Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rod Howard 11-27-05, 03:01 PM	Howdy. Today I was looking at my good old D&D books, and I was very intrigued by the Cabinet Trickster. I've been always intrigued by the charming Changeling race: unlike many other races that give major bonuses to certain stats or some other very technical advantage, they immediately gain a cool, balanced power. They can lead to interesting roleplaying situations and be effective characters for many, different possible builds, because they are very similar to humans. The Cabinet Trickster takes the standard Changeling abilites and makes them go overdrive, gradually, so that they can be effective and interesting as soon as you enter the PrC. Let's take a look at their PROs and CONs: PROs: - It has only five levels, so all of its abilities can be fit in the desired build without loosing too many levels. - Low requirements (9 ranks in Disguise, which isn't a class skill for too many classes, but can be obtained in many ways; 1 feat, which can be very useful; one roleplaying condition). - Fair skills list and a good number of skill points per level. - Two high saves (Ref and Will). - Gradually gains the Supernatural ability to detect thoughts. Unlike most Supernatural class features that are left there just to become useless or too inconsistent in their number of daily uses, this one improves as you gain levels in the Cabinet Trickster class. Ultimately, it can be used at will with some additional effects. - A good bonus to three skills (Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive). - Thought Tricks (a wide array of harmful effects). - Two bonus feats linked to the nature of your Changeling abilities. - Change Shape... you can now assume the form of any humanoid medium or small creature, gaining its size, movement modes, natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks. - Good sinergy with the Mindspy PrC CONs: - Low Fort save. - Medium BaB. - The DC for the saving throws made against Thought Tricks aren't very high (10 + Cabinet Trickster level + Cha modifier) - The class isn't very versatile in terms of optimizations, so it can't be used to be the core of many different builds. Sure, you can take the full progression and fit it almost anywhere, but you can hardly specifically exploit the prestige class to create many otherwise impossible builds. I'm currently working on a cool Cabinet Trickster / Mindspy build that focuses mainly on the Disrupt ability... anyone has already tried to develop an effective Cabinet Trickster character and wants to share it?
Aramas 11-27-05, 04:22 PM	I've got two... one is more legal than the other. Rokugan Ninja 4th / Warshaper 4th / Chameleon 2nd / Cabinet Trickster 5th / Mindspy 5th This is the less legal build, because the Rokugan Ninja is a 3rd party 3.0 class. That said, it is often included in builds on this board. If the Rokugan Ninja isn't allowed (I suspect it most likely will not be), then Rogue 6th / Warshaper 4th / Cabinet Trickster 5th / Mindspy 5th If you really wanted, you could exchange 2 levels of Warshaper for 2 levels of Chameleon in this build.
Spellbinded 11-27-05, 05:30 PM	I think you'll find a lot of builds that take advantage of Cabinet Trickster to qualify for Mindspy, which is otherwise a frustrating class to gain entry to. That said, here's my contribution to the compendium. Hexblade 4/Warshaper 4/Mindbender 2/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 I like this build for a couple of reasons. Firstly, mettle is good stuff (Fort actually ends up being the second highest save, behind will, here, so making them more potent in saving is a wonderful benefit) Grab an improved familiar (imp) after a practiced spellcaster feat, and have a familiar who can shapeshift almost as well as you (though more limitedly). Sneaky ++ Mindbender levels allow access to the Mindsight feat, which is a lovely bit of gravy. You're proficient with all martial weapons, in case you don't want to rely on claws and teeth and whatnot.
Iaimeki 11-27-05, 09:44 PM	Mindbender levels allow access to the Mindsight feat, which is a lovely bit of gravy. Where is Mindsight from?
Mistwell 11-27-05, 10:03 PM	Where is Mindsight from? Lords of Madness. Let's you detect general location, type, and intelligence of creatures within the range of your telepathy ability. WOTC custserv also confirmed that the Mindbender telepathy ability does qualify you for the Mindsight feat. However, I see no reason to take Mindbender for two levels. One level is fine.
Random Sasquatch 11-27-05, 10:14 PM	This build is simple, but a very effective spy. Changeling Rogue5CabinetTrickster5Chameleon10 The Sass __________________________________
Aramas 11-27-05, 11:02 PM	However, I see no reason to take Mindbender for two levels. One level is fine. The 2nd level grants you +1 BAB and +1 to Fort and Will saves. That's probably better than any of the alternatives. Suggestion 1 / day isn't bad either. Most people don't take the 2nd level of Mindbender because they don't want to lose a caster level, but this character isn't really a caster anyway.
