Post/Author/DateTime	Post
evangelion1010 03-01-05, 10:28 PM	You call these gods? Strange, i thought they were immortal... or at least a challenge. So, as the title suggests, there is a one shot adventure that will be run in about 3 weeks that involves taking on the FR pantheon of gods. The rules are all WoTC books go (3.5), and you have 60 ECL's to work with. For wealth, its the same as a 60 level character, which is to say its nearly unlimited. I personally think that 60 levels is a major insult to these boards, and the level of brokenness i typically find while seaching here. I'd personally love to do it in 30-40, but feel free to use all 60. Much as i love loopholes, i would perfer that everything be legal with a fairly strict interpetation of the rules. Now i want to see just how fast i can end this adventure, without breaking a sweat. I know you guys can make him cry...
PhaedrusXY 03-01-05, 10:34 PM	You will lose simply because of Salient Divine Abilities. There is no way (within the actual rules) for a mortal to be protected from them that I know of, and the gods with certain ones can destroy you with a whim and there is nothing you can do about it. If there were a way to protect yourself from those, then you could indeed take on gods with mortals. I played in an Epic game where the DM introduced a mechanism for us to become immune to SDAs, and we killed Torm. It was still a tough fight, even then, and I'm pretty sure the version of Torm he used was nerfed a bit even from the published one. I don't think it is reasonable to even try to beat the FR pantheon with a group of mortal characters, unless the DM is completely inept and/or the PCs have some way to resist SDAs. Edit: I don't know what SDAs the FR gods have, but it would be easy for a single deity of Death to have all of these... Annihilating Strike Prerequisites: Divine rank 11, base attack bonus +20, Str 25. Benefit: When the deity strikes with a weapon or natural weapon, the opponent struck might be obliterated. Creatures, attended objects, and magic items must make Fortitude saves (DC 20 + the deity’s rank + the damage dealt) or be reduced to –10 hit points and killed outright. Unattended, nonmagical objects are obliterated. The deity can destroy up to 1,000 cubic feet (a 10-foot cube) of nonliving matter per rank, so the ability destroys only part of any very large object or structure targeted. Notes: Deities with a rank equal to or greater than the attacking deity are not subject to this ability. This ability has no effect on objects or effects that are not subject to physical attacks. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, justice, vengeance, war. The DC for this would be insane for most deities. Life and Death Prerequisites: Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability. Benefit: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life. Notes: This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability. If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant. This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped, provided the soul is not held by a deity of higher rank than the one using this ability. This ability cannot restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability of a deity with a higher rank. Rest: After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected. Deities whose portfolio includes death do not have to rest after using this ability. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, supreme. Mass Life and Death Prerequisites: Divine rank 16, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability, Life and Death salient divine ability. Benefit: The deity can designate any number of mortals and snuffs out their lives. Or the deity can designate any number of dead mortals and restore them to life. Notes: No two mortals affected by a single use of this ability can be more than one mile apart per rank of the deity. The ability is otherwise identical with the Life and Death salient divine ability. Rest: After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per levels or Hit Dice of the creatures affected. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, supreme. Rejuvenation Prerequisites: Divine rank 11, Divine Fast Healing salient divine ability. Benefit: When the deity suffers an attack that should destroy it, it simply disperses and reassembles later. Roll 10d10 to determine the number of days before the deity returns. Notes: If the deity is killed in its own realm, subtract the deity’s divine rank from the number of days it takes to return. If the deity’s realm is on a divinely morphic Outer Plane, and the deity is killed there, subtract twice the deity’s divine rank from the number of days it takes to return. The return always takes at least one day. This ability is ineffective if the deity is killed by another deity of equal or higher rank. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, life, undead. Supreme Initiative This is an extraordinary ability. Prerequisites: Dex 29, Improved Initiative. Benefit: The deity goes first in the initiative order, no matter what its initiative result is or what initiative result anyone else in an encounter or battle has. True Knowledge Prerequisites: Divine rank 11, Int 40, bardic knowledge or lore class feature and 10th level in the class that grants the ability, Knowledge domain. Benefit: The deity never fails a bardic knowledge or lore check, no matter how obscure the knowledge involved. The deity speaks and understands all languages. The deity can use legend lore and analyze dweomer as free actions at will. These actions count against the deity’s maximum number of free actions per round. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Knowledge. A deity with the above SDA will know every weakness and strength of every member of the party. Undead Mastery Prerequisites: Divine rank 14, Cleric level 17th. Benefit: The deity can automatically command or destroy any undead creature, as desired, as a free action, though this counts against the normal limit of free actions per round. The deity can do this as often as desired, but it can command no more than one undead creature per divine rank (regardless of the creatures’ Hit Dice) at any one time. Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, life, undead. If you decide to be an undead to avoid the Life and Death SDA, you are still screwed.
Lavis Knight 03-01-05, 10:34 PM	Take the Paragon and Saint templates ^^ those are the best two i have ever seen.
RadicalTaoist 03-01-05, 10:45 PM	Elemental Wild Shape Stacking and Epic Wild Shaping. Become all the elemental weirds, then a number of dragons. The feats and supernatural abilities *stack* from each wild shape running under you. That's a start. It also makes me feel guilty just for suggesting something so broken.
ancalimohtar 03-01-05, 10:51 PM	Phaedrus is right. I had been designing a campaign toward deicide, and the only legitimate way I could think of having the PCs eventually kill the gods was to first become lesser gods, acquire the lesser Salient Divine Abilities, and move their way up the divine ladder, one god at a time.
SigmaJargon 03-01-05, 10:56 PM	A few thing about gods. The first is: you want to win initative. If you don't, you are dead. As PhaedrusXY says, Salient Divine Abilities can and will rock your world. Solution? Go first, and try to kill 'em in one shot. Second, you either want to rely on spells that can get through SR and don't require saves or some MASSIVE source of damage (Hurler?). Deities tend to have awesome saves, and greater deities will ALWAYS succed on a saving throw. My suggestion? Nab a Marshal cohort with Inspire Dexterity and a uber high Cha mod, have a reeeeeaaaly high dex yourself, Improved Init, Epic Improved Init (or whatever it is called), and try to get yourself as many caster levels as possible. Be evil, and use a ritual from Savage Species to grant yourself the Good subtype. Apply Holy Word and Blasphemy liberally. EDIT: Oh yeah, I suggest you enter battle via Gate, plane Shift, or some other method that odes not involve sneaking up to it on the plane of exsistance where it currently is residing. Deities senses range for MILEs around, though I think they might still be foiled by a really good Hide and Move Silent check...
PhaedrusXY 03-01-05, 11:02 PM	A few thing about gods. The first is: you want to win initative. If you don't, you are dead.See the Supreme Initiative SDA above. :D Not all of them will have it, but some will. They will probably kill you. And remember, deities can cast spells too. :P It is a foolish quest you embark on. As a DM, I'd happily run the stock deities right out of the book against anything that has ever been built on this board (with the exception of other deities) including a party made up of the Hulking Hurler, Wish, Word, AND the Cheater of Mystra. They would all die. I guarantee it.
Vatras 03-01-05, 11:05 PM	As Phaedrus said, the divine and portfolio powers are what makes a god. Some of them - whose portfolios cover the thing - know 180 days ahead you are coming. This knowledge, the number and kind of minions they command, the numbers of believers who would answer their call, added to the salient abilities make such attacks meaningless. It will be more or less just a dice-rolling orgy to see, if PCs can beat the avatar stats.
SigmaJargon 03-01-05, 11:06 PM	Is there a salient ability that protects against suprise rounds? Please say no, please say no, please say no... :tantrum: Ack, Even just Divine Dodge will have a high chance to protect a deity. DIVINE SPLENDOR? Arghh...
Vatras 03-01-05, 11:11 PM	There is: Battle Sense. Negates surprise, flanking, sneak attacks and lets them keep the DEX bonus always and everywhere.
Lorimo the Disbeliever 03-01-05, 11:57 PM	If DM wants deicide, it can happen. If not - party will be obliterated. Don't rely on "we can take on deity by surprise". Proxies, seraphs, solars and whole bunch of others... you can't win initiative vs all of deity's guardians.
RadicalTaoist 03-02-05, 12:03 AM	I still think an epic H.I.V.E. or druid might stand a chance.
necrosnoop110 03-02-05, 12:23 AM	The deity goes first in the initiative order, no matter what its initiative result is or what initiative result anyone else in an encounter or battle has. Holy crap! :eek: :bigeyes: :OMG! :bigeyes: :eek:
SigmaJargon 03-02-05, 12:30 AM	Well, perhaps somebody with epic spellcasting could give a god a run for their money. Create a spell with Holy Word or Blasphemy as a seed, extending the range to 30 miles or so, just to make sure to be out of the deities sense range. Pray they don't have Battle Sense AND Supreme Init AND something to blast you with. If one does, throw dice at your DM until he relents. Lets see... If you can manage to argue that the Delude Seed is the base, and that the Will save is only to disbelieve the illusion of standing at the end of a tunnel with a bright light at the end, and then tack on the Holy Word/Blasphemy affect, you might be able to pull off the spell with a Spellcraft DC of about 69 (14 (delude seed) + 27 (holy word seed, as calculated by rules in Epic Handbook 3.0 pg 91) + 28 (increase ranger 100% x 14)) for Holy Word at a range of 31.8 miles. I'd also suggest raising the DC a bit more with the Gain +1 bonus on caster level check to overcome target’s spell resistance (+2 Spellcraft DC) until you hit the minimum Spellcraft result.
Neeek 03-02-05, 12:36 AM	Word. As in "The".
PhaedrusXY 03-02-05, 12:43 AM	No really... it's hopeless. Look at it like this, any greater deity of Death with the Life and Death SDA can kill anyone who would seriously threaten them weeks before the attack even occurs, because of these two abilities: From Portfolios: Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event. The death of the deity of Death certainly falls within the portfolio of Death. :D From Life and Death: This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability. So that's it. The moment you even think about killing a greater deity of Death, they will sense the emminent threat to them in the future, thanks to their portfolio sense ability. They will then use Remote Sensing to view you, and snuff your existence out with Life and Death. Game Over. Toss on the SDA that allows them to automatically control Undead, and whatever else you want to deal with any construct PCs that come after them. It is even possible that they could forsee their deaths far enough into the future to kill you before you even thought about killing them... (Gotta love Time paradoxes) The only way I know of to get around this is to make all of your plans directly under the Spire in the Outlands. It blocks all magic of all kinds, including deific abilities, and would presumably prevent them from forseeing their own deaths with their Portfolio Sense, but even that is debateable.
necrosnoop110 03-02-05, 12:50 AM	What precisely does portfolio mean? Is that everyone or just that gods believers? (Forgive me I don't know anything about D&D above 20th level) What about striking a deal with a rival God A to use its powers to weaken the other God B’s abilities to the point where it would be possible for the PCs to kill God B? Necro
PhaedrusXY 03-02-05, 01:00 AM	What precisely does portfolio mean? Is that everyone or just that gods believers? (Forgive me I don't know anything about D&D above 20th level) What about striking a deal with a rival God A to use its powers to weaken the other God B’s abilities to the point where it would be possible for the PCs to kill God B? NecroThe portfolio basically represents the fact that a god is a manifestation/representation of a particular aspect of reality. So if a deity has Magic as part of it's portfolio, then any event, item, creature or thing (etc) that is related to magic would fall under the influence of that deity's portfolio. I may not be exactly right on this, as I don't even own any of the books that deal with deities. Making deals with deities to get their aid in killing other deities might work, but I doubt they'd be willing to help you if they figured out that you were planning to exterminate them all. :P
SpiritGlyph 03-02-05, 01:57 AM	Looking at PhaedrusXY's comments, I can we can all that there are some gods that can only be taken down by other gods. Therefore, the only way to win is to use other gods to take them down. Now, since your goal is divine genocide, normal social interactions aren't going to cut it. Happily, though, social interaction is a mechanical function. :D That's right, you need a diplomacy master. Skill checks allow no SR, no saves, and as far as I can tell, cannot be defended against via any SDAs except the ridiculous Supreme Initiative, which simply means you have to not make that god want to kill you in the first round. First, you'll want to get to the god so you can talk to them. That's easy, as a single round is all it takes to persuade the most loyal deva to sacrifice their life to get you to your destination. You'll also want to be subtle about how you use your massive skill bonus. Asking God A to kill God B will probably tip off God B to your plans via the portfolio sense gimmick. Making veiled comments that eventually lead to all out god war is probably fine, though.
Sentinel of Bharrai 03-02-05, 02:06 AM	Depending on how you interpet the rules, gods have a major advantage when it comes to Antimagic Fields and their like. According the PHB, "Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this [Antimagic Field]." I'm not positive, but I think epic characters, their spells and epic magic items are all still susceptible to Antimagic Fields (with the exception of any Artifacts - so you may want to equip your characters with some). Several of the gods can produce antimagic fields...and depending on how you interpret the rules, all of their spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities still function normally...as do their salient divine abilities, etc. etc.
ancalimohtar 03-02-05, 02:11 AM	I've said it before and I'll say it again: The only way to commit deicide is to first become a lesser deity, and slowly rise through the ranks, killing more and more powerful deities as you go along, increasing your Divine Rank and gaining more SDAs.
Tempest Stormwind 03-02-05, 02:35 AM	Looking at PhaedrusXY's comments, I can we can all that there are some gods that can only be taken down by other gods. Therefore, the only way to win is to use other gods to take them down. Now, since your goal is divine genocide, normal social interactions aren't going to cut it. Happily, though, social interaction is a mechanical function. :D That's right, you need a diplomacy master. Skill checks allow no SR, no saves, and as far as I can tell, cannot be defended against via any SDAs except the ridiculous Supreme Initiative, which simply means you have to not make that god want to kill you in the first round. First, you'll want to get to the god so you can talk to them. That's easy, as a single round is all it takes to persuade the most loyal deva to sacrifice their life to get you to your destination. You'll also want to be subtle about how you use your massive skill bonus. Asking God A to kill God B will probably tip off God B to your plans via the portfolio sense gimmick. Making veiled comments that eventually lead to all out god war is probably fine, though. Supreme Initiative likely won't save the deity here, particularily if you are somewhat pious and wish to speak to this god personally. No combat = no initiative rolled = wasted Supreme Initiative. So, this guy has three times as many "Knowledge: Religion" skills as is normal, and is honestly a spirituophile (is that a word?), obsessed with learning all he can about the gods. The problem is, he's also a sociopath.
DreadWizardDM 03-02-05, 03:14 AM	Killing all the dietys can be accomplished if you look at it through a certain point of view. If EVERY living and non-living creature in the multiverse turned thier backs on the gods and renounced them entirely over the centurys thier power would waver. Given time they would simply fade out of existance. I look at D&D gods as beings who essentially derive thier power from followers, petitioners and believers. Anyone remember the old Star Trek episode where Kirk went up against Apollo? Also there was a TV movie called Merlin I think where the Gods of magic slowly faded away into legend due to the rise of Christianity withen England...or something along those lines at least.
Sentient 03-02-05, 03:32 AM	As Phaedrus said, the divine and portfolio powers are what makes a god. Some of them - whose portfolios cover the thing - know 180 days ahead you are coming. This knowledge, the number and kind of minions they command, the numbers of believers who would answer their call, added to the salient abilities make such attacks meaningless. Suprise yourself.
Khan the Destroyer 03-02-05, 04:39 AM	It is apparent that the overall opinion here is that gods can usually only be killed by other gods. Well... you have 60 freaking levels to attain godhood, so do it! Paragon Juvenile Black Dragon (14 HD, +4 LA) Fighter 20/Dragon Ascendant 12 ECL= 60 Dragon Ascendant needs a +30 BAB, so those levels in fighter will do more than enough to get you that. The other reason I chose a melee class is because trying to get spells with such an enormous ECL will get you a crappy caster level that will make your spells worthless against a deity anyways. And the huge ECL is needed for Dragon Ascendant (you need to be a Dragon :)). I'll assume 32 point buy and go with an even distribution (you guys can probably optimize this better): Strength 14 +6 dragon +15 paragon +5 level = 40 Dexterity 14 +15 paragon +1 level = 30 Constitution 14 +4 dragon +15 paragon = 33 Intelligence 14 +15 paragon +1 level = 30 Wisdom 10 +15 paragon = 25 Charisma 14 +15 paragon +1 level = 30 For this to work, Charisma and Strength need to be maxed. So, at ECL 60, we can assume Tomes of +5, and uber items of +12 enhancement. Meaning that Charisma will be somewhere around 47, and Strength will be around 57. Leadership is needed for this build, as well as Epic Leadership, Legendary Commander, Might Makes Right, and Undead Leadership. Base Epic Leadership Score: 60 (ECL) + 3 (Renown, Special Power) + 2 (Stronghold) + 18 (charisma) + 23 (strength) = 106 -4 for Undead Leadership = 102 A leadership score of 102 gets you: 7200 1st level followers 720 2nd level 360 3rd level 180 4th level 90 5th level 45 6th level 23 7th level 12 8th level 6 9th level 3 10th level 2 11th level 1 12th level Legendary Commander multiplies all of that by 10. For a total of 86,420 followers. Your Undead Leadership score would be 85 (assuming Might Makes Right doesn't apply). With Legendary Commander, that gets you: 55000 1st level followers 5500 2nd level 2250 3rd level 1130 4th level 570 5th level 290 6th level 150 7th level 80 8th level 40 9th level 20 10th level 10 11th level For a total of 65,040 undead followers. That is a grand total of 151,460 followers (+ 1 chort). With all of those followers worshiping you, the amount of prayer you recieve would be on par with that of an Intermediate deity. That means that you would have 11-15 divine ranks, and your own salient divine abilities. Grab Alter Reality. For your cohort, choose a 56th level wizard or sorcerer. Then have him make crazy stat-boosting epic spells. Use your Alter Reality ability to make the spells permanent on you. Do this to increase your strength and charisma to the stratosphere, raising the number of followers you have until eventually you reach the millions and gain the power of a Greater deity. Or, voluntarily give up your immunity to disease to contract Festering Anger. Then your strength will get really high and you can attract enough followers to become a Greater Deity. In either case, the point is to max out your leadership score to attain enough followers to boost you to Greater Deityhood. I can't think of a way right now to do that and still get the +30 BAB needed for Dragon Ascendant (which is needed for that initial Divine Rank). Well, I can't think of a way other than already being a god and using Alter Reality to permanently alter your scores through magic. Hope this helps, good luck!
Otto the Bugbear 03-02-05, 07:08 AM	(from his sig) when you are going to kill a god let someone else do it for you hunter in princess mononoke The answer was right there, under your nose, all along. Cheers Otto :)
ophanimx 03-02-05, 09:20 AM	You COULD just ask Ao to kill them really, really, really nicely. .. but, really. Breaking leadership to obtain followers is probably your best bet. Possibly creating your own plane to house your worshippers to keep them safe is a good idea, too. Might Makes Right would really break Leadership with a 60 ECL, I imagine. What was the Hulking Hurler's final strength in the damage thread? Yeah, stack MMR on there.
Khazra Reborn 03-02-05, 09:32 AM	be an elven or other long living race cancer mage. Get festering anger, sit pretty for 100 years adding +36500 to strength. Challenge a god of strength (who is to proud to say no) at an arm wrestle for his godly status....easy divine rank, possible by level 10. Oh, add might makes it right. You still have at least 40 ECL to mess about with..
Vatras 03-02-05, 10:11 AM	In the FR Ao decides who becomes a deity and who not, so you cannot be one unless he concurs :) A portfolio is the theme over which a god has been given control by Ao. Since Mystras portfolio is magic, she has control over it, at a time she withheld all spells from Cyric and all of his clerics (Shar had her own view of things and has created the Shadow Weave, but thats another story). The god usually has knowledge about things connected with his job, often weeks ahead of the time. The gods of War know when and by whom wars will be started, and also create some themselves, the god of secrets knows every secret there is (and keeps them secret by her very nature), and so on.
Dark Kyosuke 03-02-05, 10:33 AM	Wait, wait, wait... ... Without reprinting huge sections of Deities And Demigods (or any other existing source), how DOES one become a diety, mechanicaly? Worshipers, sure, but I assume you need some measure of immortality first... Furthermore, what is Might Makes Right from?
frisbeet 03-02-05, 10:45 AM	Sort of metagaming, but the one thing more powerful than these gods is the DM. So, make the DM on your side. Really on your side. This may involve the purchace of capital items like a new TV, etc.
Khan the Destroyer 03-02-05, 11:08 AM	Wait, wait, wait... ... Without reprinting huge sections of Deities And Demigods (or any other existing source), how DOES one become a diety, mechanicaly? Worshipers, sure, but I assume you need some measure of immortality first... That is the point of the Dragon Ascendant prestige class. It is a class available to true dragons that gives them immortality at level 12 and makes them Qusai-deities (divine rank 0). It is in the Draconomicon. After you achieve this divine rank, then you use leadership to get as many followers as possible, increasing your worshipers and therefore your divine rank. Furthermore, what is Might Makes Right from? I think it is from Races of Faerun. It lets you add your strength modifier to your Leadership score. So if you get Festering Anger before you become a quasi-deity, that dragon has a long while to gain a strength bonus each day. A juvenile dragon is about 32 years old at least, plus however much older your character is. So the dragon was known for his incredible strength and fury, and began amassing followers. One day, he achieved divinity, and those followers worshiped him as a god of strength and fury, catapulting him to the ranks of Greater Deity. Then he layeth down the smack. I guess Undead Leadership isn't really needed since Festering Anger will get your Leadership score to arbitrarily high numbers anyway. Might Makes Right would really break Leadership with a 60 ECL, I imagine. What was the Hulking Hurler's final strength in the damage thread? Yeah, stack MMR on there. I am not too familiar with the Hulking Hurler build, but I think the problem would be getting the +30 BAB while adding all of those templates and such to gain that incredible strength.
captain_jester 03-02-05, 11:20 AM	do you have to take on the whole pantheon or just one Deity?...If it's one deity max out you dex and make a single 20th level rogue/35th level epic rogue/!st level sorceror with a hummingbird familiar, and be a pixie...then sneak attack his ass...If it's an evil deity have sacred strike (d8s damage)
Dark Kyosuke 03-02-05, 11:22 AM	So, otherwise, there's no hard and fast method to get Divine Ranks? Mostly due to Deities and Demigod's brokenness, but... ... You are all boned. :nonono:
El_Machinae 03-02-05, 11:43 AM	I'll say it Khan BRAVO! Aren't there charts showing the worship base of deities in Forgotten Realms? Can we break Leadership to give a large enough base? And here I was going to suggest the Athar prestige class with their immunity to divine power ... Edit: About supreme initiative - isn't there a domain that allows you to AoO someone who strikes you are a friend? Maybe retribution? AoO's occur before the event that triggers them, and thus, if you insta-kill the deity on an AoO, your friend isn't annialiated. Edit 2: if you can get the Sarrukh in your party into the divine ranks, then he can GIVE you Divine Rank. This way, you only need one character to be an optimized deity.
n0-1_H3r3 03-02-05, 11:44 AM	Well, perhaps somebody with epic spellcasting could give a god a run for their money. Create a spell with Holy Word or Blasphemy as a seed, extending the range to 30 miles or so, just to make sure to be out of the deities sense range. Pray they don't have Battle Sense AND Supreme Init AND something to blast you with. If one does, throw dice at your DM until he relents. Well, if its the FR Pantheon in particular, that won't work either. Mystra is insanely powerful, and virtually cannot be defeated by any non-deific spellcaster - afterall, she can perceive any spell or spell-like ability being cast or created 18 ten-days (6 months) before it happens. Then, with her unique divine salient ability, she makes the spellcaster/s who plan to kill her unable to access the weave, and thus removes their spellcasting ability for as long as she likes. Think of it this way - if there's something an Epic Level character can do, Gods can do it better - both because they're Epic Level characters and 20D Outsiders themselves AND because Divine Salient abilities often mimic, combine and enhance the effects of similar Epic Feats. Plus, the moment you speak a god's name or titles, or interact with a member of its priesthood, it knows about you. Several weeks before you do anything relating to its portfolios, it knows about you - even if you don't know you're going to do it yet. As for there being no easy way to get divine ranks... there shouldn't be. Ever. Becoming Divine is not like levelling up, and it requires nothing short of DMs approval to gain even a divine rank of 0 (even if there is a prestige class that allows it, DM approval is needed before you take a level in that class), let alone increase to one higher (think of it this way - not even Divine Creatures have any natural way of increasing their divine rank... why should mortals be any different?)
evangelion1010 03-02-05, 12:53 PM	Great ideas all. I can't believe this got 35+ replies in under 24 hours... I am liking Kahn's idea the most at this point, and like the idea of the evil dragon god of strength and fury... Of course if we could somehow use a HIVE build...which gets 3-4k worth of charisma...And then use leadership...well... Not to mention depending on rulings, if as a diety you could somehow incorperate the hive into your being, using its scores...well, since you get charisma mod to just about everything... +1000-2000 to anything is something even gods are in awe of. Beyond that, a few questions - Is there any particular reason you picked black dragon over any other dragon? - What book is festering anger in? - How do you get past the hoard issue...(I guess this isn't that big a deal, if you take at least 1 level in dragon ascendant as soon as you get to fighter 16, since ECL 60 - ECL 34 is still a ton of gold) -Anyone have any suggestions on good classes to take that offer full BAB? Fighter is nice for feats, but i'm sure there are better ones.
Orion959 03-02-05, 02:07 PM	Hey everyone. Sorry to burst the 'Dragon Ascendant' idea bubble, but the Draconomicon says the DA becomes a 'quasi-diety' - It can still be physically killed, its type doesn't change, etc. There is no mention of Divine Rank anywhere. Although I thought that was such a good idea, I had to check. Cheers.
evangelion1010 03-02-05, 02:12 PM	A being with divine rank 0 is a quasi diety or hero diety, so by the rules i'd argue that it worked like that. All gods are mortal, at least with respect to being able to be killed in combat. They just can't die from almost anything else.
Roboradish 03-02-05, 02:18 PM	Of course if we could somehow use a HIVE build...which gets 3-4k worth of charisma...And then use leadership...well... Not to mention depending on rulings, if as a diety you could somehow incorperate the hive into your being, using its scores...well, since you get charisma mod to just about everything... +1000-2000 to anything is something even gods are in awe of. What's this HIVE build thingy? 3-4k CHA? Woah.
Darken 03-02-05, 02:28 PM	A being with divine rank 0 is a quasi diety or hero diety, so by the rules i'd argue that it worked like that. All gods are mortal, at least with respect to being able to be killed in combat. They just can't die from almost anything else.Uhh... no. Quasi-deity does not have any Divine ranks. Divine rank 0 is Demi-deity.
Khan the Destroyer 03-02-05, 03:08 PM	Sorry to burst the bubbles of the bubble-bursters, but: Deities and Demigods, page 25: Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities..... It goes on to say not to confuse Divine Rank 0 with having no rank at all. They are two different things. A mortal has no divine rank, while a deity can have anywhere form rank 0 to rank 21. When the dragon reaches level 12 in Dragon Ascendant, it beocmes immortal and becomes a quasi-deity, meaning it has Divine Rank 0. There is no particular reason for Black Dragon. I figured you could get away with slaughtering good deities by being evil, and I think the Black dragon looks coolest. Feel free to use any other dragon. Festering Anger is in Book of Vile Darkness. As for the hoard, I don't know. Try spending as much as you can until your hoard is only 100,000 GP in value, then consume. After that, your dragon will have the treasure it acquires from that level on. I am not sure about what other classes to use other than fighter, does anyone else have any ideas for a class? For that matter, the paragon template isn't really needed, and that would free up 11 levels as well. I'll say it Khan BRAVO! Aren't there charts showing the worship base of deities in Forgotten Realms? Can we break Leadership to give a large enough base? Thanks. I am not sure. Where would they be found? In Faiths and Pantheons? I don't have that book :). In either case, the Deities and Demigods book says that Greater Deities have millions of worshipers. A number that high can most likely be achieved with Festering Anger and Might Makes Right. Maybe we could incorporate a H.I.V.E build in there with the 11 levels free if we take out Paragon (note that a couple of those fighter levels are also not needed since BAB +30 will be achieved before then). That gives about 15 levels to try a H.I.V.E build. I'll try it out and post later.
AviLazar 03-02-05, 04:05 PM	Toss on the SDA that allows them to automatically control Undead, and whatever else you want to deal with any construct PCs that come after them. It is even possible that they could forsee their deaths far enough into the future to kill you before you even thought about killing them... (Gotta love Time paradoxes) Is this something like "Minority Report" :rofl: I figure the DM wants this to happen it can....they could have an entire campaign where they climb the "corporate" ladder - but eventually some deity is going to realize what is going on (maybe after the 3rd or 4th demi-god's die) and be like "hold the phone, this seems familiar" But what about using a psion (telepath) with the threallherd prc) that gives you a bunch of followers? Then ensure all your other telepaths are also psion (telepaths) with the same prc....before you know it, you have an army of thousands of followers - ranging from level 1 to you at level 60....and even a few level 59's......talk about a lot of raw psionic power to sling in one potential round. :)
PhaedrusXY 03-02-05, 04:51 PM	That's freakin' brilliant with the Dragon Ascendant. I don't own the Draconomicon and had forgotten about that class. Combining it with the HIVE is a great idea too, and I know just how to do it. :D The Dragon Ascendant takes Leadership, and has the Hive Master be his Cohort. The Hive Master declares the Dragon Ascendant to be a part of the HIVE when it's created. Hence, the Dragon Ascendant actually gets all the insane bonuses of the HIVE, even though the Hive Master himself doesn't. Then the Dragon Ascendant takes Epic Leadership, and with his 4-digit Charisma score he'll easily have enough followers to make him a greater deity (I think). This is now the most broken build on the C.O. board. Congratulations all. :heehee Edit: I'm not sure if the above is legal. I don't own any of the books involved to pull it off, so someone else will have to check, hehe. Don't forget that Polymorph actually changes your type now, and so can be used to qualify for strange things, at least temporarily.
Lavis Knight 03-02-05, 05:12 PM	Maybe you should redirect your focus? Keep in mind that you are lvl 60 Characters! Kill all the followers of the specific deity you wish to eliminate. Be sure to side with one of that Deities enemies of equal or so Divine Rank so they can protect you from Direct invervention. After you widdle away enough people i am sure they will lose power.... right? ^^ -Lavis
Khelvaster 03-02-05, 07:45 PM	Hulking. Hurler. IIRC the build has half-celestial, so it is outsider, not mortal.
