Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alorand 11-20-05, 09:47 AM	Hello Everyone. Long time reader, first time poster here. And let me take this opportunity to say that I am in awe at some of the stuff that has come out of the CO boards. :tiphat: Ok here is the situation. My 9th level human wizard is trying to take out an Ancient Red Dragon pretty much on his own. I do have the help of the party if I really need it but I would prefer not to endanger them needlessly. Normally I wouldn’t tackle something 13 CR above me but this is almost a challenge now sort of a ‘Can I do it?!?’ kind of a thing. Note: We are using 3.0E with everything as printed (so I got the Wings of flying for 5,500gp. I know that’s not what they cost but that’s how our DM wants to play it – completely by the book) However stuff from 3.5 that did not exist in 3.0 is ok. What I have so far: 1. Dust of Sneezing & Chocking – this stuff is amazing! Enemies in a 20ft radius are stunned for 5d4 rounds – can take no actions, no save, no SR! Method of delivery? Probably #2 below. Question: Has this been errataed? 2. Telekinesis – I can violent thrust any number of objects up to 25lb per level at 90ft away and weapons do normal damage. So violent thrust Heavy Crossbow bolts at 10 of them per lb. Total 2250 bolts. Most will be stopped by the DR so increase in size until it’s the same number that I can enchant. Question: How much does a Large heavy Crossbow bolt weigh? Huge? 3. Greater magic weapon those using all 7 of my 3rd level spell slots for 350 +3 bolts. In addition have our party cleric (only 8th level) do a bunch. Also cast my 4th level spells as Bane Weapon from Dragon 279(?) so they bypass DR and do extra +2d6 damage. Question: When our paladin does Bless Weapon on bolts does it affect one or 50 like every other magic enchanting effecting ammunition? 4. If Dragon is stunned but not dead Lesser Cold Orb [MiniHB] it to death using my 3.0 boots of speed. All 1st and 2nd level spells probably memorized as cold orbs and at 10d8 per orb because of the Dragons fire sub-type it’s going to hurt! Question: Is the material from this book intended for a normal role-playing game of D&D? 5. Secure the treasure hoard. Any suggestions on how I spend it? :rolleye2: Possible Problems: 1. 2 words – Frightful Presence. Whenever the dragon charges attacks or flies overhead DC 34 fear check within 300ft or be shaken for 4d6 rounds Ouch! 2. 300ft Blind-sight. Hmm I am remembering a nice 5th level spell something like Improved Blink (?). Would being ethereal bypass the effectiveness of blind-sight??? 3. AC 39 How do I ensure that my bolts hit on a roll other then a 20? Do I need to? 4. The Dragon has 15 Sorcerer levels. And I have no way of knowing what spells it will choose. 5. If I pull it off I might have to dodge stuff my DM throws at me. :gah: If you need to know anything about my character or party feel free to ask but I decided not to bore you with needless facts about my character/party/DM/house rules. Comments? Suggestions? Tips for how I should go about it? Favorite recipes for dragon steak? Please Post! PS. I apologize for my poor English. It’s my third language.
Nightspirit 11-20-05, 10:40 AM	"Can a 9th level 3.0 Wizard kill an Ancient Red Dragon?" No, you can't, unless your DM is a total dumb 15th level sorcerer, good tank, high AC, high saves, high SR, great equipment... he will surely knows of your arrive, and be prepared to kill you and your party before you all will take any action... But I want to tell you something: gather all the informations you can about him before THINK of trying to kill him... maybe with some informations about the dragon(like his gears/spells known) we can help you ;)
nihility 11-20-05, 11:20 AM	"Can a 9th level 3.0 Wizard kill an Ancient Red Dragon?" No, you can't, unless your DM is a total dumb Yes, you can. It's been done before, I think - I seem to recall a challenge some time ago when one of our CO regulars beat the entire MM, in alphabetical order, with a 9th level wizard. There are a huge number of tricks and abuses you can employ in your quest for fame and glory. Consider Rope Trick as a way to escape when needed. Spells that don't allow SR are a must - your Telekinesis trick is a good start, but you should also consider summoned monsters, planar allies, animated dead, and take a look at this thread of no-SR spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=185189). There's also this thread on dragon slaying (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=224389). If you want to really go nuts, I seem to recall that a 5th level wizard can pull off Pun-Pun's trick (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801), so perhaps this is a possibilty for you. Good idea with the dust, by the way, but make sure to deliver it via a minion or some other means that keeps you safe.
Nightspirit 11-20-05, 11:33 AM	Yes, you can. It's been done before, I think - I seem to recall a challenge some time ago when one of our CO regulars beat the entire MM, in alphabetical order, with a 9th level wizard. And the one who used the monsters was who? There are a huge number of tricks and abuses you can employ in your quest for fame and glory. Consider Rope Trick as a way to escape when needed. Spells that don't allow SR are a must - your Telekinesis trick is a good start, but you should also consider summoned monsters, planar allies, and take a look at this thread of no-SR spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=185189). That list is for 3.5 spells...he uses the 3.0... There's also this thread on dragon slaying (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=224389). these kind of threads are useless...you cannot be sure that your pc can kill a dragon, unless you've seen the dragon's sheet...and this is true for many monsters, not only for dragons...
nihility 11-20-05, 11:37 AM	these kind of threads are useless...you cannot be sure that your pc can kill a dragon, unless you've seen the dragon's sheet...and this is true for many monsters, not only for dragons... It's a list of basic strengths and weaknesses possessed by dragons, as well as tactics to exploit them. That seems to me to be germane to the discussion.
nihility 11-20-05, 11:47 AM	2. 300ft Blind-sight. Hmm I am remembering a nice 5th level spell something like Improved Blink (?). Would being ethereal bypass the effectiveness of blind-sight???Since you're on the material plane part of the time, I'm not sure. Ghostform from Tome and Blood, however, would do the job as well as allowing you to gain total cover by hiding in objects.
Alorand 11-20-05, 12:26 PM	Thanks nihility for the good advice (Especially the Ghostform reference but also for the links) and the vote of confidence. And Nightspirit don’t worry I am not so sure myself I can defeat an Ancient Red either. That’s why I am planning in advance and asking for advice on the CO boards. And while the DM isn’t pulling any punches I think he might be a bit intrigued himself (in the “This I got to see.” sense). And I know that in a fair fight we would not stand a chance, but that’s why I am doing my darnest to ensure that this is NOT a fair fight. Plus you know, a wizard’s got to dream… :P Keep your advice coming. Pro or Con. If you convince me that this is a foolish endeavor I might decide not to do it and you would have saved my dear wizard’s life! :ghosted:
neilthrun 11-20-05, 12:53 PM	Well, I'm no expert at 3rd edition spells, but the big way to kill dragons in 2nd edition was to lower there saves and blast away. In 2nd edition there was a spell Greater Malison. I'm sure theres something similar around nowadays. But you've also got to contend with the SR. There is a spell called Assay Resistance, with gives you a +10 bonus to your next caster level check. It might help, but unfortunately its a 3.5 spell in either Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer. Chose the battlefield. You do not want to be in the dragons lair, or in a large field with no cover. Find some reason to get the dragon where you want it. Perhaps steal something of value the dragon had, and will want back. Insult it, alot. Go around the country side proclaiming you killed it. And find some area you want to have the final showdown in. Underground is preferable, but a canyon, city, or swamp would be fine too. Underwater would be great.
