suddenly you have the most self-sufficient character in the game. He has a buttload of abilities at will, has no need to worry about weaponry, and has an AC that will shame most tanks. :)
catharz 11-22-04, 06:38 PM	No offense, but your 'crowning achievement' will be pushed aside by most board regulars if only because it relys heavily on a PrC that is from Dragon. Not that Dragon always breaks stuff, but it's very typical of them, and this seems to be an excellent example. So, you're talking about Complete Arcane and you're worried about Dragon being broken? HA HA HA!
Furry Rodent 11-22-04, 06:50 PM	Nice one, Catharz. :) However, you and I both know there is a difference between 'RAW Broken' and '3rd Party Broken' on these boards. I mean, there is strong encouragement towards seeing how broken one can make a Hulking Hurler or an Ur-Priest, but generally when Dragon or Mongoose Publishing is brought up, they are dismissed without a second thought. The only time Dragon is ever taken as good is if it's a preview for an upcoming book, and even then there are those who are shaky to accept it. However, you did make your point well enough; Complete Arcane has some pretty munchy stuff in it. My question is, are you of the opinion that the Warlock is broken? I'm in the camp that says it's just another Mystic Theurge or (back in 3.0 release) Monk; it looks awfully nice at first glance, but in play is nicely balanced.
preXus 11-22-04, 08:46 PM	Why not simply go with the Artificer 20 / Warlock 20? Any items you can think about crafting + the warlock yummy stuff.
Sakris 11-23-04, 03:44 AM	Could you post the warmage build for me?
Jeremymc 11-23-04, 08:21 AM	No way. If you're going to go Gestalt, go Gestalt all the way in the stupidest way possible. Like being a Human Gestalt Fighter/Fighter 20 with 30 FEATS!
Todd 11-23-04, 08:38 AM	Could you post the warmage build for me? He already did. Build 2: Warmage + Eldritch Master (an old PrC from Dragon Magazine). One of the abilities of the Eldritch Master PrC (which it gets twice, once each at 4th and 8th level in the PrC) adds all the spells on another class's class list to your own class list. Normally, since only spontaneous casters can take the PrC, this has never been ALL that powerful, since the character still needs to learn the spells, which he can't do all that quickly. A Warmage, however, is a spontaneous caster who, quote, "...automatically knows all the spells... on the Warmage's class list." (CA p.12). So, a Warmage could easily take 4 levels of Eldritch Master (which doesn't give +1 effective level of casting, by the way) and end up with the ability to spontaneously cast every single spell of up to 8th level on both the Warmage and either the Wizard or Cleric class lists, and can do so in Full Plate (you DID take Battle Caster, right?). Gives either Mystic Theurge or Wizard a run for their money. Note that this is nearly possible without Dragon mag classes as well. The following probably gets all cleric spells in addition to War Mage. War Mage / Rainbow Serpent (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=341546)