Tempest Stormwind 03-02-05, 07:45 PM	Combine all of the above. Khan's Dragon Ascendant (for flavor, I'd take one of the evil paladin variants in UA instead of fighter. Nothing like a being annointed by gods to slay gods), with a H.I.V.E. cohort (which could, in theory, use ur-priest instead of cleric... again, stealing the powers of the gods to end up with the most powerful arcane caster in existence, designed to slay gods...)... and directing the followers on a crusade against the nonbelievers, either converting them to your religion (Imagine if every one of those cohorts were diplo-bards! You're dealing with NPCs here, so there's no immunity there) or slaying them outright if conversion is impossible. Deal with the biggies yourself, or with your H.I.V.E.mind -- even cross-class, it could get thousands of ranks in Diplomacy, and it's got an insane charisma anyway. This way, you get the best of all worlds -- a religion kickstarted by the rules, chaos on earth caused by a holy war, more converts from NPC ranks, diminished belief for the other gods... and so on and so forth. You also get the added buffer that once your holy war starts and you start getting new converts, Mystra can deny your weave all she wants, and your belief will just keep on coming. My only question: where does one go to look up the approximate number of worshippers? I assume it's deities/demigods, but I can't seem to find a table. EDITS -- Hulking Hurler has _no_ templates besides Tauric in there. That's it -- It could in theory layer on templates on the bear half until the bitter end, so long as the type never went above Magical Beast, and end up with a score higher than you think. However, I could kill a hulking hurler with a 6th level rogue. Any deity would LAUGH at this, as would many 21st level characters (Exceptional Deflection, Epic Dodge) and many other things. He's a DAMAGE EXERCISE, not a character build. And the H.I.V.E., for Roboradish, is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=386506). There's an insane potential for the most powerful caster in existence here -- as in, look-out-Cheater-of-Mystra powerful. As in, level 4000-sorceror-in-a-bag. Fresh daily.
evangelion1010 03-02-05, 08:43 PM	Things to get... Divine grace (irony...) - with an insane charisma, and the fact that deities don't fail on a roll of a 1, i pass any saving throw they can throw at me. (you can use the blackgruard ability, or anyother one that allows charisma to all saves) Since you essentiall can't fail a save at this point, mettle and evasion are golden. Hexblade 3/ rogue 2 will give you them, with 1 point of BAB lost. You also get your charisma again to saves vs spells. Cha to deflection AC from 7th level dragon ascendent means that no attacks will hit execpt on a 20. Alter reality (requires cha 29): basically a more powerful wish spell, as a standard action. No xp required. As a benefit it can cast any spell 9th or lower, at 20+divine rank+cha modifier. (this makes the swarm's casting pretty much unimportant, since it has unlimited uses - not that the swarms 1000's of 9th level spells were in any danger of being used up) The really odd thing is that i control my cohort who controls the hive that i'm a part of...and i'm somehow a god... I suppose all that matters is that i control both of them. Still, there has to be a way to make sure that the cohort doesn't somehow get controlled himself. At the rate this is going...well, it should be fun on faerun.
SigmaJargon 03-02-05, 08:45 PM	I don't think there is a well defined table of # of worshipers to achieve divine rank X. There is a little blurb for each of the categories rank 0-20, though Rank 0: *snip* They may have some worshipers. *snip* Rank 1–5: *snip* A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. *snip* Rank 6–10: *snip* Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. *snip* Rank 11–15: *snip* They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities. Rank 16–20: *snip* these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities.*snip*So, presumably, we only have to get in the millions to achieve a Greater Deity rank. This would take a minimum Leadership score of 857, assuming you have Legendary Commander. (If i did my calculations right, leadership 857 would result in 1,000,920 followers) All too easy with a H.I.V.E. Let us simply assume you take as your cohort a Druid 10 / Vermin Lord 10 / (Whatever) X with the Child of Winter feat from Ebberon. This will cast spells as at least a 16th level druid (10 druid + 6 vermin lord). Use a high level Summon Nature's Ally to summon 1d4+1 locust swarms. Do so until you have 17 swarms. With a minimum 2 swarms per casting, and a duration of 16 rounds each, this is all too easy. Polymorph into something that is an animal or a vermin. Now have your cohort bind you and the swarms into a hivemind. With 17 locust swarms, you will have an Int of 1707, gain a bonus of 1702 to your charisma score, and have access to spells as a 1687 level sorcerer. Together with your HD and massively boosted charisma, your leadership score should be plenty high enough to break a million followers. Welcome to greater deity-hood, your majesty :D EDIT: Alternatively, you could get the same results with 9 wasp swarms. Only need a caster level 36 for Gate or UMD check of 56 for staff of Gate.
LosGunD 03-02-05, 09:12 PM	This is FR right?? If the becoming a deity thing doesn't work, just maximize epic spellcasting ability (REALLY REALLY HIGH) and then cast an epic spell to kill everyone in the world. With no one to worship them, no more godhood!
warpdragon 03-02-05, 09:54 PM	LosGunD: screw epic spellcasting, just bloow up the world with the Hurler. And everyone is forgetting this is an entire party. Multiply the entire build by 4 since the other party members could just tell their followers to pray to a specific party member.
Khan the Destroyer 03-02-05, 11:14 PM	I don't think there is a well defined table of # of worshipers to achieve divine rank X. There is a little blurb for each of the categories rank 0-20, though Yes, this is what I was basing my assupmtion on. This, and another excerpt on page 13. There, it says that deities are independent of worshipers, but draw power from them. In other words, the creator deities (Gruumsh, Corellon, Yondalla, Garl, etc...) do not need worshipers to be gods, but they are stronger because of their worshipers. Likewise, a Dragon Ascendant does not need worshipers to be a diety (he has Divine Rank 0 by virtue of the prestige class) but he can draw power from them. Other than that, there is no set method to rise in divine ranks by attaining worshipers (that I know of). Evangelion1010, I agree with the suggestion of variant Paladin. It has nice flavor, and gets you Divine Grace, and even turning, which you can use for Divine Might (and add your charisma to hit and damage). Ur-Priest is good as well... actually, All of Tempest's suggestions are good. As for the rest of the party.... If you hit Divine Rank 20, you can give four other people a divine rank and still be a greater deity. Then they can use their own methods of attaining higher ranks.
HoshiAdam 03-02-05, 11:47 PM	If the swarms the HIVE are controlling have that high an intelligence, can they count as worshipers?
PhaedrusXY 03-02-05, 11:53 PM	If the swarms the HIVE are controlling have that high an intelligence, can they count as worshipers?Yeah, I'd thought of that earlier, but forgot to post it, hehe. I'd say yes. If not, you could always awaken them. :P
Squirrelloid 03-03-05, 12:47 AM	"I laughed. I cried. It moved me bob." I love you guys! :pint:
Tempest Stormwind 03-03-05, 12:54 AM	Why stop there? Why not simply have the H.I.V.E. Gate in everyone from the entire multiverse and use that insane charisma to some good effect? I won't go so far as to actually explore the possibility of the hivemind gaining actual levels... but if it could, can you imagine giving it levels in that epic PrC that's entirely based on this, the High Prostetlyzer (or something)? Or, for that matter, YOU take levels of that, and have your hivemind use the epic spells as needed to send your charisma from here to Mars.
HamHam 03-03-05, 01:11 AM	Take a page from Televangelism: find a way to telepathically contact lots of people simultaniosly. Makes it a lot easier to recruit masses at once.
NineInchNall 03-03-05, 01:16 AM	While the whole "deific power dependent upon worshippers" thing sort of makes no sense to me, combining a Dragon Ascendent with the HiVE has got to be the single most brokity broken thing I've ever seen. :shocked: I should show this to my DMs. :ayyyy!: Hell, they'd probably let me play the Word before they allowed this into any of their games. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Khan the Destroyer 03-03-05, 01:40 AM	Indeed. What kind of penalty to Diplomacy would the hivemind get for being a mass of crawling vermin? In either case, it could steal the worshipers from every other deity and make them fanatic followers of the Evil-Newly-Ascended-Dragon-God-of-Fury-and-Strength. I feel bad for your party members :(. They could never hope to keep up :). Unless, upon achieving DR 20, you impart upon them divinty, and use your Hivemind's silver tongue to obain worshipers for your newly ascended party members, increasing their ranks. I think this would be most viable. Or, you can act like the nice guy, and suggest to them Cheater of Mystra, Hulking Hurler, King of Smack, and Blastificer, only to blow them all out of the water in the end! Also, consider using Time Duplicate from the Epic Level Handbook. Alter Reality can render magical and supernatural effects permanent. Cast Time Duplicate to snatch your future self and bring him to the present, then render the effect permanent. You now have another you :). Rinse and repeat. Swarm the deities of FR with an army of Greater Deities, that are all you. Hmmmm.... if the Dragon could turn himself and all of his Time Duplicates into vermin or animals, the Verminlord could create a Hivemind consisting of only Greater Deities. The Dragon and his Duplicates can use Alter Size to change their size to Fine (uber strength score is kept because of the bonus from Festering Anger). Then, the Verminlord casts Shapechange on all of them (or they snag the Salient Divine Abilities to do it themselves), turning them into some Vermin form, and creates the Hivemind... of Greater Deities. A bit excessive, but if it works that would be awesome! Hmmm, now that I think of it it probably wouldn't be good to reduce the actions of all of those deities to one action with a Hivemind. I don't know, my imagination sped off.
Tempest Stormwind 03-03-05, 02:11 AM	Indeed. What kind of penalty to Diplomacy would the hivemind get for being a mass of crawling vermin? In either case, it could steal the worshipers from every other deity and make them fanatic followers of the Evil-Newly-Ascended-Dragon-God-of-Fury-and-Strength. I feel bad for your party members :(. They could never hope to keep up :). Unless, upon achieving DR 20, you impart upon them divinty, and use your Hivemind's silver tongue to obain worshipers for your newly ascended party members, increasing their ranks. I think this would be most viable. Or, you can act like the nice guy, and suggest to them Cheater of Mystra, Hulking Hurler, King of Smack, and Blastificer, only to blow them all out of the water in the end! Also, consider using Time Duplicate from the Epic Level Handbook. Alter Reality can render magical and supernatural effects permanent. Cast Time Duplicate to snatch your future self and bring him to the present, then render the effect permanent. You now have another you :). Rinse and repeat. Swarm the deities of FR with an army of Greater Deities, that are all you. Hmmmm.... if the Dragon could turn himself and all of his Time Duplicates into vermin or animals, the Verminlord could create a Hivemind consisting of only Greater Deities. The Dragon and his Duplicates can use Alter Size to change their size to Fine (uber strength score is kept because of the bonus from Festering Anger). Then, the Verminlord casts Shapechange on all of them (or they snag the Salient Divine Abilities to do it themselves), turning them into some Vermin form, and creates the Hivemind... of Greater Deities. A bit excessive, but if it works that would be awesome! Hmmm, now that I think of it it probably wouldn't be good to reduce the actions of all of those deities to one action with a Hivemind. I don't know, my imagination sped off. 1) Penalties as to being a vermin? With a charisma of over 1000 and nearly as many sorceror levels, I think he'd be able to make a suitably charming and unpiercable illusion. ^_^ 2) Yes, but then you get into time paradoxes... because if you pull yourself from three seconds later into the present and then anchor him, if you pull yourself from two seconds later into the present, the three-seconds-later version will vanish, as it won't exist three seconds later to be pulled back.... Good idea, but Time Duplicate isn't the way to do it. 3) Oh, I'd say a single greater deity armed with more worshippers than there are stars in the known cosmos, and the H.I.V.E., is more than powerful enough. Even for the CO boards. Even for the EPIC boards. Hell, even for D&D in general, and we're encroaching on power curves not seen since Exalted or BESM. When this guy grins, Ao probably says "I fold."
Khan the Destroyer 03-03-05, 02:44 AM	1) Penalties as to being a vermin? With a charisma of over 1000 and nearly as many sorceror levels, I think he'd be able to make a suitably charming and unpiercable illusion. ^_^ Undoubtedly! :) 2) Yes, but then you get into time paradoxes... because if you pull yourself from three seconds later into the present and then anchor him, if you pull yourself from two seconds later into the present, the three-seconds-later version will vanish, as it won't exist three seconds later to be pulled back.... Good idea, but Time Duplicate isn't the way to do it. Crud. Well, the EPH goes into it a little bit. It says there are many possible future "you's" so to speak, and that when you cast the spell, it causes one of those possibilities to be the real you 1 round into the future. I might argue that since you anchor your future self in the present, the time stream chooses another one of those "possible you's" to exist. By grabbing one and keeping it, the time stream is forced to replace it with another. Of course, I said I might argue. But I won't. My lack of knowledge of the temporal stream and the fact that this guy is uber beyond belief already will let this rest :). 3) Oh, I'd say a single greater deity armed with more worshippers than there are stars in the known cosmos, and the H.I.V.E., is more than powerful enough. Even for the CO boards. Even for the EPIC boards. Hell, even for D&D in general, and we're encroaching on power curves not seen since Exalted or BESM. Very true. I just thought a 10' diameter hivemind composed solely of greater deities would be funny. The example in the BoVD says that if you deal 9 damage to a swarm of rats, you kill 9 rats. DM: Bane deals 1367 damage to your little hivemind :evillaugh! Player: Ok, one of my greater deities is slain, but the Hivemind remains, and is now royally ****** off. DM: :weep: :bigeyes: :surrender When this guy grins, Ao probably says "I fold." If Ao isn't destroyed by the hellacious smile that someone with a charisma in the thousands has. ... I would really like to say that this guy could kill the Lady of Pain... but he can't. As an NPC though, isn't she subject to a diplomacy check... by an extremely charismatic swarm of like-minded creepy-crawly's? All it takes is a dice roll, and the Hivemind will turn the Lady into a fanatic follower of the dragon god :).
Vatras 03-03-05, 02:50 AM	You know, only Ao can grant you divine rank in the FR, and it does not matter, if an orc chief makes 500.000 orcs pray to him....he still is an orc. Nobody can elevate himself to the rank of deity there. Dragon Ascendants are not gods either. If you want to go by flavor text, it also says, that they take the class to become better servants of the gods. Going by the written word, they dont get divine rank, and thats that. There is also another small problem lurking in the wings... Lets assume you actually get in a position to usurp a deity´s place by slaying him... Now remember the roman empire in its decline. Emperors came and went at an alarming rate, in a single year they had 6 of them! Now, since you, a puny mortal managed to kill a god and become one, you are in the emperors place. Everyone saw its possible and will try their hand at it, until one succeeds sooner or later :)
PhaedrusXY 03-03-05, 03:26 AM	You know, only Ao can grant you divine rank in the FR, and it does not matter, if an orc chief makes 500.000 orcs pray to him....he still is an orc. Nobody can elevate himself to the rank of deity there.That's about the equivalent of the DM saying "No, you can't win because I won't let you." Ao is the DM. He is purely a meta-game plot device, much like the Lady of Pain. This build is made for a contest in which it is assumed the players are to make characters capable of fighting gods. When the DM is actually presented with such a character and the best answer he can come up with is "No, you can't do that.", it is the same thing as admitting that you beat him, in my opinion. Also, the whole thing of Ao not granting them Divine Rank is superfluous because of the next section. Dragon Ascendants are not gods either. If you want to go by flavor text, it also says, that they take the class to become better servants of the gods. Going by the written word, they dont get divine rank, and thats that.This was addressed earlier in the thread. It says they become quasi-deities, which is one of the descriptions in the flavor text of Divine Rank 0 beings. A quasi-deity is defined as a being with Divine Rank 0. It is basically the same as calling someone a ranger. It is a defined game term. From the SRD: Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Lets assume you actually get in a position to usurp a deity´s place by slaying him... Now remember the roman empire in its decline. Emperors came and went at an alarming rate, in a single year they had 6 of them! Now, since you, a puny mortal managed to kill a god and become one, you are in the emperors place. Everyone saw its possible and will try their hand at it, until one succeeds sooner or later :) Who cares. The idea is to make a character capable of killing the gods, not holding your new position for eternity. This is more of a "Create a Raistlin" exercise, not "become God".
ophanimx 03-03-05, 04:01 AM	I also wanted to add that there are more then one god killing artifacts in FR. Don't remember the names or details of any, but hey, it's happened before. Didn't Murkul (or something along those lines) die at the hands of Bane and Cynic, mortals at the time? Then there's Vasharoon (again, I could be fudging the spelling), who was granted godhood by Tsomething.. There are no "mechanics" behind this, but I'm just point out it's possible. Still. Having a Hulking Hurler throw something through a portal to destory all of Toril is another possible solution. The only god with the portal domain is Shandakul, and it's iffy if he'd sense it comming if the characters were on another plane to start with.
Zerolight 03-03-05, 05:10 AM	Remember when Rastlin was killing all the Dragonlance gods. Ahh what great times. I would second the killing off all the worshipers idea. Allong with alliences with other pantheons or powers. I would also try to be a construct or some other type of non living but not undead creature. Hey and while yer at it let as many Abominations run lose as you can, tear down planer borders, set powers agaisnt each other, collect artifacts and give aways the ones you can't use to fools and pick the right places to actually exsert your strength and influence. There is opertunity in chaos.
evangelion1010 03-03-05, 07:45 AM	Like i said, giving me 60 levels to do this was a serious insult to the CO boards. Even if he rejects HIVE, dragon ascendent is still very legal, and obtaining divine rank 0 without the DM's approval is something fairly notable. As far as charisma, realize no one has a charisma score over 100 in D&D. Getting it to 2000 is the point where people are mind controlled by your mere thoughts, from across the multiverse. This isn't to unimanginable, since you are a god...far more powerful than the ones written about in the books. Heck, i think i found my goal after i kill the gods... merge every mortal creature into some sort of expanded hive mind. We now not only have one of the most broken characters (even if it is a 60th level one), and not only that, we've got pretty good background development. Is there anyway we can incorperate the feat that gives a caster hp based off their prime spellcasting stat rather than con for first level? I'm not sure how that would work, but it should add a good deal of hp to the HIVE total, if not to the individual members (depends also on how good improved toughness is)
Zzasrix 03-03-05, 07:57 AM	Personally if i was going to kill the gods, i would go with a non caster and axe mystra first. Once magic is no longer available you can start looking at all of the abilities to see if it is in any way magical and have those thrown out. And to the people who say you cant kill gods... what about the Netheresse(sp) wizard who killed Mystra the first time around? The only reason she game back (IIRC) was AO. Perhaps trying one of the party members as a Diplomificer would be a great idea. Challenge the most powerful god with diplomacy (ill look up my FR gods somtime today) as a portfolio to an incredibly public debate. Set it for a year in advance. You want it so far so that anyone who actually wants to see it can be there, and it will be far enough in advance so that he wont be able to sense what's coming. The conditions: whoever wins the debate is the god of dipomacy. (Who would actually follow a diplomacy god that lost a debate??) Once you have turned him Fanatical you can have him imbue the rest of the party with a small amount of godhood (rank: 0) and give the rest to you. I know you can probably get a bonus to diplomacy in the thousands so winning the debate is a mute point. The next thing you can do, while all these thousands and thousands of people are around is.... convert them as well. You wouldnt need to burn feats on leadership, and each one of them would be a fanatical worshiper of you (and your friends if you suggested). Hmmm... Would a death ward ability help block the insta-death abilities from the gods? There is another PrC in Dragonomicon that allows a character to use that as an ability (not a spell; so you dont need gods or a magic weave to fuel it) that will sheild in a sphere 30 ft out from him. Mind over Body (Mind over matter... who knows) in the PGtF allows you to take your Int mod instead of your con mod to HP at first level.... ;)
Khazra Reborn 03-03-05, 11:44 AM	Ok...sorry but who is Ao....i assumed asomodeous, would that be right?
ophanimx 03-03-05, 12:14 PM	.... no. Ao is the "Supreme" god of Toril. All other gods pay him heed. Sort of like Zues, only. Bigger, I suppose. It's my understanding that it's been hinted he pays heed to even greater dieties.
Zzasrix 03-03-05, 12:16 PM	AO is THE God (yes the caps in God is on purpose) in the FR setting. He created the other gods, and maintains some form of balance. One more question i had... is the group supposed to take on all the pantheons or just the main one? For example will you be trying to take on the Halfling Pantheon, or the Drow Pantheon? Not that it makes a difference really because once you've moved past just killing one god... whats a few dozen more?
Dark Kyosuke 03-03-05, 12:51 PM	Ao's existance was hinted at during the Time of Troubles (I think). You mean to say that since then, it has been PROVEN? :raincloud
Vorlir 03-03-05, 01:11 PM	There was no hint involved, I read the books years ago but he appeared in the books. I don't recall if he appeared to Toril or not, but I think he did when he raised Midnight/Cyric/Kelemvor to godhood. But he definitely appeared. edit: Oh, and the way that Cyric killed those gods was because his weapon was a god, it was Mask disguised as that sword. So, really, it was Cyric and Mask killing those gods. IIRC
Creeg 03-03-05, 01:17 PM	If you intnd to go against all of the gods, you had better do it without magic as both Mystra and Shar will cut you off from the weave and the shadow weave, even if you are already a deity.. wait no... if you intend to kill all the gods you'd have to kill yourself then too...
El_Machinae 03-03-05, 01:18 PM	Man, that H.I.V.E. has been a great find... Let's assume that the DM will not allow the H.I.V.E. and that the DM will not allow festering anger. I know it's brutal conditions, but right now we have this fellow showing up to the game, spending 30 minutes explaining the rules to the DM and then the DM looking at him and saying "You're right. You win. Everyone can go home." I don't know the Deity's rules enough but is divine rank 0 enough to protect the character from the 'uberkilling' potential of the gods? If so, maybe we can make this somewhat of a fair fight. (Though I still like the synergistic effect of a swarm of thousands of greater deities....that's an unprecedented level of power described in various fantasies).
Need_A_Life 03-03-05, 03:05 PM	Well it was the ability to kill any MORTAL. You wouldn't even need to be a god (although a dragon god is my dream!) Once I get to see the group I'm looking to join I'll persuade the DM (a very good friend of mine) to let me use certain PrCs and then 'bring justice' to the world (hey, the gods are enslaving us, right? They are choosing who lives and who dies, and the best thing is; they'll see you coming and there's nothing they can do about it. :D ) Wonder what happens when you slay a god of death, though. You'd probably have to take his place, otherwise the worlds would become quite crowded... WAIT! H.I.V.E. would make up for that, and when you have to go somewhere.... blow a way through the masses. You'll be using it's spellcasting, so it's to blame for the individuals lost and killing everyone in a long line to get to the phone (artifact) does give you enough bonus to intimidate that no one would dare attack you anyway.
Khan the Destroyer 03-03-05, 03:46 PM	Dragon Ascendants are not gods either. If you want to go by flavor text, it also says, that they take the class to become better servants of the gods. Going by the written word, they dont get divine rank, and thats that. No it doesn't say that. What it says is that the Sacred Warders of Bahamut, Unholy Ravagers of Tiamat, and Dispassionate Watchers of Chronepsis sometimes take the class to become more perfect servants to their deities. This is saying that some dragons that are already devoted to a deity take the class because it makes them more perfect. That does nothing to refute whether or not the 12th level ability makes you a deity. Further, the 12th level ability says: A 12th level Dragon Ascendant is actually a quasi-deity... Deities and Demigods, page 219 under Campaign Idea: ....Since the dawn of time, all the mortals who ascended are simple quasi-deities (divine rank 0).... There is certainly no confusion there. A quasi-deity has Divine Rank 0, period. Man, that H.I.V.E. has been a great find... Let's assume that the DM will not allow the H.I.V.E. and that the DM will not allow festering anger. I know it's brutal conditions, but right now we have this fellow showing up to the game, spending 30 minutes explaining the rules to the DM and then the DM looking at him and saying "You're right. You win. Everyone can go home." I don't know the Deity's rules enough but is divine rank 0 enough to protect the character from the 'uberkilling' potential of the gods? If so, maybe we can make this somewhat of a fair fight. No, Divine Rank 0 is not enough. To stand a chance against all of the gods, he will need to be a greater deity himself, and ideally have 20 ranks, since most greater deities in the game do not even have 20 divine ranks. Many Salient Divine Abilities do not work against gods of higher rank, or can be protected against. However, we can try without the H.I.V.E. or Festering Anger and see what we get.... Let's assume the same Leadership score I started out with, since that was pretty basic. That gets you a 56th level Cohort. Make that Cohort a spellcaster (preferably Wizard) with at least 7 levels in Cosmic Descryer. Boot that cohort to the Plane of Positive Energy, which gives you 5 temporary hit points every round (they stack with themselves). Your cohort needs to get cozy at this point, because he's going to be spending a lot of time here. As an intermediate deity (thanks to your followers from Leadership) you can provide the cohort with protection and anything else he needs. While chilling in the plane for at least a year, the cohort is preparing some Epic spells with enormous DC's. Spells to increase your stats, or Spell resistance, or whatever. You provide the gold needed, and get your hands on a Rod of Excellent Magic (Alter Reality to duplicate Wish) to negate the XP cost for the spell. In 1 year your cohort will gain 5,256,000 temporary hit points. Your cohort will use his Cosmic Connection ability to add a 1,051,200 bonus to his Spellcraft check by taking 5,256,000 points of damage, then the dragon makes it permanent with Alter Reality, since Cosmic Connection is a supernatural ability and Alter Reality can make effects from Supernatural abilities permanent (the Dragon can also use Alter Reality to duplicate Wish and wish that you automatically make your save vs. Death from Massive Damage). With an Epic Spell just using the Fortify seed and that bonus to Spellcraft, you can get a spell that increases your ability score by 525,591 points. Hmmm, I would choose Charisma :). With levels in Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter and levels in Dragon Ascendant, you would be adding at least a 262,795 Deflection bonus to your AC, and a 262,795 bonus to your saving throws. Divine Might gets you a 262,795 bonus to your damage. The kicker though is the Salient Divine Ability, Divine Blast. Assuming you are Divine Rank 20 (which with a Charisma Score of over 500,000 you should be), you can fire a ray from 20 miles away and hit someone for 20d12 (1d12/rank) + 262,795d12 (1d12/charisma bonus). Since Greater Deities always roll max, that is 3,153,780 damage from 20 miles away. Mass Divine Blast allows you to hit 5 targets per rank! With Sunder and Disjoin, you can pretty much guarantee the destruction of any weapon that hits you, since the saving throw is charisma-based. Since the effect of Cosmic Connection is made permanent, your cohort can continue making epic spells that do truly epic things with that uber high Spellcraft check. Just use your imagination.
Tempest Stormwind 03-03-05, 04:09 PM	Ao, to my knowledge, has only interacted directly with written FR history twice -- starting, and ending, the Time of Troubles. All we know about him can be summed up as: 1) He's the overgod. If you can call him a he (we use that pronoun out of a generic sense). 2) He doesn't grant spells if people worship him. 3) He had enough power to instantly shuck all the gods to mortalhood except Helm (whom he appointed to prevent any god from returning until he said so). He did this, supposedly, because the gods had grown arrogant and didn't care too much for their worshippers anymore. (I think.) 4) He seems to be apathetic. Whether this is actually the case, whether he manages many other universes, or whether he's only got power over other gods, we don't know. Does anyone know what will actually *happen* to the Weave if Mystra dies? Would you have to claim her portfolio to keep it working? And if you do, would that gain you Deny Weave? Looks like all those Epic Board members who despise Midnight finally have reason to cheer, because she's likely to be number one on the Divine Hit List.
Ra-Tiel 03-03-05, 06:32 PM	Hello. If I might add my own two cp? [...] There is certainly no confusion there. A quasi-deity has Divine Rank 0, period. [...] Yes, but the description doesn't say ".. and gains Divine Rank 0 as described in Deities & Demigods...". By the way: I have found a prove that the Dragon Ascendant is *not* a Divine Rank 0 entity: on page 92 in the Draconomicon under the description of the Ascendant's spell resistance it says: Spell Resistance (Ex): At 11th level, a dragon ascendant's spell resistance increases to 33. But according to D&DG a deity has spell resistance 32 + divine rank. And for divine rank 0 it means spell resistance 32, and not 33. This discrepancy proves that the dragon ascendant is not a divine rank 0 entity. It's a small difference, but it does exist. No, Divine Rank 0 is not enough. To stand a chance against all of the gods, he will need to be a greater deity himself, and ideally have 20 ranks, since most greater deities in the game do not even have 20 divine ranks. Many Salient Divine Abilities do not work against gods of higher rank, or can be protected against. However, we can try without the H.I.V.E. or Festering Anger and see what we get.... Let's assume the same Leadership score I started out with, since that was pretty basic. That gets you a 56th level Cohort. Make that Cohort a spellcaster (preferably Wizard) with at least 7 levels in Cosmic Descryer. Boot that cohort to the Plane of Positive Energy, which gives you 5 temporary hit points every round (they stack with themselves). Your cohort needs to get cozy at this point, because he's going to be spending a lot of time here. As an intermediate deity (thanks to your followers from Leadership) you can provide the cohort with protection and anything else he needs. While chilling in the plane for at least a year, the cohort is preparing some Epic spells with enormous DC's. Spells to increase your stats, or Spell resistance, or whatever. You provide the gold needed, and get your hands on a Rod of Excellent Magic (Alter Reality to duplicate Wish) to negate the XP cost for the spell. In 1 year your cohort will gain 5,256,000 temporary hit points. Your cohort will use his Cosmic Connection ability to add a 1,051,200 bonus to his Spellcraft check by taking 5,256,000 points of damage, then the dragon makes it permanent with Alter Reality, since Cosmic Connection is a supernatural ability and Alter Reality can make effects from Supernatural abilities permanent (the Dragon can also use Alter Reality to duplicate Wish and wish that you automatically make your save vs. Death from Massive Damage). With an Epic Spell just using the Fortify seed and that bonus to Spellcraft, you can get a spell that increases your ability score by 525,591 points. Hmmm, I would choose Charisma :). With levels in Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter and levels in Dragon Ascendant, you would be adding at least a 262,795 Deflection bonus to your AC, and a 262,795 bonus to your saving throws. Divine Might gets you a 262,795 bonus to your damage. The kicker though is the Salient Divine Ability, Divine Blast. Assuming you are Divine Rank 20 (which with a Charisma Score of over 500,000 you should be), you can fire a ray from 20 miles away and hit someone for 20d12 (1d12/rank) + 262,795d12 (1d12/charisma bonus). Since Greater Deities always roll max, that is 3,153,780 damage from 20 miles away. Mass Divine Blast allows you to hit 5 targets per rank! With Sunder and Disjoin, you can pretty much guarantee the destruction of any weapon that hits you, since the saving throw is charisma-based. Since the effect of Cosmic Connection is made permanent, your cohort can continue making epic spells that do truly epic things with that uber high Spellcraft check. Just use your imagination. I don't think the descryer's naturalization ability protects from the major positive-dominant trait of the Positive Energy Plane. The description of the class ability specifically states that only spells and spell-like effects can be adapted to. And I don't think the m.p-d trait is a spell effect. Or am I mistaken? If not, your cohort will probably go *splat* after a few minutes on the Positive Energy Plane. Naturalization (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the cosmic descryer develops a natural affinity for one plane that he or she has visited, becoming resistant to any spells and spell-like effects that would normally affect any creature not native to that plane. Every two levels thereafter, the cosmic descryer gains naturalization to one additional plane. Positive-Dominant: [...] Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive- dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it. And just a single question: how would you attain Divine Rank 20 in Forgotten Realms if Ao simply says: "nope"? Don't take this personally, but I've seen someone whine about how that was just house-ruling the PCs. But that's simply the way these matters are handled in FR, so please don't continue that whining. Next time I guess someone will cry out how unfair the Weave is to Dweomercheaters or something... :nonono: (And no, even with Cha 1.7*10^71 you could not charm or dominate Ao. AO. AO!. The same stunt would be going over to the "Other Worlds" Forum and telling the Planescape folks that you're going to charm the Lady of Pain. At first they would be :blink:, then :rofl: and finally :mage:, :rant: or :looloo:, depending on the individual poster. _Ra-Tiel. PS: Who said the deities would even allow your character to become level 20, let alone 60? Don't forget that Kelemvor also has the Fate domain, so I guess that would also fall under his portfolio sense. PPS: And as my last comment: ok, you can take on the god. But can you also take on his 8 avatars, his 16(?) proxies, some hundreds of his heralds, some thousands of his celestial servants and finally some ten thousands of his mortal followers? And that all at once? I guess alone the ~500 slaying arrows from his Solar bodyguard each round can definitively ruin your day! ;)
evangelion1010 03-03-05, 07:25 PM	Honestly, charisma to saving throws, saving throws of 1 aren't auto fail. How are those slaying arrows working again... 3 million of them, i wouldn't fail a single saving throw...plus as part of the dragon ascendent class you are immune to death effects i believe... Like was mentioned, provided that you are able to get that insane charisma modifier, it doesn't matter really how many people he has, since i auto hit everyone for enough damage to take out a continent...and i take out 5/divine rank. I do this from 20 miles away, so if i gate to within 20 miles, we have a dead deity.... Not to mention with a charisma score that high, i would have more followers than were ever alive in the FR.... Still, i really don't think i want to try and manupilate my charisma *that* high. Its possible, but its really rediculous... and thats coming from a HIVE god character.