PhaedrusXY 11-20-05, 01:00 PM	2 nasty tricks for you: the spell Shivering Touch (Frostburn I think) does Dex damage, which is one of the main weaknesses of dragons. With the spell Lesser Planar Ally you can summon a Nightmare. Nightmares can travel Ethereally and use Astral Projection at will. With those two things, you can basically make yourself unkillable to anyone who doesn't have the ability to travel to other planes. Even if they do, they'll have to figure out where you left your real body, and get to it, before you can stop them. Here is a brief summary of how it works: 1) Summon Nightmare (make necessary precautions beforehand, of course) 2) Nightmare takes you to the Ethereal Plane. 3) Nightmare uses Astral Projection on you and it. 4) You both travel back to the Prime. This isn't clearly defined, but the way the text for Astral Projection is written, you should form a new body on the Prime, since you left your real body on the Ethereal (not the Prime, as usual). 5) You can do anything you could do normally while using this new body, and all of your equipment is duplicated, also. When you eventually return to your original body, you don't actually lose any charges from your original magic items, etc. 6) If you're killed while in your Astral body, you are simply returned to your original body on the Ethereal. I'd make sure to protect it well, though. Perhaps you could leave some or all of the rest of your party there to guard it?
nihility 11-20-05, 01:52 PM	Rawr! Thanks PhaedrusXY, I couldn't recall who posted that trick or how exactly it worked, so I was just hoping someone else would drop in and lay it out. :w00t: As mentioned, ability damage is your friend. Your target has a mere 10 Dex, and dropping that to 0 means the poor thing is unable to move and is helpless. At that point, just walk up and coup de grace away. It can still take purely mental actions, but that doesn't amount to much unless it has both Still Spell and Silent Spell.
Iaimeki 11-20-05, 04:15 PM	One possible serious problem is that if the dragon can see you coming (300' blindsight), it can cast antimagic field and negate almost everything you can do against it. It's imperative you take it by surprised: going in from the ethereal is a good way to do that.
PhaedrusXY 11-20-05, 04:35 PM	One possible serious problem is that if the dragon can see you coming (300' blindsight), it can cast antimagic field and negate almost everything you can do against it. It's imperative you take it by surprised: going in from the ethereal is a good way to do that.Yeah... that's a really good point. Some of the absolute nastiest fights I've ever seen in D&D games were against dragons with Antimagic Fields. Of course, the way the spell is (stupidly, IMO) written, it shouldn't even cover all of a really big dragon, as the area is not adjusted for the size of the casting creature.
nihility 11-20-05, 05:36 PM	Since PhaedrusXY's trick allows you to effectively reuse scrolls and wands, consider investing in a scroll of a powerful spell like Gate to function as your primary attack method. A scroll of Mord's Disjunction will take care of any magical protections the dragon has. Combined with a stealthy approach (ghostform, etherealness, etc...) and some other tricks (like your dust), this could definitely add up to victory. If that Dust of Sneezing and Chocking still works the way you have it, you could use it to knock a flying dragon out of the sky - it can't maintain flight without taking actions, so it would crash and take falling damage to boot.
Nightspirit 11-20-05, 06:27 PM	You alla miss two things: 1) he is a 9th level wizard. 2) he uses the 3.0, not 3.5...so no shivering touch... 3) an ancient red dragon with a dex of 10????? First time I ear of it...it just means that the DM is playing it REALLY bad... 4) an ancient red dragon caught surprised and unprepared by a 9th level wizard??? What kind of extremely bad builted and played dragons you have seen?? @Alorand: If the master build and play the dragon as he would do, you're wizard have no chance to survive the encounter...so, gather information about the dragon, especially from your DM...if you know something about its possessions, minions, lair, spells known, tell us... if you tell us what books are allowed, maybe we can try to build the dragon, and see what kind of weakness you can use at your advantage... ;)
nihility 11-20-05, 06:36 PM	3) an ancient red dragon with a dex of 10????? First time I ear of it...it just means that the DM is playing it REALLY bad... Look in the MM and you'll find that a 10 Dex is indeed what it has before magic. 2) he uses the 3.0, not 3.5...so no shivering touch... If you reread the original post, you'll note that the OP stated that "stuff from 3.5 that did not exist in 3.0 is ok." 4) an ancient red dragon caught surprised and unprepared by a 9th level wizard??? What kind of extremely bad builted and played dragons you have seen?? It's not a diety, nor can it automatically sense hostile intent against it. When a guy drops in on Big Red from the Ethereal with no warning, I'm not really seeing why you should expect the dragon to be anything but surprised. It's not like you're just walking up and saying hello. If the master build and play the dragon as he would do... I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but I don't think you appreciate just how broken a 9th level wizard is. A dragon's spell access would potentially allow it to accomplish similar feats, true, but the player is initiating combat here and thus has the advantage in regard to initiating broken spell use. To review: by using PhaedrusXY's Nightmare trick, you effectively cannot die so long as the dragon stays on the Prime and nothing on the Ethereal interferes. You can also reuse scrolls and such indefinitely. So long as you take steps to negate detection, have some meaningful form of offense, and possess the ability to somehow defeat magical defenses, you have a good chance of eventually winning. This is quite abusive, true, but there's no way you can do this sort of thing without extreme abuse or extreme luck.
primetimekiller 11-20-05, 07:31 PM	if you really make it your dm does his job wrong! last time i encountered a dragon it flew over to me grappeld me hold me in its mouth and used its breath weapon then it flew up into the sky dropped me on the ground and finally landed on me *sing this to the notes of "life's gonna suck"* You’re gonna end up burned and smacked, face the fact. You’re gonna end up smashed and crashed, and then you’re gonna die.
nihility 11-20-05, 08:17 PM	if you really make it your dm does his job wrong! last time i encountered a dragon it flew over to me grappeld me hold me in its mouth and used its breath weapon then it flew up into the sky dropped me on the ground and finally landed on me *sing this to the notes of "life's gonna suck"* You’re gonna end up burned and smacked, face the fact. You’re gonna end up smashed and crashed, and then you’re gonna die. And if you had used PhaedrusXY's trick, you would have gone back to the Ethereal, had the nightmare send to back to the Prime, and taken another shot at it. And another. And another. And each time, all your scrolls and wands come back full and ready to go. This can be done so long as you are prepared to abuse arcane magic more than your DM. I think the basic routine should be something like this: 1) Buy a scroll of gate (8,825 gp) and a scroll of Mord's Disjunction (3,825 gp). You might need a loan from your partymates to swing the cash. 2) Use PhaedrusXY's nightmare trick. This will cost you a bit more, since the nightmare will probably want something tangible in exchange for its services (though you might get away with giving it a cut of the dragon's loot). 3) Head to the Prime with an Astral Projection provided by the nightmare, then move to the dragon's location. 4) Gate in something nasty, or use Mord's Disjunction to strip away the dragon's magical defenses as needed. 5) Get killed. Wake back up in your orginal body. 6) Return to step 3 until you win. You should be able to gate in a new baddy every few rounds with this method. Think Big Red can take out a neverending squad of Balors? One's bound to roll a 20 eventually...
DTFarstar 11-20-05, 09:28 PM	I think the easiest possible way is, if the dragon is unaware of your animosity, Ethereal your way in next to it, ghostform or nightmare trick... whatever. Rod of Empower, Lesser + Shivering Touch. Dragon eats 3d6 dex damage X1.5 and goes down. Av 3d6 10.5, so 15.75. Even if the dragon have gloves(or whatever) of dex +6 then a little more than half the time he's down for the next 9 rounds. 8 rounds of coup de grace, if he's alive shivering touch him again and try to kill him for 8 more rounds. The Lesser Orb of Cold was printed in Complete Arcane if your DM doesn't like mini's HB. No save 5d8(10d8 vs. this guy). Doesn't seem too difficult to me. Darian Farstar
runestar 11-20-05, 09:36 PM	If the dragon is played with as much cunning/intelligence as the wizard, the latter would not stand a chance at all. The dragon has a hoard, why not use it instead of letting it collect dust? And what do you know: It just found a sphere of annilhilation in its hoard..... :eek: Threads like this usually assume an utter moron is playing the dragon, or that its intelligence is worst than the AI script in BG2. I don't see how this can be possible unless you exploit some loophole/game mechanic.
