Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scrollreader 11-06-04, 07:32 AM	Check out the Complete Arcane Excerpt feats HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Canoy 11-06-04, 07:56 AM	Green Star Adept? Why would Artificer be a good synergy with this guy? He requires Arcane Spellcasting. But then again, he seems to turn into a contruct(just skimmed trough), so he could reach great hights with an Artificer in the party. The feat Double Wand Wielder, however, might be quite effective...Especially if you quicken before you execute the Full round action...
scrollreader 11-06-04, 08:15 AM	Er, yes. The feats, as in my above post. The class is ... meh. However, an artificer with double wand wielder can now let loose four blasts in a round (one quickened, two with his full round action, and one with action surge). If these are all twinned (and they should be) that's 24 scorching rays, or 8 lesser orbs. In addition, the Reckless wand feat allows an artificer to not only apply more metamagic, but also to get more damage, earlier (cost evens out). At level nine, you can be firing things out of your wand at CL +4 (with this feat, and wand mastery). Not too shabby, at all. :D And besides. Two fisted wandslinging is just too damn /awesome/ for the artificer not to do.
Caelic 11-06-04, 11:09 AM	Oh, my stars and garters. So let's see what we have here. Two level 9 wands of Scorching Ray, in conjunction with Double Wand Wielder, Quicken, Twin, and Energy Admixture. Wand 1: 12d6 +12d6 (EA) +12d6 (twin) Quickened Wand 1: 12d6 +12d6 (EA) +12d6 (twin) Wand 2: 12d6 +12d6 (EA) + 12d6 (twin) Groovy! We're up to 108d6...and if the character also has Reckless Wand Wielder, we can do that with a wand of as low as CL7.
ramdeath 11-06-04, 11:21 AM	Here comes the nerf bat wham whap whop
Caelic 11-06-04, 11:41 AM	Actually, ramdeath, I think they've written themselves into a corner. Short of completely rewriting large sections of the Artificer, I don't see how they can nerf this. Most of the "Divine metamagic" style feats are heading for the old "Can't produce a spell of higher level than you could normally cast" nerf. That doesn't WORK with the Artificer, though, because the Artificer doesn't cast spells--and more to the point, the spells are coming from an item, not from him. ANY spell is technically "of a higher level than he could normally cast," and it's entirely possible for him to throw spells from a wand or staff that are considerably higher level than, say, his highest level of infusions. So: applying the usual nerf to the Artificer doesn't work...and that's without taking into account the Metamagic Item infusion. I just don't see how they can nerf the Artificer without starting almost from scratch.
ramdeath 11-06-04, 11:46 AM	Actually, ramdeath, I think they've written themselves into a corner. Short of completely rewriting large sections of the Artificer, I don't see how they can nerf this. Most of the "Divine metamagic" style feats are heading for the old "Can't produce a spell of higher level than you could normally cast" nerf. That doesn't WORK with the Artificer, though, because the Artificer doesn't cast spells--and more to the point, the spells are coming from an item, not from him. ANY spell is technically "of a higher level than he could normally cast," and it's entirely possible for him to throw spells from a wand or staff that are considerably higher level than, say, his highest level of infusions. So: applying the usual nerf to the Artificer doesn't work...and that's without taking into account the Metamagic Item infusion. I just don't see how they can nerf the Artificer without starting almost from scratch. Remember how to took away the 25% 25% 25% 25% = no gp and xp cost to make items? Anyway, this is how I think this will be nerfed. Wield 2 wands yes but only allow the 2nd wand to be shot once. Either that or remove the feat entirely. Maybe they wanted Eberron to outmatch the Realms brokeness I don't know :P
Caelic 11-06-04, 11:50 AM	Well, sure. They could just take away Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Item entirely. That would be about the only way they could nerf them.
ramdeath 11-06-04, 11:54 AM	wonder who was responsible for this mess anyway :P I don't know, it just seems like they beta tested artificer for 2 seconds and figured it would work nicely.