SigmaJargon 03-03-05, 07:35 PM	By the way: I have found a prove that the Dragon Ascendant is *not* a Divine Rank 0 entity: on page 92 in the Draconomicon under the description of the Ascendant's spell resistance it says: But according to D&DG a deity has spell resistance 32 + divine rank. And for divine rank 0 it means spell resistance 32, and not 33. This discrepancy proves that the dragon ascendant is not a divine rank 0 entity. It's a small difference, but it does exist.Thats a class ability which is completely serperate from the deific SR. Saying this means you don't become a quasi-deity because a seperate class ability granted you SR is like saying you won't become a quasi-deity because you are wearing a mantle of spell resistance. You gain both. However, SR generally doesn't stack (you take the highest SR you have and use only that), so while you remain a mere quasi-deity, your Dragon Ascendent SR will overrule the SR granted from being a Deity. Wacky, huh? :)
Ra-Tiel 03-03-05, 08:36 PM	@SigmaJargon: Thats a class ability which is completely serperate from the deific SR. Saying this means you don't become a quasi-deity because a seperate class ability granted you SR is like saying you won't become a quasi-deity because you are wearing a mantle of spell resistance. You gain both. However, SR generally doesn't stack (you take the highest SR you have and use only that), so while you remain a mere quasi-deity, your Dragon Ascendent SR will overrule the SR granted from being a Deity. Wacky, huh? :) I just disagree. The dragon ascendant just gains exactly every special feature that *usually* makes up divine rank 0 entity as "class ability" (hit die increase and max hp/hd, immunity to transmutation,...). But not SR. The SR the dragon ascendant gains is different from the SR divine rank 0 grants you. Therefore: d.a. != dr0. I like to look at the dragon ascendant as the "template class for dragons", just like dragon disciple is the "template class for non-dragons". --- @evangelion1010: Honestly, charisma to saving throws, saving throws of 1 aren't auto fail. How are those slaying arrows working again... 3 million of them, i wouldn't fail a single saving throw...plus as part of the dragon ascendent class you are immune to death effects i believe... Like was mentioned, provided that you are able to get that insane charisma modifier, it doesn't matter really how many people he has, since i auto hit everyone for enough damage to take out a continent...and i take out 5/divine rank. I do this from 20 miles away, so if i gate to within 20 miles, we have a dead deity.... Not to mention with a charisma score that high, i would have more followers than were ever alive in the FR.... Still, i really don't think i want to try and manupilate my charisma *that* high. Its possible, but its really rediculous... and thats coming from a HIVE god character. And how do you even get to the level where you gain hivemind? Do you not think Kelemvor (among others) couldn't sense you becoming a great threat to the whole pantheon 16 weeks before you actually do? And at that time I'm 100% positiv you would *not* survive a divine blast from a greater deity, or the undivided attention of one of his avatars or be protected from his SDAs. Also remember that the deities in D&DG and F&P are basically naked. At most they have a weapon and a mount. Give them equipment and epic spells available to that level and they would hand your a** to you even faster. And never forget: what if a divine bard just fascinates your nifty hivemind into dumbstaring holes in the air? Then suddenly you have a *HUGE* problem... hmm... _Ra-Tiel.
Isthramir 03-03-05, 08:58 PM	And how do you even get to the level where you gain hivemind? It's the premise of this thread. When chalenged to come up with an ECL 60 party that can kill the FR gods ti goes without saying that the characters were not killed before ECL 60. The GM in this case is not put himself in an adversarial role trying to stop the characters from killing these gods. It's meant to be a chalenge of character creation with the RAW ... not an exercise of GM powers to keep the players under controll.
Ra-Tiel 03-03-05, 09:53 PM	It's the premise of this thread. When chalenged to come up with an ECL 60 party that can kill the FR gods ti goes without saying that the characters were not killed before ECL 60. The GM in this case is not put himself in an adversarial role trying to stop the characters from killing these gods. It's meant to be a chalenge of character creation with the RAW ... not an exercise of GM powers to keep the players under controll. The problem is following: under the RAW there is no way for player characters to attain a divine rank (note that dragons are under the RAW not available as player characters); mortal ascension is purely optional according to D&DG and in Realms it is Ao's territory of allowing new deities in "his" realm. So the players are stuck with mortal characters, and that's the moment "Mass Life and Death" enters the stage. _Ra-Tiel.
SigmaJargon 03-03-05, 10:11 PM	(note that dragons are under the RAW not available as player characters); Whoa. What version of the Monster Manual are you using? Look in the 3.5 MM, look in the SRD. Dragons, or at least for the low age categories, have LA's listed, ergo, they may be played as characters.
Khan the Destroyer 03-04-05, 05:17 AM	Yes, but the description doesn't say ".. and gains Divine Rank 0 as described in Deities & Demigods...". If a quasi-deity is a being with Divine Rank 0, and you are a quasi-deity, does it not follow that you are a being with divine rank 0? I have quoted two passages from Deities and Demigods where it says that beings with Divine Rank 0 are called quasi-deities. The 12th level ability of the Dragon Ascendant specifically says that the Dragon is a quasi-deity. Might I also mention that name of the Dragon Ascendant prestige class is.... Dragon Ascendant. As in, the dragon ascends... to divinity. By the way: I have found a prove that the Dragon Ascendant is *not* a Divine Rank 0 entity: on page 92 in the Draconomicon under the description of the Ascendant's spell resistance it says: But according to D&DG a deity has spell resistance 32 + divine rank. And for divine rank 0 it means spell resistance 32, and not 33. This discrepancy proves that the dragon ascendant is not a divine rank 0 entity. It's a small difference, but it does exist. This is not proof that the Dragon does not become a quasi-deity. You Spell Resistance at that level that is stronger than what a dragon normally has. Ok. Then at level 12, you also gain the spell resistance for a quasi-deity. It happens to be lower, but it can get much higher. This does nothing to prove anything about quasi-deityhood and divine rank 0. I don't think the descryer's naturalization ability protects from the major positive-dominant trait of the Positive Energy Plane. The description of the class ability specifically states that only spells and spell-like effects can be adapted to. And I don't think the m.p-d trait is a spell effect. Or am I mistaken? If not, your cohort will probably go *splat* after a few minutes on the Positive Energy Plane. Whups, I forgot to mention that :). The dragon god would make a proxy out of his cohort. The cohort would then have Divine Rank 1, meaning he would no longer fail a saving throw on a natural roll of 1. And at level 56, his base save should be at least 24 for fortitude, meaning he will always make the DC 20 fortitude save to avoid exploding :). And just a single question: how would you attain Divine Rank 20 in Forgotten Realms if Ao simply says: "nope"? Don't take this personally, but I've seen someone whine about how that was just house-ruling the PCs. But that's simply the way these matters are handled in FR, so please don't continue that whining. Next time I guess someone will cry out how unfair the Weave is to Dweomercheaters or something... :nonono: Umm, because the 12th level ability of Dragon Ascendant makes a dragon a quasi-deity, giving him Divine Rank 0 and allowing him to rise in power by attaining worshipers. There is no clause that I can see in the Dragon Ascendant write-up referring to Ao. (And no, even with Cha 1.7*10^71 you could not charm or dominate Ao. AO. AO!. The same stunt would be going over to the "Other Worlds" Forum and telling the Planescape folks that you're going to charm the Lady of Pain. At first they would be :blink:, then :rofl: and finally :mage:, :rant: or :looloo:, depending on the individual poster. I never suggested altering Ao's attitude. But I did suggest altering the Lady's attitude. She is after all statted (even if just a little) and listed as an authority figure in Sigil. Sounds like an NPC to me, which means she can be my fanatic follower :evillaugh. I'm kidding by the way. I don't think we could really make the Lady a fanatic follower (unless of course she is subject to diplomacy checks). PS: Who said the deities would even allow your character to become level 20, let alone 60? Don't forget that Kelemvor also has the Fate domain, so I guess that would also fall under his portfolio sense. The starter of the thread did when he specified that we had 60 effective levels to build a character. PPS: And as my last comment: ok, you can take on the god. But can you also take on his 8 avatars, his 16(?) proxies, some hundreds of his heralds, some thousands of his celestial servants and finally some ten thousands of his mortal followers? And that all at once? I guess alone the ~500 slaying arrows from his Solar bodyguard each round can definitively ruin your day! ;) Yes, we can take them all on, at the same time, blinded, wielding a weapon we are not proficient with, and holding our turn until they all went first. None of them would be able to hit the dragon god except on a natural 20 (5% chance). Meanwhile, the dragon god will always hit, and always kill. And he can use Mass Divine Blast to hit 100 people at a time for over 3 million damage. He can also use Divine Shield to soak up the few nat 20's that hit him. And he has followers as well, lots of them. As for Arrows of Slaying, save them. The dragon god doesn't fail on a natural 1, is immune to death effects, and will make any DC with any saving throw at any time. Your Solars will switch sides after round 1 of combat. Also remember that the deities in D&DG and F&P are basically naked. At most they have a weapon and a mount. Give them equipment and epic spells available to that level and they would hand your a** to you even faster. They get Epic Spells if they have the feat Epic Spellcasting. Otherwise they are out of luck. The problem is following: under the RAW there is no way for player characters to attain a divine rank (note that dragons are under the RAW not available as player characters); mortal ascension is purely optional according to D&DG and in Realms it is Ao's territory of allowing new deities in "his" realm. So the players are stuck with mortal characters, and that's the moment "Mass Life and Death" enters the stage. No. There is a section in Draconomicon with the sole purpose of explaining how to play a Dragon as a player character. The fact that the younger dragons have a LA points to the fact that they can be played as PC's. Juvenile Black Dragon Paladin of Slaughter 4/Hexblade 3/Fighter 10/Dragon Ascendant 12/????? 11 The Dragon uses Festering Anger to get an arbitrarily large number of followers, so that his followers number in the millions (this requires Might Makes Right and Legendary Commander). The Greater Deity status will protect you from the abilities of most other deities, but is not enough to reliably take on the entire pantheon. Time to break stuff. Snag a wizard cohort. We will just say that he has 50 levels (Human Druid 10/Vermin Lord 10/Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 10/Cosmic Descryer 10). Sweet. We get the brokeness of the H.I.V.E and of the Cosmic Descryer all in one little happy helper. Ok, we are getting there. Our Dragon PC is still a Greater Deity, but needs a boost in power to challenge the entire FR pantheon, enter the cohort. The dragon makes the cohort a proxy, subtracting 1 from his own Divine Rank to give his Cohort Divine Rank 1. Then the dragon god changes the traits of his personal plane (every deity of rank 1 or higher has one) so that it has the major positive trait and so that 1 year spent in the plane is 1 round on the prime material plane. The cohort then spends 1 year in the plane, gaining 5 hit points each round and making his saving throw every time to avoid exploding. At the end of the year, the cohort uses his Cosmic Connection ability to add 5,256,000 to his Spellcraft check, the dragon deity makes this effect permanent. Woohoo! Bring on the epic spells! Ok, so the dragon god uses Alter Reality to duplicte Wish to create Rods of Excellent Magic, to ensure enough XP to create any epic spell. For gold, he could use Fabricate nonsense, Adamantine feathers, or simply use his millions of followers to fund the spells. With Fortify, the cohort can make a spell that increases any ability by 2,627,991 points. When he casts the spell on the dragon god (using the Hivemind of course to ensure maximum caster level) the dragon god makes the effect permanent. It gets cast 6 times, one for each ability score (note, this means you would gain around 1,313,990 hit points per HD). I guess after increasing your ability scores to that high there isn't really a need for other epic spells. Well... just a few: Spell Resistance: At this high of a DC, the Epic Spell would give you SR 656,991. You can also use the Ward seed to pretty much protect you from everything harmful in D&D :). With all of your ability scores over 2 million, you can pretty much do anything. You will always hit, always make your saving throw, always have plenty of hit points :). You can make any skill check, ability check, opposed check, etc... And it all happens in 1 round, after your cohort returns from your godly plane and casts the epic spell on you to boost an ability score. I am sure there is more to be broken, but it's 5 in the morning, I am going to bed.
Ra-Tiel 03-04-05, 05:41 AM	Whoa. What version of the Monster Manual are you using? Look in the 3.5 MM, look in the SRD. Dragons, or at least for the low age categories, have LA's listed, ergo, they may be played as characters. Ok, I didn't think that dragons now had a LA listed, so that's my fault. Sorry. But nontheless is the major loop hole that a epic template was applied without increasing the ECL. Do you really think a template that increases CR by 15 has no effect on ECL? With that template we're probably looking at a ECL 40 or 50 base creature without any classlevel. Just look at the other LA/CR ratios in the MM or SRD and you will notice that that's the real cheese here. And just for the sake of it: Yes, Paragon template has NO level adjustment listed, so it's out of the question for a player controlled character. Any by the way: Mass Life and Death will anyway slaughter all of your followers in 1 round, instantly dropping you back to DR0. (If we assume that DR is dependent on # of followers.) --- @Khan the Destroyer: Whow! But anyways, in FR you would *not* get the last ability of the PrC without have Ao say "Ok". Realms functions this way and it's a setting unique circumstance, no matter what the ability description says. And again, you have the Problem of Kelemvor knowing your approach 16 weeks in advance and killing all of your followers with one single "Mass Life and Death". The Dragon Ascendant PrC doesn't mention Ao, because the Draconomicon is a generic book, not Realms specific. And with not altering (or trying to do so) Ao's attitude you have sealed your own fate. Ao was powerful enough to reduce all but one deity instantly back to mere mortals, all at once! Do you really think your ECL 60 character would be any hindrance to "him"? He snips with his fingers and you are a divine rank -1 tiny dragon toad. ;) Ao is to the gods of FR, what a greater god is to a mortal. Also remember, your epic spell for the ability boosts could be removed by Mystra pretty easily. And with your cohort having a caster level of "only" 56 that shouldn't be much of a problem. Additionally, were assuming that the deities aren't prepared themselves. D&DG and F&P were written without referring much to the ELH. Give some nice epic spells and epic equipment to the deities and the chances would be even. And by the way: DR is not measurable in LA or ECL. Gaining additional DRs is entirely up to Ao (read: the DM). There is no way you can assume that your ECL60 (without the paragon template!) character also has a Divine Rank beyond 0. _Ra-Tiel.
Tempest Stormwind 03-04-05, 09:27 AM	Juvenile Black Dragon Paladin of Slaughter 4/Hexblade 3/Fighter 10/Dragon Ascendant 12/????? 11 The Dragon uses Festering Anger to get an arbitrarily large number of followers, so that his followers number in the millions (this requires Might Makes Right and Legendary Commander). The Greater Deity status will protect you from the abilities of most other deities, but is not enough to reliably take on the entire pantheon. Time to break stuff. Snag a wizard cohort. We will just say that he has 50 levels (Human Druid 10/Vermin Lord 10/Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 10/Cosmic Descryer 10). Sweet. We get the brokeness of the H.I.V.E and of the Cosmic Descryer all in one little happy helper. Ok, we are getting there. Our Dragon PC is still a Greater Deity, but needs a boost in power to challenge the entire FR pantheon, enter the cohort. The dragon makes the cohort a proxy, subtracting 1 from his own Divine Rank to give his Cohort Divine Rank 1. Then the dragon god changes the traits of his personal plane (every deity of rank 1 or higher has one) so that it has the major positive trait and so that 1 year spent in the plane is 1 round on the prime material plane. The cohort then spends 1 year in the plane, gaining 5 hit points each round and making his saving throw every time to avoid exploding. At the end of the year, the cohort uses his Cosmic Connection ability to add 5,256,000 to his Spellcraft check, the dragon deity makes this effect permanent. Woohoo! Bring on the epic spells! Ok, so the dragon god uses Alter Reality to duplicte Wish to create Rods of Excellent Magic, to ensure enough XP to create any epic spell. For gold, he could use Fabricate nonsense, Adamantine feathers, or simply use his millions of followers to fund the spells. With Fortify, the cohort can make a spell that increases any ability by 2,627,991 points. When he casts the spell on the dragon god (using the Hivemind of course to ensure maximum caster level) the dragon god makes the effect permanent. It gets cast 6 times, one for each ability score (note, this means you would gain around 1,313,990 hit points per HD). I guess after increasing your ability scores to that high there isn't really a need for other epic spells. Well... just a few: Spell Resistance: At this high of a DC, the Epic Spell would give you SR 656,991. You can also use the Ward seed to pretty much protect you from everything harmful in D&D :). With all of your ability scores over 2 million, you can pretty much do anything. You will always hit, always make your saving throw, always have plenty of hit points :). You can make any skill check, ability check, opposed check, etc... And it all happens in 1 round, after your cohort returns from your godly plane and casts the epic spell on you to boost an ability score. I am sure there is more to be broken, but it's 5 in the morning, I am going to bed. Sounds pretty good except for the (understandable at 5AM) typo. You gain 5 million temporary hit points, but only a one million bonus to spellcraft. Simple solution: Beam your cohort to the plane, and leave him there for five years of his time (thirty seconds). Wheee! But nontheless is the major loop hole that a epic template was applied without increasing the ECL. Do you really think a template that increases CR by 15 has no effect on ECL? With that template we're probably looking at a ECL 40 or 50 base creature without any classlevel. Just look at the other LA/CR ratios in the MM or SRD and you will notice that that's the real cheese here. And just for the sake of it: Yes, Paragon template has NO level adjustment listed, so it's out of the question for a player controlled character. ... But anyways, in FR you would *not* get the last ability of the PrC without have Ao say "Ok". Realms functions this way and it's a setting unique circumstance, no matter what the ability description says. And again, you have the Problem of Kelemvor knowing your approach 16 weeks in advance and killing all of your followers with one single "Mass Life and Death". ... Also remember, your epic spell for the ability boosts could be removed by Mystra pretty easily. And with your cohort having a caster level of "only" 56 that shouldn't be much of a problem. Additionally, were assuming that the deities aren't prepared themselves. D&DG and F&P were written without referring much to the ELH. Give some nice epic spells and epic equipment to the deities and the chances would be even. And by the way: DR is not measurable in LA or ECL. Gaining additional DRs is entirely up to Ao (read: the DM). There is no way you can assume that your ECL60 (without the paragon template!) character also has a Divine Rank beyond 0. _Ra-Tiel. 1) Where does the class say that your ECL doesn't change? For all we know it does. 2) Paragon ain't there no more. 3) What of the gods/godesses who rose to divinity before the Time of Troubles? Uthgar comes to mind here -- I don't recall any mention of Ao's interaction needed there. As for Mass Life & Death, why don't the gods who have this use it on, say, Bane's worshippers if they hate him so much (or other gods/godesses)? Only answer I can think of is that they're forbidden from directly destroying another god's belief base -- only other mortals can do this, so motivate a crusade. 4) Did you notice Cosmic Connection? A wise dragon god would accompany the cohort to the plane long enough to Permanancy the spellcraft bonus, and then repeat the cohort's exile. The cohort then casts the 1-round epic spell using Cosmic Connection for a virtually infinite caster level. (Mystra could, in theory, Deny Weave this. That one ability is cheesy enough that it's very much like the DM saying "HA! I WIN! UP YOURS!" and thus probably not valid during your prep time. However, this is exactly why you target Mystra FIRST once you're ready. The Epic boards would LOVE to be in on that, I gather, since Mystra (Midnight) doesn't seem too popular over there.) 5) Equipment, yes. Spells, not unless they have the Epic Spellcasting feat. 6) So, what is it now? Are you admitting he's Divine Rank 0 even without Ao's interference? If he can attain this, then what's stopping him from grabbing other divine ranks? Oh, and don't give me Ao -- Ao didn't do ANYTHING to the gods between the creation and the Time of Troubles, as near as I can tell, yet gods were created then.
Need_A_Life 03-04-05, 11:22 AM	At level 60 you should be able to (re-)start replacing gods, either use diplomacy (or better yet, Bluff) or a simple charm monster (wouldn't work on Mystra though, she'd probably get suspicious :P ) to make them **** off Ao again, they get expelled from their planes and you'd kill them for being such pathetic weaklings (avatars are not all that strong when you're an ECL 60 quasi-deity (of strength and fury)). What was it again... oh yeah, didn't Times of Trouble end with Cyric taking over the position of the gods of bad things (death, pain etc.), she (Midnight, right?) became a goddess of [something], and that were-panther guy became something too if my memory isn't failing me completely. So if they became gods for their deeds during that incident, wouldn't a guy who's worshippers make the entire population of the abyss pale in comparison become a supreme deity? and rename himself Banjo the Clown. EDIT: Added OotS joke
Ra-Tiel 03-04-05, 11:45 AM	[...] 1) Where does the class say that your ECL doesn't change? For all we know it does. Then look up the Paragon Template in the SRD. There's no line "Level Adjustment: ...". So you couldn't add this one to a player controlled character. --- 2) Paragon ain't there no more. Acknowledged! --- 3) What of the gods/godesses who rose to divinity before the Time of Troubles? Uthgar comes to mind here -- I don't recall any mention of Ao's interaction needed there. As for Mass Life & Death, why don't the gods who have this use it on, say, Bane's worshippers if they hate him so much (or other gods/godesses)? Only answer I can think of is that they're forbidden from directly destroying another god's belief base -- only other mortals can do this, so motivate a crusade. But Ao allowed them to ascend. They couldn't force it. Well, Mystra (Midnight) tried to cut off a greater deity's complete fellowship from the weave. If I remember correctly, she targeted Cyric's followers with her "Deny Weave", but Ao wasn't that amused about it and ordered/forced her to restore Cyric's followers' spellcasting abilities. But I don't think Ao would intervene if the deities simply tried to protect Faerűn from an *outside* invasion. --- 4) Did you notice Cosmic Connection? A wise dragon god would accompany the cohort to the plane long enough to Permanancy the spellcraft bonus, and then repeat the cohort's exile. The cohort then casts the 1-round epic spell using Cosmic Connection for a virtually infinite caster level. (Mystra could, in theory, Deny Weave this. That one ability is cheesy enough that it's very much like the DM saying "HA! I WIN! UP YOURS!" and thus probably not valid during your prep time. However, this is exactly why you target Mystra FIRST once you're ready. The Epic boards would LOVE to be in on that, I gather, since Mystra (Midnight) doesn't seem too popular over there.) If you really want to blast a setting apart for you, I won't hinder you... Yes, I know Cosmic Connection, but my problem with this all here is that there's no way according to the RAW to gain a divine rank. The Dragon Ascendant imho simply grants the same abilities as a quasi-deity, but in no way says that you gain divine rank 0. And if you only go for descriptive text, from the "Movement Mastery (Ex)" paragraph of the Dervish: A dervish is so certain of her movements that she is unaffected by adverse conditions. [...] Does that mean she has Freedom of Movement permanently active? Or is immune to tangelfoot bags? NO! Because that's just descriptive text and the mechanical effects follow in the next sentence. The same with dragon ascendant. The part with "quasi-deity" is just description; the real part is that the dragon ceases to age and becomes immortal. That's all. Pure and simple. If the designer really wanted to have him dr0, then he would simply have added the sentence "From this time on the Dragon Ascendant is considered to have Divine Rank 0" or something similar. Assuming that the dragon ascendant gains a divine rank is laying something into the designer's mount that he never ever said. It like assuming just because the descriptive text of dwarves in the PHb says something about "known for their skill at arms" that all dwarven fighters automatically start at level 10. --- 5) Equipment, yes. Spells, not unless they have the Epic Spellcasting feat. I must disagree here. The deities in D&DG and F&P were not written with the ELH in mind. If you allow players access to the ELH, you also must redesign the deities and give them epic feats, epic gear, and eventually epic prestige classes as well. --- 6) So, what is it now? Are you admitting he's Divine Rank 0 even without Ao's interference? If he can attain this, then what's stopping him from grabbing other divine ranks? Oh, and don't give me Ao -- Ao didn't do ANYTHING to the gods between the creation and the Time of Troubles, as near as I can tell, yet gods were created then. I do not admit that the dragon ascendant gains dr0. And I think in FR the deities are not gods because they have followers, but have followers because they are gods. As I've said above: If you want to ruin the setting for you, go ahead. If I'm wrong please correct me, but Ao needs only *allow* somebody to ascend, he needs not directly intervene with that. And if he says "no", what would you want to do? Run home to momma dragon and cry "Ao's unfair!"? Wasn't it Ao that resurrected Torm after his battle with Bane and allowed Tyr to make him a lesser deity? If Ao had rejected, Tyr would not have been able to do so, would he? --- And what would happen to the Weave if you destroyed Mystra? Even thought of this? A permanently magicless world would sure be nice to play in. Especially as wizard or cleric. --- _Ra-Tiel. PS: Where's the point of having gods around when every out-of-the-mill mortal exploiting some vaguely formulated prc ability can walk around and slaughter whole pantheons? Isn't it the point of deities that they are undeafeatable for mere mortals? Just my two cp.
GoofsterStud 03-04-05, 12:02 PM	An epic dreamocheater.... YUM!!! God...no problem... I'll miracle you dead... Go Mystra!
Zzasrix 03-04-05, 01:08 PM	Ok Dervish does say the are uneffected by adverse conditions but you forgot the most important part... the next line. The line where it explains what that means (they can take 10 even if they are distracted). The other big problem with this AO argument is... the GM is allowing them to take on the gods. There is no realm to ruin, no game to destroy. Its just an excersise to try and kill gods. One more thing thats been bugging me... Everyone is saying how gods will know in advance what you are trying to do AND will make an attempt to stop you. When the Netheresse wizard cast that spell to make him a god (proving it can be done btw) Mystra had to know right? I mean how long would it take you to write a spell like that, then memorize it, then cast it? Im guessing years. So why didnt she, or any other the other gods that could detect an action like that, do anything about it? I dont have an answer, but it does prove that you can take an action against a god...
Darken 03-04-05, 01:37 PM	One more thing thats been bugging me... Everyone is saying how gods will know in advance what you are trying to do AND will make an attempt to stop you. When the Netheresse wizard cast that spell to make him a god (proving it can be done btw) Mystra had to know right? I mean how long would it take you to write a spell like that, then memorize it, then cast it? Im guessing years. So why didnt she, or any other the other gods that could detect an action like that, do anything about it? I dont have an answer, but it does prove that you can take an action against a god...Because back then, Gods do not have those "profilio sense" powers in 2E. They can Divine somehow, but not the sense weeks in advance. You may consider that an improvement, I suppose, that AO hand out to deities since FoN was such a huge event. Also, the Netherese Arcanists, as described in stories, are actually extremely powerful, they can face against Gods and delay their assults. Two examples include the casting of Karsus' Avatar, and the use of that artifact Sceptre which I forgot the name of. Apparently these Wizards are able to "hold off deities' attacks" while the Sceptre's user spend the time to activate it and banish a god from the realm. Now, in 3E, however, they just know, weeks in advance, no check, no rolls, no Divine rank comparsion, they just know 100%. That's the first thing you have to somehow get around before even start to build a character. The next thing you consider is defense against SDA. THEN you can start to figure out a build.
Khan the Destroyer 03-04-05, 02:18 PM	But nontheless is the major loop hole that a epic template was applied without increasing the ECL. Do you really think a template that increases CR by 15 has no effect on ECL? With that template we're probably looking at a ECL 40 or 50 base creature without any classlevel. Just look at the other LA/CR ratios in the MM or SRD and you will notice that that's the real cheese here. Actually I did take the Level Adjustment of the Paragon Template into account. Go back and look at my initial build. The dragon is ECL 61 (I mis-counted :embarrass). Just shave off a level of Fighter :). And just for the sake of it: Yes, Paragon template has NO level adjustment listed, so it's out of the question for a player controlled character. We can extrapolate what the LA of the template is by comparing the ECL given of the Paragon Mind Flayer to the ECL of an average Mind Flayer. An average Mind FLayer is ECL 15. The Paragon Mind Flayer is ECL 26 (Epic Level Handbook, page 156). With no increase in HD, we can assume that the increase in ECL came from the Paragon template, which would then add a LA of 11. Also, I took Paragon out, freeing up 11 levels for whatever else anyone would like to put in. Any by the way: Mass Life and Death will anyway slaughter all of your followers in 1 round, instantly dropping you back to DR0. (If we assume that DR is dependent on # of followers.) Read Mass Life and Death. No two mortals affected can be more than 1 mile/rank apart. This will severely limit how many you can affect in 1 round. Further, this SDA can only be grabbed by Greater Deities, meaning not all of them will have it. Also, the deity must rest for 1 minute per HD/Levels of the creatures it affected. That means if he wants to kill 1 million 1st level worshipers, he has to rest for 1 million minutes. But anyways, in FR you would *not* get the last ability of the PrC without have Ao say "Ok". Realms functions this way and it's a setting unique circumstance, no matter what the ability description says. And again, you have the Problem of Kelemvor knowing your approach 16 weeks in advance and killing all of your followers with one single "Mass Life and Death". And who is to say that Ao would say no? Why are we assuming that the draon ascended to slay deities? Roleplay it :). The dragon reached divinity because he was extremly scared of dying perhaps. He longed for a way to remain alive without turning to the vile arts of necromancy. After years of searching, he stumbled across the path of the Divine Ascendant. Ao should have no problem allowing him to ascend if he has no intentions of harming anyone, he merely wants to preserve his life. But after attaining godhood, the dragon became more paranoid. Even if only the greater deities could harm him,he was still fragile. His life could be snuffed from him at any moment. So the dragon amassed worshipers, millions of them, to rival the power of the other gods. And he rose to be a greater deity. But even that wasn't enough. The dragon realized how easy it could be for the other deities to do the same, so he waged a war on them. See? Mystra, Ao, the other gods wouldn't see the attack coming until this guy was already a Greater Deity. The Dragon Ascendant PrC doesn't mention Ao, because the Draconomicon is a generic book, not Realms specific. Fair enough. But neither does it say in any book that simply because Ao can deny divinity in the realms he will. And with not altering (or trying to do so) Ao's attitude you have sealed your own fate. Ao was powerful enough to reduce all but one deity instantly back to mere mortals, all at once! Do you really think your ECL 60 character would be any hindrance to "him"? He snips with his fingers and you are a divine rank -1 tiny dragon toad. ;) Ao is to the gods of FR, what a greater god is to a mortal. We really have no idea how the mechanics of "Ao" work. For all I know, he could merely have really high saving throw DC's for all of the effects that he pulls off on the other deities, in which case the dragon god may be unaffected. There is as much reason to assume that Ao cannot defeat the dragon god as there is to assume that he can. Neither one of us knows how his uber-god-like abilities work. Also remember, your epic spell for the ability boosts could be removed by Mystra pretty easily. And with your cohort having a caster level of "only" 56 that shouldn't be much of a problem. How can they be removed pretty easily? The spells are permanent, meaning that if she denies us access to the weave, it will not matter because the spells will already have been cast. Then she has to dispel the spells, and you are mistaken. The cohort does not have a measily caster level of 56 (and he wouldn't even have that with the build I proposed). The Hivemind would have a caster level in the 4000's, and I specifically mentioned that he would use the hivemind when casting the epic spells for this very reason. Further, the Cosmic Descryer can have a caster level in the millions. I don't think Mystra will be dispelling any of those epic spells, and they are unaffected by Antimagic. So, the dragon god and his pals are pretty much set, and Mystra is the first to die. Additionally, were assuming that the deities aren't prepared themselves. D&DG and F&P were written without referring much to the ELH. Give some nice epic spells and epic equipment to the deities and the chances would be even. Equipment sure, but not epic spells. Only the deities with Epic Spellcasting will have those. And the Deities and Demigods book references the Epic Level Handbook in a couple of places. Finally, a Hivemind with a caster level in the 4000's can dispel any epic spell cast by any god, let alone a Cosmic Descryer with a caster level in the millions. Yes, I know Cosmic Connection, but my problem with this all here is that there's no way according to the RAW to gain a divine rank. The Dragon Ascendant imho simply grants the same abilities as a quasi-deity, but in no way says that you gain divine rank 0. Ra-tiel, this is your interpretation. The Rules As Written say that the Dragon Ascendant becomes a Quasi-deity. The Rules As Written say that a Quasi-deity is a being with Divine Rank 0. Anything else is strictly your interpretation of what is written in the books, nothing more. Sounds pretty good except for the (understandable at 5AM) typo. You gain 5 million temporary hit points, but only a one million bonus to spellcraft. Simple solution: Beam your cohort to the plane, and leave him there for five years of his time (thirty seconds). Wheee! Whups! Good call :), and a perfect solution. It would be like an episode of Dragonball Z, where everyone stands around and stalls the BBEG until the Goku arrives with a super power-up. Wow, I just referenced Dragonball Z :nonono:.