nihility 11-20-05, 09:59 PM	If the dragon is played with as much cunning/intelligence as the wizard, the latter would not stand a chance at all. The dragon has a hoard, why not use it instead of letting it collect dust? And what do you know: It just found a sphere of annilhilation in its hoard..... :eek: The thing is, many dragons do just mostly sit on their hoards. The Draconomicon discusses this a bit, but it's typical for a dragon to have most of their wealth in a form other than magic items. In any case, the beauty of the nightmare trick is that, even if the dragon can trivially kill you each time you show up, you still keep showing up. As long as you show up far enough away to get a turn, you can do something each time. The only real problem is if the dragon tracks you to the Ethereal, then follows you there. Threads like this usually assume an utter moron is playing the dragon, or that its intelligence is worst than the AI script in BG2. I don't see how this can be possible unless you exploit some loophole/game mechanic. Exploiting loopholes and mechanics is indeed the order of the day. Obviously, the dragon would win with casual ease in a straight fight. For my part, I'm assuming that the dragon is a genius in a well-protected location, which is why I favor fighting the dragon by gating in powerhouse geniuses that can fight him on roughly equal footing. Dex damage is also viable, of course, but something about the "Balor rush" just makes me happy. Plus, the dragon is less likely to find the time to chase you back to the Ethereal if he's busy fighting a Balor or three.
Squirrelloid 11-21-05, 12:48 AM	useful other things to consider (assuming nightmare abuse): (1) A scroll of Timestop would let you turn your round into multiple rounds for even more Gates (if you can afford them) or at least other spells). (2) Dragon's have crappy touch AC. Like, less than 10. (3) If you cast enough Evard's Black Tentacles, it will likely fail at least one grapple check. You can cast Evard's during a TS. (4) Enervation is no save/yes SR. The beforementioned +10 to spell pen spell will help it get through. Needless to say, negative levels really mess up a dragon, because it causes its saves to go down. Another touch spell that recommends itself is Ray of Enfeeblement (less str means higher chance of grappling success), but only works the first time. Max Emp for even more fun. (-14 str enh penalty). This of course means that you'll show up, cast a bunch of spells, and get yourself killed so you can do it again and all your spells will keep stacking up (eg, the evards). Because you can't cast enough spells in one day otherwise...
DTFarstar 11-21-05, 02:22 AM	I realize that dragons are brilliant tacticians and they have an immense amount of abilities. I'm just saying if he manages to get the first round off with an empowered Shivering Touch, then unless the dragon invested in a Dex+6 item AND a tome, then he's got about a 75% chance of taking him down the first round. If he could afford a rod of maximize, lesser instead of empower, then the dragon would need a dex item and a tome of dex +3 to not auto-coma. It's not the best strategy, but if you mix it with nightmare abuse then the dragon is going down easy. Astral Project into the PMP, Rod Maxed-Shivering touch dragon in surprise round, Use gate scroll to summon a balor or whatever and have them repeatedly coup-de-grace the dragon till it fails it's save. Heck, screw the rod I would bet a scroll of empowered maximized shivering touch is cheaper than a lesser rod of maximize. So, Project, ST him, Gate in something to actually kill him now that he is disabled. If ST is about to wear off then have the Nightmare end the spell and do it all again. Or just let him kill you while desperately trying to kill him then astral project again. Keep in mind, if you do this or any other nightmare abuse enough then the dragon will run out of sorc spells and spell like abilities. Other than at will ones. Of course, Ancient Reds don't actually have combat SLA's.... weird. Well, not totally true, suggestion 3/day. But... I don't see that helping him that much. Anyway, just saying that saying, "They are smart and you have no chance." really isn't true, unless I'm misunderstanding this and he's like calling the red out or they are getting set in an arena or something. If the dragon doesn't know he's coming and he has time to plan he should be fine.
SigmaJargon 11-21-05, 03:29 AM	I forget, did they even have metamagic rods in 3.0? I can't seem to remember having them back then, but my 3.0 knowledge has somewhat degenerated over the years. Anyways, I think one of the easier ways to slay the dragon is better accomplished by a Druid 9, casting an extended Miasma (Masters of the Wild version). With a spell duration of 90 rounds against a pitiful Con of 31, that means the big bad Red Dragon will most certainly fail his Constitution check, given a little time. But a Wizard 9? I really don't remember many of the uber arcane combinations from 3.0 very well at all. :(
Endarire 11-21-05, 03:59 AM	Tome & Blood brought us the metamagic rods that eventually became core in 3.5. -EE
Nightspirit 11-21-05, 07:23 AM	Look in the MM and you'll find that a 10 Dex is indeed what it has before magic. you start from the assumption that the dragon doesn't use its hoard...look at the number of GREATER magic items he would have...a dragon with DEX 10 means stupid DM. It's not a diety, nor can it automatically sense hostile intent against it. When a guy drops in on Big Red from the Ethereal with no warning, I'm not really seeing why you should expect the dragon to be anything but surprised. he can: scry, detect thoughts, have lots of alarms and traps inside his lair, many other things that can make HIM undetectable for the wizard... It's not like you're just walking up and saying hello. Nor he passes all the time sleeping...he is one of the most intelligent creatures of the multiverse, a powerful spellcaster, with LOTS of magic items, and probably lots of minions... I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but I don't think you appreciate just how broken a 9th level wizard is. A dragon's spell access would potentially allow it to accomplish similar feats, true, but the player is initiating combat here and thus has the advantage in regard to initiating broken spell use. I think that *you* don't understand how broken an optimized dragon is... To review: by using PhaedrusXY's Nightmare trick, you effectively cannot die so long as the dragon stays on the Prime and nothing on the Ethereal interferes. You can also reuse scrolls and such indefinitely. So long as you take steps to negate detection, have some meaningful form of offense, and possess the ability to somehow defeat magical defenses, you have a good chance of eventually winning. This is quite abusive, true, but there's no way you can do this sort of thing without extreme abuse or extreme luck. You have the ability to defeat its magical defenses with a 9th level wizard??? what kind of gears this 9th level wizard is supposed to have??? He is a 9th level wizard, not a 17th level wizard...a 17th level wizard prepared will eradicate the dragon from the existence in about one round...he can do this in 3.5, so think about the 3.0, when he have access to the broken versions of time stop and haste...
Senevri 11-21-05, 07:46 AM	In any case, the beauty of the nightmare trick is that, even if the dragon can trivially kill you each time you show up, you still keep showing up. As long as you show up far enough away to get a turn, you can do something each time. The only real problem is if the dragon tracks you to the Ethereal, then follows you there. Hmm. Won't go quite like that. Good tactic, though. 1. You Astral Project in, get whacked. Happy dragon 2. You Astral Project in, get whacked, "Didn't I see this guy before?" 3. --"--, Dragon is getting annoyed. Casts True Seeing 4. You Astral Project in, Dragon cuts that annoying silver cord(via whatever means). You die. That is, if I understood Astral Projection correctly.
Prominence 11-21-05, 08:16 AM	using the nightmare trick, there's a draconomicon spell that lowers SR if I'm not mistaken. Use that, +10 to caster check and you will have no problem defeating the SR. Then, instead of lesser empower, I suggest wand of lesser maximize. flat 18 dex damage. Have True Strike up just incase. The problem is, at 0 dex you can't move right? The dragon is still capable of thought, and still spells. edit: just incase he can use lesser restoration, make sure to have a Numbing Sphere handy for 1d4 dex damage / round.
nihility 11-21-05, 08:40 AM	Hmm. Won't go quite like that. Good tactic, though. 1. You Astral Project in, get whacked. Happy dragon 2. You Astral Project in, get whacked, "Didn't I see this guy before?" 3. --"--, Dragon is getting annoyed. Casts True Seeing 4. You Astral Project in, Dragon cuts that annoying silver cord(via whatever means). You die. That is, if I understood Astral Projection correctly. According to the Manual of the Planes (a 3.0 source), page 49: Only a few circumstances, such as a psychic wind, an attack from an astral dreadnaught, or a blow from a powerful githyanki sword, can sever this cord. Monsters, items, and circumstances cannot sever a silver cord unless this ability is specifically noted. I suppose it's possible that Big Red has a powerful githyanki sword just laying around, but I think at that point the DM is just saying, "no, I'm not going to let you win, even if you found a clever way to do it, and I'm not going to bother to fight fair."
