| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Surreal07-28-05, 06:47 PM | (I know I saw threads for this some time ago, but for the life of me I can't find them). So obviously, I'm looking for something along the lines of ???/CT 5/MS 5/??? and wondering what to fill in the blanks with. A potential build I have is: paladin 3/ninja 3/CT 5/MS 5/Warshaper 4, which gives me a BAB 16, saves 10/10/11, cha to saves, AC, and attacks, and wis to AC. Another idea was to drop paladin 3 and MS 5 and add two levels of Kensai. I'd go down to BAB 15, but gain the kensai's power surge and weapon goodies. This kind of lends to an image of a deadly bodyguard character who can take the role of covert operative and thought police if need be. And as an aside, if a Kensai chooses his fists as his signature weapons, but then shifts (ala CT 5 or Warshaper 1) into something with claws, would those claws continue to hold the enchantment? I can see straight bard/rogue/ninja being simpler lead-ins to cabinet trickster (any other classes offer disguise?), but I feel like I should should get some stronger combat related abilities in there too. On the other hand, being able to mind-stun then constantly get sneak attacks/sudden strikes is appealing too. Thoughts? |
| catharz07-28-05, 07:01 PM | And as an aside, if a Kensai chooses his fists as his signature weapons, but then shifts (ala CT 5 or Warshaper 1) into something with claws, would those claws continue to hold the enchantment? No, but your fists would. |
| Aramas07-28-05, 08:13 PM | Rokugan Ninja 4 / Warshaper 4 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mind Spy 5 / Chameleon 2 |
| Surreal07-28-05, 08:36 PM | What book is Rokugan Ninja from? |
| Spellbinded07-28-05, 08:47 PM | Rokugan ninja is a lot like Rokugan Shugenja...they're from OA, a 3.0 supplement. The problem is that there are 3.5 versions of these classes (in Complete Adventurer and Complete Divine, respectively), that take precedent. Some people like the Rokugan Ninja better in that it has a higher BAB and some cheesier abilities...but, as far as I'm aware (and concerned), the one in the Complete Adventurer is the one that you want to look at, if you want to look at a Ninja... That is, unless you're playing a 3.0 only game. Now, as far as a Changeling using Mindspy and Cabinet Trickster, I'm partial to Hexblade 4/Warshaper 4/Mindbender 2/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5. |
| Marcus Majarra07-28-05, 10:32 PM | I'm partial to the Changeling Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warshaper 4 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5, with the proper changeling rogue substitution levels. Great for a Dex/Int/Cha character. |
| geekpocket07-28-05, 11:41 PM | I'll 2nd the Changling Rogue with sub levels going into CT and MS, but leave out the swashbuckler. I played this character in a city game (Sharn, to be exact) and he was the Face master. He belonged to all of the thieves guilds, worked them against each other and the party at the same time. His combat abilities suffered, but through judicious use of poisoned bolts he helped out a little. side note: getting into the dragonmarked only guild was easy. he bought a 'magic tattoo', i.e. an item that produces a dragonmarked spell like ability once per day that didnt take up a body slot. |
| Surreal07-31-05, 04:53 PM | I just noticed that Warlock has the disguise skill (for prereqs), and that some of his abilities look like they could mesh nicely with Cabinet Trickster/Mindspy. However, I have no experience at all with the Warlock. Does the class combination work out nicely at all? And if so, any suggestions for builds/uses? |
| Aramas07-31-05, 06:55 PM | Well, if you don't like Rokugan Ninja (which is as different from the CV Ninja as the OA Samurai is from the CW Samurai) then does anyone else know of a Full Base Attack class that has Disguise as a class skill? |
| Spellbinded07-31-05, 07:14 PM | Well, if you don't like Rokugan Ninja (which is as different from the CV Ninja as the OA Samurai is from the CW Samurai) then does anyone else know of a Full Base Attack class that has Disguise as a class skill? They are rather different. They're also out of different editions of the game. Plus, the Rokugan/OA stuff is rather setting specific (and in a different setting then the Cabinet Trickster, obviously), so some DMs may have a problem there. As for a full BAB, disguise wielding class - I can't think of one off the top of my head, but that doesn't matter a terrible amount, so long as you can have enough of an attack bonus before you get into a class with disguise. My build, for example, gets the all important +16 (four attacks), its only base class is Hexblade, and then only for four levels. So, just to do the math - +4 (4 Hexblade levels), plus +1 (2 Mindbender levels) plus +3 (4 Warshaper levels) plus +3 (5 Cabinet Trickster levels) plus +5 (5 Mindspy levels) equals +16 (in 20 levels). |
| Surreal07-31-05, 07:32 PM | Spellbinded The problem with your build though is that none of your classes have Disguise as a class skill, which makes getting into Cabinet Trickster very difficult. |