El_Machinae 03-04-05, 03:04 PM	There's no real point continuing the argument. We all concede that we cannot take on the FR pantheon without divine ranks (I still think that with good class/feat selection we can do it as intermediate deities, without 'cheesing' it.). Ra-tiel is correct, Ao (played by the DM) can prevent the dragon from ascending. If the DM decided that the Dragon could not ascend, it will not. If not allowed to ascend, the PC's will die in four rounds. It's entirely the DM's decision. Ra-tiel, the reason why the Draconomicon does not reference Divine Rank 0 is because WotC tends to write their books thus that they only need access to the core rule books to work. Is divine rank in the core rules? Is reference to deityhood in the core rules? No. Thus, the DM will have to define what a quasi-deity is. Personally, I think that the Deities Handbook is clear enough. Clearly not for you.
Ra-Tiel 03-04-05, 03:18 PM	Ok Dervish does say the are uneffected by adverse conditions but you forgot the most important part... the next line. The line where it explains what that means (they can take 10 even if they are distracted).[...] No I didn't leave that out! Read my post again, please. Especially the part: Does that mean she has Freedom of Movement permanently active? Or is immune to tangelfoot bags? NO! Because that's just descriptive text and the mechanical effects follow in the next sentence. The same with dragon ascendant. The part with "quasi-deity" is just description; the real part is that the dragon ceases to age and becomes immortal. That's all. Pure and simple. If the designer really wanted to have him dr0, then he would simply have added the sentence "From this time on the Dragon Ascendant is considered to have Divine Rank 0" or something similar. Assuming that the dragon ascendant gains a divine rank is laying something into the designer's mount that he never ever said. It like assuming just because the descriptive text of dwarves in the PHb says something about "known for their skill at arms" that all dwarven fighters automatically start at level 10. --- Just because you can calculate the LA of a template off from an example creature doesn't mean that it is valid for player characters. No "Level Adjustment: +x", or "Level Adjustment: -" means no-no for pcs. Just the RAW. If you want to add a template that player characters cannot usually take, SavSpec is the way to go. Or take a look in some Dragon mags (don't recall the exact issues); they had some templates there as "classes". Kelemvor doesn't need to rest. No matter how many mortals he kills, no matter what level they are. He is the God of Death, after all. ;) Perhaps because there are no mechanics for Ao? In my opinion, D&DG and F&P with all those statistics, SDAs and feats are an insult to common sense. Do I *really* need stats for the god of war? Just to show the players and roll the dice how he smashes them to pieces in 1 round? And in my opinion Ao will see the attack coming. Ao is to greater deities as incomprehensible as greater deities are to mortals. And who says Ao is not a level 1,7E78 Epic Divine Word, Epic Divine Wish, Epic Divine Hulking Hurler, Epic Divine Dimension Hivemind Lord multiclass character with all stats at 9.356E115? With ~3.56E1975hp and DCs of 6.3E116+spell level? (No, I did *not* really calculate that numbers!) How will your dragon ascendant perform then? As to the spells: just two words. Mage's. Disjunction. All you have is a simple will save vs the effect. If you fail the numerical result then *pofff* and spells are gone. No SR, no caster level bonus. Also, the gods simply could start to throw spheres of annihilation at you. Eventually someone *will* roll the 20 and then you're dust anyway, because a SoA simply destroyes you. No save, no immunity (remember: a SoA is not a transmutation effect!), no protection at all for the guy on the receiving end. Finally, do you really think that the gods themselves wouldn't have done that trick with proxy and the PEP if it was really *that* easy? And by the way, Khan, I'm not interpreting more into the rules than you. I simply compared what a level12 dragon ascendant has in abilities to what a quasi-deity should have, and I found a discrepancy there. If your argumentation was right, they both should have the exact same abilities, shouldn't they? But they don't. I know it's just 1 measily point SR, but this single point is the decisive one! If the result of two calculations isn't equal (in the same numerical body; |R, for example) then the two calculations aren't equal. The dragon ascendant and a dr0 entity differ in abilities, therefore they are *not* the same. qed! _Ra-Tiel.
El_Machinae 03-04-05, 03:58 PM	Actually, Ao's power compared the gods is a bit defined in the novels (but not the rules). During Cyric's heyday, Ao acknowledged that Cyric was approaching him in power.
Khan the Destroyer 03-04-05, 04:43 PM	Just because you can calculate the LA of a template off from an example creature doesn't mean that it is valid for player characters. No "Level Adjustment: +x", or "Level Adjustment: -" means no-no for pcs. Just the RAW. I wasn't arguing that player's can use the template, just that it does in fact have a LA. Further, there is nothing in the books saying that templates without a LA entry can't be used by pc's. Kelemvor doesn't need to rest. No matter how many mortals he kills, no matter what level they are. He is the God of Death, after all. ;) He is a god, which means he follows the rules set in the books for gods. Perhaps because there are no mechanics for Ao? In my opinion, D&DG and F&P with all those statistics, SDAs and feats are an insult to common sense. Do I *really* need stats for the god of war? Just to show the players and roll the dice how he smashes them to pieces in 1 round? And in my opinion Ao will see the attack coming. Ao is to greater deities as incomprehensible as greater deities are to mortals. That is your opinion. Here on the character optimization board, we aren't so much concerned with if the gods should be statted, but that they are and how we can defeat them. And who says Ao is not a level 1,7E78 Epic Divine Word, Epic Divine Wish, Epic Divine Hulking Hurler, Epic Divine Dimension Hivemind Lord multiclass character with all stats at 9.356E115? With ~3.56E1975hp and DCs of 6.3E116+spell level? (No, I did *not* really calculate that numbers!) How will your dragon ascendant perform then? That was precisely my point. He could be exactly what you just said, in which case the dragon god has no chance. Or, he could simply be something just strong enough to manipulate the FR deities, in which case the dragon god would stomp him. In either case, we don't know, so people should stop using him as an attack on this build. As to the spells: just two words. Mage's. Disjunction. All you have is a simple will save vs the effect. If you fail the numerical result then *pofff* and spells are gone. No SR, no caster level bonus. A will save is more than enough to ensure that the dragon god will never have to worry about MD ever. He will always make the save. Also, the gods simply could start to throw spheres of annihilation at you. Eventually someone *will* roll the 20 and then you're dust anyway, because a SoA simply destroyes you. No save, no immunity (remember: a SoA is not a transmutation effect!), no protection at all for the guy on the receiving end. Sure. Except that the dragon god can deal over 3 million damage to 100 deities within 20 miles. I don't think they will have a chance to rely on a natural 20. Finally, do you really think that the gods themselves wouldn't have done that trick with proxy and the PEP if it was really *that* easy? Again, I am not concerned with this. You can speculate all you would like. Here, we see that gods do not have any proxies with levels in Cosmic Descryer hanging out in the Positive Energy Plane, despite the fact that it is indeed *that* easy. And by the way, Khan, I'm not interpreting more into the rules than you. I simply compared what a level12 dragon ascendant has in abilities to what a quasi-deity should have, and I found a discrepancy there. There is nothing for me to interpret. It says clearly that the dragon is a quasi-deity. Then there is another book that say a quasi-deity is a divine rank 0 being. That is RAW. You want to say that because the Dragon Ascendant class does not perfectly mimic the quasi-deity status that it does not grant divine rank 0. That is fine, but that is your personal opinion/house rule/interpretation. Nothing in the book says that the class must perfectly mimic the quasi-deity to achive divinity. If your argumentation was right, they both should have the exact same abilities, shouldn't they? But they don't. I know it's just 1 measily point SR, but this single point is the decisive one! If the result of two calculations isn't equal (in the same numerical body; |R, for example) then the two calculations aren't equal. The dragon ascendant and a dr0 entity differ in abilities, therefore they are *not* the same. qed! By that reasoning, a 10th level Dragon Disciple is not a half-dragon because he gains bonus spells, something the half-dragon template does not give. We shouldn't argue about this anyway. Evangelion1010 came here for a build to help him take on the FR pantheon. We have given him one that is more than qualified for the position of deity slayer. It is up to him to bring that character (the dragon god) to his session. It is then up to the DM to allow it or ban it. Neither you or I are his DM, so neither one of us should really claim whether or not it could work in his campaign.
Creeg 03-04-05, 05:38 PM	I have no doubt a group of adventures could manage to kill a god or 4 but eventually the gods will take them out. The ONLY way I've seent hat could work is the one where someone said to get them cast onto Toril again, then they are JUST there avatars and lack many of their higher abilities.
Dunelord 03-04-05, 08:46 PM	I think the big problem is going to be Ao since to be even divine rank 0 you have to have his approval in the FR. Also you don't know he exsists, and he can do anything.
Rod Howard 03-04-05, 09:29 PM	They can't slay a single thing. Just cast a persistent Deathward every 23 hours, everyday. Who needs to be a god to kill a god? I killed Lolth with a level 20 Iaijutsu Master.
SigmaJargon 03-04-05, 09:57 PM	I have no doubt a group of adventures could manage to kill a god or 4 but eventually the gods will take them out. The ONLY way I've seent hat could work is the one where someone said to get them cast onto Toril again, then they are JUST there avatars and lack many of their higher abilities.Or, as we've expressed here, the alternative to that is to become a god ones own self, a god more powerful but the very most powerful deities. If you can get yourself to divine rank 20, then only other divine rank 20 deities can even hope to touch you. With any luck, though, you should be on top of that and take them out first. Oh, and Rod Howard, I doubt that Lolth had Divine Splendor, neh? An instant death field out to 160ft is nothing to cough at, especially since it is neither a death spell, a magical death effect, energy drain, nor a negative energy effect. Deathward would block Life and Death, though. :)
sma 03-04-05, 10:02 PM	They can't slay a single thing. Just cast a persistent Deathward every 23 hours, everyday. Who needs to be a god to kill a god? I killed Lolth with a level 20 Iaijutsu Master. Lolth as in she just stood there and took the hits ? :P
Rod Howard 03-04-05, 10:05 PM	Lolth as in she just stood there and took the hits ? :P She doesn't always start first. I got my free round (level 10 ability), won initiative (couldn't be otherwise) and wasted her.
Shebnar 03-04-05, 10:21 PM	Do you want to destroy deities? Easy. ;) :P :D 1) Go to another Universe (in the D&D cosmology, IIRC, is suggested the existence of several other planes of existence beside Toril and the Planes). There you should be undetected by the deities of your original universe. Otherwise, find yourself a place like the Spire. Cast a mighty epic spell from your hidden realm on the Outside Universe, something that can break through the defenses of every living (and undead) creature. The spell must be a kind of Universal Suggestion, aimed at every creature of your original Universe. Make 'em forget about the existence of their gods. Without the prayers of their followers, all the deities will be weakened and will be lost into Oblivion. Obviously, when fiendish and heavenly forces are going to force the atheists to their former cults, you will appear again in your homeverse, with a floating beard, golden eyes and a white night-gown, speak them about Love and Paradise and similar ********. Persuade them to join your Cult, and save all the people of the universe from their ignorant atheism. In the meanwhile, you and your servants have to locate and destroy every single messenger from the Upper and Lower Planes who's trying to reach the minds and the ears of the mortals: your business has no need of competition! You will also have to destroy immediately temples and holy writings from the other ex-gods, and totally wipe out their memory from the minds of your believers. When the gods will be sufficiently weak to oppose resistence no more, ascend to their golden houses in the sky and there open your divine slaughterhouse. Eradicate every trace of 'Good' and 'Evil', substituting them with your 'Caprice'. When Lord Ao will come to ask for explainations, just tell him that monotheism has proved to be a more efficient way to control the masses: you can have the several people on Toril worship a different aspect of your person, so that the concepts of Evil and Good are not forever lost and their eternal strife can go on. While the people on Toril will start waging war each other for nothing, Lord Ao will be pleased and won't break your balls anymore. Sometimes remember to provide your followers with some ****** miracle. 2) Be an exemplar of an outsider race. You've heard about this so-called 'gods' and want to confront them. Grow up in power, go for a munchkinny min/maxing, then cast an epic spell you invented: the 'time-machine spell'. Go back on Toril during the Time of Troubles, when deities had lost their Divine Abilities: track them and slaughter them, one by one. You shall destroy the timeline of Toril (who cares? you belong to another Universe), but remember that in destroying Mystra you will also make the Weave collapse, so in the future it could be possible not to use magic (and the 'time-machine spell'). So it's better to have the 'time machine effect' as an epic psionic power.
Rod Howard 03-04-05, 10:50 PM	Just take Innate Spell, coupled with Extended Time Stop. Who cares if they act first if they don't act at all? You can freeze time at will, and you will keep doing so until you reach the deity you have to kill. Then, just place some hundreds of delayed blast fireballs (with some metamagic kicked in) and go away. You'll have just too much slots for spells.
Mourn_1 03-05-05, 12:33 AM	Ok, to answer a few questions, AO is the ultimate power in the realms, but is, as stated, mostly apathetic unless the gods are not doing their duties (ie. maintaining their portfolios). AO= ALPHA and OMEGA, yet at the end of Waterdeep, he clearly reports to an even higher power that affairs are back in order. He can strip or bestow divinity at will, aka he is a plot device and not a "god". His stats would be so superior that all characters would be clerics of AO, thus the ruling that he does not grant abilities or spells ( although a few cults have sprung up in his name after the ToT). At the end all be all, AO is the DM. As for someone stating that Cyric was nearing AO in strength, re-read Prince of lies and the Trial of Cyric. He BELIEVED he was that powerful after he read his own book. As for gaining divinity, he was granted godhood by AO due to the fact that there were 3 vacancies for evil gods more than handing in the Tablets of Fate, or having anything to do with their deaths (besides Midnight killed Myrkul with a frickin disentegrate....can anyone say "the author is your friend"). :rofl: What would happen if Mystra was killed...again...who the hell knows since it has had different effects each time. First time all magic stops for a few moments and then she reincarnates herself. Second time, she funnels alot of her power and knowledge into a mortal, but only causes a medium sized nuclear blast when axed by Helm...albeit the magic in the realms was haywire already due to the ToT. Bottom line is the gods CAN be killed, by authors and design teams predominantly. Otherwise it takes a DM who wants to allow you to reach Divine Bliss. But i still love the DA build. :) Edit: Shebnar, remember though, that during the ToT psionics got jacked even worse than magic. Most psionic users still had their powers but could not unlock them. The mental paths used to manifest the powers suddenly changed. Well the Illithids figured it out pretty quick, but then again how else can you explain that big 1st to 2nd edition fudge up err transition. :P Keep em rollin Mourn Old school Realms Geek
SigmaJargon 03-05-05, 01:17 AM	As for someone stating that Cyric was nearing AO in strength, re-read Prince of lies and the Trial of Cyric. He BELIEVED he was that powerful after he read his own book. You have to admit, however, that if the Cyrinishad had been read to the other gods during the trial, it basically would've toppled the whole pantheon. But, of course, they can't let that happen - destroying the world and all that. Of course, if the Dragon God does ascend to power, thats basically what would happen anyways.
Mourn_1 03-05-05, 01:36 AM	Yeah i can see that scene in cynosure as the crynishad is passed around: Oghma:Hmmm, well, ya know....i think he's right. Torm: It's my duty to inform you all,Yep we're screwed. Mystra: Sure looks that way. Tyr: Damn, lost that bet with Mask, guess there goes the other hand. Mask: Pay up stumpy. Sune: i think he's dreamy. Selune: back off **** he's mine Waukeen: I'll buy him from you. Tymora: Flip ya for im. Sharess: Bite me Lady Luck, I'm bustin out the Vinyl Catsuit. Ilmater: maybe i can get him to beat me Bane: rolls Bhaal: over Myrkul: in his grave Tempus: Think i could still beat him in arm wrestling? Red Knight: No Garagos: No Shaundakul: No Savras: With no doubt, i foresee..... No Malar: I can still whoop his #@! Collective gasps Malar: sorry, can't read. the comedic potential is limitless, but yeah the world would implode. Mourn More fun than playin Leapfrog with Unicorns
Khan the Destroyer 03-05-05, 04:16 AM	Another way to gain divine rank 0 is to play an Abomination. The ECL for each one is listed in the beginning of the mosnster's chapter in the Epic Level Handbook (although I must admit that the ECL's given are a bit wonky, since they are equal to the HD of the mosnter, but there is nothing about it in the errata). An infernal is ECL 40, and has some sweet abilities. Abominations are Divine Rank 0 beings, so just playing an Infernal would give you quasi-deityhood. Then use the same methods as the dragon god to obtain higher DR and super ability scores in the millions. Paladin 20/Psion 18/Metamind 10/Dragon Asendant 12 Use True Mind Switch on a true dragon to qualify for the Dragon Ascendant prestige class :). Then do the same old stuff as before to become powerful. The neat thing I like about having the psion levels is that if you beat up on a deity until they go unconscious, you can target them with Fusion. Any creature that is knocked out is automatically "willing" for being the target of a power. Fuse with the deity and make the effect permanent with Alter Reality. You will usurp the entire pantheon and all of their power. You will gain all of those HP, Spells, feats, class abilities, racial abilities, and the best saving throws, attack bonuses, etc. etc. I like the flavor. The Metamind levels aren't needed at all. But I think it is cool that you can make Font of Power permanent with Alter Reality. Unlimited power points welling from within you :). As long as you have infinite power points, you can keep the battle going against a deity. The gods resources will waste away before yours do every time. This is assuming of course that you maintain a humble level of power. If you go for the "my stats are in the millions" approach, this is all obvious and doesn't need to be said. If you wanted to be more subtle in your approach though against the FR pantheon than the dragon god, I would suggest the psion route. You could gain enough strength to defeat them (and even have it be a challenge and fun) and then fuse with them afterwards to gain more power for the upcoming fights. Use Timeless Body to avoid damage each round (Quicken it or use Schism). Time Regression is also useful if something goes bad. I don't know, just some thoughts, it is late again :).
Ra-Tiel 03-05-05, 07:06 AM	Another way to gain divine rank 0 is to play an Abomination. The ECL for each one is listed in the beginning of the mosnster's chapter in the Epic Level Handbook (although I must admit that the ECL's given are a bit wonky, since they are equal to the HD of the mosnter, but there is nothing about it in the errata). An infernal is ECL 40, and has some sweet abilities. Abominations are Divine Rank 0 beings, so just playing an Infernal would give you quasi-deityhood. Then use the same methods as the dragon god to obtain higher DR and super ability scores in the millions. Paladin 20/Psion 18/Metamind 10/Dragon Asendant 12 Use True Mind Switch on a true dragon to qualify for the Dragon Ascendant prestige class :). Then do the same old stuff as before to become powerful. The neat thing I like about having the psion levels is that if you beat up on a deity until they go unconscious, you can target them with Fusion. Any creature that is knocked out is automatically "willing" for being the target of a power. Fuse with the deity and make the effect permanent with Alter Reality. You will usurp the entire pantheon and all of their power. You will gain all of those HP, Spells, feats, class abilities, racial abilities, and the best saving throws, attack bonuses, etc. etc. I like the flavor. The Metamind levels aren't needed at all. But I think it is cool that you can make Font of Power permanent with Alter Reality. Unlimited power points welling from within you :). As long as you have infinite power points, you can keep the battle going against a deity. The gods resources will waste away before yours do every time. This is assuming of course that you maintain a humble level of power. If you go for the "my stats are in the millions" approach, this is all obvious and doesn't need to be said. If you wanted to be more subtle in your approach though against the FR pantheon than the dragon god, I would suggest the psion route. You could gain enough strength to defeat them (and even have it be a challenge and fun) and then fuse with them afterwards to gain more power for the upcoming fights. Use Timeless Body to avoid damage each round (Quicken it or use Schism). Time Regression is also useful if something goes bad. I don't know, just some thoughts, it is late again :). Basically alright, but we're still assuming ECL 60, and not ECL 40+20+18+10+12=100, don't we? And you can indeed bet your soul that the infernal's LA is WAY higher than his hd. If it would go that way, why the hell have drow an ECL of hd+2 when an infernal has ECL hd+0??? :confused: Can I play a 1hd infernal from level 1 on with no LA (if we use SavS)??? :looloo: :noway: :nonono: [imho] If we stick with ECL 100, than every greater deity has another 40 levels to spend. You don't really want Helm as a Word, do you? Or Tempus as Hulking Hurler? He could smack your some million hp with one solid blow to below 0 with his admantine(?, I'm not really deep into the HH build) sphere. Or the trick with shrink object and 16*4000 flasks alchemists fire (or thunder stones, or acid, or holy water) thrown by some insane master thrower build doing 64000d4 damage in 1 round. Hmmm Mask would really appreciate that build, I guess. _Ra-Tiel.
Rod Howard 03-05-05, 08:48 AM	Why does everyone keep praising an illegal, RAW breaker build like the Word? I though we optimizers made characters who can actually be, following the rules.
Shebnar 03-05-05, 11:20 AM	Uhm, two serious questions: 1) Couldn't the Tauric template add the Paragon template to the animal without any ECL increase? It worked only for Str, Dex and Con, however (since the mental stats are replaced by the templated humanoid's ones). 2) I don't want to start a flame war (which usually goes together with the 'Word' build), but I can't recognize how the Word build is illegal (and, sincerely, I even fail to understand how it really works...) :embarrass What is wrong with it?
Interested2 03-05-05, 11:39 AM	The word build is based on a flawed understanding of how caster levels in Ur-Priest, MT, and several other classes interact. It's a case of bad math making a build look powerful. The Stafficer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=387497) functions using similiar tactics in combat, but is legal. Can absolutly kill a diety. Accually, that makes me wonder - what happens to a Fang of Lloth if he kills Lloth? Lloth is accually one of the more kill-able deities, not having Supreme Init and all (for that matter, so is Mystra). If the Stafficer goes first, Lloth dies, no save, against a Holy Word or Dictum.
Dark Kyosuke 03-05-05, 12:10 PM	Accually, that makes me wonder - what happens to a Fang of Lloth if he kills Lloth? He becomes a "Fang of Me".
Interested2 03-05-05, 12:22 PM	Oi. Now I've started scheming to wipe out the Demonweb pits and establish a godly realm in the Far Realms.... :rolleyes:
Tempest Stormwind 03-05-05, 12:41 PM	The word build is based on a flawed understanding of how caster levels in Ur-Priest, MT, and several other classes interact. It's a case of bad math making a build look powerful. The Stafficer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=387497) functions using similiar tactics in combat, but is legal. Can absolutly kill a diety. Accually, that makes me wonder - what happens to a Fang of Lloth if he kills Lloth? Lloth is accually one of the more kill-able deities, not having Supreme Init and all (for that matter, so is Mystra). If the Stafficer goes first, Lloth dies, no save, against a Holy Word or Dictum. Staffificer = pretty cool. However, in that build, can't you apply HP progression to artificer? Or am I completely out of it when I think that stuff? Here's the nifty thing -- fangs of Lolth (I've only ever seen it as Lloth in old books and novels) don't need to serve Lolth, nor do they draw their power from her. Song and Silence describes a few that managed to steal the fang scarabs and fight against Lolth. I'd say that they're completely independant of her except in name.
Need_A_Life 03-05-05, 12:46 PM	I don't know the "Word", where can I find it? *imagines "+1 arcane and divine spell-casting, +1 psionic manifestation" and cracks an evil smile* I think that a campaign about killing gods require a prestige class (divine vanquisher? Who's-afraid-of-Deny-Weave? If-they-can't-hit-you-you're-still-screwed?), don't you think? Anyway, if you use a house rule to allow you to take on the portfolios of the deities you kill, then there's no problem. Start from the bottom, and make sure to warn the greater gods first explaining how they have wronged your people (for this purpose have +20 Bluff ranks and an awesome Cha modifier) and ask them not to interferre with you. Have your epic rogue/bard (w/ Glibness) fool them to believe you and go after Lolth, then Mystra, then deny weave to all except YOUR spellcaster(s) (it's a party, right?), as you move along you should gain some divine rank advancement (take the average of your score and their score (treat yours as -1 while mortal)). Tada! You're a greater deity and people are too afraid not to follow you. Or use the [Dragon Ascendant, H.I.V.E., Alter Reality plan, festering anger, leadership, undead leadership] approach to simply wipe them all out right a way.
Interested2 03-05-05, 12:48 PM	I think you probably could, but all you'd gain is infusions. If you're planning on killing a god and thus gaining god-hood, you've got at LEAST 20 more levels to work with, and probably 6 or 7 from killing the god alone. Shooting for wizard seems smarter to me, but then, thats just me :) For epic after that I'd go with another level of wizard, and then Incantrix 10/Archmage 5/Mindbender 1, and go into Cosmic Descryer after that. The ECL 60 build would be Magic-Blooded Human Paragon 1/Marshal 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 2-3/Artificer 14/Fang of Lloth 1/Incantrix 10/Archmage 5/Mindbender 1/Netherese Arcanist 5/Cosmic Descryer 15. Interesting as to the fang of Lloth...hmm. As a side note, is it just me, or is Search not working again?
Khan the Destroyer 03-05-05, 02:12 PM	Basically alright, but we're still assuming ECL 60, and not ECL 40+20+18+10+12=100, don't we? And you can indeed bet your soul that the infernal's LA is WAY higher than his hd. If it would go that way, why the hell have drow an ECL of hd+2 when an infernal has ECL hd+0??? :confused: Can I play a 1hd infernal from level 1 on with no LA (if we use SavS)??? :looloo: :noway: :nonono: [imho] I admitted it was wonky, but that it the RAW. As far as the Epic Level Handbook is concerned on page 156, the Infernal is ECL 40. That gives us 20 more levels to work with. The only problems with using builds like the Stafficer, or killing deities from the ground up and relying on their portfolios is that even if you may have the power to kill a deity, you may not have the power to live long enough to do so. The deities will most likely have hundreds of thousands of servants/minions ready to fight for it. And while the party is trying to circumvate that obstacle, the deity is free to act. It may be possible to destroy a weaker deity, but then you may still be too low in Divine Rank to survive against the next, and if the pantheon got wind of what you were intending (and they most likely will), they may come to you first before you have the power to survive their attacks. A couple of things to note about deity attacks. -Divine Blast is divine damage, meaning it cannot be resisted... except by the Athar prestige class. A 3rd level Athar Defiant gains immunity to divine damage, and that includes Divine Blast and Mass Divine Blast. -Hand of Death and Mass Life and Death only affect mortals, meaning that if the PC is an outsider or immortal or something similar they cannot be targeted by those SDA's. Just a couple of ways to circumvate some of the nastier god powers without actually being a deity. EDIT: Evangelion1010, you said all WoTC books are a go, so I was wondering if the Gestalt rules were also a go. That would be pretty sweet :).
SuperThread 03-05-05, 02:39 PM	With an Epic Spell just using the Fortify seed and [~+1000000] to Spellcraft, you can get... Not enough gold (or time) in the multiverse. The Infernal has smaller LA than the Drow because, instead of forty highly optimizable class levels, you get forty static outsider HD.
SearchingShaman 03-05-05, 02:54 PM	A couple points here: An Epic Spell that makes you immune (like Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity) to Holy Word would be a good investment. Would someone please look at the Epic spell creation rules and try to craft a spell to amplify a voice across all of Toril? Specifically, I'm thinking about the uber Hivemind and/or 58th level wizard cohort crafting a spell to amplify the voice of the 1000+ Cha of the Dragon Ascendant across all of Toril, planting a suggestion that all beings should immediately bow and worship the dragon ascendant. If the FR pantheon lost 99% of its worshippers, then they might lose a huge chunk of their divine rank. Of course that is subject to the adjudication of the DM, but might be an interesting tactic to try.
Tempest Stormwind 03-05-05, 03:12 PM	Not enough gold (or time) in the multiverse. Immortal (through proxy if using cohort) + Any plane with Flowing Time (create one of your own if you need to) = As much time as you need, dependant on the flow rate. Forever in a day, if you'll pardon the pun. As for gold, you can create it, or anything the gold would buy, if you're the right sort of deity. Other than that, design the plane to be filled with gold or jewels and have an army of automotons mining it constantly. The arcane/divine version of Genesis allows you to do both of these stunts at once. Need_A_Life: The Word was a build that was impressive in the amount of work it went through. It ended up at level 19 after three lifetimes, level loss, emaciated spawning, and at least one savage species ritual, along with use of the Thought Bottle. It had a caster level (miscalculated at) about 300, and then just used staffs of Holy Word / Blasphemy / Dictum / Word of Chaos, along with anything else he felt like. It would have been a work of art had it actually been legal. It was part of the November CO contest.
Shebnar 03-05-05, 09:54 PM	A couple points here: An Epic Spell that makes you immune (like Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity) to Holy Word would be a good investment. To make yourself immune to Holy Word/Dictum etc. etc. you just need a Ritual of Alignment. The [Good] tag will make you immune to Holy Word, the [Law] tag immune to Dictum and so on.
Rod Howard 03-06-05, 11:16 AM	To make yourself immune to Holy Word/Dictum etc. etc. you just need a Ritual of Alignment. The [Good] tag will make you immune to Holy Word, the [Law] tag immune to Dictum and so on. Or cast Deathward, Freedom of Movement and some other spells.
horndgod 03-06-05, 09:48 PM	The Word was useless, because, whether it was legal or not, any time it used its "words" it would kill itself.
Neeek 03-06-05, 10:11 PM	The Word was useless, because, whether it was legal or not, any time it used its "words" it would kill itself. Not true. The Word was Good, Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful all at the same time, through Rituals of Alignment.
SigmaJargon 03-06-05, 10:14 PM	The Word was useless, because, whether it was legal or not, any time it used its "words" it would kill itself.Actually, I believe that Frank and K used alignment subtypes a la SS rituals to circumvent that particular problem. And, just a peculiar little oddity, but I must have an old version of the Epic Handbook. I have Infernals listed as ECL 30. Then again, I also have LeShay listed at 32, Mu Spores at 23, etc. Negative LA? Heck yeah.
