Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sithobi1 06-08-05, 07:36 PM	I'm looking to go Changeling Cabinet Trickster(from Races of Eberron). Any suggestions for what should be in those 6 levels before I can obtain Cabinet Trickster? Edit: Any 3.5 will work, and maybe 3.0. Feats, skills etc. also welcome.
Kintara 06-08-05, 07:39 PM	Mind Spy is a great lead-out. I believe you can qualify for Warshaper a level early (before entering CT). A Fighter/Warshaper/Cabinet Trickster/Mind Spy would work pretty well, I think (though you might need some class skills this lacks, IDHMBWM)
Ashaman Nash 06-08-05, 07:45 PM	(Any high-skill class)/Fighter/Warshaper/Cabinet Trickster is a GOOD thing to do. You can mix and match gaining levels in Warshaper and Cabinet Trickster once you've obtained them both - whatever helps you most.
smrtgmp 06-08-05, 09:13 PM	Jee, where'd you get that idea? ;) Whats up bee-ach? :) Personally, I think the class goes well with the chameleon from RoD. The chameleon is great flavorwise with a changeling, and the cabinet trickster gives the mind reading abilities needed to be a truly fantastic imposter. You really couldnt ask for a better spy. Trail someone for a while and read their thougths. Kill them, change shape to look like them, and then use your chameleon abilities to duplicate enough of your victims abilities so that no one will know what went down.
jedrious 06-08-05, 09:44 PM	Hexblade4/Warshaper2/Cabinet Trickster5/Mindspy5/Warshaper3-5/Mindbender1
Tweedledope 06-08-05, 10:50 PM	Okay, the greatest thing about the Cabinet Trickster is that, if you plan right, you can qualify for it as your 6th level. This is my current favorite build for the Cabinet Trickster...I like to get in it as soon as possible in order to maximize its' potential. Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Chameleon 10. That is -the- most versatile character I have ever played. Another good version of this build (though it is hard to do) is something like this... Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 5/Mindspy 5. Now, I'm not 100% sure if you can even qualify for Mindspy 5 at that level because I know that Cabinet Trickster doesn't treat Concentration as a class skill and I don't believe that Warshaper does either. So, it's pretty tricky to fit levels of Mindspy in these builds even though it would be AWESOME...remember, when a Cabinet Trickster uses his/her Detect Thoughts they have the potential to STUN their enemies leaving them helpless...if you could par this up with the Mindspy's ability to have a spherical Detect Thoughts, you have one killer attack and a great mage slayer. If there is any way to get that last build to work, by all means, go for it. It would be superb. I don't have my Races of Destiny in front of me right now but, does the Chameleon have Concentration as a class skill? If so, you might want to try something like this...mainly because I hate Warshaper's fifth level... Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 3/Chameleon 2/Mindspy 5. If that build works you will be one awesome character. I'm not sure how your base attack will be nor do I have the capability to calculate your saves but, the versatility of those builds is so awesome. -=Tweedledope=-
jedrious 06-08-05, 10:55 PM	Okay, the greatest thing about the Cabinet Trickster is that, if you plan right, you can qualify for it as your 6th level. This is my current favorite build for the Cabinet Trickster...I like to get in it as soon as possible in order to maximize its' potential. Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Chameleon 10. That is -the- most versatile character I have ever played. Another good version of this build (though it is hard to do) is something like this... Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 5/Mindspy 5. Now, I'm not 100% sure if you can even qualify for Mindspy 5 at that level because I know that Cabinet Trickster doesn't treat Concentration as a class skill and I don't believe that Warshaper does either. So, it's pretty tricky to fit levels of Mindspy in these builds even though it would be AWESOME...remember, when a Cabinet Trickster uses his/her Detect Thoughts they have the potential to STUN their enemies leaving them helpless...if you could par this up with the Mindspy's ability to have a spherical Detect Thoughts, you have one killer attack and a great mage slayer. If there is any way to get that last build to work, by all means, go for it. It would be superb. I don't have my Races of Destiny in front of me right now but, does the Chameleon have Concentration as a class skill? If so, you might want to try something like this...mainly because I hate Warshaper's fifth level... Changeling Rogue 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 3/Chameleon 2/Mindspy 5. If that build works you will be one awesome character. I'm not sure how your base attack will be nor do I have the capability to calculate your saves but, the versatility of those builds is so awesome. -=Tweedledope=- hexblade has concentration as a class skill
Antendren 06-08-05, 11:53 PM	So does Warshaper. I put together a Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Warshaper 4/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 build. Start with Rogue 4/Fighter 1, grab a level of Warshaper, and then go into Cabinet Trickster. With Able Learner, you can keep pumping concentration until you get to Mindspy.