| Spellbinded07-31-05, 08:00 PM | Maybe I have a different version of Complete Warrior then you, but mine says Warshapers have Disguise. |
| Surreal07-31-05, 09:50 PM | :confused: *looks it up* :eek: *removes foot from mouth* Well I'll be a son of an incestuous monkey's uncle... I totally missed that. I wonder if something like Hex 3/Warlock 4/WS4/CT5/MS4 could work (still trying to see if warlock works in the whole thing). Hmm, maybe I should try cooking up something without the whole warshaper jankiness. |
| Antendren07-31-05, 10:31 PM | They also have concentration for Mindspy. |
| Surreal08-02-05, 11:01 PM | Hmm, any way to work Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) into a build to get Cha into AC? How about... Hexblade 4/Warshaper 2/Blackguard 2/Arcane Duelist 2/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 Nets me: BAB 16, saves 9/9/15, cha to attack, cha x 2 to AC (sort of), and cha to saves (x2 vs spells) ... but why do I think I'm messing up one of the prereqs somewhere? edit: oops, have to take some levels of CT after Warshaper in order to get the BAB requirements for Blackguard and/or Arcane Duelist. |
| Surreal08-06-05, 01:16 AM | Whee, I'm really liking the whole Cabinet Trickster/Mindspy concept. Also, I just got 4 wisdom teeth out and haven't slept in two days thanks to the T3's so I started writing stuff at 3am last night. Here goes... I hope it's all coherent: Sneak attack Cabinet Trickster/Mindspy - basic premise: stun opponent, sneak attack, wash rinse repeat - I consider Mindspy a must in these builds; yes it holds back on your sneak attack, but it gives you full BAB plus the anticipate ability (which is basically like getting +2 to your attack every level), and just as important is the ability to detect thoughts at instand speed - I'm also trying to stray away from Warshaper jankiness lead ins: we want to maximize the amount of sneak attack, so obviously starting out in Rogue is a no brainer. The Changeling Rogue substitution levels are excellent by the way. Rogue 6 - classic, but we can probably do better, although if you're going for the 8th level Changeling rogue substitution level, then this is the only way to go Rogue 3/Ninja 3 - you can grab the first two rogue substitution levels, get more sneak attack, better saves, better BAB, plus invisibility and wisdom to AC... what's not to like? Rogue 5/Assassin 1 - access to spells could be useful later meat of the build: - Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4 - I consider the minimum cutoff for Mindspy at level 4, which grants you instant detect thoughts. While grabbing the 5th level is nice (effectively another +2 to attack, +1 to AC), I preferred to stuff other things into that slot leading out: - Invisible Blade 5 - full BAB, 3 sneak attack - this should be an all or nothing class for the feint as a (once per round) free action (the errata not changing it to a swift action actually works out better; see below) - Assassin - gives you (improved) uncanny dodge, poison, and spells which can lead into Arcane Duelist, and Assassin 5 meets the prereqs to let you take the Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior) that lets you burn spells for extra damage - Arcane Duelist - good saves, no SA advancement, dip two levels to get weapon +1 and Cha to your AC Other - Shadow Thief of Amn (could be useful) Some builds: (classes not given in any particular order; mix'n'match to meet prereqs and level spacing as necessary) Rogue 10/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 - BAB 15, saves 5/12/11, 5 sneak attack - straight forward, and gets you one special ability (improved evasion or opportunist are probably the best ones, depending on your play style) - swap out one level of Rogue for Assassin - one more sneak attack, lose special ability, gain poison and death attack, gain some spells - swap out two levels of Rogue for Assassin 2 if you took the 8th substitution level (mutable anatomy) but would still really like to get Improved Uncanny Dodge - although being a rogue, you really shouldn't put yourself into a flanked situation to begin with Rogue or Ninja 5/Scout 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 - BAB 14, saves 4/13/10; 3d6 sneak, 2d6 skirmish, not quite a sneak attack fighter but you're a fairly effective spying/hit and run kind of guy - infiltrate, read minds, recon, cause some general confusion, maybe stun and do an alpha strike amidst the chaos, then run away Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Invisible Blade 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4 - BAB 16, saves 5/15/11, 7d6 "sneak" attack, wis and cha (+4 max) and int (+5 max) to AC, cha (max +4) to attack; if you take the Intuitive attack feat (BoED), who needs physical scores? :) - feint as your free action, stun or go invisible as a swift action, and you still have your movement and attack options available after that Rogue 3/Ninja 3/Assassin 5/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4 - BAB 14, saves 5/15/11; 7d6 "sneak", similar to above except your bab is lower and you don't get int to AC - but you do get improved uncanny dodge, poison, death attack, plus assassin 5 grants you 3rd level arcane casting which you can burn for some pretty good damage via Arcane Strike Rogue 3/ninja 3/Assassin 3/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4/Arcane Duelist 2 - BAB 14, saves 5/16/14, 6d6 "sneak" attack, wis + cha + cha(max 4) to AC, cha(max 4) to attack, +1 attack from Arcane Duelist - excellent saves, uncanny dodge, excellent AC, 2nd level spells - or take out Arcane Duelist for Bard 2 and take the Snowflake Wardance feat (Frostburn) to add cha to your attack - or take out Arcane Duelist for Warshaper 2 |
