Post/Author/DateTime	Post
willpower 07-21-06, 01:02 PM	I originally posted this in the general forum, but I have a couple of questions that is better for the optimization boards. Hey everyone, Avery strange occurence happened in our game tonight, and I want tosee what you guys think about it? First, I'll tell you I am playing a thematic sorceror. Most of my spells appear as if made of shadows. This is a not a feat, and changes nothing of the spells, except the appearance. So a wall of stone, appears as a wall of writhing shadow demons. This comes from the beginning of the character concept, which comes from a different system than D&D. We have several other players, as usual. Only a couple I will note. The first one, is a Werebear scout/favored soul. The second is a ranger I believe. We are 13th level now, but after tonight this has changed greatly. We went through this temple, where most of our characters met with old gods, and became associated with them. That means we are essentially their champions. As such, we were all "gifted" with a level of favored soul, whether we wanted that level or not. This right here is something that seems wrong to me, as for most other characters, this is not a huge problem. It is just another class. For someone already a favored soul this is awesome, as it provies a free level. For a wizard or sorceror like me though, it is bad, because where I had full spell progression before, now I am 14th level character, but still only a 13th level caster. Where it really changes though iss with our characters' "gifts". The werebear first of all was built slightly wrong. As the DM said they built him as if he was a +2 level equivilant, but the werebear template is supposed to be a +5 template. The gift bestowed upon him forgave the other 3 level equivilant adjustment, and negated the two he had giving him 2 other levels of favored soul. This gift, effectively gave this character, 5 extra levels of full ability. Plus the first one that was given, bringing this character to a 19th level equivilant character. The other guy was a ranger I believe, and had the halfdragon template bestowed upon him. This makes him also a 19th level equivilant character, though the 1st favored soul level we all received doesn't help him as much, it just doubles a few abilities. I don't yet know what most of everyone else's "gifts" are, but if it is anything that doesn't effect my spellcasting ability, then I will end up shortchanged, as if even if I am also brought up to 19th level equivilency, I will still only be a 13th level caster. I believe what the DM is planning on bestowing me with is the Chosen of Mystra, which is really good, but I do not know if it is good enough to compensate for being a 19th level character, but only a 13th level caster. Plus I am not even sure if I can have the Chosen of Mystra, since I am a shadow adept, which means I use the shadow weave, not the weave. What does everyone else think about this? Would having a 13th sorceror caster level, one class level that is useless to me, and being a Chosen of Mystra be about even with other 19th level characters in a campaign? If I am going to be a Chosen of Mystra, with the current build which is Sorceror 5/Shadow Adept 2/ Loremaster 6. I know with that build the character is hardly optimized. I cared more about character than optimization for him. With that in mind, in your opinions what would be good spells to take for the Chosen of Mystra bonus spells, and spells they are immune to? I am also considerring switching from the Loremaster PRC to Shadowcaster and Shadowcraft Mage, ala the Killer Gnome builds. My DM might allow that, upon seeing the character. If I were to do that, what would then be the best spells to choose for the Chosen of Mystra abilities? I am just looking for opinions, so my preference counts little here.
The_Monkey_King 07-21-06, 01:40 PM	Is there a forum for Player Therapy? I wish there was because that feels like the question you are really asking. But anyway I'll try and take a swing at both the question you asked and the question you didn't. 1: Would having a 13th sorceror caster level, one class level that is useless to me, and being a Chosen of Mystra be about even with other 19th level characters in a campaign? Chosen of Mystra is good, really good. You'd end up with 65 more hit points, immunity to a whole raft of spells, a whole bunch of extra spells, etc etc etc. It might be worth the 6 spellcasting levels, but on the whole, I'd take a pass. the loss of 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells just doesn't work for me. The truth is you wouldn't stand a chance of holding your own against a 19th level caster. On a side note: You could easily work up some flavorfull Chosen of Shar/Sharess equivalent, so that shouldn't be a problem for you. The Favored soul level is just a kick in the teeth on top of this. I know, I've done that to a player and it was meant as a lasting stigma for actions taken and choices made. 2: What does everyone else think about this? I think you need to have a heart to heart with your DM. There's a really good chance he thinks he's doing something really cool and neat. Its like getting an Axe specifically tailored to your characters background and whatnot when you have weapon focus: Long sword. Work with him, try and explain in a rational format what loss of caster level means compared to a fighter type. 1 itterative attack != a minus 6 on your dispell checks. 3: What spells? Well for flavor, true seeing almost certainly has to be on there, right? I'm also a big fan of Dispell magic and its ilk as well as the standard disintegrate and so forth. Hope this helps a little.