Tweedledope 06-08-05, 11:55 PM	Ooh, nice. But, I like Changeling Rogues due to the substitution levels. You lose your trapfinding and such (which can be kinda major) but you gain 10 + Int Modifier (x4 at first level) of Skills...that is out of this world. No matter what yer startin' off with 40 skill points at first level. That's insane. However, the following build might work nicely... Hexblade 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 5/Mindspy 5...nice, me like.
jedrious 06-09-05, 12:01 AM	yeah, looked at Hexblade 5 and said Bleh, a BAB a feat and 1 more use of curse per day, as oppossed to Mindbender which gives you instant communication with people, and also lets you mentally put peoples mind on a particular subject for you to read without people around you knowing
allenchan 06-09-05, 12:25 AM	Hexblade 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 5/Mindspy 5...nice, me like. You just broke one of the ten commandments of the CO board. Never, ever, ever take the 5th level of Warshaper. :eek:
Tweedledope 06-09-05, 12:46 AM	You just broke one of the ten commandments of the CO board. Never, ever, ever take the 5th level of Warshaper. :eek: Heh, I totally didn't mean to...I didn't include it 100% in my first builds. I just did it from pressing 5 as a habit. lol Maybe instead of Hexblade 5 a simple Rogue 4/Fighter 2 would work and scrap the fifth level of Warshaper...something like this: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Cabinet Trickster 5/Warshaper 4/Mindspy 5...Concentration still might be rough. -=Tweedledope=- "repenting for his CO sins"
carnivore 06-09-05, 12:47 AM	heres a few more: changeling Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 3/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 8 or Rogue 3/ Ranger 2/ Warshaper 1/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Chameleon 9 :D
Sithobi1 06-09-05, 01:08 AM	Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. Since we're using fractional BAB/Saves, I decided on this build: Rogue 2/Marshal 1/Paladin2/Warshaper 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Warshaper 2-4 I have one empty spot in the build, and would like some feat advice, or criticism on this build. Thanks.
Antendren 06-09-05, 03:36 AM	Your DM's ok with a lawful good Cabinet Trickster?
smrtgmp 06-09-05, 05:49 AM	How are you getting into cabinet trickster at level 6? It requires 9 ranks in something, doesnt it?
TerrickTerran 06-09-05, 09:27 AM	Yes 9 ranks in disguise IIRC.
Marcus Majarra 06-09-05, 11:46 AM	You just broke one of the ten commandments of the CO board. Never, ever, ever take the 5th level of Warshaper. :eek: I can see how it could be useless for a Changeling whose style doesn't revolve around changing shape continually, but why is this generally a bad thing?
Tweedledope 06-09-05, 12:40 PM	This is what I get for not having my books when I post. My build is backwards..switch Warshaper and CT levels...
Sithobi1 06-09-05, 02:46 PM	You're going to get bonus feats from the Cabinet Trickster class, and Quick Change has the same effect as Flashmorph, I think, so it would be rather useless.