Necron 11-21-05, 08:41 AM	using the nightmare trick, there's a draconomicon spell that lowers SR if I'm not mistaken. Use that, +10 to caster check and you will have no problem defeating the SR. Then, instead of lesser empower, I suggest wand of lesser maximize. flat 18 dex damage. Have True Strike up just incase. The problem is, at 0 dex you can't move right? The dragon is still capable of thought, and still spells. edit: just incase he can use lesser restoration, make sure to have a Numbing Sphere handy for 1d4 dex damage / round. Don't you think that a dragon of that age-cat would have some means to protect his major weakness (vulnerability to cold) ? Useing something that renders him immun to cold would also render him immun to those petty spells since they are cold based .. or he just uses a flat 'globe of invulnerability' :) Also the char in question wouldn't be able to use those spells because they are 3.5 ! :) Face it .. maybe you could survive the first round if you surprise the dragon .. thereafter you're dragon fodder. Just my 2 cents Necron
nihility 11-21-05, 08:43 AM	har in question wouldn't be able to use those spells because they are 3.5 ! :) Please read the OP: "...stuff from 3.5 that did not exist in 3.0 is ok."
AviLazar 11-21-05, 09:21 AM	I suppose it's possible that Big Red has a powerful githyanki sword just laying around, but I think at that point the DM is just saying, "no, I'm not going to let you win, even if you found a clever way to do it, and I'm not going to bother to fight fair." I may be mistaken, but don't githyanki get really annoyed when one of their swords get's lost and into the hands of a non-githyanki..to the point of you know waging wars against whatever has the sword? While biggy red is the bad-girl on the block, I don't think she can take on a hoarde of githyanki. Also for those saying the dragon hoarde is there and the dragon should be prepared. For the most part dragons are sleeping. They do not wake up cat's grace) that a dragon will have dex spells. Also, to be fair, the DM should roll up the treasure and hope the dragon has gloves of Dex...and then you gotta think, on what natural appendige is the dragon wearing gloves, which were probably made for medium sized humanoids...not gargantuan (isn't that the size) sized clawed reptiles. My first instinct was this is not doable, but with the information provided by the other guys, yea it seems totally doable.
nihility 11-21-05, 09:32 AM	you start from the assumption that the dragon doesn't use its hoard...look at the number of GREATER magic items he would have...a dragon with DEX 10 means stupid DM. Annoying magic items like this are why I suggested a scroll of Mord's Disjunction. That one scroll can destroy any magic-related defenses the dragon might have. Everything in the game has a counter, including the dragon's defenses and the PC's tactics. he can: scry, detect thoughts, have lots of alarms and traps inside his lair, many other things that can make HIM undetectable for the wizard... The biggest thing here is the last, which is indeed a significant matter - I don't really know how do go about locating a Mind-Blanked dragon other than asking lots of bothersome questions. As for scrying, does the dragon routinely scry on any person in the world higher than, say, 2nd level? If not, and if the player has given no prior indication that an attack is in the works, then the dragon has no good reason to monitor the player's character. If the dragon finds out that the PC has been researching him, then monitoring the PC is reasonable. If the PC starts talking openly about dragon slaying in an area where the dragon has agents, then scrying is reasonable. If the dragon has been monitoring the PC for no good reason whatsoever, that's not a smart dragon, that's a DM saying, "no, even though I agreed to let you give this a shot, just no." The only way I know of to find out if someone wants to kill you using core spells is Commune, which only allows yes/no questions, and possibly the Planar Ally spells. So, the dragon could routinely cast Commune and ask, "does anyone plan to try to kill me in the next week?" This still doesn't tell him who is planning the attack. He could then, say, call a powerful agent of, say, Tiamat and pose the question, but there's nothing in the rules that I know of to indicate that this would actually work. If anyone knows of a high-level divination spell that reveils the identity of anyone planning on attacking you in the near future, please share this knowledge. You have the ability to defeat its magical defenses with a 9th level wizard??? what kind of gears this 9th level wizard is supposed to have??? A couple of scrolls and his spellbook in my setup, the same plus a lesser rod and some other relatively cheap things in some other setups. ***** Okay, let's get this out in the open: if you try this and your DM decides that you're just going to lose, then you just lose. You'll show up on the Prime 100 miles from the dragon's location, and the dragon will be standing right there with a Githyanki silver sword and a readied action to sever your silver cord. Or you'll travel to the Ethereal, only to find the dragon waiting for you. Or you'll get attacked in your sleep the night before you attack. It doesn't matter, you will lose if the DM decides that you are going to lose. That's not an interesting scenario to me. What's interesting to me is to try to figure out how the thing could be done if the DM plays fair. That means that the DM determines the dragon's spell list, equipment, and so on without the knowledge of how you intend to attack it, then uses the dragon's resources to try to defend it in a reasonable fashion. Can the dragon learn of your plans in this latter case? Yes, but with limitations. Can the dragon detect your approach? Yes, but with limitations. Can the dragon attack you on the Ethereal plane? Again, there are limits to its power to do this. Perhaps its lair is warded to prevent planar travellers from popping in, for example; in that case, you're stuck walking in until you destroy the defenses with Mord's Disjunction or you wait for the dragon to leave. Perhaps its lair is also warded to detect hostile creatures. Again, this is a problem that you will have to deal with. No matter what, a viable method is going to revolve around abusing and exploiting broken spells and mechanics. We can all agree that, in a balanced game, the wizard here should be a dragon snack. This is not a balanced game. As such, this is not an exercise in strategy or savvy battle tactics as we understand them in the real world. Instead, this is an exercise in exploiting badly-written rules. Thanks to those badly-written rules, we can pull off nonsense like getting near-infinite lives and calling armies of powerful outsiders with a single scroll. This is not like a war. This is like a lawsuit. Your job, if you want to win, is to twist the "law" as far as you can and hope that the other side twists it less. This is analogous to quietly patenting some basic feature of the internet, or getting a criminal set free on technicality despite his crime being witnessed by dozens of reporters with cameras rolling. Can the dragon also exploit those same rules? Yes, in which case you lose. Of course, by that logic, the nearest gold dragon should also be abusing those same rules, so then you can watch two powerful dragons with infinite lives and resources fight. And, as long as he's occupied, you may as well steal Big Red's hoard. ;)
Prominence 11-21-05, 09:41 AM	Even with gloves of dex, there's nothing he can do about 18 dex damage. He gets a maximum of 16, and if he has any spells active you'd have to toss in a numbing sphere to deal the additional 4. I'm pretty sure magical items like rings and gloves resize to fit the user. Don't you think that a dragon of that age-cat would have some means to protect his major weakness (vulnerability to cold) ? No, no I don't. That's why he's a red dragon, not a white dragon. We're trying to aim for the dragn's inherent weaknesses. As was said earlier, doing this would be equivalent to your DM cheating in my opinion. Anyway, all else fails - take over an empire, spend all the money on +1 Brilliant Energy Wounding daggers. Telekenesis 15 of them into the dragon as touch attacks. he takes 30 con damage, use a quickened lesser orb of ice/acid/etc and it dies. Hooray for the expensive approach!
nihility 11-21-05, 09:42 AM	Anyway, all else fails - take over an empire, spend all the money on +1 Brilliant Energy Wounding daggers. Telekenesis 15 of them into the dragon as touch attacks. he takes 30 con damage, use a quickened lesser orb of ice/acid/etc and it dies. Hooray for the expensive approach! :rofl: :thumbsup:
Prominence 11-21-05, 09:50 AM	It's the flawless plan - create jobs making swords and enhancing them. Soar your empire into debt to other kingdoms and create massive poverty. Kill the dragon, you now have enough gold to equip your army for war and enough magical items to ensure victory. Proceed to conquer the other kingdoms with your new-found wealth, so you no longer have to pay them back. edit: it is worth mentioning the sure-fire way of going first. Hire a mercenary (or use your cleric) to go in first. The dragon will have to spend his turn killing the cleric or mercenary. Give them one of the swords (since telekenesis doesn't care where the sword started). Then you are free to act as you please for a turn. Use 3.0 haste to make sure you can run close enough in a turn while being outside range. Consider mind jaring or get a scroll of polymorph any object. Kill your next in line, take his place, and say you died fighting the dragon (this is to remove all hostile/unfriendly conditional modifiers in your kingdom). The peasants rejoice at your rejuvenation of their economy! +1 Morale Bonus all around! Peasant birthrates increase! Alternatively, you can just sell the 15 swords when you're done and pay back the other kingdoms. Do you have an artificer in your party? I smell a camapign idea brewing.