| Surreal12-15-05, 01:40 AM | Hmm, random bump... Changeling Half-Vampire 2 or Half-Fey 2/Warlock X/Rogue Y/Mindbender Z/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5 - use either Half-Vampire or Half-Fey to qualify for Mindbender without taking up a precious invocation slot Ooh, here's a thought: Find a way to fit the ghost template in there. Possess someone, then blast away with your warlock abilities. Now if only there was a way to use the Changeling's alter self ability when possessing someone (heck, I'd homebrew a feat just for that due to sheer coolness and role-play factor). I have some character builds I'd like to write down too, once I get some time (I keep saying that... it never seems to happen though). |
| fnord12-15-05, 01:46 AM | - I'm also trying to stray away from Warshaper jankiness Not sure what you mean by "jankiness" in this context. Morphic Weapons is really good for a sneak attack build, 'cause it gets you more attacks. But, if by "jankiness" you mean that you (or your DM) think it's cheesy, then by all means avoid it. |
| Surreal12-15-05, 01:53 AM | But, if by "jankiness" you mean that you (or your DM) think it's cheesy, then by all means avoid it. I've always felt that having the changeling qualify for Warshaper was a bit cheesy. This by no means doesn't mean I won't abuse it though. But personally, I like my cheesiness with a side of lycanthropy :D |
| Baudolino12-15-05, 02:03 AM | Honestly, I've always thought changelings made far more sense as Warshapers than Shifters, even though shifters obviously are used to growing fangs and weapons. Lots of reasoning for this, but the biggest one is that the shifter has such limited flexibility in its shapeshifting, which to me implies that it would be less likely to focus on a class whose combat abilities generate from a certain degree of fluidity. Changelings, on the other hand, are used to changing everything about themselves, and have a great degree of control over how they change. If you go by the culture in Races of Eberron, most changelings that you'll find as adventurers put a lot of pride into their shapeshifting ability, and will practice and hone it, sometimes in the form of games (impersonating a friend and seeing how long it takes for everyone else to notice, &c), and sometimes in more traditional training. They can even shift their features to effect the opponent's reactions in combat, as Disturbing Visage shows. So all of the Warshaper abilities make a lot of sense to me - why shouldn't a changeling focus on moving his organs around so critical hits are harder, grow claws, &c? Especially a Cabinet Trickster/Mindspy changeling, who will eventually begin changing more than just physical appearance, once he gets that level 5 cabinet trickster shape change... |
| neilthrun12-15-05, 09:59 PM | While Changlings don't explicitly qualify for Chameleon(Races of Desitiny), being that they are half human, half doppleganger, and Races of Eberron mentions changlings taking the PRC, it is a wonderful choice. I'd try to get a couple levels in. |
| pfooti12-16-05, 07:03 PM | Actually in the entry for Chamelon, under "adaptations", they explicitly mention Changeling. They say, if you're playing Eberron, you should let Changelings into the class. My take on the build is somewhat straightforward, I think. Rogue 6 (or Rog3/Swb3), Warshaper 4, Cabinet Trickster 5, Mindspy 5. Not sure what order to go in, but they'd probably interleave a bit. Nice, all-around utility build for a social / political game. As far as warshaper goes, it's too awesome to pass up, unless your DM bans it outright. The unexpected reach attack can be really fun to describe. |
| Anders Rasmussen12-18-05, 05:32 PM | I just noticed that Warlock has the disguise skill (for prereqs), and that some of his abilities look like they could mesh nicely with Cabinet Trickster/Mindspy. However, I have no experience at all with the Warlock. Does the class combination work out nicely at all? And if so, any suggestions for builds/uses? For a strictly social game I’m thinking that maybe Warlock6/Mindbender1/C.Trickster5/Mindspy4/Warshaper4, or maybe something else than warshaper... Take the invoc. that give +6 to bluff/senseM/intimidate (or something like that), and charm at will. This actually seems as a pretty good social build, except for the lack of skill points. But I simply cant seem to figure out how this build is going to deal any noticeable damage at all. Well: D. Magic at will Charm at will D. thoughts at will - against 2 persons and as a instant scan Telepathy at will - seems as pretty good cards in a social game. Uh, and bump - I would love to see anyone make a C.Trickster/Mindspy that actually deal some good damage and is good from 1-20. 9-10 lvls in classes that don’t improve you damage by anything strong just seems like a bit to hard to overcome. Anders |