Ashlan 06-09-05, 05:02 PM	I REALLY like this build. I have always thought that Mindspy had cool flavor but it was just too hard to fit into a build (you either need to cast Detect Thoughts and lose spellcaster levels, or find a race with it as a bonus, which my DM wouldn't allow). Anyway, so far the build I am looking at goes like this... Changling Str 13 (+1 @ 20) Dex 14 Con 16 (+1 @ 12 and 16) Int 16 (+1 @ 4 and 8) Wis 10 Chr 16 Class BAB Fort Ref Will Feat Rogue 1 0 0 2 0 Able Learner (makes sense that they can take if even if not RAW) (Racial Substitution) Rogue 2 1 0 3 0 Rogue 3 2 1 3 1 Improved Initiative Rogue 4 3 1 4 1 Rogue 5 3 1 4 1 Rogue 6 4 2 5 2 Persona Immersion Cabinet Trickster 1 4 2 7 4 Cabinet Trickster 2 5 2 8 5 Quick Change (bonus) Warshaper 1 5 4 8 5 ? Cabinet Trickster 3 6 5 8 5 Warshaper 2 7 6 8 5 Cabinet Trickster 4 8 6 9 6 ? , Disturbing Visage (bonus) Warshaper 3 9 6 10 7 Cabinet Trickster 5 9 6 10 7 Warshaper 4 10 7 10 7 ? Mindspy 1 11 7 10 9 Mindspy 2 12 7 10 10 Mindspy 3 13 8 11 10 ? Mindspy 4 14 8 11 11 Mindspy 5 15 8 11 11 I'm not too worried about the lack of a 4th attack as this is supposed to be a skills focused character, but any recommendations on feats would be greatly appreciated *editing for readability* Ash
LeCroix 06-10-05, 07:11 AM	I love the combination of mind spy and cabinet trickster, although the biggest downside is that you're pretty much a one-trick pony. I think an interesting alternative might be something like human paragaon 1/hexblade 4/warshaper 1/cabinet trickster 5/mindspy 4/iajutsu master 5. Racial emulation gives you the ability to meet the pre-req for human paragon, which gives you the adaptive learning you need for effect iajutsu. Shoe-horning a 3.0 OA class into the build is a bit cheesy, but it gives you some backup punch when faced with enemies immune to detect thoughts.
Dracophile 06-13-05, 04:33 AM	I don't have my books with me ATM, but would a Hexblade 4/Warshaper 2/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Chameleon 4 build work? I'm curious about everyone's inclusion of Warshaper. Is this build really going to have the hitpoints and BAB to go toe-to-toe enough to warrant Warshaper inclusion? And as far as the one-trick-pony aspect...is there a way to jack the save for Detect Thoughts up high enough so that you'd be doing stun-damage with it reliably?
jedrious 06-13-05, 10:30 AM	I'm curious about everyone's inclusion of Warshaper. Is this build really going to have the hitpoints and BAB to go toe-to-toe enough to warrant Warshaper inclusion? ever have someone sneak attack you and crit with a pick? it hurts alot, plus a free +4 to str and con as well as fast healing 2 help keep any support character alive longer
Khazra Reborn 06-13-05, 11:27 AM	I love the combination of mind spy and cabinet trickster, although the biggest downside is that you're pretty much a one-trick pony. with the cha to damage & warshaper levels for a higer BaB etc you can be doing a fair amount of combat damage TWFing
LeCroix 06-13-05, 11:41 AM	with the cha to damage & warshaper levels for a higer BaB etc you can be doing a fair amount of combat damage TWFing You don't get the insight bonuses from mindspy if your targets can't be detected by detect thoughts(i.e. undead, vermin, golems, anything with mind blank, and so on). While the build has moderate fighting ability even without detect thoughts, it's not particularly impressive and could really hamper you if you run into a dungeon full of mindless undead. I think Snowflake Wardance would work really well with this build, if you could fit a level of bard in. As does Iajutsu master, and I'm certain there are other useful cha-focused PrC abilities I'm not remembering.