willpower 07-21-06, 04:42 PM	Thanks for the reply Monkey_King, I was planning on having a talk with the DM. After looking over Chosen of Mystra, I did see that it was really good, but as you point out, between the choice of being a 13th level Chosen of Mystra, and being a 19th level caster, I'd take the latter anyday. Most caster players I know, don't like taking even a 1 level dip away from spell improvement, much less 6. Mostly, I posted here for two reasons. One to vent. Two so I could see if I was being irrational, or if I could find other opinions like mine, that I could mention when I talk with him. Is there a forum for Player Therapy? I wish there was because that feels like the question you are really asking. But anyway I'll try and take a swing at both the question you asked and the question you didn't. 1: Would having a 13th sorceror caster level, one class level that is useless to me, and being a Chosen of Mystra be about even with other 19th level characters in a campaign? Chosen of Mystra is good, really good. You'd end up with 65 more hit points, immunity to a whole raft of spells, a whole bunch of extra spells, etc etc etc. It might be worth the 6 spellcasting levels, but on the whole, I'd take a pass. the loss of 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells just doesn't work for me. The truth is you wouldn't stand a chance of holding your own against a 19th level caster. On a side note: You could easily work up some flavorfull Chosen of Shar/Sharess equivalent, so that shouldn't be a problem for you. The Favored soul level is just a kick in the teeth on top of this. I know, I've done that to a player and it was meant as a lasting stigma for actions taken and choices made. 2: What does everyone else think about this? I think you need to have a heart to heart with your DM. There's a really good chance he thinks he's doing something really cool and neat. Its like getting an Axe specifically tailored to your characters background and whatnot when you have weapon focus: Long sword. Work with him, try and explain in a rational format what loss of caster level means compared to a fighter type. 1 itterative attack != a minus 6 on your dispell checks. 3: What spells? Well for flavor, true seeing almost certainly has to be on there, right? I'm also a big fan of Dispell magic and its ilk as well as the standard disintegrate and so forth. Hope this helps a little.
djinni 07-21-06, 05:05 PM	take what he gives you... 13th level sorcerer plus chosen of mystra +6 levels of crap. put your xp in a thought bottle hit yourself with 6 levels of enervation, fail the saves, when you get the XP back, make tehm sorcerer levels.
willpower 07-21-06, 05:16 PM	take what he gives you... 13th level sorcerer plus chosen of mystra +6 levels of crap. put your xp in a thought bottle hit yourself with 6 levels of enervation, fail the saves, when you get the XP back, make tehm sorcerer levels. Well, he's only giving actually, 1 level of crap. The Favored Soul level. The Chosen of Mystra, is a cool feature, like Spellfire, but I am not sure if it provides level equivilent or not. I am basing the +6 levels, to make us 19th level equivilent off of the only ones I know of that can be figured out numerically. The character getting the Werebear template for free, and the one getting the half dragon template for free. Those two figure out to 19th level equivilent. I don't know how he is going to handle the experience for it. I believe, he is just giving those for free. The trick is, making us that powerful, he will have to put us up against challenges more powerful than our experience would indicate. Doing that is where a caster will fall, because they won't have the same ability to get through SR, high enough DC's, or good enough spells to deal with. I will look at that possibility with the Favored Soul level though.
jameswilliamogle 07-21-06, 05:47 PM	I'm in a similar situation in the campaign I'm playing in. I wanted to play a straight Druid, but the DM forced multiclassing on everyone (starting level 2). So I picked up a level of Cleric, took the Planning and Time domain, and took Persistant Spell and DM: Persistant as my first level and human bonus feat. I'd still rather be a straight caster, though. Forced multiclassing = penalizing spellcasters, no doubt. Most DMs don't understand that.
JaronK 07-21-06, 06:25 PM	Try talking to the DM about letting you take that favored soul level as a Gestalt level with your standard class progression. That might solve your problem quite nicely, as it would give you a few nifty extra abilities instead of spell loss. JaronK
willpower 07-21-06, 07:00 PM	That is another idea. Thanks. I actually broght this up when he first told us we were getting the class level. He said that it was an additional level, free as part of the gift of the god. Though, even if you wanted that class, I don't think it was much of a gift, since we were nearly 14th level anyway, and I doubt he will give us equivalent experience above level 14. When I talk with him though I will mention this again as part of a proposed solution. Try talking to the DM about letting you take that favored soul level as a Gestalt level with your standard class progression. That might solve your problem quite nicely, as it would give you a few nifty extra abilities instead of spell loss. JaronK
tacoronte 07-21-06, 07:18 PM	You can also take advantage of the fact that Sorceror/Favored Soul have a good synergy in using Charisma as the spellcasting stat. Maybe you can convince your DM to allow you to enter Mystic Theurge next level (forgoing the 2nd-level divine spell requirement), and gain advancement on both arcane and divine casting from then on. That will probably bring you more in-line with the power level of other group mates.