| Surreal12-19-05, 12:41 AM | I think one of the sneak attack builds that I posted above (post #16) would be the best for dealing damage. Lots of Cha synergy to go around. But yeah, the more I look at it, the more I feel like CT/MS isn't really a great combination for melee, but most useful for social situations. The most useful aspect is MS4 for the instant Mindscan. I think Warlock6/CT5/MS4/Ghost 5 is an absolutely beautiful combination for social settings. If you're allowed to use Savage Progressions for the ghost, don't take the last level of ghost and replace with Mindbender 1. This gives you instant detect thoughts, telepathy, and the crazy ghostly "magic jar". And if you have a generous DM that lets you use the Changeling's "alter self" ablity while you're possessing somebody... Ooh, the possibilities are endless. (heck, I'd allow a homebrew feat to do that for the coolness/roleplay factor alone) |
| Iaimeki12-21-05, 08:54 PM | Rokugan ninja is a lot like Rokugan Shugenja...they're from OA, a 3.0 supplement. The problem is that there are 3.5 versions of these classes (in Complete Adventurer and Complete Divine, respectively), that take precedent. Some people like the Rokugan Ninja better in that it has a higher BAB and some cheesier abilities...but, as far as I'm aware (and concerned), the one in the Complete Adventurer is the one that you want to look at, if you want to look at a Ninja.... Rokugan ninja is actually from a non-WotC source, which is why many people view it with a certain amount of skepticism. WotC claims many classes were "updated" to other classes, but in practice most of these claims are bogus: the "updated" class bears no resemblance to the original class. As far as I know, there's no base class published in Dragon or WotC material with full BAB and Disguise as a class skill. |
| Spellbinded12-21-05, 09:02 PM | Rokugan ninja is actually from a WotC source, which is why many people view it with a certain amount of skepticism. WotC claims many classes were "updated" to other classes, but in practice most of these claims are bogus: the "updated" class bears no resemblance to the original class. As far as I know, there's no base class published in Dragon or WotC material with full BAB and Disguise as a class skill. If by "a WotC source", you mean a non-WotC source...yeah, that is a good reason to be skeptical of it. It's no better then, say, something from Green Ronin or Mongoose publishing. Seems icky to me. |
| Lusden Veharo12-21-05, 10:02 PM | Except that Rokugan is balanced as well as, or better than, many official books. |
| SoulGamit12-21-05, 10:29 PM | Hexblade 3 / Fighter 1 / Warshaper 2 / Cabinate Trickster 5 / Mindspy 4 / Arcane Duelist 2 / Warshaper 2 / Mindspy 1 You can replace levels of hexblade with fighter if you feel you must, but I'd advise against it. This gives you warshaper cheese, cha to saves, hit, decent BAB and saves and mettle. |
| Iaimeki12-21-05, 11:40 PM | I'm going to ask some hard questions about these builds. (These are the hard questions I considered when I first looked at the builds for myself). 1) The save DC for a 5th-level cabinet trickster's detect thoughts is 15+Cha. Given a starting Cha of 16, Ability Focus, 20th-level with all stat pumps to Cha, a +6 Cha item, and +5 book, you're looking at a save DC of 28. Typical high-level opponents such as solars, balors, pit fiends, and old dragons have Will saves of +20 from HD and Wis, before spells or any equipment. Optimized NPCs, with their equipment and spells, usually have equal or higher saves. Thus, your opponents expect to save against detect thoughts more than half the time. Beyond this, the caster level for detect thoughts is only 20 at 20th level, meaning you have only have a 50% chance of beating CR 20 spell resistance. How do you intend to overcome this problem? 2) How much does mindspy contribute to your combat ability? You gain a bonus to AC capped at your mindspy level (if you're playing this character, you should have a Cha bonus high enough to hit the cap), and an insight bonus to attacks. Both of these encounter the problem that you don't expect detect thoughts to succeed that often. The intangible benefit is better access to enemy's plans; how much is this worth? 3) Where does your damage come from? A boring rogue gets +10d6 sneak attack at 20th level. +3d6 is fairly negligible without another source of damage. +7d6 is better; however, do the abilities you gain outweight the +3d6 damage you lose? 4) How much does activating detect thoughts hurt in combat? It takes a standard action unless you take Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and even more rounds until you get mindspy high enough. 5) Warshaper is a strong class, but it helps you more defensively than offensively: +4 Con, fast healing, reach, and immunity to criticals are stronger than +4 Str and morphic weapons. I agree with your summary assessment that this build is much stronger as a social build (where you may encounter opponents whose saves and SR aren't so strong) than a combat build. |