Shebnar 03-06-05, 10:28 PM	How can a Cosmic Descryer get a caster level so high? for every +1 to caster level he suffers 5 points of damage... :confused: Where is the trick?
horndgod 03-06-05, 11:08 PM	Except that the "word" spells affect you in the worst way possible. A succubus that has for some reason become Good is still affected negatively by a Holy Word because she still has the Evil subtype. She's also negatively affected by Blasphemy, because she's actually good.
Neeek 03-06-05, 11:34 PM	Except that the "word" spells affect you in the worst way possible. A succubus that has for some reason become Good is still affected negatively by a Holy Word because she still has the Evil subtype. She's also negatively affected by Blasphemy, because she's actually good. Wrong. It doesn't effect her at all. The "Word" spells only work on "nongood(or whatever)". Consequently, a Good Succubus is immune to Blasphemy, Holy Word, and Word of Chaos. RTFM.
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-05, 11:52 PM	How can a Cosmic Descryer get a caster level so high? for every +1 to caster level he suffers 5 points of damage... :confused: Where is the trick? Plane Shift to the Positive Energy Plane to gain temporary hit points ad infinum.
horndgod 03-07-05, 12:12 AM	Wrong. It doesn't effect her at all. The "Word" spells only work on "nongood(or whatever)". Consequently, a Good Succubus is immune to Blasphemy, Holy Word, and Word of Chaos. RTFM. :rolleyes: The succubus in question is both Good and Evil, therefore she qualifies as non-good, as she has an alignment that is not-good. Being a specific alignment doesn't make you immune to that alignment's appropriate "word", it makes you vulnerable to the opposing "word". RTFRAW.
Neeek 03-07-05, 12:23 AM	:rolleyes: The succubus in question is both Good and Evil, therefore she qualifies as non-good, as she has an alignment that is not-good. Being a specific alignment doesn't make you immune to that alignment's appropriate "word", it makes you vulnerable to the opposing "word". RTFRAW. No, to be nongood you'd have to actually NOT BE GOOD. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's pretty basic logic. You either "good" or "nongood" not both. Holy Smite would work, because it specifies "evil" instead of "nongood".
Shebnar 03-07-05, 03:33 AM	Plane Shift to the Positive Energy Plane to gain temporary hit points ad infinum. "The Cosmic Descryer can remain connected for a number of minutes equal to her class level" (ELH, pag. 27). i.e. 10 minutes at maximum. Positive Energy Plane provides you Fast Healing 5. So you have 100 rounds to buff yourself with Cosmic Connection: you gain for free +100 caster levels, in addiction to sacrificed hp and incrementations of the connection time through Time Stop...But I hardly can see how a Cosmic Descryer can hit a caster level in the millions. And at the end of the 10 minutes you lose all of the goodies. Nah... :(
Tempest Stormwind 03-07-05, 03:48 AM	"The Cosmic Descryer can remain connected for a number of minutes equal to her class level" (ELH, pag. 27). i.e. 10 minutes at maximum. Positive Energy Plane provides you Fast Healing 5. So you have 100 rounds to buff yourself with Cosmic Connection: you gain for free +100 caster levels, in addiction to sacrificed hp and incrementations of the connection time through Time Stop...But I hardly can see how a Cosmic Descryer can hit a caster level in the millions. And at the end of the 10 minutes you lose all of the goodies. Nah... :( Full description: Cosmic Connection (Su): At 7th level, the cosmic descryer may join with the massive energy of the multiverse once per day, plus one additional time per day every five levels thereafter. The cosmic descryer can remain connected for a number of minutes equal to his or her class level. While connected, the character is immune to critical hits, is a native on any plane he or she visits, and can use dimension door at will as a 20th-level caster. The cosmic descryer can draw off excess energy from the multiverse itself to increase his or her effective caster level or enhance any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check. Drawing off excess energy from the multiverse is dangerous, and it deals the cosmic descryer 5 points of damage for each +1 bonus applied to a single roll or +1 caster level on a single spell. See anything about 1/round in there? You can draw off as much as you wish. The only limits are your hit points and the 10 minutes. And as for HP: Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive- dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it. You simply Alter Reality to grant the cohort an insane bonus on Fort saves, and when he's your proxy 1s on saving throws aren't autofails. Therefore, you have a ton of extra hit points, especially if he's been camping there for years. (Some of this can be done with a Wish spell as well.) Then the piece de resistance: You Alter Reality Cosmic Connection to be permanant. Voila, arbitrarily high caster level, arbitrarily high Spellcraft check, whenever you feel like it. (This is where the deities exceed the mortals. Mortals can pull this off in 10-minute surges. Deities can let it simmer for years.)
Khan the Destroyer 03-07-05, 04:22 AM	"The Cosmic Descryer can remain connected for a number of minutes equal to her class level" (ELH, pag. 27). i.e. 10 minutes at maximum. Positive Energy Plane provides you Fast Healing 5. So you have 100 rounds to buff yourself with Cosmic Connection: you gain for free +100 caster levels, in addiction to sacrificed hp and incrementations of the connection time through Time Stop...But I hardly can see how a Cosmic Descryer can hit a caster level in the millions. And at the end of the 10 minutes you lose all of the goodies. Nah... :( Shebnar, you do not need to be connected to the Plane in order to gain the temporary hit points. In other words, you sit there for an indefinite amount of time (whch is nothing due to the alterable time trait in a godly realm :)) and gain as many hit points as you would like. Then, when you have decided that you have enough hit points to burn, for an enormous bonus to caster level or skill check, use your Cosmic Connection and burn all of that HP, then make the effect permanent with Alter Reality.
Shebnar 03-07-05, 06:03 AM	In other words, you sit there for an indefinite amount of time (whch is nothing due to the alterable time trait in a godly realm :)) and gain as many hit points as you would like. In the DMG nothing is written about the flowing time feature of the Positive Energy Plane...Am I missing something? And how many natural '1' will you roll sitting there indefinitely, when you are called to make a Fortitude ST (CD 20) every round you get temporary hp (or die if you fail)? :confused: :eek: And what exactly is Alter Reality? Where can I find a description? Don't know, but I like the name... :drool: Edited: Uh, no, I found it in Deities and Demigods...But how can a Cosmic Descryer take it? He is not a god!
Rod Howard 03-07-05, 08:19 AM	In the DMG nothing is written about the flowing time feature of the Positive Energy Plane...Am I missing something? And how many natural '1' will you roll sitting there indefinitely, when you are called to make a Fortitude ST (CD 20) every round you get temporary hp (or die if you fail)? :confused: :eek: And what exactly is Alter Reality? Where can I find a description? Don't know, but I like the name... :drool: Edited: Uh, no, I found it in Deities and Demigods...But how can a Cosmic Descryer take it? He is not a god! So? Become one.
Shebnar 03-07-05, 09:09 AM	So? Become one. OK, I missed this simple point. :D
Tempest Stormwind 03-07-05, 09:25 AM	In the DMG nothing is written about the flowing time feature of the Positive Energy Plane...Am I missing something? And how many natural '1' will you roll sitting there indefinitely, when you are called to make a Fortitude ST (CD 20) every round you get temporary hp (or die if you fail)? :confused: :eek: And what exactly is Alter Reality? Where can I find a description? Don't know, but I like the name... :drool: Edited: Uh, no, I found it in Deities and Demigods...But how can a Cosmic Descryer take it? He is not a god! The trick here is that the Descryer is your cohort, where you are the dragon ascendant. You set the Descryer as your proxy, which gives him Divine Rank 1, and all the immunities (including natural 1s on saves) that come with it. You can furthermore Alter Reality to give him a bonus on his saves (if he needs it) to encertain his survival. And as for the plane, you have to create one -- thankfully, your cohort in this exercise is a 50-some-odd-level caster, and Genesis exists. The arcane/divine version of Genesis lets you set a plane to Major Positive and Flowing Time, if you so choose. The two of you can probably sequester the plane as well, hiding it from virtually everything. If it's in your divine domain, you can also alter the astral links so that you and ONLY you can control who enters and leaves. This is still subject to divine hierarchy, so don't tell anyone about it, and hope it remains mostly secret.
Khan the Destroyer 03-07-05, 01:30 PM	Ok, here is a quick run down. Start out as a juvenile dragon with 12 levels in Dragon Ascendant (this makes you a quasi-deity, giving you Divine Rank 0). Use Leadership to gain millions of worshipers, elevating your status to Greater Deity (this is an assumption on my part, but implied by the books). Gain a Cohort with at least 7 levels in the epic prestige class Cosmic Descryer. Make your cohort a proxy, giving him Divine Rank 1 and giving him immunity to natural rolls of 1 (he can roll a nat 1 and have it not be a critical failure). As a deity, you have access to a godly realm, and as a greater deity, you can change the time traits and energy traits as you wish. Set it to major positive energy trait (giving you 5 HP per round) and alter the time so that 1,000,000,000,000 years in your godly realm is 1 round in the prime material. Have your cohort sit in your godly realm for that long, gaining all of that HP over that many years. With a character level beyond 50, he cannot fail the saving throw to avoid exploding thanks to his base saves, even on a 1 (which he doesn't fail because of his divine rank of 1). When you and your cohort decide he has enough HP, he uses his cosmic connection ability and takes as much damage as he has temporary hit points from the godly realm. This adds a ginormous/humonstrous bonus to his spellcraft check. Repeat for caster level. You, the dragon ascendant (a greater deity with Alter Reality) make the effect permanent through Alter Reality. Now the cohort has a permanent bonus to his spellcraft check/caster level (There are 5,256,000,000,000,000,000 rounds in 1 trillion years, so the cohort would gain 26,280,000,000,000,000,000 temporary hit points over the course of 1 trillion years, which is 1 round on the material plane :). Then the cohort uses his Cosmic Connection ability to gain a bonus to his spellcraft check equal to 1 point for every 5 points of damage he takes. So, take 26,280,000,000,000,000,000 damage, giving you a bonus of 5,256,000,000,000,000,000.) Since this is made permanent through Alter Reality, the cohort can now make Epic Spells with crazy high DC's (DC's in the quintillions... or pentillions... or whatever). He would use those to make you more powerful than any other being statted out in D&D could ever dream of being. As an example, he could research this Epic Spell: Uber in a way the germans cannot comprehend Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 5,256,000,000,000,000,000 Components: V,S Casting Time: 1 Minute Range: Touch Target: Creature Touched Duration: 20 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) Using only the fortify seed, you add a 2,627,999,999,999,999,991 enchancement bonus to 1 ability score. Cast it 6 times, once for each ability score, and the Dragon Ascendant makes it permanent each time through Alter Reality. Now the Dragon Ascendant has ability scores in the seven digits (which means his AC, Attack Bonus, Skill Checks, Saving Throws, Ability Checks, Damage Rolls, Spell DC's, etc... are in the seven digits as well.) And since this is done at caster level 5,256,000,000,000,000,000, no one will be able to dispel it. As a greater deity, the dragon god is immune to antimagic fields, and with a will save in the seven digits, he will always make his save against MD. Hope that helps.
Shebnar 03-07-05, 03:34 PM	Uber in a way the germans cannot comprehend :rofl: Edit: thank you for the explanation, Khan! :)
Khan the Destroyer 03-09-05, 01:17 AM	I suggested this at ECL 20 for the "Kill Tiamat in 1 on 1" thread, but it will work a lot better at ECL 60 (that can probably be said about everything else :)). Illithid 15/Illithid Savant 45 This gets you 21 acquired feats, and 21 acquired skills. You also get a total of 14 class features, and 11 special attacks/qualities. I haven't come up with a complete list, but here is what I have so far for class features and special attacks. Special Attacks/Qualities 1. Abomination Traits- Get this from any Abomination brain. Among other things, it gets you Divine Rank 0. Divine Rank 0, among other things, makes you immune to Hand of Death and Mass Life and Death. Also, your magical and supernatural attacks are not subjct to Antimagic fields anymore :). 2. Regeneration- Ideally the one possessed by the Terrasque. It is the strongest version that I know of. Anything short of a deity (such as a deity's minions) will be hardpressed to kill you. 3. Arcane Spellcasting- Grab it from a Sharn, that way it is equal to your HD and cast as spell-like abilities. Since this isn't a class feature, you do not gain 1 spell per level, but the ability to cast as a sorcerer of a level equal to your HD. 4. Divine Spellcasting- The highest caster level I have seen is from an Elder Titan. Grab it. With Spell Versatility 9 from Geomancer, you can cast your divine spells as spell-like abilities because of the Sharn ability. Now you have all cleric spells, plus a bunch of arcane spells as spell-like abilities. 5. Spell-like Metamagic- Gained from a Pheonix brain. It lets you use whatever metamagic feats you have on your spell-like abilities as a full-round action. 6. Spell Resistance- From a Pseudonatural creature. Instead of an Illithid's SR of 70 at this level, it will be 265. Just to be on the safe side. 7. Alacrity- Choker. Always useful, especially when you are trying to kill a god and need to get it accomplished in as little time as possible. 8. Aura of Doom- Vermiurge. Ideally, this is your god-killer. Class Features 1. Hivemind- This is gained from a 10th level Verminlord, and will allow the Illithid to gain the uber Sorcerer levels of the H.I.V.E. build. 2. Swarmform- This is gained from the Verminkeeper prestige class and allows the Illithid to take the form of a swarm of vermin, letting him actually be a complete part of the Hivemind, gaining the Intelligence and Charisma boost. 3. Uncanny Location- This is gained from the epic prestige class Agent Retriever. With it, the Illithid can know the exact location of an item (such as an artifact, and better yet, a deity-killing artifact). 4. Cosmic Connection- This is gained from the epic prestige class Cosmic Descryer. When Alter Reality becomes available this will be really cheesy. 5. Disease Form- Gained from the Cancer Mage, it will allow you to travel unnoticed, letting you sneak up on gods that would normally know you were coming from miles away. 6. Powers- Grab the ability to manifest powers from as high a level a psion as possible (ideally level 60). Powers/Spells are always great to have. 7. Spell Versatility 9- Geomancer. This will let you cast arcane spells as divine spells and vice versa. 8. Void Release- Void Disciple. This lets you use one ability score in place of another for a limited amount of time. Great for setting high DC's for abilities like Aura of Doom. It is easier to increase strength than intelligence, so use strength for the DC :). 9. Divine Damage Immunity- Defiant from the Planar Handbook. It makes you immune to divine damage, which is what Divine Blast and Mass Divine Blast are. 10. Power Surge- Kensai. Before the 5 rounds are up for the initial Power Surge, you can do this about 15 times (assuming you max concentration). This will boost your strength to about 110 and it is not as cheesy as Festering Anger (which could be used in place of this, freeing up another class feature). 11. Moment of Clarity- Void Disciple. Let's you grant the ability to use a feat or skill. Not of much use now, but when you gain Alter Reality, this supernatural ability can be made permanent, meaning you can have every feat in the game and ranks in every skill (to a max of your modifier in the relevant ability score for that skill, use Void Release liberally :devil: ). That is it for now. The only things really nessecary are Aura of Doom, Power Surge, Moment of Clarity, and Disease Form. Use Disease Form to get close to a deity unnoticed. Then start using those move actions (With Alacrity and the Hustle power that is 4 in 1 round!) to Power Surge for a couple of rounds. With a Strength score in the 100's (it could get higher if needed, depending on the deity), use your Void Release to replace your intelligence score with your strength score. Then activate your Aura of Doom. The deity takes 1000 points of damage. That would slay Boccob, Corellon Larethian, Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, Garl Glittergold, Lolth, Nerull, Olidammara, Tiamat, Vecna, and Wee-Jas. A lot of the features and attacks gained aren't needed, but make the Illithid pretty powerful even when not trying to slay deities. A couple of them (Cosmic Connection and Moment of Clarity) are pretty broken if this guy gains a Divine Rank beyond 0. Those two abilities with Alter Reality make for one uber Illithid deity. For Feats and Skills: I guess skills do not matter much. Obviously we would want to max Spellcraft, Concetration, and whatever other ones are deemed important. Lore should take care of the knowledge skills, and Disease Form should cover Hide and Move Silently. For feats, Epic Spellcasting is good, as well as some metamgic feats, and whatever else. I don't know what feats would be particularly useful against a deity. If anyone has any suggestions or if I made a mistake feel free to let me know :). I like this method better than the Dragon Ascendant, but I like Illithids a lot. This way is also a bit more subtle, and doesn't rely on over the top Leadership scores and spellcraft checks. What do you guys think? Is this deity-killing material?
Tempest Stormwind 03-09-05, 02:26 AM	I suggested this at ECL 20 for the "Kill Tiamat in 1 on 1" thread, but it will work a lot better at ECL 60 (that can probably be said about everything else :)). Illithid 15/Illithid Savant 45 This gets you 21 acquired feats, and 21 acquired skills. You also get a total of 14 class features, and 11 special attacks/qualities. I haven't come up with a complete list, but here is what I have so far for class features and special attacks. ... If anyone has any suggestions or if I made a mistake feel free to let me know :). I like this method better than the Dragon Ascendant, but I like Illithids a lot. This way is also a bit more subtle, and doesn't rely on over the top Leadership scores and spellcraft checks. What do you guys think? Is this deity-killing material? Amazing, simply amazing. The only problem is this is terribly reliant on the DM as all those beings are going to be hard to track down, even at epic levels -- the Blue Mage Quandary, if you will. So, one way involves guessing that hordes of worshippers might be enough to join the divine ranks (combined with the well-documented ba-rokenness of Cosmic Connection), while the other involves scouring and assimilating the best of the best of the best (using the equally ba-roken illithid savant). Fun stuff. Good times. (If only it were as easy as Banjo. Getting divinity by having two worshippers and Odin liking puppets makes it look like we've missed something simple here.)
Squirrelloid 03-09-05, 04:08 AM	No, to be nongood you'd have to actually NOT BE GOOD. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's pretty basic logic. You either "good" or "nongood" not both. Holy Smite would work, because it specifies "evil" instead of "nongood". Not actually true. So, good-evil spectrum has 3 values: good, neutral, evil. By assumption, character x is both good and evil. Nongood == having an alignment that is not good. Any evil character is nongood. Ok, now, lets check to see if she is nongood. Assume her alignment is not nongood. Now, lets check. We have the evil descriptor. Evil is, by definition, not good. Therefore, we have an alignment other than good. =><= Therfore, her alignment is nongood. Her alignment is also good. If we check, we see she does have the good descriptor. If you are all of [lawful] [good] [evil] [chaotic], any test of alignment returns positively for 'are they alignment x' tests, and positive for 'are they an alignment other than x' tests. Nongood is not the same as not good. Our posited [L] [G] [E] [C] returns false for 'not G', 'not E', and any other not test you want to make except not neutral (unless we assume the underlying alignment is actually neutral...). But nonx just asks if there exists an alignment which is something other than x. Edit: Nongood is short-hand for 'do they have an alignment that is not good', not 'do they not have the good alignment'. Not good is a perfectly reasonable term for the second, and i believe WotC has used it.
Neeek 03-09-05, 12:06 PM	Edit: Nongood is short-hand for 'do they have an alignment that is not good', not 'do they not have the good alignment'. Not good is a perfectly reasonable term for the second, and i believe WotC has used it. Except they haven't and don't because "nongood" means "not good". It's pretty obvious. If they were going to specific "neutral or evil" then that's what they would have said. If "having any alignment other that good" was the criteria for nongood, then everything would autofail the test.
Squirrelloid 03-09-05, 10:09 PM	Except they haven't and don't because "nongood" means "not good". It's pretty obvious. If they were going to specific "neutral or evil" then that's what they would have said. If "having any alignment other that good" was the criteria for nongood, then everything would autofail the test. Is evil a nongood alignment? yes. Are they evil? yes. Therefore they are nongood. Note i'm only talking about the G-E spectrum. Clearly this is distinct from the L-C spectrum, and questions about one dont involve the other. Think about what asking 'if their alignment is nongood' means. Its a positive check, not a negative check. You check to see if there exists an alignment element of their alignment on the good-evil spectrum which isn't good. A negative test would require asking 'Do they not have the good alignment' (they have an alignment that is not good) or similar language. Eg, you need a negative in their somewhere. Non is not a negative. Non just specifies other. For instance, a half-elf is nonhuman, but not not-human (they are half human after all).
Khan the Destroyer 03-10-05, 01:30 AM	Amazing, simply amazing. The only problem is this is terribly reliant on the DM as all those beings are going to be hard to track down, even at epic levels -- the Blue Mage Quandary, if you will. Hmmm, maybe not as difficult as it seems. Knowledge checks, and uber Lore checks will at least allow you to know about these creatures. Then the Agent Retriever's Uncanny Location will let you know of their location and track them down :). It's a matter of time really before you hunt these bad boys down, slay them, and eat their brains. So I guess its more contingent on finding an Agent Retriever. But since there is a whole guild full of them... So, one way involves guessing that hordes of worshippers might be enough to join the divine ranks (combined with the well-documented ba-rokenness of Cosmic Connection), while the other involves scouring and assimilating the best of the best of the best (using the equally ba-roken illithid savant). Yes. In my opinion though, the Illithid Savant build is better because it isn't based on the assumption that worshipers give you Divine Rank. Plus, the Illithid Savant can do everything the Dragon Ascendant can, and then more. (If only it were as easy as Banjo. Getting divinity by having two worshippers and Odin liking puppets makes it look like we've missed something simple here.) Huh? How does this work? EDIT: Neeek and Squirrelloid, could you guys please finish your discussion elsewhere. It isn't really relevant to the topic of this thread.
Neeek 03-10-05, 01:49 AM	Huh? How does this work? Banjo is a puppet from a web comic seen here: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript Specifically referencing this comic: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=137 EDIT: Neeek and Squirrelloid, could you guys please finish your discussion elsewhere. It isn't really relevant to the topic of this thread. I have nothing more to say on the subject. If he doesn't know what "non" means, I don't feel the need to discuss it further.
Squirrelloid 03-10-05, 03:21 AM	I have nothing more to say on the subject. If he doesn't know what "non" means, I don't feel the need to discuss it further. And no need to discuss it further. I concede actually. Neeek's right. (I'm amused they changed from 'not evil' to 'nonevil' in teh 3.0 to 3.5 transition... i knew i recalled seeing 'not alignment x' used before.)
hockeyman 05-15-05, 03:25 PM	First off if, i am so impressed by this thread and what it can do i simply have to try my hand, in addition your list for the Illithid Savant ablities are truly well thought out. But if you want to take it a step...forward lets try this. Half-Illithid...i dont know Bugbear in referance to Otto. Being a Halfie gets around ALOT of the lvl adjustments, ok thats first, now the only PROMLEM is that you can only use mind blast 1/day, unless you....eat the brain of ANOTHER ilithis savant, and take his... mind blast. :). Rinse and Repeat, Kill ALL the illithd savants, have kids Rinse and Repeat. Technically you only need to be 5th lvl in the class in order to aquire a higher lvl illithid savant's lvl 10 ablities and you go on from there. You can use whatever builds u want to qualify for the Illithid Savant. Taking hundreds if not thousands of ablities from everything, Dont forget the Ranged Extract from the Brain collector in the ELH. This makes hunting O-so easy, since even if they pass the save they are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds, can anyone say...Extract?!?!?! Since you gain extract from being a Halfie u are good to go, also ranged extract works the same way adn "Extracting a brain" so u can do this from fair away and half the monsters wont even know u exist before they die. IF the brain collecter is to high a challenge to kill at so low a lvl remeber the stats presented are very rare and a more "managable" creature exisits with only like 12HD with rougly translates into a CR 18 or so. So if you wanna get really nasty kill a Sloar or something with True res as a Spell-Like ability go and Convince a Legendary Dreadnought to let you kill him take his DR 3/- res him. Rinse and Repeat. And following this poorley written out idea u can technically gain every feat in the book every skill (autohypnosis anyone?) and every ablity etc etc. If you want to do it "in game" remeber players are supposed to fight 4-6 encounters that consitsts of any amount of legal cereatures to gain a lvl. agian find to your hears desire. Dont forget that if you can Raise at will even if its only once per day u dont even need to track down alot of the monsters since are you really need is one creature with stackable ablities, like a Dreadnought. think about it DR 3,000,000,000,000,000/- very nice dont you think, or perhaps imunity to everyhting in the game, etc etc, i also belive that this has been done before but i can only find "kinda like" illithid savants and none of them featuring Ranged Exteract, so if i am Jacking from someone else my apologies. BTW- i am Actually Wizard Random, just logged on as a freind.
Khan the Destroyer 05-15-05, 05:29 PM	Half-Illithid will save about 4 levels, since you still need about 7 class levels to qualify for Illithid Savant (which a regular mind flayer doesn't). But those 4 levels will give a couple of more feats and skills, and I think another class feature and special. However, the Illithid Savant cannot "rinse-and-repeat" as many times as it wishes. Each Acquire ability it gains is a one-use deal. The Illithid Savant gets to acquire one single ability with it, not an unlimited amount. So the Illithid Savant has to be careful about which abilities it selecets. The Ranged Extract is a good one :). The DR 3/- isn't.
lokkesmadr 05-15-05, 05:42 PM	Khan, notice that the illithid savant has three major class abilities? Illithids have brains, too. He's suggesting an illithid savant use its acquire class feature class feature to acquire the acquire class feature feature of an illithid savant with more than one 'slot'. Then acquire the acquire class feature feature of *another* illithid savant in one of those slots, ad nauseum. I doubt it's legal per RAW though
Khan the Destroyer 05-15-05, 08:20 PM	Ahhhh, I see :). Thanks for pointing that out.
Shebnar 05-15-05, 08:32 PM	Khan, notice that the illithid savant has three major class abilities? Illithids have brains, too. He's suggesting an illithid savant use its acquire class feature class feature to acquire the acquire class feature feature of an illithid savant with more than one 'slot'. Then acquire the acquire class feature feature of *another* illithid savant in one of those slots, ad nauseum. I doubt it's legal per RAW though If not illegal, it is DM-dependent. And any DM will laugh in your face when you try to do that trick.
CappyTheMule 05-15-05, 09:32 PM	...until you extract his brain and gain DM Salient abilities. Like Alter Stat: and Create Random NPC. Illithid Savant is definitely the way to go.
fractal 05-16-05, 03:35 AM	Just a note, but for those who are concerned that Hand of Death/Life and Death, etc, are a threat to our prospective god-killer, remember what these effects actually do. They duplicate Destruction, which is a death effect. A simple level 4 spell, Death Ward, will block all of these Salient Divine Abilities (for 1 min/level). Many of the other abilities require the Deity to hit the character - surely a level 60 character can have an unhittable AC, even for a god (and Epic Dodge in case a 20 is rolled).
Gothic Rose 05-16-05, 05:40 AM	Gods dont tend to actually ROLL to hit. They tend to simply HIT. Or at least always get a 20.
Shebnar 05-16-05, 06:32 AM	...until you extract his brain and gain DM Salient abilities. Like Alter Stat: and Create Random NPC. Illithid Savant is definitely the way to go. :rofl: Totally ROFL I would add to the list: Cheat Players and Reroll Dice When They Don't See You (Hey, you got your DM screen for that!!!) .
Wizard Random 05-16-05, 08:45 PM	I noticed you guys comparing what i said earlier about the savant. Yes for example, a lvl 5 savant has aquire class feature 1 correct? Well if you eat the brain of a lvl 10 savant then you gain the ablity of a 10th lvl savant. It says you gain the ablity to use the feature as the lvl of the creature you killed.(not exact phrase since i dont have the book in front of me) So if i kill a 20th lvl wiz i get the spellcasting as a 20th lvl wiz except the 1 spell fo eacth lvl restriction. Well if a 10th lvl savant can "aqure" 3 features and u kill him and eat brains then yes u gain 3 "slots" for your one. go on forever. :) And the dr 3/- it STACKS with itself, or just get the epic feat Damage Reduction or kill something that has the feat. as everytime you "aquire it" itll stack with itself. and i think to qualify for the savant class you need like a BAB of +5 or something stupid, if your a Halfie its only a LVL adJUST+5 instead of the ECL 15 of the regular mindflayer. you could probaly he a Half-Illithid say Elf or something and be a lvl 5 fighter and still are able to take the Savant class, but once agian i dont have the book here right now so i am spouting from memory.
aelryinth 05-16-05, 08:48 PM	Eat a Greater Doppleganger, gain its ability to steal the forms/minds of others. Accumulate the personas of 6 Epic Level characters of various sorts...ignore clerics, but a psion, wilder, sorceror, mage, etc are all possibilities. Simply change form and get yourself whole new batches of spells and feats and skills with each persona. You don't even have to justify a spellbook if you make them all spontaneous casters. ==Aelryinth
Wizard Random 05-16-05, 08:49 PM	And Shebnar it is NOT DM dependant, by the RAW u can do this, now once your Dm figures out what your doing.... thats another story, ya know the Cow From SPace might fall on you, or your guy trips and falls into the tarrasque's mouth etc etc. Just think of the Possiblities, a Savant who eats the Brains of other savants nice eh,
Wizard Random 05-16-05, 08:52 PM	Dude aelryinth your thinkign to small, but yes the Greater Dopplganger is on my hit list, .
