Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arzair 12-18-06, 01:39 PM	Hello Everyone, I am a relative newbie here on these forums, and thought I would start off by thanking you, not only for expanding the way the game is played, but for thinking out of the box as well. With that being said, I could use your help. As the title says, I would appreciate some input on a 17th level caster build. We are currently in the Forgotten Realms setting. I am a male moon elf, with: 14 str 16 dex 16 con (thank you manual of bodliy health) 23 int (headband of intellext +4) 18 cha (Pink and Green Ioun stone) I have 5 levels in Wizard, and was hoping to get some Archmage abilities as well. I have enough XP to get to 17th level. I really casting spells, and would like to optimize that aspect as much as I can. I also have 250,000 to spend on items. This is what happens when your buddies keep playing while you go away to college for a while. Not that it matters, but this Character has a very noble background, he and 5 of the other PC's are brothers. Sons of the Coronal of Myth Drannor (before the fall) we are currently on Evermeet, although we are about to leave. I have an adult Gold Dragon, whose name is Raurin. He is a savage. Please help me decide what road my character should walk down. I could take 17th level wizard, but with all the amazing builds and their gamebreaking capabilities, I really think that I could do better. So please, help me crash the game... the reason I want to do this is one you can all understand. My buddies think I suck at the game, and need to prove them wrong.. help if you can, any advice is appreciated. thank you in advance.. Arzair
vylikas 12-18-06, 01:57 PM	Why would you want to crash the game? A game is supposed to be fun. If you try and ruin the entire game for them by breaking it with some infinite loop then it just makes it an unpleasant experience for everyone involved. You say your buddies think you "suck" and you want to prove them wrong. First of all, you don't need to totally destroy the game to prove your "DnD mojo". Just having a competent character will do, and a wizard is a far more than competent character. Besides... if you're ripping off stuff from the optimization boards, then it's not really your "DnD Mojo" is it? Second of all, if your buddies are playing DnD in such an egotistical and competitive manner that they look down upon new players instead of trying to teach them to get better at the game, then you need to get new buddies. DnD is a cooperative game... the party members work together as a group and the DM is supposed to make each player shine, even if they don't know the rules that well. If anything, gamecrashers are the ones that... well, crash the game. Most of the insane stuff you see on the optimization challenge boards are purely theoretical: the authors want to play around with the system and see what it's capable of, but they'll usually never actually PLAY it in a real game. If you still want to crash the game though, and since it's forgotten realms: make a wizard/incantatrix/archmage using persistified metamagic and so forth. Just look through the optimization challenge board and you'll find all sorts of nasty spell combos that break the game in two.
Thesion 12-18-06, 02:13 PM	First, without any dubious tricks, PrC's, and any optimization attempts, be aware that a simple 17th-level wizard will get you 9th level spells. That, in theory, should be enough power already. Besides, DnD isn't a game that should be broken, but played...and with a caster, you're above the normal power curve anyway.
GaffeR 12-18-06, 02:23 PM	Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 2* *Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping or Spell Power Get yourself a big +30 competency item for Spellcraft, Empower, Persistent, Quicken. Persist your buffs for free. Extraordinary Spell aim + AMF Persisted = the real anti-debuff. Arcane Mastery + Assay SR handles your SR issues. buy a Tome of Int +5 at the first possible opportunity. Otherworldly will let you Polymorph into outsiders, which is fun. Think Black Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio). What? He said he wanted it crashed.