| Iaimeki12-21-05, 11:41 PM | If by "a WotC source", you mean a non-WotC source...yeah, that is a good reason to be skeptical of it. It's no better then, say, something from Green Ronin or Mongoose publishing. Seems icky to me. Yes, blah, that's what I meant. Edited. It was written by AEG as part of Rokugan. |
| Surreal12-22-05, 02:34 AM | I'm going to ask some hard questions about these builds. (These are the hard questions I considered when I first looked at the builds for myself). 1) The save DC for a 5th-level cabinet trickster's detect thoughts is 15+Cha... 2) How much does mindspy contribute to your combat ability? I like Warlock as the prefix to CT, which would ideally allow me to curse my targets to fail their saves vs the Detect Thoughts (there's the generic -4 to all saves, but a specific hit to their will saves or even more specific vs detect thoughts/mind trick should be much higher, maybe -8 depending on the DM). Mind you, getting the curse in effect is the tough part, which is where the roleplaying aspect kicks in. Obviously this can't be done when facing random mobs, but then again, those random mobs aren't the ones with the high will saves are they? The way my games play, constant detect thoughts & telepathy & mindsight (LoM) usually equates to circumstance bonuses for the entire party, especially for ambushes. Bumps to initiative, AC and hit roll, and even removing flanking, as the CT/MS becomes the crazy battlefield commander and organizer, knowing what the enemy does before they act, and communicating it all silently and instantly to the party. I think I worked up a build once that worked in Dread Commando into the CT/MS combo (half utility, half flavour). In many regards, the CT/MS becomes like a bard/marshall. But once again, this is more rp stuff and is heavily dependant on the DM. We've also been operating under some lax interpretations of the rules, as the bunch of us more often than not just let things go because they work and are more fun. 3) Where does your damage come from? The big guy next to me wielding the tree (aka: oversized club) :D |
| Iaimeki12-22-05, 03:23 AM | I like Warlock as the prefix to CT, which would ideally allow me to curse my targets to fail their saves vs the Detect Thoughts (there's the generic -4 to all saves, but a specific hit to their will saves or even more specific vs detect thoughts/mind trick should be much higher, maybe -8 depending on the DM). Mind you, getting the curse in effect is the tough part, which is where the roleplaying aspect kicks in. Obviously this can't be done when facing random mobs, but then again, those random mobs aren't the ones with the high will saves are they? Warlock? Curse? Are you thinking of hexblade? Hexblade curse is 11+Cha, so it doesn't really help unless you get unusually lucky. |
| Surreal12-22-05, 10:09 AM | I meant the Warlock "Curse of Despair" invocation, which is essentially a Bestow Curse. There's still the problem of actually placing the curse in the first place though :plotting: |
| Iaimeki12-22-05, 12:09 PM | I meant the Warlock "Curse of Despair" invocation, which is essentially a Bestow Curse. There's still the problem of actually placing the curse in the first place though :plotting: Ah. For a multiclass warlock, that has the SR-penetration issue in spades and the save DC is still only 14+Cha. |
| Surreal12-23-05, 01:13 AM | Yeah, stupid "they can make a will save against the spell that's supposed to lower their will save" conundrum *grumble* :rolleyes: But at least you can keep trying indefinitely until it works. That dragon might get a little suspicious about you repeatedly poking him though... |
| Tweedledope01-03-06, 03:54 PM | Okay...let's see. Is there any way possible to get 1 level of Mindbender; 5 Cabinet Trickster and 5 Mindspy all in one build? Getting the ability to Charm seems to be the hard part of this build. Warlock 6/Mindbender 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5/Warshaper 3 Hmm...what does everyone think about that build? You get constant Telepathy/Detect Thoughts and some wicked goodness with the Mindsight feat. Quick question though, is it worth the delay into CT and MS? To me, it seems like this build would only really be good in a higher level campaign. Any thoughts? -=TD=- |
| Surreal01-03-06, 04:33 PM | Cabinet Trickster is only ever really good once you get 5th level for unlimited use of your detect thoughts, tricks and stun. So the class is inherently a "late bloomer", and even then not quite. Mindspy is there to play catchup with everyone else and bring your abilities up to par, with MS 4 being kind of the break point. In the above build, I might think about dropping a Warshaper level (lose reach) for more warlock, simply to get another invocation. Or just pick up Rogue 1 with the racial substitution level (which is fantabulous). Another route is to go more Melee and use Hexblade to get arcane spells for Mindbender. Cha synergy is a little nicer here, with better saves and mettle. |