Tweedledope 06-13-05, 12:40 PM	You don't get the insight bonuses from mindspy if your targets can't be detected by detect thoughts(i.e. undead, vermin, golems, anything with mind blank, and so on). While the build has moderate fighting ability even without detect thoughts, it's not particularly impressive and could really hamper you if you run into a dungeon full of mindless undead. I think Snowflake Wardance would work really well with this build, if you could fit a level of bard in. As does Iajutsu master, and I'm certain there are other useful cha-focused PrC abilities I'm not remembering. These characters are not meant to "run into a dungeon full of mindless undead." The true art to playing a Changeling is to manipulate manipulate manipulate. Get hired as a spy for an organization and do their 'dirty work' with any of your hundreds of thousands of identities. The focus of these builds is to maximize versatility with your Changeling abilities. By gaining the Detect Thoughts and Mindtricks, you greatly enhance your ability to be the ultimate spy and even assassin. You can fill any role and you do so with ease.
Ashlan 06-13-05, 04:37 PM	I thought that the Warshaper abilities helped out a character with a lower BAB. Rather then needing BAB 16 to get 4+ attacks per round, a character with Warshaper can create 2 claws, a bite and a gore attack. With a good UMD check and a Polymorph scroll, you can turn into a dragon which adds a tail and wings to get 2 claws, 2 wing attacks, a bite, a gore and a tail slap. The Warshaper just helps to add a few extras and to increase your damage. Now if you don't have access to some scrolls, the extra str/con and immunity to criticals can really help. Leadership should probably go in that build i have above. An artificer would be a really good cohort for this. Ash
DreamWeaver 06-13-05, 06:08 PM	I have a question about the Warshaper's +4 to Str and Con while in "other" form. Obviously the Str is great, especially if you aren't pulling a weapon finesse deal, but the Con? It gives you +2 to your Fort saves, sure, but don't you keep your same hps just like a druid who wildshapes into a small monkey? The druid always has the same hps so why wouldn't the morphing warshaper? I must say, i've looked at the druid threads, and I don't believe the crud they mention about polymorph not having to keep the hps. So much baloney. It is quite clear when you follow all the steps back in the SRD that polymorph, much like alter self upon which it is based, is meant to keep the same hps of the character prior to transformation. Is the "disguise self" based ability that the changelings have or the shifted form that the shifters have different in some key way? I admit I haven't looked at it as much as I have the druids, but I would think there wouldn't be much of a difference in relation to hps.
Eyeless Blond 06-13-05, 06:24 PM	Actually in this case you're qualifying because of your shapechanger subtype, not because of your Change Self ability. So basically the ability that gets you into the class is active all the time, which means your Con bonus is active all the time, and personally I'd rule that gets you the extra HPs. Even if your DM rules differently though (and I'm not sure why he would, but I suppose it's possible) who cares? That's still a +2 to Fort saves, concentration checks, which is not bad just by itself.
Kintara 06-13-05, 08:07 PM	I have a question about the Warshaper's +4 to Str and Con while in "other" form. Obviously the Str is great, especially if you aren't pulling a weapon finesse deal, but the Con? It gives you +2 to your Fort saves, sure, but don't you keep your same hps just like a druid who wildshapes into a small monkey?No, this changed between editions. Here's an article on the website. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) Here's the relevant quote: * The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. The subject retains its own mind, but its body is transformed into a semblance of the assumed form. Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in hit points. A change in ability scores might render some of the subject's feats unusable. If a feat has an ability score prerequisite that the subject no longer meets, the subject still has the feat, but cannot use it so long as the prerequisite is not met. If the subject has a prestige class that depends on an unusable feat, the subject cannot use any features of the class but retains any Hit Dice, base attack, and base save bonuses from the class and also retains weapon and armor proficiencies from the class.
