Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wymark 11-30-06, 04:56 PM	The first time I read the frenzied berserker class i realized its potential. The first time I played it one secession later it was banned. Since then I have played in other games, some that allow it other that don't. Can any melee build keep up with the damage progression? Do any get close?
EldonG 11-30-06, 05:13 PM	Yeah. Some can. Mind ya, they tend ta get rather esoteric an' twisted, but yeah. The beauty of the FrB is...all ya gotta do is lead-in a few Brb lvls, and pick not horrible feats.
Tempest Stormwind 11-30-06, 05:16 PM	The first time I read the frenzied berserker class i realized its potential. The first time I played it one secession later it was banned. Since then I have played in other games, some that allow it other that don't. Can any melee build keep up with the damage progression? Do any get close? 1) There's more to melee than damage output. The FB may be king (or at least in the royal court) of melee damage, but that doesn't mean he's the best choice for melee characters. 2) The FB comes with a hair trigger and a blast radius. Not every team likes having this. I actually explained the FB to my brother as "Poke him, and he flips out and kills the wizard." 3) A well-built dervish or Revenant Blade (or combination thereof) can match or exceed a frenzied berserker's damage output, though it takes a bit of finesse. I should note that the Revenant Blade can ALSO be combined with the FB, although this might not be wise given that it's an elf-only PrC and elves lack the Constitution for long rages/frenzies. 4) The Tome of Battle pretty much rewrote the book on how melee should work. A good warblade, swordsage, or crusader should be able to match or exceed a frenzied berserker and STILL have options available, without the whole "he flips out and kills the wizard" thing. (In particular, look to Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and Tiger Claw for raw damage output.) In a word, yes.
The_Mad_Linguist 11-30-06, 05:37 PM	Frenzied Berserkers can't use dex-based skills while in a frenzy. A first level spell, Grease, forces a balance check to move. Other melee classes don't have this problem.
EldonG 11-30-06, 05:42 PM	Frenzied Berserkers can't use dex-based skills while in a frenzy. A first level spell, Grease, forces a balance check to move. Other melee classes don't have this problem. Yeah...they do have a (double handful?) few drawbacks.
Wymark 11-30-06, 05:58 PM	A dervish and his light scimitars can out damage a frenzied berserker? Could you please explain this.
wolfie-kun 11-30-06, 06:18 PM	A dervish and his light scimitars can out damage a frenzied berserker? Could you please explain this. When you're hitting ten or more times per round with good damage bonuses, it's not very tough.
Dave965 11-30-06, 06:33 PM	I don't know....I've been working on a new melee type for a level 22 epic gestalt campaign, and have been torn between dervish and fb for a while now.....I just can't seem to come up with a dervish build that even comes close to what I can get with a fb....though I think the dervish would be easier for my dm to tolerate than the fb....
Necromas 11-30-06, 06:57 PM	A level 20 knight might be able to simply outlast the frezerker with enough charges of the delaying death thing.
PhaedrusXY 11-30-06, 07:33 PM	Unless you're talking about a charger FB build, a TWF rogue can often match or outdamage a FB against crit-vulnerable targets (specifics will vary with builds, of course). A well-built psychic warrior should be able to keep up, also, I think.
Seerow 11-30-06, 07:43 PM	Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish10/Revenant Blade5 That should beat the FB handily enough. You're looking at 8 or so attacks every round, each dealing two-handed power attack damage, and once per day pulling out 16 attacks at the same damage. Hell, you can even take a note from the FB UberCharger's book, and use Thousand Cuts as part of a charge with an item of lion's charge. Can the FBs double power attack ratio beat a full 16 attacks using all of the same other tricks?
nastynate 11-30-06, 09:04 PM	Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish10/Revenant Blade5 That should beat the FB handily enough. You're looking at 8 or so attacks every round, each dealing two-handed power attack damage, and once per day pulling out 16 attacks at the same damage. Hell, you can even take a note from the FB UberCharger's book, and use Thousand Cuts as part of a charge with an item of lion's charge. Can the FBs double power attack ratio beat a full 16 attacks using all of the same other tricks? Of course this assumes it's not paired against a ranger 2/fighter2/barbarian1/revenant blade5/frenzied berserker10.
skydragonknight 11-30-06, 09:24 PM	1) 2) The FB comes with a hair trigger and a blast radius. Not every team likes having this. I actually explained the FB to my brother as "Poke him, and he flips out and kills the wizard." Hmm. Do Frenzied Berserkers fight ALL the time and, more importantly, are they mammals? :plotting:
Think0028 11-30-06, 09:39 PM	Hmm. Do Frenzied Berserkers fight ALL the time and, more importantly, are they mammals? :plotting: 1) When they activate Frenzy, they just keep on going till they're out or succeed on a will save after everything's dead. 2) I hope they are. Actually, are there any LA +0 races who aren't mammals? Maybe the Neraph.
nastynate 11-30-06, 09:42 PM	Hmm. Do Frenzied Berserkers fight ALL the time and, more importantly, are they mammals? :plotting: Good questions...I think they might just have rabies 2) I hope they are. Actually, are there any LA +0 races who aren't mammals? Maybe the Neraph. Elan
cerberuspuppy 11-30-06, 09:49 PM	...at killing the rest of the party? No. Frenzied Berserker is banned in all games I play, and for good reasons. I would never allow it for any alignment other than Chaotic Evil (clear wanton disregard for everyone's life), and even for a villain it's not worth it. For as long as such a villain would last, a straight up Barbarian will do just fine.