| pfooti01-03-06, 05:57 PM | By the same token, I'd be hesitant to drop Warshaper 4, since fast healing 2 is one of the best abilities you can get. Isn't charm person a 1st level spell? Toss in a level of sorceror and take practiced spellcaster, and you meet the "Cast charm" and "CL 5" prereqs of mindbender, and can cast mage armor on yourself when you need it. |
| Tweedledope01-03-06, 06:55 PM | Well, I thought about the Sorcerer tick but, my DM REALLY hates it when we dip into Sorcerer...I suppose I could talk to him about it though. Also, the reason I chose Warlock was because they have Disguise as a class skill as well as Concentration (Disguise for CT and Concentration for MS). -=TD=- |
| pfooti01-03-06, 07:34 PM | Yeah, sorceror dips are somewhat cheesy, especially when you deal with wands and the like. Even though, I'd say Rogue 5 / Sorceror 1 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Mindspy 5 / Warshaper 4. You could reorder it, but with all those rogue spellpoints (especially with the substitution levels), you can afford to pump some points into beefing your cross-class concentration. Put the sorceror level early, and you can totally make CT in time. It's hard to pass up that +3d6 sneak attack when you're either surprise flanking the guy (because he doesn't expect you to have reach) or while he's stunned. I do, however, like the warlock as well. It's a nice class, with good flavor and cool abilities. Your call, I suppose. |
| Surreal01-04-06, 03:30 AM | Also, the reason I chose Warlock was because they have Disguise as a class skill as well as Concentration (Disguise for CT and Concentration for MS).Although Warshaper does have Disguise and Concentrate as class skills. It only gets 2+Int per level though. Personally, I like a half-fey or half-vampire warlock as a prefix to CT/MS. It just fits nicely flavourwise. Hmm, how about some silly cha synergy in a manner I haven't seen yet: Paladin 4/Warshaper 2/Suel Arcanamach 4/Mindbender 1/CT 5/MS 4 (you'll have to juggle a bit before fitting in Suel) - we get Cha to saves, turning for divine feats (maybe), 1st level paladin spells, 3rd level sorcerer spells, extended tenacious buffs, etc. edit: hmm, if you swap a warshaper level for MS, you can get BAB 16. The overall "to hit" is the same, but you lose a bit of damage and hit points (and fort save), but you gain that 4th attack and the ability to use your abilities against 4 opponents instead of 2. |
| SoulGamit01-04-06, 12:24 PM | 5 levels in marshel would own with this build. You'll get 3 auras, one to boost dextarity checks (initiative), one to boost damage (when flanking) and one to boost charisma checks |
| Alamout Servant01-04-06, 12:34 PM | Hmm, how about some silly cha synergy in a manner I haven't seen yet: hmm... makes sense, after all you'll need to pump cha through the roof to make the save dc on detect thoughts decent. but yeah, thats always been my big problem with these builds. they all fall to mind blank and similar spells, can't deal with undead/constructs, and a saving throw vs. a relatively low dc (comparaed to lots of other save dcs at lv20) stops it cold. but I love the idea, the flavor, and all the rest! so, I want to figure out a way to make the highest detect thoughts DC possible! obviously, maximized charisma and ability focus (detect thoughts), but as Iaimeiki pointed out, there's only so much you can do with that. and there's inherent problems with spells that require saves to reduce saves, like the bestow curse invocation. SO...............three good ways to reduce saves I can think of, Enervation/Energy Drain, and making someone sickened/panicked/etc. evervation is a 4th lvl spell, energy drain a 9th, and caster levels are tough, but UMD could help overcome that, especially since Cha should be pumped as much as possible (and many of the decent lead-ins to the class combo have UMD as a class skill). what are ways to induce sickness and other effects that can reduce saves in battle, without requiring a save themselves? i mean, they're good to keep in mind anyways (lots of spells that cause sickness, for example, are good anyways, require fort saves which are bad for casters, and can still prove to be good lead-ins to a spherical detect thoughts), but what about ways that don't have saving throws? if waves of exhaustion exists, why not waves of nausea? just my thoughts on this whole thing. i love the idea, but I can't figure out for the life of me how to make it viable in a non-social campaign....... |
| CrazyMonkeyBoy04-02-06, 09:17 AM | For those wanting more melee-focused builds, its actually possible to qualify for Cabinet Trickster with any full-BAB class after level 6. All that's needed is Races of Destiny and the City Slicker feat. Can only be taken at first level, but gives disguise and a few other semi-useful skills as permanent class skills. |
| Riodrian04-02-06, 05:59 PM | Personally, I like a half-fey or half-vampire warlock as a prefix to CT/MS. It just fits nicely flavourwise. . I'm parial to the half-fey myself, especially if you can buy it off. Charm and a juicy Charisma bonus...plus lots of other nice social abilities |