DreamWeaver 06-13-05, 10:24 PM	Amazing! I'd love to know how they came to that crazy conclusion. The SRD states that polymorph is based on alter self. Alter self states that you don't gain/lose hps in the altered form. Of course, alter self also doesn't state that it changes the ability scores of the user, but polymorph does. However, since polymorph never explicitly states that a change in Con manifests itself as a change in hps in the new form, I thought that would imply that your hps didn't change. According to the article you linked, that whole idea is blown out of the water. Why? They just decided that by stating it changed your Con score that it would modify your hps? What if I take the form of some stupid creature that happens to have a Con score of 8? Normally, my Con would be an 18, thus giving me 4 hps per hit die (lets say lvl 10). So instead of having 85 hps (say d8, average for all 10 lvls, thats 45 base hps), I would have 35?! Super suckage. Of course, that makes a bit more sense then why they would give you a +4 Con bonus in Warshaper when in an altered form.
Kintara 06-14-05, 02:47 AM	Amazing! I'd love to know how they came to that crazy conclusion. The SRD states that polymorph is based on alter self. Alter self states that you don't gain/lose hps in the altered form. Of course, alter self also doesn't state that it changes the ability scores of the user, but polymorph does. However, since polymorph never explicitly states that a change in Con manifests itself as a change in hps in the new form, I thought that would imply that your hps didn't change.Yeah, well, the reason it says your HP doesn't change in Alter Self is to dispel any ideas that you use the creature's actual HD and HP from the monster description. Since Polymorph doesn't explicitly say that you don't gain/lose HP from Con, you can assume that it works like normal for ability score adjustments. That said, I could see how you came to your conclusion. Polymorph has always been a gigantic mess, imo. So, yeah, you can dump your Con as a Druid more successfully than most other classes.
Dracophile 06-14-05, 08:41 PM	I plan on going Hexblade 4/Warshaper 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Chameleon 2/Warshaper 2-4 Besides Able Learner at first level, what feats should I be taking? Normally when I create a character feats are predetermined by pre-reqs and intense specialization. But Tricksters shouldn't specialize. Now I'm just lost.... Tanx :)
Tweedledope 06-14-05, 11:33 PM	I plan on going Hexblade 4/Warshaper 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Chameleon 2/Warshaper 2-4 Besides Able Learner at first level, what feats should I be taking? Normally when I create a character feats are predetermined by pre-reqs and intense specialization. But Tricksters shouldn't specialize. Now I'm just lost.... Tanx :) Well, one thing that might work (I'm not sure as per RAW) is to take Ability Focus (Mindtrick). Because mindtrick is broken up into power levels over 5 levels of character it should allow you to just focus on Mindtrick as one ability and bump the DC up by +2. I know it's not much but, it helps. Another thing you might want to think about is Improved Natural Attack. When you Warshape into something to gain, say, a powerful claw attack, it never hurts to do one up on damage. You really don't have to worry too much about feats though becase the second level of Chameleon allows you to change your bonus feat EVERY DAY. It's friggin' awesome.
Dracophile 06-15-05, 08:54 PM	What about Hexblade 2/Chaotic Evil Paladin Variant 2 (UA)/Warshaper 2 for a lead in? Has anyone played one of these puppies yet? Any useful feat suggstions?
Darkness 06-15-05, 09:01 PM	How is everyone getting into Mindspy from Cabinet Trickster? Mindspy requires Detect Thoughts as a spell or spell-like ability, but Cabinet Trickster only grants it as a supernatural ability. Am I missing something?
Sithobi1 06-15-05, 09:49 PM	I think everyone expects the DMs to HR this, especially since (IIRC) the picture is that of a Doppleganger, which has the same Su ability to detect thoughts.