Judging Eagle 12-18-06, 02:35 PM	Remember to scribe scrolls. You're level 17.... which means you have; or rather should have a near infinte amount of wealth in terms of mundane items and/or magical items. However, no magical item worth more than 15,000 GP however, mundane items come in sizes of 25,000 gp each. So, if you want to have an insane amount of bling that you got from chain-binding a bunch of Efreeti or making Deals with Noble Djinni or asking Elder Earth elementals to give you giant rubies, onyxes, diamonds, emeralds and sapphires in exchange for you making it cool weapons or gear (mattock/maul of the titans?); you can. Yeah, 'very high level' wizards make deals (or enslave) outsiders that can grant them wishes or wealth all the time. Note: High level character = anything with a class level in a non-NPC class. Really. Very high level is encrouching on epic-level capability. All of the above is a standard level 11 wizard benchmark, in case anyone says you can't or it's not possible. So, by level 17, you'll have bling out the ass, a powerful steed (or cheapo flying carpet) and any number of cheap staffs and wands. Carry staffs that have spells that use more than one charge; the staff of Horrid Wilting that uses 5 charges per casting (10 shots total) costs less than the wand of Flaming Sphere with 50 charges. So, get 10-shot staffs of no-xp 9th lvl spells, cause you know, for the heck of it. Look up www.crystalkeep.com and print out the wizard spells .pdf from that site. It should be noted that you technically have and know all of the spells from there and probably have at least 5 to 20 scrolls of each spell. Since those scrolls don't cost more than 15,000 gp each. Swanky, huh? Make sure that the "dumb-ass-melee" PC in your party has max ranks in Proffession (Groom: Wizard's long hair). He's going to need to be good at something aside from taking hits that your Balor-slave doesn't want to take. I also reccomend a cleric cohort, for healing and uh, cool buffs. Also to bring along some giant fresh-killed zombies or skeletons (a zombie made from a freshly-killed creature isn't going to rot, you know? So you can have a wyvern-zombie to carry you and your cleric assistant). Oh, I'm not even using non-core material here; if you want to, you can even pick up 'cleric' spells (learn them from Elder Nagas) for ***** and giggles. Just be sure to meekly ask the DM if "Cyborg Santa Claus with his army of jet-pack equipped christmas elf marines. Flanked by all of Odin's Valkyries lead into battle by Thor himself on his goat-drawn flying warchariot. With Gandalf the White leading the combined armies of Nuemor, Gondor, Rohain and Mordor as the reserve force. With; perhaps; every single one of the Empire of Man's Adeptus Astartes (aka. Space Marines) both Loyal Chapters and Traitor legion as the initial strike force" is going to face you today? Or, ask "if the combined forces of Cormyr, Netheril, Waterdeep, Undermountain, Silverymoon and Thay are going to oppose me today"? Yeah, yeah and yeah. Oh, btw, I hate the FR. Mostly b/c it has enough Epic level characters to run... not a football team, but a whole football league. But of course, none of these epic-level characters can actually accomplish anything. Meaning they must either be all blind, or the authors for the setting are the worst sort of fool. That was a fun rant. :D Edit: Also, to the two people who posted above me, a merrry christmas ******** to you and your short posts. >:O Although it's my fault for taking too long to write this. :(
Hyfigh 12-18-06, 02:49 PM	I don't really know if this is such a good idea for you. If your friends are telling you that you aren't good at playing the game (I presume they mean you're not good at making strong characters or getting the most out of those characters abilities) I can't imagine how doing something game-breaking will help. Really, if you aren't good at a console game, does entering a cheat code make you better? I personally adivse you read the rules and figure out what works well together. Maybe a couple of nasty combo's for when things get scary, but as most have already said, a straight wizard should be enough to get you through the game without any problems.
ravenkith 12-18-06, 03:00 PM	Breaking the game? Yeah, it can be done. The wiz 5/inc 10/arch2 would get you there for sure. But considering you just got back from college and all, breaking the game your first day back is probably a bad move. Perhaps you should try something that is powerful, but doesn't render the other characters useless. Depending on how much leeway you actually have, you could theoretically go Wizard 3/MAster specialist 10/Initiate of the sevenfold veil 4 or wizard 3/master specialist 7/Initiatiate of the sevenfold veil 7. Either would give you a lot of power, especially if you go abjurer, without breaking the game beyond all recognition, because the abjurer, while capable of damage-dealing, is much more focused on defensive and preventative magics. Sure, while you could toss around the time stopped maximized delayed fireball/meteor swarm crap with the Incantantrix, the "Master Veiler" (as first proposed by Caeliic, all rights reserved), would, instead of making you the one and only game breaker, if used correctly, turn all your buddies into the "game breakers". What do you really want? To prove you can make an uberpowerful character and ruin the game for everyone by thoroughly breaking it, thus alienating all of them? Or make a character that makes everyone else's characters better, that's hard as heck to kill, and brings the whole party to a new level of cheese just by being present? Which will make you popular? Which will **** people off? Y'know, just askin'. Somethin' to think about , anyways.
The_Mad_Linguist 12-18-06, 04:19 PM	Um... he wants a gamecrashing character... In the Forgotten Realms. Home of Pun-Pun.