Tealgorthian 11-06-04, 12:42 PM	This means I have to rework the feat progression it took me 30 minutes to get right, doesnt it?
ramdeath 11-06-04, 12:47 PM	This means I have to rework the feat progression it took me 30 minutes to get right, doesnt it? Well it all depends whether your dm allows billions of dice of damage to be delt in a single round by all the players. As it stands, I wouldn't allow this in my campaign
Mucknuggle 11-06-04, 01:04 PM	Most of the "Divine metamagic" style feats are heading for the old "Can't produce a spell of higher level than you could normally cast" nerf. Where are you getting this from?
Kabol 11-06-04, 01:29 PM	Dont firget bout your Homi. Maybe its just me, But I think they are one of the Cooler things bout Artificer that people always seem forget about. You can at 20th lvl - for a rather small cost have 18HD constructs. And have as many as you can afford. With a spell or 2 on them then can be Combat Monsters - Adding temendosely to a artificers dmg output - aswell giving the group another tank (and can fill in other rolls) Messenger Homi let you keep in contact with others while your out in the field. and since they can speak - can use comand word magic items < always give them a Comand word items with healing spells > Flitchers can scout dungeons ahead of the party - disarming traps/tracking badguys. Wrights can work on item creation while the party sleeps. Defenders can guard while the party sleeps - as well as tank and deal dmg. They really are Tremendously powerful - but noone seems to use them to any real extent.
Tempest Stormwind 11-06-04, 01:37 PM	What about working in Action Surge? The first I heard of this build used Action Surge to fire one of the wands again, courtesy of Scrollreader: The gist of it goes like this, though I can't find the link. Level 1 : Quicken Spell, Twin Spell Level 3 : Energy Substitution: Sonic Level 4 : Energy Admixture: Sonic Level 6 : Action Surge Level 8 : Craft: Contingent Spell (Or whatever) Level 9 : Wand Mastery You make a wand of scorching ray at caster level nine. Wand mastery means you up the caster level of any wand you wield by two, which means you're firing off rays at CL 11. You use your third (and higher) level infusions for 'Metamagic Item'. Put Quicken, Twin, Admix on the wand. Now you go blast things. As your quickened action, you fire off a twinned, admixed sonic scorching ray (you can use Metamagic Spell trigger for free with Energy Sub) for 6 rays, each doing 8d6 points of damage. (48d6). Now, on your standard action, you fire off another volley (96d6). Then you spend two AP for an action surge, to do /another/ shot. (144d6). This is all sonic damage. You'll be making 18 attack rolls, so odds are that you'll miss once or twice. Ultimately, however, that's a moot point. :D EDIT: Using your move action to moon your enemies at some point during this is optional, but recommended. We won't be able to combine Dual Wand Weilder, Reckless Wand Weilder, and Wand Mastery by level 9 (thanks to getting Craft Wand at 7th level), but whichever two you don't choose could easily be your later feats. Ramdeath: I'm assuming you read the errata about them never intending to stack the feats. I still have two points on the reductions beyond this, though: 1) 25% reductions done four times does not mean a total cost of 0, it means a total cost of 31.64% (0.75^4). The upside, though, is that this is applied to the cost (which is half of the market price) -- meaning that you would pay a whopping 15.8% of the market price. 2) The way I read both Magical Artisan and Exceptional Artisan, they wouldn't change the XP cost at all. You still pay 1/25 of the market price in XP. If you have Exceptional Artisan, though, you don't pay 1/2 the market price in raw materials -- you pay 37.5% of the market price in raw materials (a 25% reduction on 1/2 the price). This doesn't alter your XP cost. In fact, only Legendary Artisan can modify that. It also does NOT alter the cost itself (you just pay 75% of it) -- which means it doesn't make them build faster, either. You see? You aren't actually REDUCING the market price. You're just getting more bang for your gold pieces, which doesn't make it any easier on your XP or your craft time (any more than Exceptional Artisan (which speeds up your build time) lets you pay 75% of the price, since you're only building for three-quarters the time).