| Surreal07-03-06, 01:41 AM | Just trying to find ways of boosting that save DC for your thought tricks... - ability focus +2 - bloodlines (UA) +3 - hexblade dark companion - opponent gets -2 on saves So something like: Hexblade 4*/Warshaper 1/Mindbender 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4/Bloodline (Fey) 3/XYZ 2 *dark companion variant, PHB2 - requires the City Slicker feat for disguise as a class skill - bloodline levels taken at 3, 6, 12 - the Fey bloodline gives you Charm as a SLA, so you don't need practiced spellcaster to qualify for Mindbender (unsure if the bloodline level taken at level 3 counts for the caster level of Charm; if it does, you don't need the Warshaper level) - your effective save for your detect thoughts is DC = 10 + CT level + ability focus + bloodline + Cha = 20 + Cha, or effectively 22 + Cha if you count the fact that the dark companion is imposing that -2 penalty. - thematically, it fits the build to pick up Kiai Shout (CW) to impose the shaken/panicked status and another -2 penalty on their saves - edit: oh yeah, you can impose another -2 to your opponent's saves with the hexblade curse, although the save for the curse will be pretty low - still have two free levels, probably fill it with blackguard or something for Cha to saves |
| Thaumaturgist07-03-06, 08:08 AM | Veil of allure (?) from sandstorm gives another +2 on charisma based supernatural abilities. 14k something. [Edit] Oh yea, how do you get that +3 from the bloodline? On the detect thoughts DC i mean. |
| Surreal07-03-06, 10:55 AM | I'm not too familiar with the UA bloodline rules, but from what I understand you add the bloodline levels to any class dependant saving throws or calculations etc. See below... Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). Hmm, so with the Veil of Allure that brings us up to an effective DC = 24 + Cha. |
| Thaumaturgist07-03-06, 06:49 PM | Looking at the SRD makes me agree. Very neat. Since the cabinet tricksters ability is a class ability and not a racial ability, it works. I know I nag about human paragon alot, but hey, drop a level of let's say.. Mindbender (warshaper is to good for that build). 100ft blindsense-ish is kewl though. Take the feat Human Heritage at 1st level (or as a flaw-feat in conjunction with able learner at 1st for max potential) Grab 3 levels of Human Paragon to get +2 Charisma, that's another +1 to the DC's. Human Paragon 3/Hexblade 4/Warshaper 1/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 4/Bloodline (Fey) 3 Of course it'd be something like Human paragon 1/Hexblade 4/Etc. The other paragon things should be apply when needed, as they increase spellcasting and give a bonus feat. |
| dog4508-28-06, 05:32 PM | I'm planning on using a variation of this build in an upcoming game. edit I was going to use bard instead of warlock, but changed my mind. edit Changeling Rog 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 1 / Marshall 1 / Mindbender 1 / Cabinet Trickster 5 / Spymaster 5 / Warshaper 4 - take the changeling rogue sub level, course. - practice spellcaster: beguiler to get into mindbender, as well. - going spymaster instead of mindspy drops his combat ability, but then he didnt have much to begin with. the only reason i would go mindspy is for the faster detect thoughts. but i dont think it's that big of a deal, seeing as how detect thoughts isnt going to work half the time against prepared encounters anyway. - spymaster keeps the skill madness going, whereas mindspy drops the ball. and this character lives and dies by his social skill checks. the other thing spymaster does is prepare this build for Void Incarnate in Epic Levels. By taking Able Learner, you can keep your Hide and Escape Artist ranks on track. Spymaster gives you slippery mind, and its easy to fit in Lightning Reflexes somewhere along the line. feats of note: - Mindsight - SF: Bluff/Diplomacy - Quick Change feat ideas - Darkstalker - Craven (combine with TWF and 2 weapons with Deadly Precision on them to up your pathetic SA/combat damage. Course, now you gotta deal with SA immune, but there are ways around that.) |
| Surreal08-29-06, 01:00 PM | How are you qualifying for Mindbender? You'd need Warlock 6 for that... |
| ChristopherGroves08-29-06, 01:37 PM | I personally for some reason like the non-caster Cabinent Trickster. Something about losing caster levels rubs me wrong. Changeling NON CASTER 28: STR 10, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 16 1 Rogue 1 - Skill Focus Diplomacy - 11 skill points 2 Marshal 1 - Persona Immersion - CHA aura - 5 skill points 3 Marshal 2 - BASE FEAT - melee aura? - 5 skill points 4 Rogue 2 - 9 skill points 5 Rogue 3 - 11 skill points 6 Rogue 4 or Marshal - BASE FEAT - uncanny dodge or another minor aura - 9 or 5 skill points 7 Cabinet Trickster 1 - 7 skill points 8 Cabinet Trickster 2 - 7 skill points [bonus feat - quick change] 9 Cabinet Trickster 3 - BASE FEAT - 7 skill points 10 Cabinet Trickster 4 - 7 skill points [bonus feat - disturbing visage] 11 Cabinet Trickster 5 - 7 skill points Something like that. Sure, I do like the Beguiling Influence and maybe working in a few levels of Warlock wouldn't be bad ... I really would like to keep casting out of the mix. |