Arzair 12-18-06, 05:30 PM	Hey, Thank you for your responses, I didn't expect this much traffic, But I am very pleased! Judging Eagle - Thank you for your lengthy, but well thought out response! It was much appreciated! Scribe Scroll was something I had overlookeed as a waste - not anymore! Ok, some answers to the questions above: 1. Perhaps my wording was incorrect. I don't want a Pun-Pun, But I would like to pull off some insane combos. My friends are all saying how their fighters are so much more powerful than wizards now that a book with something seven swords or something gives them sweet moves... 2. I understand that perhaps the Gamecrashing thing was a bit much, D&D is one of my favorite things to do. As it has been said before many times on these boards, Powergaming is just another style of gaming. I Love to roleplay, but that isn't a test of the character so much as a test of the player. Plain and simple: I want to have a character that when the **** hits the fan he doesn't throw lightning bolts, he throes Zeus. There is a Mage Fair coming up and they all said that my Character Can only come with them if I win the spellbattle tournament. Keep in mind that I do have an Adult Gold Dragon. And trust me, with these guys, and the DM who is running it, the more power I have, the more popular I will be. I like the Archmage idea, although, I don't like that I don't gain a caster level when I take it. Is there any way around this? Or, if not, what kind of items would help me boost the number of spells that I could cast?
Hanniball 12-18-06, 05:51 PM	1. Perhaps my wording was incorrect. I don't want a Pun-Pun, But I would like to pull off some insane combos. My friends are all saying how their fighters are so much more powerful than wizards now that a book with something seven swords or something gives them sweet moves... Ah yes, the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Since it's release it has played a key role in placing melee combatants within reach of spellcasting might. I don't think it's quite made them as powerful, but that's open to interpretation. Either way, you should have no problem keeping pace with them (if not far surpassing them) 2. I understand that perhaps the Gamecrashing thing was a bit much, D&D is one of my favorite things to do. As it has been said before many times on these boards, Powergaming is just another style of gaming. I Love to roleplay, but that isn't a test of the character so much as a test of the player. This is a much more reasonable approach than, "I want to make my DM cry;" an unfortunately fairly regular request in these parts. Plain and simple: I want to have a character that when the **** hits the fan he doesn't throw lightning bolts, he throes Zeus. There is a Mage Fair coming up and they all said that my Character Can only come with them if I win the spellbattle tournament. Are you aware of the parameters of this Mage Fair? With specific goals in mind we can provide insight into methods of obtaining said goals. Keep in mind that I do have an Adult Gold Dragon. Ok, is this dragon under your absolute control or does it have it's own free will? Are you lawful good as well? I simply cannot see how your group looks upon your character as weak with a fuggin' adult dragon as a pet. This thing could tear them to shreds if they're only 17th level. I like the Archmage idea, although, I don't like that I don't gain a caster level when I take it. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Archmage doesn't progress spellcasting. Perhaps you were looking at Heirophant?
Arzair 12-18-06, 06:04 PM	Hanniball - you are correct - I just pulled out my DMG and the Archmage does still gain spellcasting... that was just me dusting off the cobwebs that college gave me. Thank you for your input, "The Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" yes, this is the book that they believe makes spellcasters weaker than their characters. I haven't had time to look at the book, but I understand the concepts. Raurin (my closest companion and advisor/friend/familiar/cohort) (the gold dragon) - is abolutely loyal to me. He would die to protect me. He is my means of transportation(I can ride him), when in a hurry, or he travels on foot with me in the shape of a sun elf. I am lawful good, although sometimes Raurin and I converse on the finer points of waht constitutes good and evil, including that sometimes the law is not always the good in the world... (every so often we will do something that is considered chaotic good) The Mage Fair is like the one mentioned in Magic of Faerun. With the Spell Battle rules listed there. Subdual damage only, no pre-buffing. Items are looked down on. However, it is more than that, if I win the Contest, I still need to be able to survive their adventuring, which is very fast paced. So with almost unlimited resources to pull from, what items should I equip to maximize my Survivability/Capability? Also, has anyone developed a "best battle spells list"?
GaffeR 12-18-06, 06:09 PM	Seriously, see the Incantatrix advice I posted above.
Arzair 12-18-06, 06:14 PM	"Think Black Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio)." What is this GaffeR? I don't have this book? Can you summarize for me?
GaffeR 12-18-06, 06:17 PM	Oooh that's an abusive little trick you probably don't want to use. Basically you Polymorph into the thing with the highest Int you can find, then apply your Enhancement and Inherent bonuses. Black Ethergaunts have 30 something int Base. Also, persisting buffs for free can be pretty abusive; as can using an Antimagic Field in conjunction with Extraordinary Spell aim. Your call though.