Wizard Random 05-16-05, 09:09 PM	I like you Guys so here is a didy of a character., So tell me this, i made this Guy a whileback for a broken character contesnt ( i won) but i have always had people tell me its not workable even though i got source material and Wizards support e-mail that says otherwise. To start off Psion 23 (or 25) (Egoist) . Key Powers Known {Fusion, Hustle} Key Feats Quicken Power Key Epic Feats (these are the important ones) Multi Spellx1 ,Epic Manifesting Only Epic Spell NEEDED ~~Time Duplicate Breakdown: The Psion by 23rd or even 25th to be safe has 2 epic spells perday. U need to have a spellcraft (psicraft check of 61), Now this is EASY there are so many ways to get this by 23rd lvl i dont evenw ant to get into it, (and mainly because i dont have the Char sheet on me to tell me how i got it in the first place), What u do is cast Time stop OK now u have your double, What do you do? Say Hi, whats it like int he future ? No U Fuse with him, now here is the kicker u have 1 epic spell per day left, he has 1 left, when u fuse u got 2 :) What'll happen is you continue to do this by casting the already quickend TD, this is possible because u now have MultiSpellx2 when u fuse agian u have Multispellx4...see where this is going. :) u continue to do this till you have whatever PP or HP or Feats u want, i stopped around a millionbajillion. Now what do you do , its still "your turn" so why not make the most of it, using Hustle u can now move wherever you want and with Infinite move actions you will always have a Psi-focus for your quickened feat, I went off and destroyed the Multiverse in 1 ROUND!!!, think about it, nothing and no one can do anyhting because A: its not THEIR TURN and B: u have INFINITE PP to do whatever u want, go and tear down the planar boundrys and kill gods etc etc. Now here is the Kicker.... What i have never figured out...... What happeneds the Next round (shrugs) Does the Fusion continue to support you or does the TD take effect, litterly ripping you apart. and god i dont even like to think about what would happen in round 3. :) Also another little side Note, Since u always keep the best or max of whatever you fuse with, u just have your TD cast wish, Psionic alteration, Fusion whatever, and you will always keep your XP lvl the same :), also using the Savage Species rules for adding templates onto your guy with Wish spells or spells like them (miricales etc) u can effectivly have every template in the game , i mean go have fun, time is your to command ....
lokkesmadr 05-16-05, 11:59 PM	Flat out doesn't work, sorry. You don't stack the instances of multispell so no extra quickened spells so no loop. Equally, half-illithids cannot be illithid savants and, even if they could, you cannot, by the RAW, stack class abilities in the way you are suggesting. More importantly than either of these points, please use something resembling proper spelling, punctuation and grammar, it's so much easier to read what you're typing.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 12:14 AM	Yo do you like NOT know what u are talking about!?!?! OF course you stack Mutlispell Listen (clears throat) Multispell {Epic} You can cast an addinitonal quickened spell in a round. Pre Reqs:Quicken Spell, Ablity to cast 9th lvl in the class. Benifet: You may cast one additinoal quickened spell a rounf. SPECIAL: YOU CAN GAIN THIS FEAT MULTIPLE TIME ITS EFFECT STACKS. As you can see this is straight from the book, Also WHY CANT A HALF-ILLITHID be a Savant if i remeber correctly the only important pre req is the ability to EXTRACT which the Half-Ilithid GETS!!! And if you wanna get into it if you READ the book the Half-Illithid is STILL a MIND FLAYER its just a screwed up one, so its technically not even a HALF thats why its can do everything a Mind Flayer can do read it pg.90-91 in the Feind Folio. And yes By the RAW u can gain the higher lvl ablities of the savants jeez dude agian READ the book and look at EXactly what it says. U gain the ablity of the Class AS THE LVL OF THE PERSON WHO U JACKED THE ABLITY FROM. So what have we learned from today kids. If you jack a 10th lvl Savant's ablites u HAVE THEM no buts. btw u can of course continue to do that with the feats skills and everyhting etc etc. jeez man read more.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 12:27 AM	In addition, when you fuse this is what happens. You and another, Willing corporeal, living creature of the same or smaller size fuse into one being. As the manifester, you control the actions of the fused being. However, you can give control to the other creature. Once you give up control, you cannot regain it unless the other ebing gives it up as well. The fused being has you current HP. The fused being knows ALL the powers you know, has the sum of your and the other creatuere's power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature knows. Likewaise, all FEATS,racial ablities,and class features are POOLED,(if both creatures has the same ablity I.E. Sneak Attack, the fused being gains it only once). For eatch of the six ablity sxcores, the fused being's score is the higher of yours and the other creatures, and the fused being also has the higher Hit Die and manifestor lvl--- this effectivly means the fused being uses the bettwersaving throws,BAB,and skill modifeiers of either members, and it manifestsd all the powers at its highest lvl. You decide what equipment is abosrbed into the fused being and what if any remains for use. The fused items are restored after the fusion ends. When the power ends, the fused being seperates. The other creature appears in a area adjacent to where the fused ebing was, If the seperations occurs in a cramped space and other creature is ejected through the astral plane into the nearest open space and taking 1d6 dmg for every 10 feet moved in this way. Damage taken between the fused being is divided evenly between the 2 creatures when the power ends. You do not leave the fusion with more HP than when you entered the fusuon unless the fused being was healed for a liek amount of dmg, In a like manner a fused beings PP is split between the 2, and you can leave the fuse with more PP than when you entered it. ETC ETC ETC This is of course word for word from the books, slightly abreviated. Dont even get me started on my fusion Pyrimid ideas, i mean i SCARE myself when i think about it, i also get a headache from all the numbers involved.
Tempest Stormwind 05-17-05, 12:46 AM	You fuse with yourself from the future. Then your original self ceases to exist, being called back in time, and the fusion ends. Furthermore, the psionic version of Quicken requires you to EXPEND YOUR PSIONIC FOCUS -- so you have to account for a refocus action in there. And don't give me this "Oh, I have infinite move actions from Hustle!" -- Hustle's an immediate action, which is once-per-round. It also eats up your Quickened slot (which you have more than one of due to Multispell). Finally, the "Stacking" meant that when you Fuse, you don't combine remaining Multispell attempts, or anything else. Furthermore, you don't get a second set of actions -- which is critical if you're trying to use epic spells again and again and again. It's like you read all the upsides but none of the downsides and started writing.
lostone 05-17-05, 08:04 AM	Yes for example, a lvl 5 savant has aquire class feature 1 correct? Well if you eat the brain of a lvl 10 savant then you gain the ablity of a 10th lvl savant.While this does appear to work from the RAW, any DM that actually allows it deserves to have his campaign totally ruined by all the munchkinism going on. The Illithid Savant is powerful enough without this. In fact if a player did try it, I would rule that "like abilities do not stack" just like if you get evasion from a base class and get it again from a second class, they overlap, you don't suddenly gain improved evasion. The class ability "acquire class ability" by 10th level gives 3 acquired class abilities, so it would not stack with the ones your illithid savant would gain from his own class later on, it would overlap meaning at most he can only acquire 3 total class abilities. He's just getting some earlier. One thing to remember: If you find a rules loophole that potentially allows infinite abuse, you're either reading something wrong or insulting your DMs intelligence.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 09:39 AM	The psionic feat that makes refocusing a move action fixes it. Since you have as many as you want, TD is already quicking using the epic rules for that, so you dont blow any focus or anyhting.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 09:40 AM	Also hustle is a swift action, using a quickened action, when i get back from my trip ill attach my wizards e-mail saying feats that have multiple effect, such as toughness and mutlispell and damgage reduction, stack wheny ou fuse since you get a complete new list from the fuse, also the first bit about the fusion ending, is that after or before the 1 round?? and yes i tend to write faster than it think, my apologies.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 09:43 AM	Also remeber, when you fuse you gain the TD spell from your duplicate , (he has 1) and you have one so you combine the 2 gaining infinite epic spells, but you they BOTH have to be TD since your double will always have what you have, also since TD pulls your copy from "possible futures" that solves the problem of Time paradoxes....maybe.
Naflem 05-17-05, 12:14 PM	Well, Mystra (Midnight) tried to cut off a greater deity's complete fellowship from the weave. If I remember correctly, she targeted Cyric's followers with her "Deny Weave", but Ao wasn't that amused about it and ordered/forced her to restore Cyric's followers' spellcasting abilities. But I don't think Ao would intervene if the deities simply tried to protect Faerűn from an *outside* invasion. Yeah, you go ahead and assume you know what the God of gods would do in a specific situation. Anyway, this post responce obviously assumes that he'll stand by and allow it, just the way that when you turn to the right in a dungeon you assume Ao will stand by and allow it. And, if our Dragon God is from Faerun, well, its not an "outside" invasion, now is it, and it's just as bad form to slaughter all his worshipers with a blink that it is to jack Cyric's followers casting powers.
Naflem 05-17-05, 12:31 PM	:rolleyes: The succubus in question is both Good and Evil, therefore she qualifies as non-good, as she has an alignment that is not-good. Being a specific alignment doesn't make you immune to that alignment's appropriate "word", it makes you vulnerable to the opposing "word". RTFRAW. Worst.... Logic.... Ever....
PhaedrusXY 05-17-05, 12:46 PM	Worst.... Logic.... Ever....Like it or not, he's right. This is explicitly spelled out in the BoED on redeeming fiends, if I remember correctly.
Shebnar 05-17-05, 03:24 PM	And Shebnar it is NOT DM dependant, by the RAW u can do this, now once your Dm figures out what your doing.... thats another story, ya know the Cow From SPace might fall on you, or your guy trips and falls into the tarrasque's mouth etc etc. A DM is used to pair the word 'Illithid Savant' with the word 'gamebreaker/munchkin/campaignwaster'. And he has a weapon you cannot counter: the DM creates circumstances. Illithid Savant: "OK, I'm going to eat that Hexblade's brain! MUWAHAHAHAHAH!" DM: "Can't you he's already dead? You can't eat rancid brains." Illithid Savant: "Hey, dude, that's the 5th frickin' time that you deny my chance to eat a fresh brain and get my class abilities!" DM: "Wrong. The town is full of commoners. You can always eat one of their brains and get their 'I'm a sucker' special ability." The perfect CO build must not only abide by the RAW: it must be neutralized only by Rule-0, only by the DM's big great 'NO'. Also WHY CANT A HALF-ILLITHID be a Savant if i remeber correctly the only important pre req is the ability to EXTRACT which the Half-Ilithid GETS!!! And if you wanna get into it if you READ the book the Half-Illithid is STILL a MIND FLAYER its just a screwed up one, so its technically not even a HALF thats why its can do everything a Mind Flayer can do read it pg.90-91 in the Feind Folio. The only important prerequisite is: Race: Mind Flayer. And a half-illithid, by the RAW, doesn't meet the requisite, as a Half-Elf cannot be a Chameleon just because he is a "screwed up Human". Interested2 is completely right. I like you Guys so here is a didy of a character., So tell me this, i made this Guy a whileback for a broken character contesnt ( i won) but i have always had people tell me its not workable even though i got source material and Wizards support e-mail that says otherwise. To start off Psion 23 (or 25) (Egoist) . Key Powers Known {Fusion, Hustle} Key Feats Quicken Power Key Epic Feats (these are the important ones) Multi Spellx1 ,Epic Manifesting Only Epic Spell NEEDED ~~Time Duplicate Breakdown: The Psion by 23rd or even 25th to be safe has 2 epic spells perday. U need to have a spellcraft (psicraft check of 61), Now this is EASY there are so many ways to get this by 23rd lvl i dont evenw ant to get into it, (and mainly because i dont have the Char sheet on me to tell me how i got it in the first place), What u do is cast Time stop OK now u have your double, What do you do? Say Hi, whats it like int he future ? No U Fuse with him, now here is the kicker u have 1 epic spell per day left, he has 1 left, when u fuse u got 2 :) What'll happen is you continue to do this by casting the already quickend TD, this is possible because u now have MultiSpellx2 when u fuse agian u have Multispellx4...see where this is going. :) u continue to do this till you have whatever PP or HP or Feats u want, i stopped around a millionbajillion. Now what do you do , its still "your turn" so why not make the most of it, using Hustle u can now move wherever you want and with Infinite move actions you will always have a Psi-focus for your quickened feat, I went off and destroyed the Multiverse in 1 ROUND!!!, think about it, nothing and no one can do anyhting because A: its not THEIR TURN and B: u have INFINITE PP to do whatever u want, go and tear down the planar boundrys and kill gods etc etc. Now here is the Kicker.... What i have never figured out...... What happeneds the Next round (shrugs) Does the Fusion continue to support you or does the TD take effect, litterly ripping you apart. and god i dont even like to think about what would happen in round 3. :) Also another little side Note, Since u always keep the best or max of whatever you fuse with, u just have your TD cast wish, Psionic alteration, Fusion whatever, and you will always keep your XP lvl the same :), also using the Savage Species rules for adding templates onto your guy with Wish spells or spells like them (miricales etc) u can effectivly have every template in the game , i mean go have fun, time is your to command .... First of all, caster/manifester levels DO NOT stack together. The text refers to 'class features' that 'pool together', but had already explained what happens to spellcasting/manifesting abilities. i.e. "The fused being knows ALL the powers you know, has the sum of your and the other creature's power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature knows". Furthermore, the text states that, "if both creatures has the same ablity I.E. Sneak Attack, the fused being gains it only once". So you would just have infinite 23/25 manifester levels, which are the cap for your pp expense per manifested power (+3 with Overchannel). With your nice trick you can have had infinite pp and infinite hp...just for a round (see Time Duplicate description). But a full Metamind 10 beats this build regarding infinite pp (10 rounds/day of infinite pp)...just kidding, of course ;) Yes, you get infinite stacking of quickened spells/powers. OK, you can cast Time Duplicate (which is already a quickened spell) ad aeternum in a single round...but Fusion requires 50 XP to be manifested. Manifest it ad libitum and you will deplete your entire XP pool. The only way to avoid this problem is to let your duplicates to manifest Fusion once they are summoned from the future... ...Which means that a Time Duplicate (who is already shifted one round in the future) summons a Time Duplicate of himself (who should have existed 1 round after the first Time Duplicate, and 2 rounds after the original)...and so on, up to infinite Time Duplicates (in order to get infinite pp and infinite hp...and an INFINITE temporal hyatus to separate you from the "last" duplicate). So you have one round, infinite move actions (for manifesting quickened powers/hustle/refocus), a manifester level 25, infinite pp and infinite hp. Good luck at sorting something really good out of it. I guess it won't be difficult. In the second round, you disappear FOREVER with all of your duplicates, since you subsumed your whole existence in a single round. Good suicide strategy. However, you gave me a good idea for the dumbass villain of my next campaign. ;)
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 08:40 PM	A DM is used to pair the word 'Illithid Savant' with the word 'gamebreaker/munchkin/campaignwaster'. And he has a weapon you cannot counter: the DM creates circumstances. Illithid Savant: "OK, I'm going to eat that Hexblade's brain! MUWAHAHAHAHAH!" DM: "Can't you he's already dead? You can't eat rancid brains." Illithid Savant: "Hey, dude, that's the 5th frickin' time that you deny my chance to eat a fresh brain and get my class abilities!" DM: "Wrong. The town is full of commoners. You can always eat one of their brains and get their 'I'm a sucker' special ability." The perfect CO build must not only abide by the RAW: it must be neutralized only by Rule-0, only by the DM's big great 'NO'. The only important prerequisite is: Race: Mind Flayer. And a half-illithid, by the RAW, doesn't meet the requisite, as a Half-Elf cannot be a Chameleon just because he is a "screwed up Human". Interested2 is completely right. First of all, caster/manifester levels DO NOT stack together. The text refers to 'class features' that 'pool together', but had already explained what happens to spellcasting/manifesting abilities. i.e. "The fused being knows ALL the powers you know, has the sum of your and the other creature's power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature knows". Furthermore, the text states that, "if both creatures has the same ablity I.E. Sneak Attack, the fused being gains it only once". So you would just have infinite 23/25 manifester levels, which are the cap for your pp expense per manifested power (+3 with Overchannel). With your nice trick you can have had infinite pp and infinite hp...just for a round (see Time Duplicate description). But a full Metamind 10 beats this build regarding infinite pp (10 rounds/day of infinite pp)...just kidding, of course ;) Yes, you get infinite stacking of quickened spells/powers. OK, you can cast Time Duplicate (which is already a quickened spell) ad aeternum in a single round...but Fusion requires 50 XP to be manifested. Manifest it ad libitum and you will deplete your entire XP pool. The only way to avoid this problem is to let your duplicates to manifest Fusion once they are summoned from the future... ...Which means that a Time Duplicate (who is already shifted one round in the future) summons a Time Duplicate of himself (who should have existed 1 round after the first Time Duplicate, and 2 rounds after the original)...and so on, up to infinite Time Duplicates (in order to get infinite pp and infinite hp...and an INFINITE temporal hyatus to separate you from the "last" duplicate). So you have one round, infinite move actions (for manifesting quickened powers/hustle/refocus), a manifester level 25, infinite pp and infinite hp. Good luck at sorting something really good out of it. I guess it won't be difficult. In the second round, you disappear FOREVER with all of your duplicates, since you subsumed your whole existence in a single round. Good suicide strategy. However, you gave me a good idea for the dumbass villain of my next campaign. ;) OK i see where your comming with the mind flayer one, as the halfie is "technically" not a mind flayer, but be sure to read the fluff. I dont know where you got the mainifester stacking and stuff what you said there at the end is EXACTLY what i was trying to explain, now the part about being subsumed i Like, its a perfect ending for that combo, but agian i dont think that is what would happen, since you have 2 powers active, Fusion and TD, now Fusion has the longer duration, no one including wizards R&D has been able to tell me what happens as there are differing explinations about what would happen, but no one has ever told me that the character would die. First of all, caster/manifester levels DO NOT stack together. <------ agian i dont know where u got that, as i read back i in no way state that this would happen....boggles the mind!!! Also this idea even if its a suicide idea was for a Broken character contest, so it didnt really matter if he died at the end, its just a really cool way to destroy the multiverse in "1 round" and your right it makes for a Peeeerfect villian.
Wizard Random 05-17-05, 08:45 PM	Also getting technical, the Lords of Madness Book and the Feind FOlio, both descibe the Half-illithid...as exactly that a HALF-illithid. Now just following that, and the rules and ideas presented in the Races of Destiny book a Halfie CAN qualify for the class of a full blodded member of the race, just as the other "mind flayers" in the Lords of Madness, the roper/mind flayer can qualify for this class if it wants, since it is still a mind-flayer etc etc. The unique way mind-flayers reproduce is what cuases all these mutations, and that is exactly what they are.....Mutations, just cause a human is exposed to radiation and changes doesnt mean he is not human anymore. Now what i can see happening if wizards put out say a errata that only True Mind flayers and nto their messed up aspects could take the class or perhaps add a racial feat as a house rule that is similer too human ancestry from the Races of destiny.
lokkesmadr 05-17-05, 09:03 PM	Half-Illithids are, believe it or not, absolutely and completely distinct from Mind Flayers, in the same way that a chimp with herpes simplex is different from a human with herpes simplex. Would you let a chimp qualify for Chameleon because "It's sort of like a human"? A half-illithid doesn't have the handy little racial feature that half-elves have, so it simply isn't an illithid. A half elf couldn't be any prestige class restricted to humans only, anyway, so that line of argument is fundamentally buggered for a start.
SigmaJargon 05-17-05, 09:08 PM	It bears mentioning that the Multispell feat grants a character the ability to cast an additional quickened spell each round. It does not grant a character additional swift actions. You can cast additional spells, as long as they are quickened. However, spells with a casting time of swift are not quickened just because they only take a swift action. Unless you also choose to apply the Quicken Spell feat to a swift-cast spell, it is not quickened, and it not an applicable target for the Multispell feat. Of course, if somebody can point me to a textual reference that states that a swift action spell is a quickened spell, then that would be awesome. Remember folks, A implies B does not imply that B implies A. Just because being quickened implies that a spell will take a swift action to cast does not mean that a swift action spell implies the prescence of quickening.
Elderich 05-17-05, 09:32 PM	Amazing.... You get; a implies b is not equal to b implies a.. But dont get that; another = an other = a other = any other? Just kidding ya...
lostone 05-18-05, 07:30 AM	Also getting technical, the Lords of Madness Book and the Feind FOlio, both descibe the Half-illithid...as exactly that a HALF-illithid.Where is the half-illithid mentioned in LoM? I read the Mind Flayer chapter hoping for something about them and didn't see any mention of them. Unless you are referring to the reproduction method and deriving from that, which I fully agree with.
Gimp 05-18-05, 10:12 AM	Two thoughts: What happens if you have a cohort (with an int of 1.456*10^6 and a cha in the same range) has an idea? An idea like "Hey, why do I follow this stupid dragon wonnabe-god? He should follow ME!!!"? Or develops an epic spell without SR / save that deals 5.4271*10^13 force damage to a dragon ascendant? Or Mystra knows that in x days at high noon our dragon ascendant cast spell y. Torm knows that in x days at high noon our dragon ascendant fights the gods of Tormil. Kelemvor knows that in x days few seconds after high noon all gods but our dragon ascendant are dead. And they speak about this. Could the count 1 and 1 together, creating a spell to port back in time and slay our challanger when he just got his 1nd level of dragon ascendant? Of course Ao might block this. Or he might sit back and watch. As I said, just some thoughts.
Khan the Destroyer 05-18-05, 11:39 AM	What happens if you have a cohort (with an int of 1.456*10^6 and a cha in the same range) has an idea? An idea like "Hey, why do I follow this stupid dragon wonnabe-god? He should follow ME!!!"? Or develops an epic spell without SR / save that deals 5.4271*10^13 force damage to a dragon ascendant? Because the cohort will not have that high of an intelligence or charisma without the Dragon Ascendant. Because even with the incredible bonus to Spellcraft that the cohort has (thanks again to the Dragon Ascendant) he needs the Dragon god to provide the crazy amount of gold and XP for the stupid-uber epic spells. Without the Dragon Ascendant, the Cohort is just a powerful Epic mortal. With the resources of the Dragon Ascendant, he is much more. The relationship between the Dragon and his cohort is mutually beneficial. The Dragon Ascendant becomes crazy powerful and the cohort even gains a Divine Rank. "Well, I am pretty smart without him. I don't need a Divine Rank. I'll just stay mortal and make him follow me, even though I have had no problems following him until now." I don't think so. Or Mystra knows that in x days at high noon our dragon ascendant cast spell y. Torm knows that in x days at high noon our dragon ascendant fights the gods of Tormil. Kelemvor knows that in x days few seconds after high noon all gods but our dragon ascendant are dead. And they speak about this. Could the count 1 and 1 together, creating a spell to port back in time and slay our challanger when he just got his 1nd level of dragon ascendant? Is there a way to travel back in time? The only way I know of was in Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious book, and even then altering the past would kill you. We can assume that the gods can do anything, but that would be silly and pointless. If their powers are indeed limited, then it doesn't matter that they know. As I have said before, there is no reason to assume that the Dragon Ascendant assends immediately before he attacks the gods, or ascends specifically to attack the gods. He very well could be a super powerful deity minding his own business until one day he decides to attack the gods. They may know in advance, but what can they do by then? He is too powerful to stop.
malaegoth 05-18-05, 11:47 AM	Why do people keep saying 'if your DM allows this?' As I understood, this is an intellectual exercise to determine if it's even possible, with a GM's implicit acceptance of whatever. All you people harping about 'no GM would ever allow this' need to simmah dahn nah.
Gimp 05-18-05, 12:47 PM	Because the cohort will not have that high of an intelligence or charisma without the Dragon Ascendant. Because even with the incredible bonus to Spellcraft that the cohort has (thanks again to the Dragon Ascendant) he needs the Dragon god to provide the crazy amount of gold and XP for the stupid-uber epic spells. Without the Dragon Ascendant, the Cohort is just a powerful Epic mortal. With the resources of the Dragon Ascendant, he is much more. The relationship between the Dragon and his cohort is mutually beneficial. The Dragon Ascendant becomes crazy powerful and the cohort even gains a Divine Rank. "Well, I am pretty smart without him. I don't need a Divine Rank. I'll just stay mortal and make him follow me, even though I have had no problems following him until now." I don't think so. The cohort has a divine rank. Dosn't this mean he is a god now too? And sitting 1.000 years (or what ever the time was) in plane twisting thumbs sounds somewhat boring. The cohort would have enough time to think about god and the world ;) / get some XP / gold... We can assume that the gods can do anything, but that would be silly and pointless. If their powers are indeed limited, then it doesn't matter that they know. As I have said before, there is no reason to assume that the Dragon Ascendant assends immediately before he attacks the gods, or ascends specifically to attack the gods. He very well could be a super powerful deity minding his own business until one day he decides to attack the gods. They may know in advance, but what can they do by then? He is too powerful to stop. As I said: They could travel back in time and try to prevent this. If (you are right, this is a big if) there is a way to travel back in time it wouldn't matter if the dragon ascendant attacks the god as soon as he is ready or waits 10.000 years. Even if the god travling back in time would get killed they might see this as acceptable compared all get wiped. On the other hand: They could create a plane with accelerated time, power level a follower (with one of the builds posted here) to CL70 and let him attack the dragon ascendant or his cohort. Depending of the portfolio of the dragon ascendant he might not notice this. I know there are many if / could / would and so on. All I wanted to say is that the gods aren't stupid and will try to prevent getting killed or at least be prepared for the attack. PS: If it is so "easy" to get from DR 0 to DR 20 then why don't (almost) all gods have DR20? Sure, some gods might not intressted become the most powerfull god. But a handfull of them would do it for sure.
Khan the Destroyer 05-18-05, 07:28 PM	The cohort has a divine rank. Dosn't this mean he is a god now too? And sitting 1.000 years (or what ever the time was) in plane twisting thumbs sounds somewhat boring. The cohort would have enough time to think about god and the world ;) / get some XP / gold... The cohort is a deity by virtue of the very god he follows. If the cohort were to decide he didn't want to follow and aid the Dragon Ascendant anymore, the Greater Dragon god could simply strip him of his divine rank. Besides, I am sure they can come up with some sort of cosmic/divine Twister game, or Scrabble or something to pass the time :). As I said: They could travel back in time and try to prevent this. If (you are right, this is a big if) there is a way to travel back in time it wouldn't matter if the dragon ascendant attacks the god as soon as he is ready or waits 10.000 years. Even if the god travling back in time would get killed they might see this as acceptable compared all get wiped. None of the deities I see statted out can travel back in time. I know there are many if / could / would and so on. All I wanted to say is that the gods aren't stupid and will try to prevent getting killed or at least be prepared for the attack. No one is assuming that the gods are stupid. If the gods would kill anyone that beomces a deity, then I see your point. If the gods would kill anyone that is tremendously powerful, then I see your point. Again, it isn't like the Dragon has to decide one day that he will be a deity that slays all other deities. Let's assume that he has been a greater deity for 3000 years now, and has coexisted with the other deities for those 3000 years. And after growing incredibly paranoid, him and his cohort devise powerful epic spells to make him pretty much invulnerable to any form of attack. 200 more years pass by, and Torm's senses start tingling. In 17 (or however many) days, the Dragon Ascendant will attack the pantheon. Oh no. Time to prepare for the battle or prevent it from happening. That's fine, of course the gods would do that. But the Dragon Ascendant is pretty much indestructible. PS: If it is so "easy" to get from DR 0 to DR 20 then why don't (almost) all gods have DR20? Sure, some gods might not intressted become the most powerfull god. But a handfull of them would do it for sure. Who knows. Maybe they do not have enough worshippers. Again, it is an assupmtion that followers increase Divine Rank, since the Deities and Demigods book says that the power of some deities is affected by their worshippers. What would be the point of the DM challenging his players if he posed it like this: "Alright, you guys have 60 levels to play with. I want you to build a character that can take on the entire Faerun Pantheon. All books allowed, we are using 32 point-buy, and the deities will travel back in time to stop you, will stop you before you do anything, will all have DR 20, and AO says "no".
Wizard Random 05-18-05, 10:31 PM	It bears mentioning that the Multispell feat grants a character the ability to cast an additional quickened spell each round. It does not grant a character additional swift actions. You can cast additional spells, as long as they are quickened. However, spells with a casting time of swift are not quickened just because they only take a swift action. Unless you also choose to apply the Quicken Spell feat to a swift-cast spell, it is not quickened, and it not an applicable target for the Multispell feat. Of course, if somebody can point me to a textual reference that states that a swift action spell is a quickened spell, then that would be awesome. Remember folks, A implies B does not imply that B implies A. Just because being quickened implies that a spell will take a swift action to cast does not mean that a swift action spell implies the prescence of quickening. OK lets try this agian shall we. The EPH states this ----> SWIFT ACTION: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expanditure of energy and effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ablity to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swft action per turn,regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normaly be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve psionics or the activation of magic items, many characters (especially those who dont have psionics) never have a oppritunity to take a swift action. MANIFESTING A QUICKENED POWER IS A SWIFT ACTION. IN ADDITION, MANIFESTING ANY POWER WITH A CASTING TIME OF 1 SWIFT ACTION (SUCH AS BURST) IS A SWIFT ACTION. Manifesting a power with a manfesting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of oppritunity. What have we learned here today kids??? :confused: Well we have learned that when you use a power that uses swift actions they are in turn a QUICKENED action, hmmm but teacher it states that you c an only use 1 swift action per turn just like a quickened spell. Yes billy you are correct but with a Epic Feat called Multispell, that rule is negated and you are allowed to take multiple quickened actions per turn.
SigmaJargon 05-18-05, 11:10 PM	OK lets try this agian shall we. The EPH states this ----> SWIFT ACTION: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expanditure of energy and effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ablity to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swft action per turn,regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normaly be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve psionics or the activation of magic items, many characters (especially those who dont have psionics) never have a oppritunity to take a swift action. MANIFESTING A QUICKENED POWER IS A SWIFT ACTION. IN ADDITION, MANIFESTING ANY POWER WITH A CASTING TIME OF 1 SWIFT ACTION (SUCH AS BURST) IS A SWIFT ACTION. Manifesting a power with a manfesting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of oppritunity. What have we learned here today kids??? :confused: Well we have learned that when you use a power that uses swift actions they are in turn a QUICKENED action, hmmm but teacher it states that you c an only use 1 swift action per turn just like a quickened spell. Yes billy you are correct but with a Epic Feat called Multispell, that rule is negated and you are allowed to take multiple quickened actions per turn.But NOT multiple swift actions. All this says is that a spell that takes a swift action takes a swift action. It does not say that a swift action is a quickened spell. The Multispell feat only allows additional quickened spells to be cast each round, not additional swift actions to be taken. Saying that because a quickened spell requires a swift action, a swift action spell is a quickened spell is like saying that because bards have a d6 hit die, because class C has a d6 hit die, it is a bard (despite the fact that it is actually a rogue). This does not nerf Multispell at all, but it does prevent a person from manifesting or casting multiple swift action spells that have not had the Quicken Spell feat applied to them. Also, I would appreciate it greatly if you would not speak down to me. Certainly, even as we argue, we can be civil to each other?
Gimp 05-19-05, 06:19 AM	The cohort is a deity by virtue of the very god he follows. If the cohort were to decide he didn't want to follow and aid the Dragon Ascendant anymore, the Greater Dragon god could simply strip him of his divine rank. May be this is just the point the cohort doesn't like anymore. He might be to affraid to lose his powers he likes so much now. Or one of the other gods convince him that he deserve the place of the Dragon Ascendant. Or he just got mad. I'm sure we could find more reasons why the cohort would turn against his patron. I only wanted to point out that having such powerfull cohort might not without risk. None of the deities I see statted out can travel back in time. Ok, let us forget this idea. Who knows. Maybe they do not have enough worshippers. Again, it is an assupmtion that followers increase Divine Rank, since the Deities and Demigods book says that the power of some deities is affected by their worshippers. This could be a flaw in your build. To gather enough followers to get DR20 you have to "steal" these followers from other gods. And they might not amused losing so many followers (somehow I doubt that are millions of agnostic beeings on Fearun you could attract). When you build your protfolio you will step on some (godly) toes again. I think there is no area not covered by atleast one god. Both points aren't covered by rules and the DM has to decide. Of course he can say "Ao likes you. You are now the most powerfull diety. He won't interfere with whatever you do."
Ra-Tiel 05-19-05, 07:38 AM	Hi. === *SIGH* <:rant:> Why the hell are you using material that was published after F&P to compare to entities that were only designed with material from before or from F&P? It's like comparing a BMW Isetta from 1971 to a Mercedes F1 from 2002. If you really want a representative build then get out your v3.0 supplements that were published before or at the same time as F&P and try again. Read: No Dragon Ascendants! Alternatively, you could just do a complete rebuild of the Faerunian pantheon with all the recent supplements. I bet Tempus as a freaked out Barbarian/Fighter/Epic Frenzied Berserker would surely rock your party with "Shock Trooper" and "Leap Attack". Considering that he'd always get a "20" (but not a nat20) on his attack rolls, he could power attack for a world of hurt. Or Mystra as a Wizard/Iot7fW/Epic Incantatrix. What about Lathander as Cleric/Radiant Servant/Epic Morninglord? Hmm.... :thinks: But what is going on here right now is nothing but stupid number crunching that's bare of any sense or representative ability. Just put them both on equal footing or stop :censored: around here. </:rant:> === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
trunks9809 05-19-05, 07:46 AM	<:rant:> Why the hell are you using material that was published after F&P to compare to entities that were only designed with material from before or from F&P? Gee, maybe because thats what the thread-starters DM said to do?
lostone 05-19-05, 09:25 AM	Why the hell are you using material that was published after F&P to compare to entities that were only designed with material from before or from F&P?Ever read the 3.5 Update Booklet? It gives rules for updating things. It doesn't cover everything but with a little common sense and understanding of 3.5 rules it does not take more than about 3 minutes to update anything to 3.5. Anything 3.0 is easilly usable in a 3.5 game, I do it all the time, with very little change in the levels of game balance. Calm down, if you don't like the way this thread has progressed, don't read it. No one is forcing you to except yourself.