Mumm-Ra 11-21-05, 10:53 AM	quote: "No, no I don't. That's why he's a red dragon, not a white dragon. We're trying to aim for the dragn's inherent weaknesses. As was said earlier, doing this would be equivalent to your DM cheating in my opinion." Are you kidding me? You think that any creature with int of above 8 would not try and patch up his/her weaknesses? What planet are you on? How can you even consider that cheating? If your character has a nasty weakness, wouldn't you try and find a way to remove or minimise it? gees, think about what you say before you post. the sor 15 red dragon would have energy immunity-cold at the very least, if not an item that provides immunity. Hell, there is a spell from frostburn that gives you the cold subtype. Its instantaneous, so you cannot dispel it. The rules allow you to do that, and that's fully 3.5! There you have it, no cold spells on him thank you very much. And there is NO good reason for him not to have that spell. The spell is mantle of the icy soul by the way, and its a 6th lvl cleric spell, which red dragons can have (and will have as soon as they can cast 6th lvl spells).
Prominence 11-21-05, 10:56 AM	fine, fine, energy substitution : electricity. geeze, NPCs != PCs. They're supposed to have some kind of exploitability in my opinion. Also, they cast as a sorcerer. If they want to waste a spell known on immunity to ice, that's their incentive (and I suppose a viable one). It is still equivalent to a DM saying 'you lose' though.
Mumm-Ra 11-21-05, 11:04 AM	That's fine :) I was arguing about the ludicrous statement that intelligent creatures don't patch up their weaknesses as best they can. That's all. So you agree with me then :) Creatures can and DO patch up weaknesses :) Thank you for going back your ridiculous statement earlier :)
Fwib 11-21-05, 11:05 AM	fine, fine, energy substitution : electricity.nuh-uh!...Creatures with the cold subtype are immune...
Mumm-Ra 11-21-05, 11:07 AM	OOps , seems fwib is correct. Changing descriptor to a spell does NOt change the wording of the spell. The spell says that creatures with the cold subtype are immune. Changing the spell to electricity does NOt change the wording. Thus, regardless of the energy substituted, cold creatures are still immune. Hey, its silly, but if you want to use the rules as written, that's the way it works. thanks, fwib, for pointing that out.
Prominence 11-21-05, 11:10 AM	I don't have the frostburn book infront of me, I'm at work (and soon at class). It seems like if it lost the 'cold' descripter they would no longer be immune, but I can't argue this without the book infront of me, and I don't think you could post more of the description without violating a CoC. There's still the ES: Electricity numbing sphere maybe, though it would take a lot longer and a lot more recasts. Hide in the walls or something with a ghost-template-like spell.
nihility 11-21-05, 11:15 AM	I still say the Balor rush is the way to go. Of course, you might have to deal with a few dozen annoyed greater demons once the battle is over...
Prominence 11-21-05, 11:15 AM	Aha! Sorry for posting twice, but SRD... Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells. Mantle of the Icy Soul isn't a chaos, evil, or fire spell is it?
Fwib 11-21-05, 11:36 AM	Aha! Sorry for posting twice, but SRD... Mantle of the Icy Soul isn't a chaos, evil, or fire spell is it?But it is a cleric spell.
Fwib 11-21-05, 11:38 AM	I still say the Balor rush is the way to go. Of course, you might have to deal with a few dozen annoyed greater demons once the battle is over...Does astral projection let you get to any plane and location you want really quickly?
Fwib 11-21-05, 11:47 AM	There's still the ES: Electricity numbing sphere maybe, though it would take a lot longer and a lot more recasts.Sadly, such a spell would be almost completely ineffective against the SR and saves of an ARD [edit]next time I need to reply to multiple posts, I'll try to remember to concatenate my replies into one.
nihility 11-21-05, 11:58 AM	Does astral projection let you get to any plane and location you want really quickly? The spell says nothing specifically about where you show up. I've been assuming that you can't control exactly where you show up, and that you just show up at some random spot on the Prime. After that, you teleport to the target location. Scribing a scroll (or scrolls) of teleport would ensure that you can teleport each time that you show up on the Prime. The Manual of the Planes might say more about the matter, but I haven't checked it yet. Good question, though, since transit time is definitely an important consideration. Edit: something just occurred to me: couldn't you go to the Prime, Gate in a Balor, order it to attack a specific Red Dragon that you name, then will yourself back to your body and start again? You never even get near the dragon with this method, since the Balor's ability to use Greater Teleport at will ensures that it can get to the target from any starting point, assuming you tell it exactly where the target is. You can be on the other side of the planet if you want. From the dragon's viewpoint, a steady stream of Balors just start showing up for no good reason.
Fwib 11-21-05, 12:19 PM	The spell says nothing specifically about where you show up. I've been assuming that you can't control exactly where you show up, and that you just show up at some random spot on the Prime. After that, you teleport to the target location. Scribing a scroll (or scrolls) of teleport would ensure that you can teleport each time that you show up on the Prime. The Manual of the Planes might say more about the matter, but I haven't checked it yet. Good question, though, since transit time is definitely an important consideration. Edit: something just occurred to me: couldn't you go to the Prime, Gate in a Balor, order it to attack a specific Red Dragon that you name, then will yourself back to your body and start again? You never even get near the dragon with this method, since the Balor's ability to use Greater Teleport at will ensures that it can get to the target from any starting point, assuming you tell it exactly where the target is. You can be on the other side of the planet if you want. From the dragon's viewpoint, a steady stream of Balors just start showing up for no good reason.Yeah, that sounds like it would work - but still the problem with enraged fiends :):(
primetimekiller 11-21-05, 12:33 PM	@nihility you remember the retarded guy from southpark,called timmy? when you dm is like that they you might win but otherwise the dragon has all the tricks you have only that he is smarter and stronger and richer! when you put things like that i as dm would pull even more broken things its just not suitable to happen at that levels and by the way your character would never be that stupid to attack a dragon on his own!