Lilt 12-18-06, 06:37 PM	My initial suggestion was to go a booster character, but in the light of your second post I'm less sure. Perhaps some smackdown tricks are in order, and there's no need to hold back they're using ToB material. Tome of Battle: The book of Nine Swords has a lot of powerful stuff in it, but an optimised wizard can still usually probably beat an optimised ToB character. Now, you say that they accuse you of sucking at the game. Unlike vylikas here, however, I don't consider it to be using someone else's mojo unless you go all-out and carbon-copy a build down to spells, feats, skills, everything. There are plenty of guides and compilations here which even the best COers use, as it makes no sense to trawl through every book for that one spell/feat which really makes the build. Your D&D CO abilities will grow with reading and play... 'Experience' you might say, or XP in D&D terms. For now, perhaps we can point you in some directions to help you optimise your character? My contributions: Polymorph (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846) and it's bigger cousin Shapechange (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=226959) have long been staples for the aspiring mage. Using them, you can attain ability scores which will have your friends think twice. This power doesn't last forever, but there are ways round that. You can use Incantatrix to apply Persistant Spell to Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) to make it last 24 hours. You can also use PAO (Polymorph Any Object) to turn yourself into a Black Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio) for a long time (either Permenant or 1 week, depends on your DM's interpretation), replacing your int score with its int score of 31! (which you should probably boost to 37 with a +6 headband) Another idea is to go for versatility, and teh ability to target an opponent's weakness. Have a look in the XPH/SRD at the Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) spell. If you boost your caster level high somehow, then that gives you an insane manifester level and lots of power points. With an insane manifester level, your save DCs can get high too. With a perfectly reasonable caster level of 19 (The Orange Prism ioun stone and ring of arcane might (CA)), you can throw ego whips that do 5d4 charisma damage, will save DC 20+Int for half. You can also do 3 of them from a single casting of Mental Pinnacle! Note that 0 charisma makes someone helpless and thus unable to do anything, all it takes is a CDG.
Arzair 12-18-06, 06:54 PM	Thank you Lilt - I hadn't thought about going a little "psionic" - ego whip (sounds just like the kind of thing they need!) Polymorph and Shapechange sound like absolute must haves. Mental Pinnacle sounds like something to keep up the sleeve as well... I think we are getting somewhere! OK, so a question... Jade Phoenix Mage? I heard this thrown around somewhere, but I don't know where it comes from. Could you help clarify?
GaffeR 12-18-06, 06:56 PM	Tome of Battle. It's a Fighter/Mage PrC that gives 8/10 casting and Full BAB.
Blade2718 12-18-06, 07:03 PM	Jade Phoenix Mage is a 6/10 spellcasting class that has maneuvers (the new BoNS mechanic) with full BAB. If you have maneuvers and like spells, then JDM is your answer.
Lilt 12-18-06, 07:08 PM	JPM is great, but know that if you go JPM then you won't have 9th level spells yet and probably won't have them until level 20. The choice is yours, though, as going wizard is still a valid option. Oh yes, and if you're going for polymorph cheese then you might want to consider being an outsider for access to forms like Planetar. A quick/easy way may be to take the Otherworldly regional feat (PGtF) if your DM lets you, but that uses one of your feat slots which could be used in some other way. All valid options, no mojo-cramping :)
ravenkith 12-19-06, 09:45 AM	In a spell battle, I personally would go with the oft overlooked Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, as I indicated before. Remember, with 7 levels of the class, the damn thing is near immune to spells, being capable of putting up a protective veil as a reaction, even on someone else's turn. Go counterspeller, and pick up the nonlethal substitution feat (from complete arcane, I think), and just go to town with reflex and fort save based spells, while being able to ignore (usually) the best efforts of your enemies. Never overlook the usefulness of the spell assay resistance in a mage duel. As a swift action, it can be cast in addition to anyother spell you care to name, and gives you a +10 to bypass spell resistance...something you WILL be facing. Alternatively, A Mystic Theurge build utilizing the ever popular Initiate of Mystra feat (Player's Guide to Faerun) to gain the ability to cast in an antimagic field would probably own at the mage fair...and makes for a fully functional adventurer, despite the low HD. Make sure to grab improved init. I'd probably recommend something like: Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 and don't forget the divine metamagic cheese. (Complete divine, the must have feat for all clerics is Divine Metamagic: Persistant spell, especially when combined with the Nightsticks item (7500 gp ea., grants an extra 4 turn attempts a day). "Oh, you poor, poor archmage. You mean to say your pathetic spells do not function in an antimagic field? Mine do."