Khan the Destroyer 05-19-05, 01:06 PM	May be this is just the point the cohort doesn't like anymore. He might be to affraid to lose his powers he likes so much now. Or one of the other gods convince him that he deserve the place of the Dragon Ascendant. Or he just got mad. I'm sure we could find more reasons why the cohort would turn against his patron. I only wanted to point out that having such powerfull cohort might not without risk. I guess. But it just seems... strange. Why assume that anything different happens, or that things change for the detriment of the character? The cohort may very well love his leader, may want more power, may not trust other gods, etc... Why should we assume that the cohort leaves the Dragon Ascendant right when he needs him the most? I guess it could go either way. But relatively speaking, they still have a leader/cohort relationship. By virtue of the Leadership feat itself, the cohort cannot really be stronger than the leader. Even at Divine Rank 1, the cohort is still following a Divine Rank 20 Greater Deity Great Wyrm Dragon. The Dragon is still capable of killing him with Life and Death, or Divine Blast. And also, an Illithid Savant can do it without a cohort. This could be a flaw in your build. To gather enough followers to get DR20 you have to "steal" these followers from other gods. And they might not amused losing so many followers (somehow I doubt that are millions of agnostic beeings on Fearun you could attract). When you build your protfolio you will step on some (godly) toes again. I think there is no area not covered by atleast one god. The gods are not trigger happy beings that attack on a whim. I haven't seen anything that indicates that the gods themselves attack anyone that ascends, anyone that attains crazy power, or any god that attracts some of their worshipers. In any event, if the Dragon Ascendant has "stolen" apparently so many worshipers as to anger the gods, then he is presumably strong enough to stop some attack from an enraged deity. Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with Snow Savant's Shades/Dragon Ally spell combo. Basically, you use Shades to mimic the effects of the Dragon Ally spell (from Draconomicon). Simply, it gets you an army of dragons at no cost :). Instead of using the leadership feat, we could use an army of dragons to fuel the Dragon Ascendant's rise through the divine ranks (since you can make a dragon as many times as you have 9th and 8th level spells a day). Both points aren't covered by rules and the DM has to decide. Of course he can say "Ao likes you. You are now the most powerfull diety. He won't interfere with whatever you do." Very true. But since this whole thread exists because the DM wanted his players to take on the entire pantheon, we assume that he won't be trying to stop them from killing gods. If you really want a representative build then get out your v3.0 supplements that were published before or at the same time as F&P and try again. Read: No Dragon Ascendants! Huh? Are you implying that we cannot use any material published after Faiths and Pantheons? That is silly. It is easy enough to update everything to 3.5. Alternatively, you could just do a complete rebuild of the Faerunian pantheon with all the recent supplements. I bet Tempus as a freaked out Barbarian/Fighter/Epic Frenzied Berserker would surely rock your party with "Shock Trooper" and "Leap Attack". Considering that he'd always get a "20" (but not a nat20) on his attack rolls, he could power attack for a world of hurt. Or Mystra as a Wizard/Iot7fW/Epic Incantatrix. What about Lathander as Cleric/Radiant Servant/Epic Morninglord? Hmm.... I don't know if you have actually seen the Dragon Ascendant after his cohort uses Cosmic Connection to make some Epic spells but, none of these gods will stop him. Even if you update them to 3.5 and min/max them, he won't be stopped. And he will still kill them with relative ease. Tempus Frenzied Berserker with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack- Tempus will still not be able to hit the Dragon Ascendant unless he rolls a Natural 20. The DA has an AC in the Quitillions (or pentillions, whichever). Even if Tempus rolls a natural 20, he will not comfirm a critical hit. If he deals HP damage (assuming the DA hasn't made some crazy epic spell to ward him of any damage), the Dragon Ascendant gets about 1 million HP per HD. I don't think he will be sweating any HP attacks. Mystra as an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Incantratix- The Dragon Ascendant's saves are all in the 21 digits. He can't fail on a natural 1. He will make every single saving throw. He will have SR in the 21 digits. She will have to rely on spells that do not have SR or saving throws. And even then he can teleport at-will (as any other god), and is immune to all sorts of effects by virtue of his Divine Rank. Lathander as an Epic Morninglord and Radiant Servant- Um... nothing really here to be afraid of, except that maybe he can persist a lot of stuff with Divine Metamagic, or hurt Undead really bad. Lathander's toast.
TheVagrant 05-19-05, 04:35 PM	Epic sorcerer with epic leadership, extra follower feat (X2 follower "Heros of battle") legendary commender. at lvl 60 you get roughly 60k follower + 2k follower per cha bonus choose all followers with spell slots take the epic spellcasting feat create epic spell with -60000 to the spellcraft dc because every follower give you a lvl 1 spell slot then use your imagination, destroy an entire planet with a 52000 ft destruction cone of 320 d20 dmg with a DC of 100+ to resist and 100+ to overcome SR and you can do it from the comfort of your home from another plane using a sensor from the reveal seed that allows you to cast trough it. Maybe that could do the trick.
Wizard Random 05-19-05, 07:42 PM	But NOT multiple swift actions. All this says is that a spell that takes a swift action takes a swift action. It does not say that a swift action is a quickened spell. The Multispell feat only allows additional quickened spells to be cast each round, not additional swift actions to be taken. Saying that because a quickened spell requires a swift action, a swift action spell is a quickened spell is like saying that because bards have a d6 hit die, because class C has a d6 hit die, it is a bard (despite the fact that it is actually a rogue). This does not nerf Multispell at all, but it does prevent a person from manifesting or casting multiple swift action spells that have not had the Quicken Spell feat applied to them. Also, I would appreciate it greatly if you would not speak down to me. Certainly, even as we argue, we can be civil to each other? Alright alright looking back i was a little out of control, my apologies. But i am telling a swift action counts as a quickned action for this I PROMISE, send wizards a e-mail and see what they say back , be sure to ask about multispell etc etc, i promise you i am right on this.
Gimp 05-20-05, 07:49 AM	I guess. But it just seems... strange. Why assume that anything different happens, or that things change for the detriment of the character? The cohort may very well love his leader, may want more power, may not trust other gods, etc... Why should we assume that the cohort leaves the Dragon Ascendant right when he needs him the most? Or this happens somewhere in the 3000 years when the dragon ascendant is part of the pantion. But ok, let us say nothing happens that would be negative for the build. I guess it could go either way. But relatively speaking, they still have a leader/cohort relationship. By virtue of the Leadership feat itself, the cohort cannot really be stronger than the leader. Even at Divine Rank 1, the cohort is still following a Divine Rank 20 Greater Deity Great Wyrm Dragon. The Dragon is still capable of killing him with Life and Death, or Divine Blast. If he has these abilities and knows that his cohort wants to rebell and goes 1st in iniative then yes. Of course you can build your portfolio in a way to cover this. And also, an Illithid Savant can do it without a cohort. I havn't the underdark book. Not much I can say to this build. The gods are not trigger happy beings that attack on a whim. I haven't seen anything that indicates that the gods themselves attack anyone that ascends, anyone that attains crazy power, or any god that attracts some of their worshipers. In any event, if the Dragon Ascendant has "stolen" apparently so many worshipers as to anger the gods, then he is presumably strong enough to stop some attack from an enraged deity. Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with Snow Savant's Shades/Dragon Ally spell combo. Basically, you use Shades to mimic the effects of the Dragon Ally spell (from Draconomicon). Simply, it gets you an army of dragons at no cost :). Instead of using the leadership feat, we could use an army of dragons to fuel the Dragon Ascendant's rise through the divine ranks (since you can make a dragon as many times as you have 9th and 8th level spells a day). Yes, an intressting combo. Make an island / plane where he can place all the dragons (to build up a local panteon and not stepping on the toes of other gods regarding followers / portfolio). Now he just has to protect the island / plane that no one can come in and kill all the worshipers and putting him back to DR0. Mystra as an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Incantratix- The Dragon Ascendant's saves are all in the 21 digits. He can't fail on a natural 1. He will make every single saving throw. He will have SR in the 21 digits. She will have to rely on spells that do not have SR or saving throws. And even then he can teleport at-will (as any other god), and is immune to all sorts of effects by virtue of his Divine Rank. How about she creats an epic spell without save / SR that puts the target to... 50HPs (if the DC would be to high she could use cooperativ magic and use some thousends of her followers)? Use the seed that a wound spell would have (havn't any book here but it would be just a necromantic spell without the death descriptor). Have a contigancy ready that fires a modified magic missle spell (1 missle / caster level [max 20missles] and ignores SR too [should be level 9 or less]) when your target drops to 50HP from the epic spell.
Khan the Destroyer 05-20-05, 01:09 PM	How about she creats an epic spell without save / SR that puts the target to... 50HPs (if the DC would be to high she could use cooperativ magic and use some thousends of her followers)? Use the seed that a wound spell would have (havn't any book here but it would be just a necromantic spell without the death descriptor). Have a contigancy ready that fires a modified magic missle spell (1 missle / caster level [max 20missles] and ignores SR too [should be level 9 or less]) when your target drops to 50HP from the epic spell. The whole point of the cohort is to use Epic spells to make the Dragon Ascendant untouchable/unstoppable. It is easy enough to make an Epic spell using the Reflect seed and the Ward seed to ensure that nothing can harm the Dragon Ascendant and anything that could hit instead reflects back on the caster/attacker. And at a caster level in the 21 digits, no one will be able to break through these effects with a caster level check. The Dragon was designed to take out a pantheon, he is pretty much safe from everything. Meanwhile, 1 swipe of his claw is enough to kill any deity millions of times over.
lokkesmadr 05-20-05, 05:47 PM	Mystra as an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Incantratix- Hang on, surely Mystra should be a Dweomerkeeper? I mean, it is *her* prestige class, after all...
Ra-Tiel 05-21-05, 01:00 AM	Hi. === @Khan the Destroyer: The whole point of the cohort is to use Epic spells to make the Dragon Ascendant untouchable/unstoppable. It is easy enough to make an Epic spell using the Reflect seed and the Ward seed to ensure that nothing can harm the Dragon Ascendant and anything that could hit instead reflects back on the caster/attacker. And at a caster level in the 21 digits, no one will be able to break through these effects with a caster level check. The Dragon was designed to take out a pantheon, he is pretty much safe from everything. Meanwhile, 1 swipe of his claw is enough to kill any deity millions of times over. Ok, and who says the gods cannot do the same trick? And I mean, while the dragon ascendent has to earn his divine ranks (which no where is described how to do -> DM dependent!), the deities already have their divine ranks. Why shouldn't every greater deity have 2 of these cohorts? Have them work in conjunction, the bonuses the deities can get should be even higher than the bonuses to the dragon ascendent. You all assume that the deities are not able to use the same twinks as the dragon ascendent. But when you tweak them in exactly the same way, use exactly the same loopholes, then the Faerűnian pantheon will still stomp the dragon ascendent, because after all "pantheon > 1", when all have the same bonuses. I don't want to sound offensive, and if my last post sounded so, I apologize, but what is going on here, comparing subpar built v3.0 "characters" against a tweaked out uses-all-supplements-twink from v3.5 is not really representative. You also could compare a level 1 cleric vs a level 20 wizard/level 20 incantatrix and wonder why the cleric looses. Or a 386 vs a AMD Athlon 64+ and wonder why the 386 cannot display WinXP, let alone eg "Act of War". In my opinion, you have to set them both on equal footing to be able to validly compare the two. And remember: the deities are (usually) already much older and wiser than the dragon when he begins his "career". So the deities probably have already discovered that trick with the cosmic descryer. And, according to the RAW, the DM could always say to the dragon ascendent: "You encounter a commoner. This commoner has found the Annulus. You are dead." === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Khan the Destroyer 05-21-05, 03:37 AM	Hi. === @Khan the Destroyer: Ok, and who says the gods cannot do the same trick? And I mean, while the dragon ascendent has to earn his divine ranks (which no where is described how to do -> DM dependent!), the deities already have their divine ranks. Why shouldn't every greater deity have 2 of these cohorts? Have them work in conjunction, the bonuses the deities can get should be even higher than the bonuses to the dragon ascendent. Presumably, you may have answered your own question. If the gods of the existing pantheon already have their divine ranks, they have no reason to try and find a way to earn it. The Dragon Ascendant has to "earn" his divinity, he has the motivation to search for a means. The gods are already nigh unstoppable, and considering the millions of worshipers they have, and the several portfolios, and deific grudges, and servants, and all sorts of other godly matters to attend to, why assume that they would be going around doing exaclty what the Dragon Ascendant is doing? They have many many other things to attend to. You all assume that the deities are not able to use the same twinks as the dragon ascendent. But when you tweak them in exactly the same way, use exactly the same loopholes, then the Faerűnian pantheon will still stomp the dragon ascendent, because after all "pantheon > 1", when all have the same bonuses. Well, then we are all making assumptions. I assume that not every deity will mimic every other deity, and that ideals and principles that each individual deity holds will determine what sort of progression they have. You assume that because the Dragon Ascendant does it, every deity will. I don't want to sound offensive, and if my last post sounded so, I apologize, but what is going on here, comparing subpar built v3.0 "characters" against a tweaked out uses-all-supplements-twink from v3.5 is not really representative. You also could compare a level 1 cleric vs a level 20 wizard/level 20 incantatrix and wonder why the cleric looses. Or a 386 vs a AMD Athlon 64+ and wonder why the 386 cannot display WinXP, let alone eg "Act of War". We can certainly min/max the deities if you would like. But it sounds like you are implying that every deity use the same exact tactics as the Dragon Ascendant. In my opinion, you have to set them both on equal footing to be able to validly compare the two. Well, maybe there is a misunderstanding. We aren't comparing anything here, we were set out to get a build that would destroy the Faerun pantheon. If we managed to use an Ubercharger build to do it, should we then assume that every deity is likewise an Ubercharger? Or if the Hulking Hurler somehow could survive long enough to destroy a deity with a giant rock, should every deity then have levels in the Hulking Hurler prestige class? And remember: the deities are (usually) already much older and wiser than the dragon when he begins his "career". So the deities probably have already discovered that trick with the cosmic descryer. Very true. But show me a deity in any book that has levels in Cosmic Descryer, or a cohort with levels in Cosmic Descryer. There aren't any. So it seems none of them are interested. We could assume everything in favor of the deities, so that no one could ever hope to defeat them, but that would make this pointless. And, according to the RAW, the DM could always say to the dragon ascendent: "You encounter a commoner. This commoner has found the Annulus. You are dead." Well, the Annulus only affects psionic beings, so that is a no-go right off of the bat. Also, it takes 10 rounds of concentration to defeat anyone with it. So, unless you know of a way for a commoner to stand toe-to-toe with the Dragon Ascendant for 10 rounds without dying, it still won't work.
Ra-Tiel 05-21-05, 04:06 AM	Hi. === @Khan the Destroyer: Presumably, you may have answered your own question. If the gods of the existing pantheon already have their divine ranks, they have no reason to try and find a way to earn it. The Dragon Ascendant has to "earn" his divinity, he has the motivation to search for a means. The gods are already nigh unstoppable, and considering the millions of worshipers they have, and the several portfolios, and deific grudges, and servants, and all sorts of other godly matters to attend to, why assume that they would be going around doing exaclty what the Dragon Ascendant is doing? They have many many other things to attend to. Well, more power is more power, isn't it? And more power is never bad. But the main problem I see with this built: how do you get additional Divine Ranks? Nowhere in the D&DG or F&P is a method described to do that. So, according to the RAW more than DR 0 is off-limits (if you give the dragon ascendent DR0 at all). I still say it doesn't gain a DR, because when I say "my car is effectively as fast as a Ferrari" does not imply that my car is a Ferrari. And consider: Do the deities have DR16 (or what they have) because they have millions of followers, or do they have millions of followers because they have DR16? Is the red dragon evil because he's powerful or powerful because he's evil? Do I rob the bank because I own a rifle, or do I own a rifle because I rob the bank? You're turning in circles here. Well, then we are all making assumptions. I assume that not every deity will mimic every other deity, and that ideals and principles that each individual deity holds will determine what sort of progression they have. You assume that because the Dragon Ascendant does it, every deity will. I don't assume that every deity will do it, but that every deity already has done something similar. We can certainly min/max the deities if you would like. But it sounds like you are implying that every deity use the same exact tactics as the Dragon Ascendant. Why not? Don't you think that Mystra should know every possible way with magic? And about planes? What if she meets with Azuth and puts up a new way of spellcasting? And basically, Mystra could still shut of your dragon ascendant and all of his followers without any SR or Save allowed from the weave. Well, maybe there is a misunderstanding. We aren't comparing anything here, we were set out to get a build that would destroy the Faerun pantheon. If we managed to use an Ubercharger build to do it, should we then assume that every deity is likewise an Ubercharger? Or if the Hulking Hurler somehow could survive long enough to destroy a deity with a giant rock, should every deity then have levels in the Hulking Hurler prestige class? I don't say that they must copy your dragon, but they could very well also use epic spellcasting to their advantage. Or the loophole with cosmic descryer. Very true. But show me a deity in any book that has levels in Cosmic Descryer, or a cohort with levels in Cosmic Descryer. There aren't any. So it seems none of them are interested. We could assume everything in favor of the deities, so that no one could ever hope to defeat them, but that would make this pointless. Well, then you wouldn't be allowed to use anything beyond the epic handbook. Just because the deities were not designed with epic rules in mind doesn't mean they don't use them. No supplement can be designed to be compatible with every other supplement pusblished later on. So, you have your young adult black dragon with either dragon ascendent or epic levels. But not both, because the dragon ascendent also wasn't designed with epic rules in mind, was he? Well, the Annulus only affects psionic beings, so that is a no-go right off of the bat. Also, it takes 10 rounds of concentration to defeat anyone with it. So, unless you know of a way for a commoner to stand toe-to-toe with the Dragon Ascendant for 10 rounds without dying, it still won't work. Sorry, didn't realize that it changed from v3.0. Ok, the annulus is out. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
trunks9809 05-21-05, 06:44 AM	Well, then you wouldn't be allowed to use anything beyond the epic handbook. Just because the deities were not designed with epic rules in mind doesn't mean they don't use them. No supplement can be designed to be compatible with every other supplement pusblished later on. So, you have your young adult black dragon with either dragon ascendent or epic levels. But not both, because the dragon ascendent also wasn't designed with epic rules in mind, was he? Actually, the Draconomicon (like most recent suppliments) has been designed to fit in with the majority of the previously published WoTC suppliments - including the Epic Level Handbook (Hence the Epic Feats, Epic Dragon Options etc)
Shebnar 05-21-05, 07:28 AM	Sorry, didn't realize that it changed from v3.0. Ok, the annulus is out. Plus, there's nothing preventing you from developing an Epic Spell/Power and have your person totally protected against an Annulus. And the Annulus doesn't work against a Null Psionic Field/Antimagic Field.
Khan the Destroyer 05-21-05, 01:26 PM	Well, more power is more power, isn't it? And more power is never bad. But the main problem I see with this built: how do you get additional Divine Ranks? Nowhere in the D&DG or F&P is a method described to do that. So, according to the RAW more than DR 0 is off-limits (if you give the dragon ascendent DR0 at all). I have always said that the build is based on an assumption that more followers gives you divine ranks if you already have a divine rank. I still say it doesn't gain a DR, because when I say "my car is effectively as fast as a Ferrari" does not imply that my car is a Ferrari. Except the draconomicon does not say "The Dragon Ascendant is effectively as powerful as a quasi-deity." It says "The Dragon Ascendant is a quasi-deity." And consider: Do the deities have DR16 (or what they have) because they have millions of followers, or do they have millions of followers because they have DR16? I do not know of all deities, but Vecna and St. Cuthbert both reached divinity by ascending themselves. It is stated that the other deities do not need worshipers to be gods, but that worshipers augment their deific abilities. Is the red dragon evil because he's powerful or powerful because he's evil? The red dragon is evil in game by virtue of probablity on his alignment. For a more in-depth explanation, perhaps he is evil because he was raised to be evil by his red dragon mother. Or he was abandoned and forced to be evil to survive against other evil dragons. He is powerful by virtue of his race, dragons are really strong. Do I rob the bank because I own a rifle, No Ra-Tiel. You rob a bank for many other reasons. However, having a rifle would be useful, but it is not the reason that you rob a bank. or do I own a rifle because I rob the bank? Only if the bank you robbed had a rifle for you to steal. You're turning in circles here. How so? I don't assume that every deity will do it, but that every deity already has done something similar. Such as? Why not? Don't you think that Mystra should know every possible way with magic? And about planes? What if she meets with Azuth and puts up a new way of spellcasting? No I don't think she should, at least not as presented in the books. The designers of DnD apparently do not feel that the gods of DnD should be infinitely powerful. Thus they are statted. And again, even if we min/maxed them and used the Epic Level Handbook, I see no reason to assume that Mystra would know everything there is to know about magic, or that she can just arbitrarily pop up a new form of spellcasting. And basically, Mystra could still shut of your dragon ascendant and all of his followers without any SR or Save allowed from the weave. By all means explain. Well, then you wouldn't be allowed to use anything beyond the epic handbook. Just because the deities were not designed with epic rules in mind doesn't mean they don't use them. No supplement can be designed to be compatible with every other supplement pusblished later on. Go ahead and min/max the deities all you would like and post them, and we will see how well they fare. But I suspect that you will simply give them all Cosmic Descryer cohorts and abuse the Cosmic Connection ability to fuel insane Epic spells. It's not so much that you want access to epic spells, which is fine, but that you want the deities to have the same power as the Dragon. So, you have your young adult black dragon with either dragon ascendent or epic levels. But not both, because the dragon ascendent also wasn't designed with epic rules in mind, was he? Draconomicon does use Epic rules. And considering that Dragon Ascendant requires an epic BAB and an epic feat, I think it was designed with epic rules in mind as well. The OP (speaking of which, I wonder how he fared in the battle) was challenged by his DM to create a character that could take on the faerun pantheon. Therefore, we are not assuming that the OP's DM, in his campaign, will make the deities in such a way that they cannot be defeated. Since it would be cruel and lame for a DM to pose a challenge to his players and then make it impossible to overcome the challenge, I don't think we need to speculate any further if the gods will be indestructible. Obviously the DM has set finite stats for them (whether it is right out of the books or min/maxxed). In which case, Dragon Ascendant trumps all (assuming of course he allowed millions of worshipers to raise a god's divine ranks).
Wizard Random 05-21-05, 08:04 PM	Why doesn't the Anunnlus work in a Anti-magic/null-osionics feild? It IS a artifact is it not. According to the spell descriptions those spells cant stop the power of artifacts and deitys. So even if you were in one, it would still function, assuming you can survive for the 10 mins it takes to use it :cool: Also I understand it normaly only kills psionic beings, but why would it state that in order (from the EPH): It is relitivly easy to nullify a single target, or a small group of targets, but nullifying a more powerful being(such as a demigod or a greater entity) or another major artifact taxes the Annulus to its limits. If it is used to nullify such a target, the artifact succeds but is destroyed in the proces, and cannot be retrived by any means. So are we to assume when attacking a deity or any other beings of that strength or greater the annulus works normaly regardless of wether it is psionic or not? When thr XPH came out there were no psionic deitys besides Saridor, and even the 2-3 that came out with the book dont have stats, so i would say it is safe to assume it works. If still in doubt ask wizards.
Khan the Destroyer 05-21-05, 08:37 PM	In either case, you would have to come up with a build that can survive against a god for 10 rounds, and one that disallows the deity from teleporting away as a free-action.
Shebnar 05-21-05, 09:05 PM	Plus, the new Invoke Magic spell totally ruin your strategy if you are planning to trap the deity in a Dead Magic Zone. :(
Wizard Random 05-23-05, 01:14 AM	Alright try this thread i started, itll easliy kill a god,without being a divine being, and with 60 lvl to play with there is no limit to what you could do. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6247381#post6247381
Gimp 05-23-05, 05:19 AM	For the DR0 of the dragon ascidant: I havn't the draconomicon here but I post some facts I found: Look at page 180. In the lower left it describes a power of one of the planar dragons: It does effect XYZ as printed in chapter 5 of the planar handbook (if you arn't useing the planar hanbbook do something else). Well, not the original wording but the meaning is clear: If you use the planar handbook it works the way as printed there. Because the planar handbooks isn't a core book WotC posted a way to use the dragon without the planar handbook. I don't see such entry for the dragon ascidant. I see it this way: It doesn't state that you get get DR0 nor does it refer to any supllement where the divine ranks are described. RAW you get the immunities but not DR0. And when you look through the draconomicon you will find references to the core books (players handbook, DM guide, monster manual all over the book) as well to the epic level handbook (feats section), OA (in the half dragon template as well in Appendix 2), MoF, Dragon magazine and one or 2 more non-core stuff (all in Appendix 2). We might argue that the epic level handbooks is core but I have a hard time calling OA, MoF, planar handbook and the dragon magazine core material.
lostone 05-23-05, 07:14 AM	But it also describes the Dragon Ascendant (in the last level of the class) as becoming a quasi-deity or demigod (IDHTBWM but it is one of those two). Which in Deities and Demigods is DR 0. It refers to beings that are DR 0 as quasi-deities IIRC. That is where they are getting DR 0, and I think it is a great argument for it. And it isn't like it is overpowering, you have to be epic level to take the class.
Gimp 05-23-05, 07:52 AM	But it also describes the Dragon Ascendant (in the last level of the class) as becoming a quasi-deity or demigod (IDHTBWM but it is one of those two). Which in Deities and Demigods is DR 0. It refers to beings that are DR 0 as quasi-deities IIRC. That is where they are getting DR 0, and I think it is a great argument for it. And it isn't like it is overpowering, you have to be epic level to take the class. IMHO "becomes a quasi-deity" is just fluff in the text. If the class gets DR0 WotC would refer to Deities and Demigods as they did in the description of the planar dragon's power on pg. 180. No such reference means no DR0 for me. The next point is that all dieties are outsiders. And I can't find the note that the type of the dragon ascendant changes to outsider.
lostone 05-23-05, 08:24 AM	That would mean cross-referencing a 3.0 book. I thought they weren't doing that in 3.5. And Tiamat is a Colossal Dragon, not an Outsider. So not all deities are outsiders.
Traks 05-23-05, 08:37 AM	Set it to major positive energy trait (giving you 5 HP per round) and alter the time so that 1,000,000,000,000 years in your godly realm is 1 round in the prime material. Have your cohort sit in your godly realm for that long, gaining all of that HP over that many years. Hope that helps. I'd go crazy, sitting for millions of years in how big was it? 500 cubic feets? space. I hope there is some permanent sleep, later dispelled. Talk about sleeping beauty :)
SigmaJargon 05-23-05, 08:42 AM	That would mean cross-referencing a 3.0 book. I thought they weren't doing that in 3.5.Really? The BoED is riddled with references to the BoVD, for one.
lostone 05-23-05, 09:08 AM	Really? The BoED is riddled with references to the BoVD, for one.I assumed that was a special case, as you can't really write a book about ultimate goodness without referencing evil. :)
Shebnar 05-23-05, 11:18 AM	That would mean cross-referencing a 3.0 book. I thought they weren't doing that in 3.5. PGtF (3.5) has references to the BoVD (3.0) too. Then, according to your argument, a character in 3.5 should stop at level 20, since there is no 3.5 coverage for Epic levels. ;)
lostone 05-23-05, 11:27 AM	There is 3.5 coverage for epic levels, in the SRD. However they don't reference the SRD in the books.
Khan the Destroyer 05-23-05, 02:17 PM	IMHO "becomes a quasi-deity" is just fluff in the text. If the class gets DR0 WotC would refer to Deities and Demigods as they did in the description of the planar dragon's power on pg. 180. No such reference means no DR0 for me. No they wouldn't. Once again those arguing against the Divine Rank of the Dragon Ascendant have no proof, only discrepancy's that they believe point to their opinion that the DA gains no Divine Rank. If there is a blurb before a prestige class that says "Fighters usually take levels in this class." but it doesn't reference the PHB, is it all of a sudden referencing a different type of Fighter? No. It is still referring to the PHB Fighter. Likewise, just because they do not reference the D&D book doesn't mean they are not speaking of the Quasi-Deity from the deities and demigods book. How about: Draconomicon, Page 90, under Dragon Ascendant: "Those who become dragon ascendants quest to transcend the limitations of material existence, rising above all other dragons to become nothing less than deities themselves." So, "nothing less" than a deity sounds like you are at least a deity, right? And again, if you want to argue flavor text, what is the flavor of the name of the class? Dragon Ascendant. Who takes this class? A dragon. And what does he do? He ascends. What is the second word in "quasi-deity"? Deity. So, if you are inclined to believe flavor text, than the Dragon Ascendant becomes a deity. If you would rather go with the RAW, then the dragon becomes a deity. Fine by me. The next point is that all dieties are outsiders. Yeah, minus Tiamat, Bahamut, and Vecna.
wotcwotcworc 06-13-05, 03:23 PM	I can break the entire think. Look at the fortify seed. Look at the spell resistance seed. You can get a negative DC with it. Infinite negative DC + whatever DC is needed to make a spell that can kill all the gods = DC 0. Or: Make a hulking hurler, with infinite strength (using the DC method above). Gate him to the diety's plane. Have him throw the plane at the diety. Or: Use an Iajitsu master and the hive. Charisma to damage, PER DIE. Or: Use a rogue. Have him hide and move silently so well that the gods dont see him. Called shot on the god. Or: Instead of gaining divinity with dragon acendant, use an epic abberation, like the Infernal. They have DR 0.
A Man In Black 06-13-05, 10:54 PM	I can break the entire think. Look at the fortify seed. Look at the spell resistance seed. You can get a negative DC with it. Infinite negative DC + whatever DC is needed to make a spell that can kill all the gods = DC 0. Mystra says, "Hmm, that's an odd spell that guy is making...it does WHAT? Kelemvor, can you deal with this?" Zot. Make a hulking hurler, with infinite strength (using the DC method above). Gate him to the diety's plane. Have him throw the plane at the diety. Or: Use an Iajitsu master and the hive. Charisma to damage, PER DIE. Or: Use a rogue. Have him hide and move silently so well that the gods dont see him. Called shot on the god. All of which are defeated by Supreme Initiative (and the salient divine ability that prevents surprise, among other things.) Instead of gaining divinity with dragon acendant, use an epic abberation, like the Infernal. They have DR 0. This, the divine dragon PrC, and the Illithid Savant seem to be the main ways for getting Divine Rank 0.
Wizard Random 06-13-05, 11:59 PM	Have any of you thought about other deitys helping? I am sure some OTHER diety from another pantheion would be willing to "sheild" you from the other deity's senses.
xcessor 06-14-05, 01:43 AM	this is a leap of logic but... assuming that a diety is supported by thier followers (maybe a need for prayers r rituals) kill all or most of their followers...mass genocide. very very evil and time consuming, but wouldn't be as evil if all/most of the followers were undead. DM's call obivously but the genocide of followers could be a way of weaking the diety before a final assault.