Endarire 11-21-05, 01:13 PM	Though it's less convenient, what about handing a planetar boots of teleportation? -EE
Nightspirit 11-21-05, 01:17 PM	Annoying magic items like this are why I suggested a scroll of Mord's Disjunction. That one scroll can destroy any magic-related defenses the dragon might have. Tell me, your 9th level wizards find scrolls of disjunction abandoned on the ground like trash? Because mine usually at that level vaguely known of the existence of that spell...and in general, scrolls of high level spells are all but common... Everything in the game has a counter, including the dragon's defenses and the PC's tactics. True. But for enemies with similar powers...i find really difficult for a 9th level wizard to counter every defense an ancient red dragon(CR 22) has up... cut He can discover that someone wants to kill him. Then he can investigate...and probably he will discover who is the one who is planning on kill him...then scry on him, and be prepared to fight against him...I tell it again: if the OP was a 17 level wizard, he will have no big problems to become undetectable for the dragon, even with divination methods...plus he will surely have the power to remove all the traces that can guide the dragon to him, even if the dragon try to investigate(without any reason for doing so...). But he is a 9th level wizard...so, unless the DM lets him find lots of items that are designed to don't be part of the possessions of a 9th level character, he will have really small chances to don't be detected by the dragon... Find a tactic that is reasonable for a 9th level wizard, not a tactic that need that the wizard must have an equipment that is outside of his possibilities...
nihility 11-21-05, 01:36 PM	...Find a tactic that is reasonable for a 9th level wizard, not a tactic that need that the wizard must have an equipment that is outside of his possibilities... *sigh* Okay, I give up. As near as I can tell, you aren't reading most of this thread, or you are willfully misinterpreting what we are saying, or you find the whole exercise distasteful. I'll give a brief summary, and then I shall refrain from future replies to your posts. 0) You can't win a straight fight. You have to abuse loopholes. 1) You need a broken defense trick. The character's current suggested defense is provided by PhaedrusXY's infinite-lives trick, which is accomplished with spells that a 9th level wizard may cast. Particular advantages and weaknesses in this defense are discussed in previous posts. 2) You need a broken offensive trick. The character's offense is very flexible. All that matters is that the character can occasionally do something useful. Several offensive tricks have been discussed so far, with widely varying needs in terms of investment and availability. That's it. All we're trying to do is sketch out rough ways that it might be done. Constructive comments in this regard, such as Fwib pointing out a potential issue with the text of Shivering Touch, are invaluable resources in exploring this question. Maybe in your games, Big Red is an omniscient quasi-diety that magically "knows" whenever someone bears him ill will and always has just the right item or spell to counter anything that the PCs can do. I don't really care. I'm looking at the MM and the Draconomicon and asking myself what can be done about the creature as written. *** Edit *** A bit on worst-case scenarios: It's pointless to plan for something that you cannot possibly recover from. If a certain outcome or event in a "game" means that you will lose without fail, and there's nothing you can do about it except not play, then there's no point in planning for it. Thus, when people talk about worst-case scenarios, they almost always mean the worst survivable case. If Big Red learns that you're planning an attack, decides that you are a credible threat (or just wants to make an example of you), and strikes first, then that is a true worst-case scenario. You just lose. The only thing you can do about that, if anything, is try to prevent it from happening. The worst survivable case (I think!) is that Big Red finds out you plan to attack, but doesn't know exactly how. He might know when by keeping tabs on you, but if he knows how and has the resources to counter everything you could possibly do, then I don't think you can recover. It might be very useful to consider just how bad things could get and still be survivable.
nihility 11-21-05, 04:10 PM	So, one of the most obvious weaknesses of PhaedrusXY's trick is that the dragon could potentially Plane Shift and attack your true body on the Ethereal. I was wondering what the odds were that Big Red might know that spell. So, I cracked open the Draconomicon and read through the chapter of premade dragons - full stats, spell lists, personalities, and so on for every standard color and age category. As it turns out, not a single one of them had Plane Shift on its list of spells known. A few Gold dragons had Limited Wish, which was the closest thing I could find. No other dragon had an obvious means of plane-hopping.
Prominence 11-21-05, 04:21 PM	None of them have mantle of the fiery spirit or whatnot, too. An amusing question : do dragons normally spend XP for spells? Like, Wish, Miracle, Mantle spells, etc. It seems dragons would hoarde their XP more than their treasure. Although for good dragons it seems 200 isn't bad.
Vorlir 11-21-05, 04:41 PM	hmm, good question. But as dragons don't have levels, just hid dice and therefore no xp? I wouldnt think they would or even could spend xp on anything.
Nightspirit 11-21-05, 04:45 PM	0) You can't win a straight fight. You have to abuse loopholes. Yes. But the "loopholes" listed in this thread depends ONLY on the DM and what items he decide to give to the wizard. This is what I want to point out. That's it. All we're trying to do is sketch out rough ways that it might be done. Constructive comments in this regard, such as Fwib pointing out a potential issue with the text of Shivering Touch, are invaluable resources in exploring this question. You don't understand my comments. Dragons are not "fixed", they depend only on how the dm build them. You cannot use one of the dragons written in the books, unless this wizard is going to fight against one of those dragons. This is the main-point. If the DM decide to optimize the dragon, choose the right spell list and give him the right items, the wizard has no chance. NO CHANCE. I want to tell it again: gather all the information you can about this dragon. Tell to us what you know about the dragon. Then we can start studying a winning tactic/loophole. An ancient red wyrm can potentially counter up to all the loopholes you can be able to use...
tsuyoshikentsu 11-21-05, 05:16 PM	I've been following this thread for quite some time, and let me just say a few things: Firstly, bravo nihility. You've got some really good ideas going there. Never again will I doubt the power of casters. Secondly, to Primetimekiller: you don't seem to be reading posts. At all. This is a trait you seem to share on many threads. Of course, from the state of grammar in your posts, it may be that English is not your first language. Since this may contribute to a lack of understanding on your part, you're forgiven if that is the case. On Nightspirit's latest naysaying: Yes. But the "loopholes" listed in this thread depends ONLY on the DM and what items he decide to give to the wizard. This is what I want to point out. Since he hasn't mentioned any house rules thus far, we must assume the DM is going by RAW. IF the DM is being fair, then, that means this guy has a shot. ESPECIALLY if someone he knows can make items. You don't understand my comments. Dragons are not "fixed", they depend only on how the dm build them. You cannot use one of the dragons written in the books, unless this wizard is going to fight against one of those dragons. This is the main-point. If the DM decide to optimize the dragon, choose the right spell list and give him the right items, the wizard has no chance. NO CHANCE. Probably true. But again, since 1) the OP didn't say anything of the sort and 2) we're assuming this DM ISN'T an a**hole, we're assuming a standard red. I want to tell it again: gather all the information you can about this dragon. Tell to us what you know about the dragon. Then we can start studying a winning tactic/loophole. An ancient red wyrm can potentially counter up to all the loopholes you can be able to use... But UNTIL we get that info, we'll assume it's a standard red and give him advice on that regard.
LightAcolyte 11-21-05, 05:30 PM	Nightspirit: Does it occur to you that you keep saying the same thing everyone else already knows? If the DM wants you to die, you will die. This thread obviously assumes the Red Dragon is played within the limitations of its own in-game knowledge. Otherwise, this excercise is completely intractable. In any event... I like the infinite lives trick. Just conceal the location with an illusion and the Red Dragon is really unlikely to search the Ethereal Plane and find it...or for heaven's sake, take it to the plane of shadow...not even you will be able to find it later, the way the plane moves everything around constantly...while you are exploiting that trick you might as well just get the Nightmare to do it 30 times in succession (it will last for 9 minutes minimum), and get 30 copies of yourself to take on the Red Dragon. If you have enough resources to Lesser Planar Ally another one, go for it...get as many copies of yourself as you want. Nothing against the RAW I don't believe says you can only create a new body for yourself once in that manner. You just have to make sure none of the bodies are presently on the Material Plane each time you manifest a new body there. =)
Prominence 11-21-05, 06:05 PM	Yes. But the "loopholes" listed in this thread depends ONLY on the DM and what items he decide to give to the wizard. This is what I want to point out. Welcome to D&D. Now can we continue to contribute things besides 'hey look rule 0 trumps everything'
Satori 11-21-05, 06:11 PM	First off: Nihility is my hero. He/she (Sorry, don't know Nihility's gender) is the McGuyver of Optimization. I could say, "Ok, I've got a Halfling Commoner with a toothpick...help me beat a beholder!" and Nihility would state a damn good case in doing so. I do have one question about the wonderful idea of the "Balor Rush". Assuming the DM doesn't want the PC to lose, and plays everything as "fair" as possible...logic dictates that a swarm of Balors would rather not destroy themselves by flinging their outsidery bodies at a huge red dragon, right? Logic also dictates that said dragon is a bit versed in how to deal with outsiders, right? Now...barring dragon meta-gaming (that sounds like a splat book Feat), isn't it highly likely that the second a stream of Balors showed up, wouldn't the dragon try to subvert their purpose and send them back against the original caster? (Of course, the caster could then swoop in and apply all the fun broken-ness of Dex damage...but hear me out) Wouldn't Balors rather work for a red dragon than a puny human caster? I'm not trying to pose a Nightspirit-esque "Dragons are beyond killable for a 9th level caster" argument...I'm trying to negate a potential counter-attack from the DM. How would the 9th level caster keep the Balors from turning? How would he conceivably be able to afford the continually high prices of an ever wiser summoned Balor? (23rd use of the Gate Scroll) PC: "You, demon, shall serve me by destroying the dragon within that cave! OBEY!" Demon: "Wait a tic...I just saw Bob, Joe, Craig, and Jethroe's entire extended family get flung back here in itty bitty demon bits not too long ago..." PC: "YOU SHALL OBEY MY WILL!!" ::sweat sweat:: Demon: "Right...ok, lessee here...in exchange for my most certain demise, I demand...the reinstatement of A-Track cassettes." PC: "WHAT!?!?! Do you think I have access to Miracle? I'm only 9th level!!" Demon: "Oh well...I really wanted to listen to the BeeGees on my old A-Track again..." ::Demon Departs:: So...since we have to assume the only thing we can abuse is poorly written rules (and that the PC won't have never ending funds or leapord print underwear and a Shag Wagon), we still have to deal with the logistics of carrying out a strategy, else all the broken beauty of the plan comes crashing down. What do you think?