| Surreal08-29-06, 02:00 PM | Hmm, I'm thinking Dragon Shaman could be interesting as a prefix. At-will Ventriloquism or Spider Climb could be userful for a CT/MS. Too bad the totems that offer that aren't also the ones that give Disguise as a class skill, but the City Slicker feat takes care of that. |
| ChristopherGroves08-29-06, 02:51 PM | And non-caster. I like non-caster. Of course, all these dips and the BAB will SUCK. |
| dog4508-29-06, 03:11 PM | Surreal - I'll take Practiced Spellcaster: Warlock to meet the caster level requirements. Hmm. Been awhile since I looked at PS; it applies to Warlock, right. ChristopherGroves - My guy isn't really a caster though. 2 levels of warlock gets me two invocations - Charm and Beguiling Influence. After that, its all skills baby. And telepathy...and mindsight...and detect thoughts...but still. 2 levels of warlock does not a caster make. And by not taking the warlock/mindbender levels, you are actually reducing the builds effectiveness a lot. I mean, this guy is all social skills, and can read your mind. How much better would a big boost to those skills and telepathy be? And the increased saves, cus of multiclassing. With able learner and a high INT, you can keep on track with most of your chosen skills from your rogue levels. So its not necessarily about 'losing caster levels'. |
| Richmud08-29-06, 03:22 PM | Surreal - I'll take Practiced Spellcaster: Warlock to meet the caster level requirements. Hmm. Been awhile since I looked at PS; it applies to Warlock, right. That doesn't solve the lack of charm spell or invocation problem, which I belive is what was being pointed out as needing warlock 6 to acheive |
| ChristopherGroves08-29-06, 04:30 PM | Well, a level of Marshal gets him his CHA as a bonus to ... all CHA skills. Anytime you can stack attributes you are in good shape. Maybe ... Changeling Rogue 1 - lots of skills Marshal 1 - CHA to CHA skills aura Warlock 1 - Beguiling Influence This is the core if you are maxing social skills. Your BAB sucks. Mindspy should help some (but not completely make up for it) and won't happen until later. Options at this point: Bard 1 - w/ Charm Person ... followed by extra music and snowflake wardance to get your CHA to hit Cleric 1? Get some sort of untyped domain bonus to some skills? Mindbender 1 is, I think, not worth it. That's me though. Best bet is likely to not dilute your levels any further or you'll NEVER be any good in combat. |
| dog4508-29-06, 04:34 PM | That doesn't solve the lack of charm spell or invocation problem, which I belive is what was being pointed out as needing warlock 6 to acheive Crap. For some reason I thought the Charm invocation was a Least invocation. this changes everything... edit Bards dont get first level spells at first level...dang...what the crap is that? edit Rogue 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 1 / Marshall 1 / Mindbender 1 / CT 5 / Spymaster 5 / Warshaper 4 With the Beguiler, you get trapfinding back, which this guy lost when he took the changeling sub level. Plus, warlock/beguiler can both cast in light armor, and beguiler has 6 skill points, which is awesome for this guy. |
| ChristopherGroves09-08-06, 01:04 PM | So for your Mindbender. You can get in w/o the lest invocation and still be a warlock at the cost of a single feat in an Eberron game. Player's Guide to Eberron p.35 Touch of Captivation nets you charm person as an SLA. Still, how are you meeting the caster level reqs? Doesn't it require arcane caster 5th or something? |
| dog4509-13-06, 10:26 PM | Still, how are you meeting the caster level reqs? Doesn't it require arcane caster 5th or something? You take the practiced spellcaster feat to bump your CL +4. |
| Tweedledope09-13-06, 10:29 PM | Um...I don't think it works like that...does it? |
| Surreal09-14-06, 02:42 AM | I don't believe it works like that. Practices Spellcaster increases your caster level for a chosen spellcasting class. Those feats in PGtE give you innate SLAs. Still, if I were the DM in this case and the player really wanted to burn two feats on it, I'd allow it. (heck, I'd allow it without Practiced Spellcaster, but not until at least ecl6). |
| dog4509-15-06, 10:42 PM | Oh, i wasnt talking about using PS on the SLA feat. I was talking about adding it to either beguiler or warlock in post 58. |
| Surreal09-16-06, 12:35 AM | Ah geez, you've made edits to your old posts. Yes, this works if you apply PS to your beguiler casting. It won't work with your warlock since you need a minimum of Warlock 6 to get the charm invocation. |
| dog4509-16-06, 04:39 PM | Yeah, and the cool thing about that is that you can apply the increased caster level from mindbender to warlock, even though you used Beguiler to get into the PrC. doing so gets you another Least Invocation of your choice. If you added the increase to Beguiler it would pretty much be a waste, as you wont be progressing that spellcasting anymore. |