ramdeath 11-06-04, 02:27 PM	What about working in Action Surge? The first I heard of this build used Action Surge to fire one of the wands again, courtesy of Scrollreader: We won't be able to combine Dual Wand Weilder, Reckless Wand Weilder, and Wand Mastery by level 9 (thanks to getting Craft Wand at 7th level), but whichever two you don't choose could easily be your later feats. Ramdeath: I'm assuming you read the errata about them never intending to stack the feats. I still have two points on the reductions beyond this, though: 1) 25% reductions done four times does not mean a total cost of 0, it means a total cost of 31.64% (0.75^4). The upside, though, is that this is applied to the cost (which is half of the market price) -- meaning that you would pay a whopping 15.8% of the market price. 2) The way I read both Magical Artisan and Exceptional Artisan, they wouldn't change the XP cost at all. You still pay 1/25 of the market price in XP. If you have Exceptional Artisan, though, you don't pay 1/2 the market price in raw materials -- you pay 37.5% of the market price in raw materials (a 25% reduction on 1/2 the price). This doesn't alter your XP cost. In fact, only Legendary Artisan can modify that. It also does NOT alter the cost itself (you just pay 75% of it) -- which means it doesn't make them build faster, either. You see? You aren't actually REDUCING the market price. You're just getting more bang for your gold pieces, which doesn't make it any easier on your XP or your craft time (any more than Exceptional Artisan (which speeds up your build time) lets you pay 75% of the price, since you're only building for three-quarters the time). Ya I've seen your calculations in another thread. Good work :)
JosephKell 11-07-04, 01:35 PM	I am with Caelic on his statement about Divine Metamagic. It only makes sense that you can't use it to increase its virtual spell level above what you can normally cast. Having a Maximized Flamestrike at level 7 is rather frightening.
Caelic 11-07-04, 01:49 PM	I don't think the "cannot increase spells above the normal maximum level" ruling has ever made it into any reliable errata, but there have been a couple of CustServ responses to that effect. (Yes, I KNOW that if you ask CustServ twice, you'll get three different opinions.) I suspect that it'll eventually make its way into wider circulation...but, again, this sort of ruling simply wouldn't work for the Artificer.
iN.fuSioN 11-07-04, 04:51 PM	i really dont think a maximized flame strike is frightening at level 7 AT ALL. Considering you are only doing 42 points of damage to more often than not a single target who will get a reflex save for half damage and can further negate more damage by fire resistance... Nah... i don't think it frightens anyone, except a wizard or a low hd character. On the other hand, a maximized shivering touch can be REALLY frightening... Can you say instant death to anything that has dex 18 or lower? Take that nasty dragon down in one round... :D
scaryfroman 11-08-04, 11:00 PM	Back on the Eberron boards, KB said that he is not thrilled about the feat, and that it is a key feature of the "Cannith Wand Adept" PrC from Sharn: City of Towers. It probably wasn't designed with Eberron, the Artificer, or Metamagic Spell Trigger in mind, which makes the feat much less useful. Adding the aforementioned items into the equation, though, breaks it. I would highly suggest disallowing it in an Eberron game.
Tealgorthian 11-08-04, 11:04 PM	Hrm. Persistant Cloudkill and Persistant Forcecage? Looks like more fun than rollong a ton of d6s.
scrollreader 11-08-04, 11:05 PM	Well, Keith baker also said he'd allow it. :rolleyes: If you read the whole response. He just said he'd limit it to PCs (who are already exceptional individuals) or certain highly trained magic special forces. Which is about where it sits for me. If the man who designed the setting allows it, I'm pretty sure my game can handle it. :P
boytbpc 01-01-05, 05:13 AM	Messenger Homi let you keep in contact with others while your out in the field. and since they can speak - can use comand word magic items < always give them a Comand word items with healing spells > Homunculus' can not speak which makes them a little less useful, but you are right they still are wicked nice. Boytbpc
scrollreader 01-01-05, 05:57 AM	Messenger Homonuclei are specifically allowed to speak, and it's the /creator/ speaking through them. Read the description in the ECSB.
boytbpc 01-01-05, 10:04 PM	Messenger Homonuclei are specifically allowed to speak, and it's the /creator/ speaking through them. Read the description in the ECSB. Wow. I just got ECSB and haven't made it to the monsters section yet. That makes the Artificer even more crazy. Thanks for correcting me! Boytbpc