Farhaven 12-19-06, 01:07 PM	*shrug* If your friends are anything like mine then damage is king. Wiz 5/INcantatrix 10/Full Spellcasting 2. Orb of Fire(4th level 15d6 damage cap, no save, no SR) Arcane Thesis(PHB2) it and go Dragonborn. It's a ritual transformation from Races of the Dragon, +2 Con -2 Dex, nothing else too special, well, actually Dragonborn(Mind) would give you 30ft blindsense which is nice. Take Twin Spell, Empower Spell, Energy Sub(fire), Energy Admix(fire), and Searing Spell, \and Quicken Spell. Consider Practical Metamagic(Twin Spell) as well. So, cast in a 9th level slot (4th Base+Searing(0)+Energy Admix(2)+Twin(1)+Empower(0)+Quicken(2)) You have a Two Copies of a spell that deal 45d6 damage... that's your swift action cast spell for the round. It won't beat an IotSV, but then again most damage is king people ignore the real defensive builds. But being able to open up combat with 180d6 fire damage that ignores resistance and deals half damage to immune creatures... well, that will win a couple of duels. By no means the be all end all of spellcasting, but it sounds like it might make your friends think twice about irritating your wizard. I am VERY tired, I am sure my grammar is poor and the fortmatting of my paragraph is nearly unreadable. I apologize, but I'm too tired to do anything about it.
Arzair 12-20-06, 04:50 PM	ravenkith - WOW I had overlooked the Initiate of Mystra feat - thinking that this might be the way to go ... but then Farhaven comes and shows me this insane damage dealer - So one quick Question... Is the damage dealer a one hit wonder? can you explain some of his other capabilities to me? As I see it, looks like a person able to cast spells inside an antimagic sphere has the advantage of not being just a one hit wonder... Also looks like I am going to be starting at 25th level - long story any suggestions for the epic build? either building off of a wiz 5/inc 10/arch5 or the blaster or the mytic theurge? really I want to do them all!!!!
Arzair 12-20-06, 07:54 PM	:bump:
Animae_Draconum 12-20-06, 11:46 PM	Or.... somthing I discovered while in a slightly intoxicated state the other night Could go Cleric 5, Dweomerkeeper 10, Contemplative 2 and use divine metamagic and night sticks on the following combo for a fairly stupid effect and have 9th level spells. The combo if persistant makes you immune to almost everything. Initiate of Mystra (Feat, Players Guide to Faerun) Antimagic Field (Spell, PHB) Starmantle (Spell, BoED) A_D
Hanniball 12-21-06, 12:07 AM	Ravenkith's got the right idea for this mage battle. Another option is using your Archmage's Mastery of Shaping ability to remove yourself from the effects of an Antimagic Field. Using the Orb spells from Complete Arcane allows damage output while remaining nigh-invulnerable to magic. The Orb slinger that Farhaven posted is a relatively one trick wonder, but it still has full spellcasting so it isn't completely focused. Personally, I dislike Arcane Thesis with a passion (except maybe with Enervation) Such versatility as the wizard provides should never be dwindled by an extreme focus on one spell in particular. Plus, it gets really boring casting the same spells every combat. As far as going epic, just keep taking Incantatrix. Lots of bonus metamagic feats and extra uses of Instant Metamagic are almost too good to pass up. The combo if persistant makes you immune to almost everything. Initiate of Mystra (Feat, Players Guide to Faerun) Antimagic Field (Spell, PHB) Starmantle (Spell, BoED) Toss in a ring of evasion for complete immunity to weapon attacks. Either way...just my 2 cp
Animae_Draconum 12-21-06, 12:34 AM	Personally, I dislike Arcane Thesis with a passion (except maybe with Enervation) Such versatility as the wizard provides should never be dwindled by an extreme focus on one spell in particular. Plus, it gets really boring casting the same spells every combat. I use Arcane Thesis for Greater Arcane Fusion and its lesser mainly for spell variety in combat but with rapid metamagic you can pull off some seriously shady stuff if your DM allows for the spell level to be reduced below its original level and for you to apply metamagic to the fused spells as long as they will still meet the requirements after modified. If you cant see the combo it grants you infinity 4th level or lower spells from one spell slot. I did this once to save my party from a very bad situation and it has since been banned for good reason. A_D
Mordar 12-21-06, 12:48 AM	just use timestop then gate, if your fellow players think you are a incompetent wizard that will prove them wrong :p
Lilt 12-21-06, 04:22 AM	If you're going epic then remember that the heat is off, or at-least less on, as far as gettign 9th level spells is concerned. You may want to consider going a multi-threat and using your epic levels to complete both progressions. I'd also have a look at abusing the epic spellcasting feat, particularly if you're going multi-threat arcane/divine and thus might have 2 sets of epic spells. If you back-up a wizard/cleric with 24 ranks in knowledge (nature) then you get another set of epic spell slots, for a total of 6. Seriously, I can't find the link right now but there are a number of insane things you can do with epic spellcasting. I can't remember all of them, but one trick I can remember is to take leadership/epic leadership and have your followers all being casters contributing spell slots. If your friends think that wizards suck then take yourself and your ~200 wizard followers and work-out a perma-buff epic spells with otherwise insane DCs. Hell, create your own crazily powerful species using the Origin of the Species spell as a base (but reduce the casting time to 11 minutes and remove the XP cost, replacing them with the requirement for 200 wizards to each use 200 1st level spells) Oh yeah, and once you've designed and created your own insanely powerful race: Polymorph into it :D For added sillyness, have any of your level 6+ followers take leadership.