Endarire 11-21-05, 06:38 PM	From the SRD on gate: A controlled creature [one with no more than twice your caster levels in hit dice] can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. -EE
Alorand 11-21-05, 06:48 PM	Ok, sorry I was away for so long. Damned work and college keeping me away. :bored: First thank you everyone for a lively discussion on the topic. Please allow me to provide some details on the situation: Our DM rolled two identical rolls on the Dark mountains encounter table and explained it as the same Ancient Red circling overhead and investigating the army gathering in what he considers his mountainous domain. (We are spying on and fighting a guerilla warfare campaign against the same army as the main quest of our ongoing campaign) Of course we scattered like rats and many a divine intervention rolls were made, and even our party’s EDIT: Vassal of Bahamut [PrC, Draconomicon] chose the better part of valor and hid, since in the past we fought a Young Adult Red Dragon which almost resulted in a TPK. However once the dragon was gone he decided to track it with Detect Evil so that he would be able to return when he was higher level and fight it. We ended for the night as he succeeded in finding the thing’s lair – a mountain cave. We get to play again this Saturday and our DM promised to do all of the background work like determining the Dragons name, treasure and spells in advance as well as a few legends we could find out about it. To assuage the objections that many of you have made I am a considerate player and would never abuse the rules to such an extent and ruin a campaign plot that the DM has made. But this Dragon is a random encounter and I believe that it would make for an entertaining game for everyone involved if I succeeded in defeating something that logic dictates should crush me with its pinky finger. This is what the DMG describes as the Easy when handled properly encounter [3.0 DMG p.102] (impossible otherwise). Like I said earlier the DM is not going to pull any punches but neither is he going to meta-game. In fact he has told us stories of how his 6th level fighter rolled 3 consecutive 20s in 2nd edition back when there was insta-kill and killed a Great Wyrm. And how his DM at the time could do nothing but stare. I am just returning the favor. As to what is allowed and available to my character: • All non-campaign specific, non-Dragon magazine WotC 3.0 material • All non-campaign specific, non-Dragon magazine WotC 3.5 material that does not duplicate 3.0 stuff • Campaign specific and Dragon material on a case by case basis. (I got the spells Create Magic Tattoo and Amanuensis from fearun) Still nothing that duplicates something printed in 3.0 As my 2 free spells per level I can take any printed spells according to above guidelines. I have to buy other non PHB spells at 100gp per spell level. I also have about 12Kgp left and the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Since I am a member of the biggest Mage’s Guild in this campaign world (the guild fees are steep) I can get pretty much anything given some time. Also I was looking through the Dragon Slayers guide Hide from Dragons[Draconomicon] is an amazing spell but does “SR: Yes” mean that I the spells target get SR or the dragon past whom I am strolling. @PhaedrusXY Thanks for the Nightmare trick. This will be the first time in 7 years of playing D&D that I have cause to summon demons. Weeeeeeee… Also Shivering touch is a godsend. @Nihility Thank you for all of your great ideas! @Nightspirit – Thank you for your great counter-arguments I need to analyze this without assuming everything will go my way. But as to the DM optimizing this dragon – only in the sense that he will use the magic items that he has rolled randomly for its hoard and chose in advance what spells the dragon will know from sorcerer levels. I think at 22 CR he is not likely to increase the Dragons difficulty further by giving him extra abilities. I might be wrong on this but I am pretty sure that that also means no cohorts/cronies or traps that the dragon can not make himself in its lair (It’s a random encounter for god’s sake). I have not made any gathering of information because we called it a night as soon as we located it’s lair (ie. The DM did not come up with anything to tell us at that point). @ everyone: I am playing this campaign every other week on Saturdays so I will have the opportunity to give this all a shot next Saturday (the 26th) so by Sunday I will either be back here asking for suggestions on how to spend the loot or for advice for my new character.
Nightspirit 11-22-05, 05:36 AM	Ok. First, use nondetection. If he tries to scry on you, he must make a check to overcome the nondetection...and you will know if he is scrying on you... If he is scrying on you, i strongly suggest to don't fight. If not, cast lesser planar binding and use the nightmare's trick. Use a false vision on your real body, and maybe a rope trick. hide from dragons is definitely the spell that you want, if you have access to it. SR:Yes means that the spell must pass through the SR of the target. But you are the target, so the spell will function normally. You need something to counter forms of telepathy or detect thoughts to become undetectable to him Now, important thing: have you access to high level spells scrolls? Since he hasn't mentioned any house rules thus far, we must assume the DM is going by RAW. IF the DM is being fair, then, that means this guy has a shot. ESPECIALLY if someone he knows can make items. What do you mean? You mean that giving to a 9th level wizard items that are rare and so powerful that they will have more problems to find and buy those items rather than fighting the dragon is going by RAW and playing fair? In this case, we need more information about his campaign style. Probably true. But again, since 1) the OP didn't say anything of the sort and 2) we're assuming this DM ISN'T an a**hole, we're assuming a standard red. optimize a dragon doesn't means that the DM is an a**hole. It simply means that he is a good DM. Dragons are ancient, powerful, smart, wise...i really can't think of a non-optimized dragon...it just seems stupid to me, that one of the most powerful creature of the multiverse is a monster with a stupid spell list, stupid gears and so on... and: can you give me a reference for a standard ancient red dragon? ...
Alorand 11-22-05, 08:35 AM	Now, important thing: have you access to high level spells scrolls? Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: I am sure I could plop down a sack of gold and pull in a lot of favors at the Mages Guild to get scrolls. I actually would prefer to avoid using say a wish scroll and the nightmare trick to defeat the dragon since a) I don't know how many high level scrolls I can justify getting, and b) if it works that's pretty much infinite wishes/gates per day (if that does not demand house-ruling I don't know what does) A single scroll of Hide from Dragons is fine but too much more would detract from the suspension of disbelief. Like you said: giving to a 9th level wizard items that are rare and so powerful that they will have more problems to find and buy those items rather than fighting the dragon is going by RAW and playing fair? I agree that If I am going to do this I need to stick mostly to items and spells which a character of my level would realistically have. and can you give me a reference for a standard ancient red dragon? The Dragon is mainly what is listed in MM (3.0) under Ancient Red Dragon with his Sorcerer Spells being cherry picked by the DM before I reveal my evil plans, and magic items rolled randomly from the DMG and anything useable by the Dragon is used. Clearly this is not that customized as far as dragons go but this is how I think our DM is planning on running it. And one would think 'How mush optimization does a CR 22 creature need to protect itself from 9th level characters?' Plus it still is deadly if not approached with extreme caution, one mistake and I am toast. I don't expect it to be this easy the next time. DM: You know, you remember hearing rumors of another smaller dragon that lives in these mountains. Would you like to fight it? :schemes: ME: Umm… I run. You know that is all right with me. If you need anything else feel free to ask more questions. I will be back from classes/work in ~8 hours. As to your other questions I am not sure if you wanted me to answer since you posed them after quoting other people. My next post will be my plan so far.