Wizard Random 06-14-05, 12:46 PM	Ah but would that be possible!? Consider: Besides the riffraff who worships a partcular deity and say maybe low lvl classes such as Cleric,Wiz,Fighter etc etc. U have obviusly high level guys. Not to mention those epic level guys who could pose a greater threat than even the deity. Besides while i would consider that as a Legit way of weakening a Deity, most deitys would ....start to care after the loss of that first divine rank. I am thinking MIND BLANK as a protective measure, since not even deitys can Zap the spell, unless they you know, use Shatter Mind Blank. BUT that also assumes they know where you are, when they cast it.
wotcwotcworc 06-15-05, 10:08 AM	Mystra says, "Hmm, that's an odd spell that guy is making...it does WHAT? Kelemvor, can you deal with this?" Zot. It is made instantaneously. It takes 1 day per DC of the spell. Thus, a 0 DC spell takes no time to make. You can do it in steps. Spell 0: Creates your own weave Spell 1: Super ultra invisibility vs divine senses Spell 2: Grants you divine ranks Spell 3: Extends across all planes, kills gods.
Always-Late 06-19-05, 01:10 AM	That one is BS. Period. Oh. Uh. Is your plan to take down the gods a secret? Then Vecna knows.
A Man In Black 06-19-05, 02:03 AM	That one is BS. Period. Oh. Uh. Is your plan to take down the gods a secret? Then Vecna knows. Too bad Vecna isn't in the Realms.
foxylady 06-19-05, 03:04 AM	I 6. Spell Resistance- From a Pseudonatural creature. Instead of an Illithid's SR of 70 at this level, it will be 265. Just to be on the safe side. Don't Pseudonatural creatures have "SR = 2xHD (max 25)". How do you get SR 265?
Zardnaar 06-19-05, 05:35 AM	Too bad Vecna isn't in the Realms. Shar is though.
arcanist supreme 06-19-05, 09:57 AM	I can honestly say that even a demigod is almost impossible for any character to take down. A divine rank of 0 is sufficient to thwart all your attempts, with or without their portfolio sensing abilities. Have u got an idea of their divine immunities? They can take any **** u throw at them without damage. Remember, divine immunities (doesn't apply for Gods of equal divine rank or something to that effect). A mortal doesn't even have ZERO divine rank. Whatever you use, is gonna be useless unless you have some divine investiture of power within you otherwise, it is for nought. Following the rules of F&P, u ain't gonna hurt them AT ALL, be it ur level 2500 or whatever. Divine Rank is outside of character levels. U have NO divine rank, period. Nothing can hurt the God whatever ridiculous MORTAL DAMAGE u can dish out to fellow mortals. Even a God has problem hurting another God (just strictly cuz they are of different Ranks) via spells (unless you are talking about epic weapons that bypass their damage reduction (that is ur almost ONLY bet and u had better make sure u guys win the initiative versus Gods without Supreme Initiative) and that there are many of u that can come together with just THAT many EPIC weapons and bash the hell out of the God before he/she can react (which is already ridiculous). The dragon Ascendent is ur only chance of even becoming divine enuff to hurt a God but remember ur merely Divine Rank 0 (How many Gods have just divine rank 0?). The same difficulty then applies. ONE Divine Rank apart is enuff to completely marginalize anyone who has God Slaying ideas.
Rashomon 06-19-05, 10:20 AM	Learn to spell. Also, look at the ways they mentioned to increase worshipers.
lostone 06-19-05, 12:51 PM	Too bad Vecna isn't in the Realms.Then whatever God of Secrets (Mask?). And since it is an epic spell, regardless of how long it actually takes to make, Mystra would know about it weeks in advance and would be will within her "rights" to smite you simply for having the audacity of creating your own weave and trying to steal her portfolio. And if you want to get technical, a DC of 0 would probably take HALF a day. 0 level spells count for half for a lot of things. I would carry that over to creating epic spells. Actually I'd put a minimum time to create an epic spell (a week minimum sounds good) in my games if it ever became necessary. Of course I'd also have to horribly slay the character that is trying to create epic spells using broken mechanics loopholes to get DC 0 spells which makes the 1 week minimum a completely moot point. :D
wotcwotcworc 06-19-05, 01:07 PM	Then whatever God of Secrets (Mask?). And since it is an epic spell, regardless of how long it actually takes to make, Mystra would know about it weeks in advance and would be will within her "rights" to smite you simply for having the audacity of creating your own weave and trying to steal her portfolio. And if you want to get technical, a DC of 0 would probably take HALF a day. 0 level spells count for half for a lot of things. I would carry that over to creating epic spells. Actually I'd put a minimum time to create an epic spell (a week minimum sounds good) in my games if it ever became necessary. Of course I'd also have to horribly slay the character that is trying to create epic spells using broken mechanics loopholes to get DC 0 spells which makes the 1 week minimum a completely moot point. :D Ad Hoc factor: Special: Mystra has no knowledge of this spell being made or cast: +100000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000 DC.
lostone 06-19-05, 01:13 PM	Ad Hoc factor: Special: Mystra has no knowledge of this spell being made or cast: +100000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000 DC.As DM I would change the "DC" to "d6 backlash damage". :devil: Or I'd give the player the option of not using infinite loopholes I don't agree with.
Fălenganor 06-19-05, 02:10 PM	As DM I would change the "DC" to "d6 backlash damage". :devil: Or I'd give the player the option of not using infinite loopholes I don't agree with. That would be good if you have Hide Life and Masochism going on... Now, regarding the super spell subject, I think creating your own weave is a good idea, even if it works only for you. For the Create-a-Weave spell looks like a good idea to get all seeds and make them permanent(about 2500 DC) and then use the fortify seed to get the DC to 0, taking a temporary(20 hours) 1250 penality to SR if it's possible, but of course, you better get some divine protection/authorization first... And since we're in the realms, there was a guy called Karsus some time ago in Netheril...
lostone 06-19-05, 02:17 PM	And since we're in the realms, there was a guy called Karsus some time ago in Netheril...Unfamiliar with him. Far too many novels to keep up with when real life interferes. :D
Fălenganor 06-19-05, 02:22 PM	Unfamiliar with him. Far too many novels to keep up with when real life interferes. :D Wizard from Netheril, got Mystril killed with a spell to steal her powers, but couldn't control them, this caused the colapse of the Weave and consequently Netheril, I think that's in FR campaign setting. And well, I might have misspelled the name... EDIT: Mystril actually sacrificed herself to save the collapsing weave.
foxylady 06-19-05, 06:59 PM	A divine rank of 0 is sufficient to thwart all your attempts, with or without their portfolio sensing abilities. Have u got an idea of their divine immunities? Actually, DR 0 beings don't get most divine immunities. DR 0 mostly just gets you eternal youth and no need to eat, sleep, or breathe.
wotcwotcworc 06-19-05, 08:31 PM	That would be good if you have Hide Life and Masochism going on... Now, regarding the super spell subject, I think creating your own weave is a good idea, even if it works only for you. For the Create-a-Weave spell looks like a good idea to get all seeds and make them permanent(about 2500 DC) and then use the fortify seed to get the DC to 0, taking a temporary(20 hours) 1250 penality to SR if it's possible, but of course, you better get some divine protection/authorization first... And since we're in the realms, there was a guy called Karsus some time ago in Netheril... Actually, according to PGtF, you can simply be a psion. Mystra has no knowledge of epic powers. Psions do not depend on the weave.
Fălenganor 06-19-05, 08:39 PM	Yes, but if you include psionics, you'll probably be seeing some psionic gods to make matters worst...
wotcwotcworc 06-19-05, 10:46 PM	Psionics dosent seem something that would mesh well with divine beings. Edit: PGtF doesnt list any psionic gods or goddesses.
lostone 06-20-05, 07:52 AM	Not to mention that if you use the Psionics and Magic are the same (transparency?) rule which is the default rule now, then psionics probably DO rely on the weave in FR.
wotcwotcworc 06-20-05, 11:24 AM	Not to mention that if you use the Psionics and Magic are the same (transparency?) rule which is the default rule now, then psionics probably DO rely on the weave in FR. PGtF says they do not.
lostone 06-20-05, 11:35 AM	PGtF says they do not.Ok.
Tempest Stormwind 06-20-05, 11:51 AM	People overuse transparency on this forum, which is startling considering how much we rely on the rules as written. When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. So, SR/PR is identical, dispel effects work on both, detection effects work on both (though spellcraft and sicraft are not), and -- by default -- antimagic/dead magic affects psionics. The PGtF tells us that even though psionics are not dependent on the Weave (as a psionic character effectively uses his or her mind and patterns of bioenergy as a weave), the manifestations are still magical in nature -- that is, it will be disrupted by dead magic/antimagic. (Note that the PGtF uses the word "transparent" incorrectly -- magic and psionics are fully transparent in Faerun. It says they are not, and then goes on to list all the effects as if they were transparent.)
arcanist supreme 06-20-05, 12:07 PM	Actually, DR 0 beings don't get most divine immunities. DR 0 mostly just gets you eternal youth and no need to eat, sleep, or breathe. Here is a quote from Faiths and Pantheons: Page 5, Divine Rank is what sets deities and mortals apart. Even deities with DR 0 are far superior to mortals in their powers and abilities. page 6, Divine Characteristics ... Immunities ... Deities have the following immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is of equal or higher rank: 1. Transmutation 2. Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage 3. Mind-effecting Effects 4. Energy Immunity DR >=1 are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration. DR >=6, immune to effects that imprison or banish them, unless attacker is of equal or higher divine rank. It is subject to interpretation and I may have interpret incorrectly. But from my perspective, it seems to me the only thing that can harm another deity in all the above is another deity. DR 0 is also a deity, albeit quasi, and has those immunities. Just that they can be easily stamped out by other deities (since most of their immunities don't apply to higher DR Gods), but not mortals. Of coz, I may be wrong and in that case, perhaps a DR 1 deity is already more than a challenge for most mortals. Even the lengendary Iolaum would find a DR1 deity with 20 character levels (I don't think such a "low level deity" exist), challenging given their divine immunities (applicable only to other Gods challenging them). U get my drift. The DR thingy exist outside of the CR concept. It is a totally different scale. If u wanna take down the Gods with ECL 60, I suggest u take sides with one God and be his/her mortal agent to eradicate in the mortal realms (the other God's followers). Taking down mortal followers of that God to be eliminated at ECL 60 should be very easy. U are as far beyond those mortals as a DR1 God is beyond u. Thereafter, beware of the God whom u allied with, he/she wld very happily choose to take u out thereafter (ur simply too dangerous).
wotcwotcworc 06-20-05, 03:26 PM	Ur Priest might be another thing to look at. Can they steal SDA?
Quenditar 06-20-05, 03:54 PM	I haven't read this whole thread, but can you get your hands on some spelljammers, and is Vecna or Hiddukel on speaking terms with Mystra? Athas or Eberron, without any gods paying attention to what you're doing, would be even better - if you can figure out a way to get there and back.
foxylady 06-20-05, 04:30 PM	Deities have the following immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is of equal or higher rank: 1. Transmutation 2. Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage 3. Mind-effecting Effects 4. Energy Immunity #1 is immunity to shape-altering effects (polymorph, petrification), not all transmutation effects. #4 is Fire Resistance 5+DR (resistance 5 for DR 0 entities), not immunity to all energy effects. All from the SRD. Remember, DR 0 entities still fail saving throws on a 1, have no significant immunities to hit point damage of any kind, have no divine bonus to AC, saves, and checks, have no salient divine abilities, have no special sensory abilities, and are still affected by the usual things that kill high level characters: poison, death effects, and disintegration. The only real advantage a DR 0 character has over an epic mortal is maximum HP per HD, but is otherwise (IMO) not significantly harder to kill than said mortal.
Lilt 06-20-05, 05:09 PM	God of death will know he's going to die a year or so beforehand? Keep him unconcious for a while before you kill him outright. Attack mystra whilst using the shadow weave. (will this work?) Have your power base on another cosmology where you are not prevented from ascending to godhood. Persuade the laidy of pain to do itby telling her that the gods there worship her.
arcanist supreme 06-20-05, 11:13 PM	#1 is immunity to shape-altering effects (polymorph, petrification), not all transmutation effects. #4 is Fire Resistance 5+DR (resistance 5 for DR 0 entities), not immunity to all energy effects. All from the SRD. Remember, DR 0 entities still fail saving throws on a 1, have no significant immunities to hit point damage of any kind, have no divine bonus to AC, saves, and checks, have no salient divine abilities, have no special sensory abilities, and are still affected by the usual things that kill high level characters: poison, death effects, and disintegration. The only real advantage a DR 0 character has over an epic mortal is maximum HP per HD, but is otherwise (IMO) not significantly harder to kill than said mortal. Yes, I have checked already the books. I didn't list out the entire Transmutation list but I also acknowledged that for the DR 0, they may not be all that divine but they are already outside the league of the challengers. I also mention DR 1 as a more equitable challenge. Even the lowest of the low true Gods would be a serious challenge since they have more of the immunities. Otherwise, if they really want challenge, they can just try a DR 6. That alone is hell for them. DR 0-5 is a possible IF AND ONLY IF you have a bunch of EPIC creatures taking >+4 weapons and doing extreme damage to them and Spells (after they fail their save) that can actually hurt and bypass their Divine Immunities (by mortals), SR AND damage reduction thereafter. I don't know how Myrkul, Bane, Bhaal did it in the past but they sure have some divine sponsorship. Otherwise, I would reckon it is just flavor in the tales. Killing and seizing the Divine Spark of One of the Seven Lost Gods would at best gain "a" spark. Perhaps they were so lucky and seized the spark of a Dead God (it is unconscious anyway, kill it twice) and fortunately, they need not slug it out with Jergal (his non-divine minions in hell may be, should be easy since they are EPIC and perhaps quasi-deities DR 0) and Jergal abdicated his portfolios and they got their raised divine ranks. It is nigh impossible to challenge a God and win openly, it seems. Even for Finder vs Moander (the latter is still quite DEAD) for him to seize "a" divine spark. Killing a God under new rules (post TOT) is akin to slaying ALL their worshippers (don't defile Nature please, you don't want Chauntea to come after you, if she slays you, you stay (very) dead) as super powerful mortals (aka God among Men). As ECL 60, killing a few hundred to a few thousand wordshippers of a DR 0-5 God is definitely easier than challenging the Divine Entity itself. Make it fast though (I believe it is possible, you are, after all, at ECL 60, a God among men (and an entire party at that too).
lostone 06-21-05, 10:51 AM	God of death will know he's going to die a year or so beforehand? Keep him unconcious for a while before you kill him outright.How do you propose a mortal go about this? Aren't gods immune to effects that would keep them unconscious? A god of Death would probably be DR 10+.
Wizard Random 07-09-05, 07:00 PM	Hey everbody i think i have it figured out. I have a character idea for 60 lvls, Human as the start race, and with no Race or subtype altering templates added on. I will be puting it together and have it ready in a day or two, its ognna be awesome, the best part is it doesnt rely on the weave, Can function compeltly without magic items,(they just make him better) and cannot be dected by divine presence. Now i am still a little shaky on the last claim but togrther with a couple of my freinds i think we will make this work. Stay turned for more Page turning action next week on CO Ranger!!!!!! :eek: :P
Wizard Random 07-09-05, 07:02 PM	Also the way he/she will be set up he can MOST defiently 1 round or better a Forgotten realm deity, and once i work the combat round by round could probaly take them ALL on at once. No Dragon magazine will be used or hurt in the making of this character, all Straight Dnd books on this one. I am also a part of P.A.D.R. ( Players agianst Divne Ranks) as my guy will not be Divine himself. As i said before Stay tuned
Lokiyn 07-09-05, 10:19 PM	i'm only up to page two on this thread but it reminded me of an old post i had before the board reorganization about destroying the world as a level 15 character. so here we go. All we need for this is a level 20 ish wizard with a significant amount of built up exp say 21k. For items we need a Ring of three wishes Rods of immovibility (say 20 ea.) Necklace of adaptation. Bag of Holding. filled with lumber,nails, hammers and ropes Thats all for the items For needed spells we need. Wall of force or prismatic sphere and permenancy. first act. is to memorize equal numbers of wall of force and permenancy. with 21 exp we can permenancy 8 walls of force. Now wish 1 use the transport function of wish to wish yourself exactly where the center of toril will be in 2 years. (that eliminates foreknowledge tipping a diety off to you up to a rank 73 diety) Immediatly click a rod of immovability so you can mark your space. Use the second wish to wish for a band of light that traces the center of torils path for one mile in either direction. (not exactly in the description but certainly less powerfull than the massive teleport you just did.) Now using a fly spell for mobiliy follow the band 10 ft or so and click the second Rod of immovabilty. Now Lay down lumber and start building scaffolds. Going perpendicular to the line of travel and making 5ft wide platforms on top of each other with 11 ft in between. On each platform cast wall of force and permenacy it so that you have 7 walls of force that are facing the path of travel. Paint a big smily face on it. Dismantle all the building materials and use the last wish to go to the location where the impact will occur in ~two years. Now option A is to leave it like that and leave via the plane of shadows to another plane. Option B is to place another wall of force at the impact point and permenancy it. Option A results in the momentum of the planet being used to punch a large hole in it all the way to the core at insane speed. (the earth goes about 30,000 miles per hour relative to the sun i believe (or is it higher?)) Option B results in the planet comming to a near instant halt. Since a wall of force is immune to physical damage and cannot be moved once set in place....... two immovable objects slamming into each other and immune to damage...... then let inertia take over. Or you can do it with the prismatic sphere and simply disintegrate a hole through the planet and out the other side. In that case i'd get more wishes to place spheres in multiple strike times to ensure the job is done properly. Or a psion with large quantities of quinntessence could remove dieties from the time stream with some lucky teleporting bend realities. oh and isn't it that mystra controls the weave rather than generates it? you know keeps it even and working properly otherwise it pools in places and creates wild magic zones and antimagic zones? If we had time to go to athas i want to develop and epic athasian defiler spell ;)
Shinzon 07-09-05, 11:43 PM	The portfolio basically represents the fact that a god is a manifestation/representation of a particular aspect of reality. So if a deity has Magic as part of it's portfolio, then any event, item, creature or thing (etc) that is related to magic would fall under the influence of that deity's portfolio. I may not be exactly right on this, as I don't even own any of the books that deal with deities. Making deals with deities to get their aid in killing other deities might work, but I doubt they'd be willing to help you if they figured out that you were planning to exterminate them all. :P There is 1 other entity to take into consideration AO the over god. He watches over the pantheon to ensure a balance is maintained so even IF a party managed to kill 1 God & survive you will have earned his attention as he has reacted whenever any God has been killed or a new one needs to be made. That said you could attempt to ask him if he wants any taken care of be seeing as he can do that with a thought he probly won't even listen to you...
Wizard Random 07-10-05, 06:38 AM	There is 1 other entity to take into consideration AO the over god. He watches over the pantheon to ensure a balance is maintained so even IF a party managed to kill 1 God & survive you will have earned his attention as he has reacted whenever any God has been killed or a new one needs to be made. That said you could attempt to ask him if he wants any taken care of be seeing as he can do that with a thought he probly won't even listen to you... Remeber that this is just a challenge as to what a party or even a single character can do in say a grudge match type fight, we are not bringing in NPC's that will have nothing to do with the fight. So even if AO wanted to do something the Dungeon Master types in /slay@Ao and Ao puffs into nothingness :) And remeber as a DM we have Alter Stat and Create Random NPC these ablitys are not be underlooked
Wizard Random 07-13-05, 12:21 AM	Alright I understand that the thread was started with a time limit, while reading back i discovered that this limit has expired i still hope to have this be useful to people. Also as of now i am not worrying about GP limits because the Gp for a 60th lvl character is WAY to much to effectivly use, so i just went shopping for items. :P This is a little shaky, as i dont know how to put my creation into format like so many others, but bear with me and please pick this apart to make it work should something not make sense. Also i am Sorry for crappy spelling Ok here is the run down Human Base, Rouge 20,Ninja 1, Theif acrobat 5, Invisable Blade 5, Ninja of the Creasent Moon 10, Pious Templar 1,Shadow Dancer 1, Paragon 15 ( they do not have to be taken in this order) Starting stats (rolled) Str14 Dex18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis13 Cha 14 After racial Adjusts....oh right NOTHING and add paragon on top they become Str 29 Dex 33 Con 29 Int 31 Wis28 Cha 14 Stick on the 20 stat increaes from levels like this--- 10 into dex 5 into wis and 5 into str. You of course will want all the +5 tomes and all the +12 epi magic items. Okay feats that u NEED, Quick Draw, Deflect arrows,Weapon focus (kukri),Far shot,Point blank shot, True beliver,Combat refelxs,Dodge, Mobility, ( have any of you ever noticed the feat reqs for invis blade,???? it makes no SENSE) With human, and 1-20 lvl feats u have EXACLY enough to get these feats, now with ur 3 feats from paragon u want, Darkstalker, Mage Slayer, Perice Magical Protection Now going from 21-60 nets u 21 epic feats or 19 depending on how you throw in rouge lvls, This agian is way to much and I didnt really know what to do with like 7 of them, so i just picked whatever, the epic feats you have to have are: Epic Dodge,Exceptinal Defelction,Infinate deflection, Lingering dmg, Reflect arrows,Sneak attack of oppritunity, Supioeior Iniative, and Great fort,ref,and will. Also dont forget Dexerous For and will as this CAN come in handy. (how do you qualify for the monk feats w/out improved unarmed strike KEEP READING) Now i tossed in Epic Skill Focus Hide and M. Silently and i still had a couple left. The rouge ablities you want are this Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind, and Skill Mastery, (by the time i took skill mastery i had a +22 int bonus from magic items and the like so basically ALL my skills were Auto 10's) You get defensive roll and improved evasion and the rest from class lvls, At the end you get a +19d6 Sneak Attack, and with Weapon enchaments you get +21 (complete Adventurer) Also dont forget to add in the Paragon +13 bonus for Sneak attack dmg as Sneak attack is a Special attack. NOW HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART Do any of you REMEBER Grafts? The Liberas Mortis,Feind folio,and Lords of Madness have some REALLY nice grafts. One of the important ones is the Mind flayer one that lets you burrow through solid rock and give you natural attacks, (see i told you MONK feats) The ones i got were::::: Skum Tail,Plated Skin,Thrid Eye,Charming eye,Clawed Arm( the armt hat holds the Kukir gets +4 str) Fast Leg, Antenna Graft,Climbing legs,Scaly Skin,Flexiable Spine,Extended Legs, Healing blood,Sithlar bones, Sithlar heart, Sithlar Muscles,Sithlar tendons, Mind blast Relay(becauses its fun and you know it) and Burrowing Claws, and Feathered Wings. This nets you (with Paragon and boots of swiftness) Land spd 210 Burrow spd 150 Climb speed 120(even on cealings) Fly 400 Perfect ( it can go higher up to 14,400 is as high as me and my freinds have got it, and you get perfect from spending epic feats on the non-epic flying feats) and Swim 260 While these numbers can go higher this makes this Character Unstoppable in ALL enviroments. :cool: Now by this time with magic items and graft bonus's and other goodys you get Str 55 Dex63 Con 54 Int 51 Wis 51 Cha 52 Now with Getting max Hp+Con bonus+ paragon bounus you should have 2278 Hp with a Ac of 156 Your attacks with a +10 Abyssal Blood Iron(it can be made out of anyhting but we settled on blood iron cause of the 2 effects it gives) Maiming,Collsion,Keen,Mage Bane, Bane:Outsider,Viscous, and that Sneak ttack one, Also dont forget the weapon enhancments from the DMG II the ones that are +2k for a extra 2d6 flavor dmg. should be aganst a deity +85/+79/+73/+67(+85) <--Haste Now how do you get into battle with one hmmmmm This is the BIG question, Now with ALL Magic items you can possbily get almost all feats and class ablitys u have acess too, you end up with a +175 on Hide and Move silently, Always have concelamnet, can hide in plain sight, AND move at full speed at no penalty, and is ALWAYS SNEAKY, means you can come up to ANY deity in the game and Shiv them to death, Assuming you Feint before Every attack you make, with a+129 bonus to the roll and takeing 10 on ALL ur skills means the deitys never gain their dex to Their Ac, And along with Perice Magical Protectiona and Perice magical concealment they dont even get magic bonus aganst you, ALSO dont forget about the Spell that lets you ignore armor to ac, and CANNOT find you, Thisis also augmented by having a Darkness Spell permently cast on you, While having a Hybrid Starmantle cloak so the darkness and light spells cancel themselves out, The point of the Starmantle cloak with other ablites added on (Dmg pg 284-285 it makes the item cost 1.5 times the ammout and you add Another item of the same type into one) is that with Improved evasion and the Starmantle cloaks ablity of making a Dc 15 reflex save to take HALF dmg from a magic weapon attack Amzazing Awesome goodness, You are immune to weapon dmg Period, And of course you can roll a Nat 1, but that is that Lucky swords are for :) :) :), First off Even if the Deitys Can MANAGE to find you and score a hit on you you simply avoid all dmg, and even if they hit you, you can epic dodge. Now at this point if this is not maing sense to you, i spent some of my Epic Feats on Non-Epic feats as i felt it was a good trade off, With the Anti Mage feats( Mage Slayer etc etc) you take a hit to your caster lvl but get that back with intrest from paragon, Not only does this guy have fast ehaling but has epic Damage reduction and blindsight and temorsense, + others. Now one of the problms i have with this guy is his Low Saves, He only has Fort+59 Ref+67 Will+65 This is Helped out By Mettle and Improved evasion::: This is of course augmented from magical items, Now Assuming the Deity could pinpoint your location ( or at least guess the square your in) he can theopritycaly hit you with a area effect, however with improved evasion and a uber high reflex save i find this unlikley. Also another thing i noticed is this guy WITH sneak attack and the Repeat sneak attack from lingering dmg can only bust out around 1k dmg a turn, while this hurts most deitys it doesnt One Round them, so i am presented with the problem of how to kill them in one round. Now someone asked about can Avatars make a Differnce in this fight, No they cannot, they are simply too weak to even contribute to the fight except to lag down combat. Now lets REALLY talk about items Everything this guy cannot do himself he can do with a +123 Use Magic Device check or 133 since he can take 10 on it, he simply buys the Scrolls, and/or wands of whatever he needs, Also here is a Run down of the equips i bought for him, All items listed here are hybrid items except for the ones i couldnt find something to put together. NOTE SOME ITEMS ARE ABBERVIATED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT GLOVES: Gloves of Epic Dex +12,Gloves of Storing AMMULETS/PREIPETS: Ammy of Nat Armor +10 Epic Wisdom+12,Priepiet of wound closure,Proof Aganst Posion,Necklace of Adaption,Ammy of nondetection Caster lvl 80( yes 80) Ammy of Retribution. ROBES/CLOAKS: Epic CHA+12 Mantle of Stealth,Starmantle Cloak, BOOTS: Boots of swiftness BRACERS::::: Bracers of Epic Armor +16, with armor special qualities Soul Fire and Heavy Fortifacation, With Brackers of Relentless Might tossed in, Now this defensive item is his mainstay, their are tons of more upgrades to put on it but i didnt feel like flipping in books for it, these enchanments are all he REALLY needs. VEST: Epic Res+10 HEADBAND/HELM: Headband of Epic INT+12 BELT: Monks RING 1: Ring of universal elemenl immunity,Ring of Spell battle RING 2: Protection +10 Freedom of Movment,Spell battle Now as i mentioned up above there are TONS more to equip and or add on to preexisting, i used the above items because i am lazy and did not feel like looking through all the books we have. I felt that the above items were good enough Now i did a practice battle between Mystra.Tempus,Tyr, and Mask My freinds had 1 hour or so to learn the deitys ablites and what they had at thei dispole, It ended up taking 19 turns because of the damn avatars kept geting in the way, but we did the battle in a Arena type setting with No teleporting in or out, cept teleporting around was ok, The battlefeild was 80x80 and had terrain types and buildings in the way, it was pretty cool to test it out, the only one who almost SAW me was Mystra but she couldnt bypass the Dc 91 Caster lvl check to beat my non-detection. The funny thing is that Maslw as the first to drop, the God of Rouge being taken out by a Ninja is pretty funny when you think about it. Also i was stuck in a Anti-Magic field for 1 round, It didnt Matter ;() After looking at ALL of the SDA's that the deitys have the only one i did not have a answer for was the one where if you are a mortal you die when u get close to him b/c of the deitys aura. But with a Diplomancy of 128 and with taking a 10 is 138 i am SURE you could convince a Deity to make you a proxy untill you take the deity with the SDA in question ,out. All your skills will be in the +100's and you can take 10 on all of them, I know this was a challange to take out the ENTIRE pantion with a Paty of 4 people, but i feel that this guy by himself can do it just fine. So what do you think
Wizard Random 07-13-05, 12:32 AM	Also remeber almost Everything SDA's included require they Target you with the effect, If they cannot find you they cannot target you, Also Do NOT forget about Eqpic Skill usage, as it helped out ALOT in that practice fight i had. Now remeber your ABlity to hide Anywhere and being able to Bluff as a free action makes sure you are never NOT hiding, one of the funny parts of my test battle was when I tossed +6 daggers from 20 feet away using the sniping shot, ablity on Hide
SigmaJargon 07-13-05, 01:20 AM	Wizard, I love the effort you are putting into this, but could you please, please send a little time to correct your grammar or spell words correctly? Just cut and paste your post into Microsoft Word, or get the newest version of the Google Toolbar with the spell checker, or something. As is, my eyes bleed every time I read one of your posts. Just a few technical difficulties to point out, as well. The paragon template is +15 LA, so you only have 45 HD, or only 11 stat points to distribute, rather than 15 (your figure of 20 is completely off in the first place). As you didn't go into the epic progession of any of your classes, you only have 9 epic feats, not 21. Also, having natural attacks is not the same as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Natural attacks are not monk weapons, and even if they were, simply possessing them would not give you the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Proficiency? Yes. Feats associated with the attack form? No. No matter how sneaky you are, some deities will never be subject to your sneak attack as long as you remain mortal. Check out the battlesense SDA. You also might want to note the Remote Sensing ability of deities, which percieves everything within a certain area, and is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells. Hiding from a deity is a tough business, and I'm frankly not sure it can be accomplished even against a lowly rank 1 deity.
Wizard Random 07-13-05, 01:41 AM	If i read my rules right, Having a natural attack simlutaes the improved unarmed attack feat and allows you to use your natrual attack for class reqs. Yes i did do epic progression the last 12 lvls of rouge was epic, plus the free feats for every 3 lvls = lots of epic feats, and i belive i swapped out 1 or 2 special ablities for a bonus feat, as i said i dont know how to format my text into little slidder bars and such. It doesnt matter if the deity is subject to my sneak attack dmg, Like venca for example, you still do around 80 dmg per hit without Sneak attack. Doesnt matter if they can Precive my area as they still have to "spot me" Also what are you talkign about with paragon, assuming it is +15 to lvl as i thought with no Hd, makes a Rouge 20+15 from paragon+5 from invis balde+5 from theif acro and +10 from crescent moon and shadow 1,templar 1 and nija one actually gives me 58 out of 60 lvls used. And i said i was sorry for spelling, in the beginging.
Wizard Random 07-13-05, 01:43 AM	Only thing i cant really get past is the portfolio sense, cept that should only come into play DURING a actual Game, Just sticking a party of 4 vs the gods, means that portfolo sense never comes into play
Interested2 12-01-05, 06:02 PM	Bump for save-age.
Graah 12-02-05, 01:49 AM	Here's a way to gain true Divine Rank 0: worship Tyr in Faerűn, achieve 20th level, then die very heroically and become an Einherjar (found in Deities and Demigods). All the example Einherjar are single class, but it's probably not a requirement. :cool: Then you still have 40 levels to play with.
Tavi 07-26-06, 08:13 AM	Supreme initiative won't work if you cought a deity flat footed :))))