ravenkith 12-21-06, 09:15 AM	See the problem is, he doesn't want to get kicked out of the campaign; he just wants to prove he can make a character that can be effective and dangerous. His proving ground is the mage fair. If he can't get through that, he'll lose a lot of respect. That's why I went with the Init of mystra trick. I mean, most wizards are going to be shut down cold by the AMF alone (Especially direct damage specialists). The only problem is, now you're planning on getting into epic levels, you're in a situation where you have to start thinking about how you want to progress...and mystic theurge is...well, 'not good' at epic levels seems like a bit of an understatement. Personally, seeing as your focus is arcane might, based off your original concept, I'm inclined to grab levels of Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage), and then migrate into Archmage (DMG) once Epic, to get some nifty toys. I really like the idea of being able to cast your abjuration spells with free metamagics, not to mention the improved HD, BAB, and bonuses to ac from specific spells. Add in the Archmage capabilities, and you really start to get interesting-mastery of shaping, arcane reach, and mastery of counterspelling draw the eye here. Alternatively, Taking Incantatrix could prove useful... or Mage of the Arcane Order. If you want to go the other route, however, Dweomerkeeper, no matter how cheesy, is always fun. True necromancer is interesting, but usually problematic. Or there is the Master Specialist from complete mage, which would turn your abjurations (assuming that's what you specialized in) into potential game-breakers, especially if combined with the Archmages Mastery of Counterspelling capability. Cleric 3/Martial Wizard(Abjurer) 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Master Specialist 6/Archmage 2 Pick up Arcane Reach and Mastery of Counterspelling. Make sure to take the feat Reactive Counterspell (I think that's the name). Then you can combine the persistent AMF trick with the counterspelling capabilities of the archmage to essentially, become immune to all magical attacks, and capable of turning the really nasty ones (disintegrate, for example) back upon your enemy. You can also heal out to 30 ft, meaning your allies don't have to be subjected to the AMF. Worse yet, all of your abjurations (dispel magic!) are souped up crazy good... just a thought...but basically, if you go this route, and memorize force cage/wall of force/otilukes telekinetic sphere to put around yourself, you become utterly immune. Sure, you're still your fragile little squishy wizard self. But now you've got a really friggin' hard shell. Question: (it's never come up before...) anyone know how epic spell interact with an AMF?
Lilt 12-21-06, 11:36 AM	Why would he get kicked out of the campaign? They're accusing him of making poor characters. How can they kick someone who makes poor characters out of the campaign for being too powerful? The point is that until they say "OK. We get the point. You can make powerful characters using stuff other than ToB, and you don't make bad characters after all" he can use pretty-much whatever he wants. And even if they did make the above admission, why would ge get kicked? Surely the first stage of any DM encountering soemthing too powerful is to Nerf/Ban rather than throw the player who took it to his table out the window? Once they do start banning things, you've won the 'can't make powerful characters' debait full stop. If anyone argues with you then just suggest that their favourite maneuver from ToB might be ban-worthy also. Meanwhile you can just re-make your character without the bits that they'ev banned, and still stay fairly powerful.