DavidWL 11-28-05, 01:15 AM	I *love* the classes flavor, but from a power point of view it is only "ok". Part of the problem is the saves for the mindreading and mindreading tricks -- they just don't get very high.
Worguron 11-28-05, 02:50 AM	Always remember that there is a handy little feat to help with your Save DC's on such things: Ability Focus. With Ability Focus, the DC on your saves as a 5th level Cabinet Trickster would be 17+Cha (not too shabby for five levels in a prestige class), and when coupled with some levels of Mindspy you can become a force to be reckoned with in that regard. A good RP character for this (I know this is the optimization board, but oh well) would be Bard or Rogue 5/Spymaster 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5. Such a character would not only be decent in a fight, but would also be one of the ultimate face characters. With a high charisma, this build would be a lot of fun to play in a Social/RP based campaign.
CanineLord 11-28-05, 07:29 AM	Hexblade's Curse also helps with the saves. If you don't mind ditching Mindbender, you could go UA Evil Paladin 3/Hexblade 3/Warshaper 4/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 (though not, necessarily, in that order) I forget if it's the Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter, but level three grants an Aura of Dispair, which hits all foes within range with a -2 penalty to saves.
Rod Howard 11-28-05, 11:51 AM	I surely thought about Ability Focus as one of the first feats to take for Thought Tricks. Even with it, the saves are still somewhat low, which is really a pity, since tricks like Stun and Disrupt are really fantastic. The build I came to think of is: Fighter (or Hexblade) 2 / Rogue 4 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4 - or - Hexblade 3 (or 4) / Rogue 3 (or 2) / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4 It is very simple, it gains access to the Cabinet Trickster PrC by loosing just one point of BaB and it has all of the advantages of the full Cabinet Trickster / Mindspy combo (Anticipate is great since you focus on Cha, Combat Telepathy allows you to mantain easly Detect Thoughts without wasting time or actions, Spherical Detect Thoughts is simply great, allowing you to detect thoughts in a 60ft sphere, Multiple Surface Thoughts allows you to monitor two different creatures simultaneously, switching thought tricks between them as you need and Instant Mindscan is simply gorgeous). Then, you get the benefit of four Warshaper levels, so that you can generate natural weapons, heal yourself consistently in out of combat siutations, you gain reach, two good stat bonuses and the immunity to crits and stuns. The final BaB is 16, so you even manage to keep four attacks per round. If you take those Hexblade levels, depending on how many you pick, your BaB remains the same, but you gain Arcane Resistance (perfect Cha sinergy), Mettle (Mettle + Evasion, coupled with Arcane Resistance, is simply great), and a Familiar (possibly an Improved Familiar, which is cool). You loose proficiency with medium and heavy armor, and two feats, which is bad. Sure, it's not as damaging or a good tank as most, standard melee builds, but you gain a fair share of interesting abilities that give you a good amount of crowd control and versatility. I mean, most melee characters won't pass those Will saves, so even if they deal and sustain more damage than you, where's the problem?
Spellbinded 11-28-05, 01:28 PM	The 2nd level grants you +1 BAB and +1 to Fort and Will saves. That's probably better than any of the alternatives. Suggestion 1 / day isn't bad either. Most people don't take the 2nd level of Mindbender because they don't want to lose a caster level, but this character isn't really a caster anyway. Aramas is exactly right. The second level of mindbender was really better then any of the alternatives...I built the character wanting to get 4 attacks, so it was either that or Hexblade, and Hexblade 5 isn't anything impressive. The second Mindbender level does, though, give you a base attack, an increase to Fort and Will (as opposed to the nothing from Hexblade), a better range of skills to choose from, and Suggestion 1/day. Also, the +1 to four skills doesn't hurt. As Aramas said, casting wasn't really a focus for a character, in fact, I only took 4 levels of Hexblade to qualify for Mindbender (they get Charm Person as a 1st level spell). The feats are actually incredibly open - I like dropping two on Practiced Spellcaster and an Improved Familiar, but you can just as easily focus on a particular fighting style like power attacking (in fact, it's probably more optimised to do so.) As far as I recall, there's only 1 (maybe two) feats that are requirements for anything, so you can do whatever you want, practically.