Ashlan 06-16-05, 03:08 AM	I just assume it's one of the HUNDREDS of mistakes in Complete Warrior that still has not been errata'd. Even their sample Mindspy only has Detect Thoughts (Su) to access the class. I do have to say though, I really like the Change Shape (Su) ability Cabinet Tricksters get at 5th level. Makes me feel less cheap about using Changling's Shapeshifter sub-type to qualify for Warshaper. Ash
the shaderaven 06-16-05, 04:35 AM	First, I really like a Paladin of Tyrany (Unearthed Arcana) both power and flavourwise for this build. Second, is there any way to put the ability to use schism (the 4th level telepath power) into this build? This means a free Detect Thoughts or Mind Trick atempt every round at practically zero cost (except the cost of the power itself). Considering the Mind Tricks are the cournerstone of this character... this can arguably be considered 100% power boost. I was thinking something along the lines of: Paladin of Tyrany 4/Warshaper 4/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Telepath 2 Paladin of Tyrany 4 gives: All martial Weapon and Armor Proficiency. Divine Grace - Cha (which will be high) to saves. Aura of Dispair - the -2 penalty to saving throws helps both your Detect Thoughts/Mind Tricks and the spellcasters in your party will love ya. Divine Health - its always nice to have it around. Rebuke Undead - gives you access to Divine Power which means Cha (which will be high) to your attacks (irrelative attacks with a manifactured weapon + secondary attacks with a few grown natural ones). Telepath 2 gives: 1 Bonus Psionic Feat - bonus feats are always welcome and psionic feats are fun. 5 1st level powers - hardly gamebraking, but the utility they offer is nice and they really help flesh out the character concept. Ability to use Djore of Schism - this gives you a free Detect Thoughts/Mind Trick attempt every round at practically no cost except the cost for mnifesting the power itself. Since this is arguably 75% boost of this build power - I think its worth it.
Tweedledope 06-16-05, 09:07 AM	Honestly the dip into telepath is pretty futile. Schism is a 4th level power which you could not manifest with a 2 level dip. You'd be much better off with two levels of Chameleon for the "revolving" bonus feat. Besides, Chameleon gives a little more flavor and a LOT more versatility. I do, however, like the inclusion of Paladin of Tyranny. One question though, is Concentration a class skill? If not you're going to have a hell of a time qualifying for Mindspy. I don't know how well it would work (especially with the confusing as hell Chameleon wording) but, you would be just as benefited from a wand of Haste as you would from a Djore of Schism, IMO. -=Tweedledope=-
RadicalTaoist 06-16-05, 09:14 AM	If you want that Dorje of Schism, then go Psychic Rogue or Shaper (Use Psionic Device! Shibby!)
the shaderaven 06-16-05, 06:28 PM	I choose Telepath because it goes nice with the whole Mind-theme and it does it work giving me access to what i want from power-standpoint - Djore of Schism. And actually the second telepath level is useless, but I cant think of another 1 level dip that is worth the effort. Psichic Rogue is just as valid suggestion.... but as I said - I like the flavour of the telepath more. Actually considering how most campaig i play in end well before 20th level... i really dont care for the finishing levels of this build. p.s. No, haste wont help - unless its the 3.0 Haste.
Dracophile 06-17-05, 07:11 PM	Don't mean to derail...but how is everyone getting multiple natural attacks from level one Warshaper? It looks like you can choose just one set of natural attacks at a time. Sure...they use "natural attacks" a couple times, but the plural is to refer to the multiple types of natural attacks you can choose from. At least, that seems to be the case, as every example they give is a character accessing just one natural attack at a time. They even have a rule for the time it takes to switch between natural attacks...why would they have that if you could access them all? Edit: They also have the example of a creature who already has a natural attack using Morhpic Weapons to improve that natural attack instead of gaining a different/new natural attack.
the shaderaven 06-18-05, 10:17 AM	It takes a standar action to grow one time of natural attack. The you can use another standart action to grow another set or to improve the one he had just grown. That at least is my interpretation of the rules. It is pretty clear that he can't grow 23 different natural weapons with one standart action, but besides that - its a bit of a grey area.
Zemyla 06-18-05, 04:18 PM	You just broke one of the ten commandments of the CO board. Never, ever, ever take the 5th level of Warshaper. :eek: With Quick Change and the 5th level of Warshaper, you can change shape as a free action. I think that's worth having.
EysMultani 06-22-05, 01:52 AM	Does anyone have suggestions for useful Change Shape forms?