Prominence 11-22-05, 08:56 AM	Remember: even if you reduce his dex to 0 somehow, you need a back up plan to get his con to 0. Whether this is a dagger of wounding to the eye RP-style (he can't move, can't evade) or Fell Drain Decomposition somehow (give him a bunch of negative levels, and hallow the area when you're done), or 24 enervate scrolls.
Alorand 11-22-05, 09:51 AM	Well if his dex is at 0 why can't I just Cold Orb him and have the rest of the party Coup-de-grate him to death? I think its getting him to dex 0 thats the hard part.
Nightspirit 11-22-05, 10:03 AM	Teleport away from the dragon's territory. Buy these items: scroll of disjunction, scroll of gate x2, scroll of time stop, lesser rod of maximize, rod of maximize, scroll of hide from dragons x2, scroll of enervation x4, scroll of mind blank, scroll of polymorph self, scroll of assay resistance, scroll of limited wish. cast mind blank. cast gate to call a nightmare, then use the astral projection trick. teleport at the dragon's lair. cast hide from dragons. call a solar(gate). cast haste on him, and give him the scroll of disjunction. Then order him to enter into the lair, dispelling all the magical traps/alarms he can, and cast disjunction against the dragon at the start of the fight. Then enter into the lair. cast haste+polymorph self(scroll), then go into melee with the dragon. Cast assay resistance(end of turn 1). Cast maximized empowered shivering touch. If the dragon is immune to the spell, cast time stop. During time stop cast limited wish to remove his cold subtype, then recast shivering touch. Then CDG. expensive way: cast enervation, cast time stop(assuming 3 rounds): cast 3 maximized enervations+2 enervations+magic jar (average: 12+(3*2.5)= 19 negative levels, -19 to all saves) Kill "yourself"(you are in the body of the dragon) :D another expensive way: a scroll of time stop, 3 scrolls of time stop, scroll of true seeing, scroll of temporal stasis, scroll of mind blank. teleport to his lair, cast haste, cast detect thoughts and then time stop, enter into his lair in time stop, cast a second time stop when the first is going to expire, find the dragon, cast disjunction, cast assay resistance, cast lower spell resistance, cast polymorph self(to become something with an high strength score), cast temporal stasis. All during time stop ;) Don't buy these items in the dragon's territory, or else you risk to become the dragon's prey. he will probably know that someone is planning to kill him, and he has a lots of free time, so he will probably scry even on you, if you remain in his territory and buy these items inside his territory...
7sigma 11-22-05, 10:11 AM	Also I was looking through the Dragon Slayers guide Hide from Dragons[Draconomicon] is an amazing spell but does “SR: Yes” mean that I the spells target get SR or the dragon past whom I am strolling. I think the SR apllies to the target of the spell, in this case, you. So, the dragon's SR can't do squat about it.
Alorand 11-22-05, 11:53 AM	Hmm... I am wondering, given its ability to cast as a Sorcerer of 15th level - Up to 7th level spells, and access to divine spells and those of the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains. What would be the most devastating Spells Known combination: Level : 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 Known: 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 2 • For such a powerful Dragon overall? – assuming it has to use the same spell list to defend from all sources of attacks, many higher then 9th character level as well as fulfilling its many nefarious plans. • What Spell combination would ruin my plans of killing it the most?
Lo77o 11-25-05, 12:35 PM	1 problem with the nightmare trick, and im amazed none of you noticed is that with a caster level of 20, etherealness will only last 20 minutes, and astral projection has a 30 minutes cast time. However maby you could just cast ropetrick and make the nightmare cast astral projection from there. Might work.
Ander Spectacular 11-25-05, 02:02 PM	The astral projection trick wouldn't work by RAW simply because of the astral projection spell description. It is a very specific spell with very specific effects. Firstly, the spell doesn't say that your physical body is left on the plane you were on when you cast the spell, it says it is left on the Material plane. If the DM goes along with all the twisting of the spell description, then sure it would work, but the spell is extremely specific. Etherealness on the other hand, leaves lots of loopholes in it, but none would effect the casting of Astral Projection. If things did work this way, then the whole Blood War and such would be meaningless because everyone would make fake bodies to fight while lying in comfy little demon beds. -AS-
Always-Late 11-25-05, 04:55 PM	What if the title was phrased like this? "Can an Ancient Red Dragon kill a 9th level 3.0 wizard?" Said Ancient Red Dragon goes on to pull off all of the absolutely ridiculous tricks stated, and proceeds to cast ridiculous amounts of divination spells, as well as the astral projection cheese, and proceeds to permanently antimagic everything within several miles of him.
Bonzai 11-25-05, 05:34 PM	lol, I have thought of this challenge, and I have had a tough time. The best I thought of was scrying around, finding everything that could serve as an opening to the cave, and sealing it up with walls of stone. Pray that you got them all and hope it suffocates in it's sleep. :D Or you could help it along by leaving a tiny hole at the top and filling the whole cavern with water. Granted, the Dragon will probably have a way out, but it was the most feasible way I knew. It would help if you could cast dimensional anchor on it, but that may alert him before your rdy.
PhaedrusXY 11-25-05, 09:22 PM	The astral projection trick wouldn't work by RAW simply because of the astral projection spell description. It is a very specific spell with very specific effects. Firstly, the spell doesn't say that your physical body is left on the plane you were on when you cast the spell, it says it is left on the Material plane. If the DM goes along with all the twisting of the spell description, then sure it would work, but the spell is extremely specific. Etherealness on the other hand, leaves lots of loopholes in it, but none would effect the casting of Astral Projection. If things did work this way, then the whole Blood War and such would be meaningless because everyone would make fake bodies to fight while lying in comfy little demon beds. -AS-You are correct. It does take a bit of DM interpretation to use the "trick" I mentioned. The spell does not specify what happens if you cast it starting on a plane other than the Prime Material, and then travel Astrally back to the Prime. And yes, I agree that if you go with the interpretation necessary to allow my "trick", it will lead to logical inconsistencies in a campaign world. However, I believe it is the most straightforward interpretation, based on the wording in the spell description. As an alternative, you could Astrally project to another plane, and then Gate the dragon to you and kill it. Of course, this requires a bit of interpretation also, as the dragon does not have the "extraplanar" subtype when it is on the prime. But the "extraplanar" subtype is a strange thing, as it is given to any creature that is not currently on its home plane. So technically nothing has the "extraplanar" subtype at the moment you cast Gate, if you are calling the target from it's home plane. A balor in the Abyss does not have the Extraplanar subtype, but I think everyone would certainly agree that it is a legal target for Gate. So this leaves us with the alternative (and correct) interpretation: "extraplanar" as used in the Gate spell uses the plane upon which the caster is currently residing when he casts the spell as the reference point for determining whether a creature is considered "extraplanar". So Astrally Projecting yourself and then Gating an enemy to you and killing them is entirely legal. So you can still use my trick on anything with less hit dice than 2x the caster level of your Gate spell. (Note: I said "my trick", but I didn't come up with this cheese on my own. The abuse of Astral Projection is old hat on these boards, and I very much doubt that I'm the first one to figure out that you can gain access to the ability at 9th level via Lesser Planar Ally, either.)