ravenkith 12-21-06, 01:02 PM	Enh. I guess I didn't get clear enough. 1. Having xyzomzg followers is time consuming and annoying to other members of the group who do not have any. Then proceeding to abuse said followers to achieve ultimate power is more so. It works, it's a great strategy, but it's annoying, and disrupts the flow of the game, which, given they are all hack and slashers, probably doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of downtime for research, etc, regardless. 2. Epic level spells render the melee characters useless in a party 90% of the time. This is annoying, and is a direct result of the presence of his character. 3. The dm will have substantially more difficulty in presenting a challenge to the party, as he now has to worry about providing defenses against offensive magic. This will annoy him, and is coming directly from the character's presence. People tend to accept the simplest solutions: they can't ban the entire character....too much like hard work to figure out what's actually driving the brokenness. Keeping in mind that the more extreme the offense, the more justifiable extreme replies become. So they boot the player. Even if they do go the banning route, wouldn't banning followers, epic level spells, and magic kind of just turn the wizard into a crappy fighter anyway? Far better, in my opinion, to subtly affect the entire game, and make all of the players happy, while only annoying the DM, by keeping the use of epiic spells to a minimum, while enhancing the playability and effectiveness of other's characters, and ensuring your character's own survival, and, lest we forget, yours as a player. Remember, it pretty much takes the whole group to put a boot to someone's butt. And when everyone's ****** at you for screwing up their hobby, it makes em a mob...complete with pitchforks and torches.
Lilt 12-21-06, 01:54 PM	I can't say from personal knowledge, I don't know Arzair's group, but that reaction is beyond what I'd call 'believeable'. They are, after-all, revelling in their easy-cheesy ToB characters. I mean: My friends are all saying how their fighters are so much more powerful than wizards now that a book with something seven swords or something gives them sweet moves... What I'm suggesting is a quick reality-check for them, and I don't think it would cause that much conflict. To address your specific points: Followers are likely to stay back 'at base' thus out of the way apart from in downtime. Followers who adventure with a 25th level character should just start-off dead. Epic Spellcasting can render melee fighters moot sometimes, but they don't need to be used in this way. The OP is also wanting to make a point, which epic spellcasting most definately can do. We're also talking about ToB-cheesed characters who are significantly more capable than your normal sword&board. Many of the standard creatures have SR coming out of their ears at epic anyway, and every GM before has had to deal with offensive magic. Why shouldn't this one? They're already having to deal with offensive magical/quasi-magical abilities from the ToB characters. As for them throwing a player out of the game as they can't figure out what's broken with the character... :rofl: I can't even begin to take that suggestion seriously.
ravenkith 12-21-06, 03:33 PM	While not realistic, it's a danger that is being courted in this situation. Remember, this guy's been gone for a while. He can't **** everybody off after just coming back: it's a bad idea, in general. But if the OP believes the risk is negligble, he can choose to do what he wishes. In my personal opinion, I'd go for something that demonstrates competence & has an "oh, cool" effect, rather than instilling an intense jealousy and resentment. Don't underestimate the pettiness and viciousness that hides in the human heart.
Lilt 12-21-06, 04:13 PM	You're seeing a lot more jealousy and resentment than I am. These are a bunch of powergamers, probably also optimisers to some extent, who're willing to play with ToB characters at epic levels. You would suggest that Arzair shouldn't use one of the most powerful tools available to him (Epic Spellcasting) for fear of resentment? Do you think the other players are similarly holding back? I just don't get the impression that there is any such culture going-on, and this is just as well at epic levels where pwers can vary vastly, particularly against differing opponents. I see quite the inverse happening, where the option to over-do it and make something crazy happen is a good thing. He's a wizard, after-all. He may be able to do something amazing, but he can only do it X times per day. If the rest of the party can deal with something without him expending his big guns then he should do that, but his big guns should definately be able to deal with something the party has trouble defeating.
PhaedrusXY 12-21-06, 04:19 PM	If you can find the "Fighter vs. Wizard" thread that was posted a month or two ago on the CO board, there is alot of good stuff in there, and I think it was all core.
The_Mad_Linguist 12-21-06, 04:29 PM	Maybe you would be interested in LoP's dirty tricks? The nasty gentleman (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=563976) can be scaled up to whatever power level you like. Or you could use nanotech (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=458721). Once you've made your point, you can scale down your power to a sane level and keep playing the same character.
Arzair 12-21-06, 09:54 PM	I like "LoP's dirty tricks" - but dont like the idea of all the symbionts...... ughhhh plus my dragon wouldn't like that either.... i have checked out some ToB stuff... and it seems if they are able to go epic with that stuff then epic spells are ok... I talked to my DM and he said that anything goes, and epic spells are okay. what is when i went mystic theurge i went half druid? instead of cleric? I am going to take archmage - some really nice abilities there... but at level 25 how can i best maximise? using unbeatable counterspells seems pretty cool, and helpful to the whole party - but the idea doesn't sit well with me for some reason here... I want to win the mage fair - which is a proving ground for my character, this I understand... But I heard them talk and say that they wanted to see who was stronger afterwards and going and battling between each other with someone else to raise the loser... How can I best maximise so that I can beat more than one of them at a time? or even be able to keep up with them speed wise... almost no downtime, little to no resting, and very fast paced combat - if i buff then half the fight is over... persistent buffs i think are key- which means incantrix wow, can someone help clean this up for me? I am in over my head.