Fingers Boggis 11-28-05, 01:31 PM	The build I came to think of is: Fighter (or Hexblade) 2 / Rogue 4 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4 - or - Hexblade 3 (or 4) / Rogue 3 (or 2) / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4 Sure, it's not as damaging or a good tank as most, standard melee builds, but you gain a fair share of interesting abilities that give you a good amount of crowd control and versatility. I mean, most melee characters won't pass those Will saves, so even if they deal and sustain more damage than you, where's the problem? Ive used swashbuckler 3 before in the start of the build but i quite like the cha synergy from hexblade and the mettle evasion combo is always nice. I wouldn't think of this character as being anywhere near the tank of the party rather he would play the social/combat rogue. This does mean however that you need to find someone else to pick up the trapfinding (giving the tank a few rogue levels isnt necessarily a bad think, bit of extra sneak attack damage) as those racial sub levels are just too tempting Fingers
Effling 11-28-05, 01:48 PM	With Aura of Despair, Ability Focus and Hexblade's Curse, the effective save DC becomes 21+Cha - not too shabby. If your DM lets it swing, a DC-boosting item like Ki Straps from Sword & Fist (+5 to Stunning Fist DC) would kick ass. Is there any way to make the thought tricks affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects, other than a custom feat in the spirit of Music of the Gods?
Tweedledope 11-28-05, 02:44 PM	The only way I know to even possibly make this work is to customize the Dread Witch PrC from Heroes of Horror. It allows the Dread Witch to cause fear in opponents who are otherwise immune to it (IE, a Paladin). You could possibly see if your DM would allow you to use that class as a template and build around it on Mind-Affecting. However, I would be hardpressed to allow a player to affect the mind of an Undead, Construct, Plant or an Ooze. They are immune to mind-affectings for one reason, they have no mind. -=TD=-
FromTheShadows 11-28-05, 03:18 PM	The only way I know to even possibly make this work is to customize the Dread Witch PrC from Heroes of Horror. It allows the Dread Witch to cause fear in opponents who are otherwise immune to it (IE, a Paladin). You could possibly see if your DM would allow you to use that class as a template and build around it on Mind-Affecting. I know you're only mentioning it as the start of a variant, but the other problem is with the Dread Witch's ability itself: In additon, your fear spells can affect individuals normally immune to fear ... Also helping the spells only argument is a clarification in a supernatural ability the Dread Witch gets a level later, which mentions two different uses; one that allows fear immunity, and another that doesn't if you touch an opponent: This touch attack, unlike the standard aura, ... can even affect individuals normally immune to fear. Of course, since you're retooling your own version, that probably doesn't matter, but just remember that you'd have to alter this ability a bit also.
Tweedledope 11-28-05, 04:04 PM	One of the main arguments I was having is that creatures that are immune to Mind-Effecting things are usually immune for a reason...usually it's anatomical. However, I can understand if you could manipulate the class to allow it to work vs. non-Oozes/Plants/Undead/Constructs/etc. -=TD=-
Rod Howard 11-28-05, 05:05 PM	By the way... Hexblade 4 / Warshaper 4 doesn't qualify for Mindbender. You need an Arcane Caster Level of 5.
Rod Howard 11-29-05, 03:46 PM	Sincerely, I'm not sure if Hexblade 4 grants an Arcane Caster Level of 1 or 4. In any case, could you boost it with Practiced Spellcaster and thus qualify for Mindbender? Thanks for the clarification. For now, I'm working on the feats progression for the Hexblade 4 / Rogue 2 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4 build (thinking about switching one level of Hexblade for a level in something else, like Fighter, to gain all of the armor and weapon proficiencies I need AND a bonus feat, loosing just two level 1 spells a day and a familiar). The goal is, since it's already as good as it can get as a party social rogue / face, to make it as combat oriented as possible. The idea is to render this character able to deal with caster / melee / physical ranged attackers both in the defensive and offensive department. The Thought Tricks seem to be my best bet, but I need to somehow gain a consistent damage output. I surely don't hope effective against creatures immune to mind affecting effects: the party's there for that.
Tweedledope 11-29-05, 03:49 PM	Rod, with all of those base classes you'll be looking at an XP penalty...might want to try and keep it simple even if it's not 100% optimized. Also, just as with the Paladin/Ranger, a Hexblade has no caster level until he reaches the level that he actually gains spells. Then, his caster level is equal to his class level divided by two IIRC. -=TD=-
Rod Howard 11-29-05, 03:53 PM	Right, I totally forgot about the XP penality issue. Too bad, a level of fighter could have been very good.