dirkformica 12-22-06, 04:41 AM	Introducing Druid into the mix is only going to cause a new crop of ideas. Planar Shephard from Faiths of Eberron is probably the most bustigated class around right now. 10 free rounds to do whatever you want and it doesn't even take a 9th level spellslot. On a less obscenely broken level, you can always go with Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild as a dual Arcane/Druid character. Full caster, full wildshape, full animal/familar hybrid progression is nice. But the real power of the dual caster in the other scenario seemed to stem more from Initiate of Mystra allowing persistent antimagic field abuse. Full caster seems the better route to me. The Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage or Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils sound like the best bets.
ravenkith 12-22-06, 11:11 AM	mystic theurge + druid = NO. You lose the wildshaping, one of the biggest advantages of the druid class. Like I said, there's an arcane hierophant (?) PRC that combines druid + wizard, in a much more satisfying manner out there somewhere (I just can't remember where) As to the whole question of 'how much power is too much'... well, just be careful. Yes, I am a cynical person. I believe that if you give them an excuse, and no consequences, human beings will degenerate into uncivilized behavior. How can you not, after Katrina?
Lilt 12-22-06, 05:40 PM	I'll second Arcane Hierophant if you're going Druid/Wizard. [edit]Oh yes, and it's in Races of the Wild. it's basically like MT but with 4+Int skills, 3/4 BAB, d6HD, Wildshape progression, ignore ASF in nonmetallic armor, and other funky abilities: Your Animal companion becoems your familiar with the advantages of both (and no XP loss/wait if it dies), and you can cast spells centred on animals and plants you've touched rather than yourself. Although Druid/Wizard/Mystic Theurge is otherwise a big no-no, you may want to pad some levels with it for the extra spellcasting potential. Also: Ask your DM to make an epic progression for Arcane Hierophant, and hope he doesn't base it too heavily on the mystic theurge progression. Lemme see: caster level advancement 1/2 in arcane and divine, epic feats at the slowest rate of any epic class, lowest HD, and lowest skills? There are so many better options out there that it's unreal. The best abilities you'll get from Archmage are probably: Mastery of shaping (Antimagic field with a hole in it around you) Spell Power is always nice (Mental Pinnacle for 7d4 cha damage anyone?) Arcane Reach (if you have persistant spell and incantatrix 3 to persist touch range spells)
zzakk2to2 12-22-06, 08:06 PM	if you polymorph any object into say a tarrsque then polymorph any object into the same thing you are permanently that because a tarrsque is very close to a tarrsque. this will work on anything in fact turn the bbeg into a grape and eat them. also here is a great way to get people that follow you feverently and you can do it at level 1 wizard or sorcerer. here it is: Hypnosis. With this spell, a single lvl 1 Sorcerer can conquer the entire world. Seriously. I'll spare everybody the full work out, but look at it and notice that the attitude adjustment does not go away after the spell duration ends. It permanently and innately changes the way people reguard you in a specific area. Just hypnotise them and tell them to trust you. Cast it a few more times, and you can move them up to Fanatical in trusting you. Remember, someone that is fanatical about you will throw themselves in front of rampaging dragons to give you an extra second or two to escape. Just keep casting Hypnosis until the person becomes Fanatical about you overall. Move on to the next person, make fanatics out of other casters, and have them do the same. Within months you could brainwash the entire world's population of commoners into thinking you are god's gift to the world. And as the masses go, so go the nations.
Vorlir 12-23-06, 10:06 AM	The theory is fine, but a Tarrasque has far too many hd for polymorph any object.
Lilt 12-23-06, 12:33 PM	@zzakk2to2: Nice catch on the double-PAO. I've generally seen most DMs applying HD restrictions though, so I doubt Tarrasque would work, but otherwise it should work. As for Hypnosis: It's nice but you only keep the attitude adjustment with respect to the one request that you make. The request also has to be reasonable, so "help me take over the world" is probably out.
zzakk2to2 12-23-06, 06:06 PM	it wasn't my idea but take over the world would not be needed in the suggestion what would be needed is "help me hypno other people to like me". the take over the world part happens when you have 75% or so of the people fanaticly trust you and it would be a short time to take the other 25%. also even if you cant turn into a tarsque you still can morph anyone you dont like into a carrot and eat them.