GhostStepper 11-30-06, 09:53 PM	Pretty sure warforged arent mammals. And juggzerkers are pretty fun (and frustrating for the DM). I whipped up a pretty standard stormguard warrior warblade build last night that can do well over 2890 in damage every other round and thats with no multiclassing and using only one maneuver. And there are plenty of ways to up that amount.
Phoenix00 11-30-06, 09:54 PM	A Initiator/Jade Phoenix Mage who focuses on melee and forgets about arcane besides the bare min requirement of 2nd lvl spells will be able to crank out the damage due to wraithstrike and power attack. Additionally you can get up to 9th level manuevers and 5th lvl spells thus have several options.
Momar 11-30-06, 09:58 PM	Hmm. Do Frenzied Berserkers fight ALL the time and, more importantly, are they mammals? :plotting: I think you have something here. Frenzied Berserkers, ninjas in disguise.
skydragonknight 11-30-06, 10:03 PM	I think you have something here. Frenzied Berserkers, ninjas in disguise. Yes they are, Momar. :incog: Glad someone got the reference. :D
stimpydoda 11-30-06, 10:18 PM	I don't enough time to give you all of the tricks that makes the FB way better than the rest. A dervish does get a lot of attacks, once per day.....and you assume all of those hit and won't face dr. Even still, I dont know if the numbers would be better. The main thing I want to confront is the danger of having a frenzied beserker in the party. A FB's main interest is battle. This does not make them chaotic evil or evil. Neutral works best. Also, there are tons of ways to keep a FB in check. Besides the will save, there's hold person, calm emotions, tons and tons of spells to keep them in line. I went through a dungeon delve an entire day and only entered a frenzy twice, once by choice. They make excellent characters and a DM should not be afraid of them. Face it as a challenge. You could always have a flying boss or something with dominate. Good times.
ninjarabbit 11-30-06, 10:24 PM	A melee gish should have no problems keeping up with a FB damage-wise
Eilrahc 11-30-06, 10:24 PM	Enough levels of Monk into Reaping Mauler, take the right feats and items, maybe a few maneuvers from ToB, you can out grapple the FB for 3 rounds and then run circles around it keeping it occupied until the rage wears out. The FB is now dead.
LogicNinja 11-30-06, 10:26 PM	I think you have something here. Frenzied Berserkers, ninjas in disguise. No, no--berskerers are proto-ninjas. I had a discussion about this with a friend, actually. Nentuaby: If Ninjas were known to Cuchulain? Cuchulain woulda been a ninja. Fear the Kittens: He was a berserker, berserkers can't be ninjas. Nentuaby: ... Max. What do berserkers do? Nentuaby: They flip out and kill people. Fear the Kittens: ...they don't flip out. They go raaagh and kill people. Fear the Kittens: Plus, they do not fight ALL the time! Just when angry. Nentuaby: That's because they haven't been introduced to ninjadom yet. Fear the Kittens: Hmm. Nentuaby: They're proto-ninja. Only 75% sweet.
Rhonin the Big 11-30-06, 10:52 PM	I had a PvP fight between me and my good buddy Zaxter. He was a Water Orc frenzied berserker with 64 strength while Mountain Raging and frenzying (he had 4 levels in Eye of Gruumsh and 3 levels in Goliath Stoneblessed before barbarian). I was a swashbuckler3/fighter2/swordsage2/duelist8/tempest5 with improved combat expertise, shadowblade, improved two-weapon fighting, bounding assault and rapid blitz. He could kill me on a single hit from a charge, but he could NOT hit me. I kept on spring attacking getting 4 attacks on every spring, I also had dual souldrinking enhancements on my sais but thats beside the point. A Frenzied Berserker can definitely be beaten in melee, but when a single hit at the end of a charge deals an average of 524 damage it is very hard to beat those numbers. The only thing I could think of is an optimized Stormguard Warrior build, which will be my next betatest against Vreejal the Psycho! And I've said this on another Frenzied Berserker thread, the best thing to adventure with a FB is a druid with a Vow of Peace. The Vow of Peace radiates a persistent calm emotions effect with no save, so all you gotta do is walk upto the FB and he'll calm down.
skydragonknight 11-30-06, 10:56 PM	No, no--berskerers are proto-ninjas. I had a discussion about this with a friend, actually. Indeed. I bow to your Ninja Logic, LogicNinja.
ChristopherGroves 11-30-06, 11:24 PM	There's always the knight / whatever Robilars-gambit move and I hit you / don't move and I hit you controllers. And trippers / chain monkeys.
Katash 11-30-06, 11:37 PM	Vow of Peace. Didn't think of that. I had my FB take Righteous Wrath and houseruled it to work for frenzy. Figured it was kinda like when Fyodor got control of his rages. I am basically using a version of Fyodor in my game Barb6/FB4/BW10 and yes he kicks butt in simple Melle (can even grapple a dragon when in Dire Bear form and has improved Grapple) but the build is simple in gameplay (if you like that) and can be (and has been before he got Righteous Wrath) whupped by our groups Dervish, Warblade/Mast or Nine and I'd be game to put ANY of our groups chars in an area against him. Fun, but lacks versatility and sorry but as pointed out the Frenzy IS manageable.:D
kilroo 11-30-06, 11:49 PM	...Apply the Amphibious template to any qualified LA +0 race. Instant non-mammal. Unless D&D allows for amphibious mammals...which wouldn't surprise me...but since I'm unaware of any D&D mechanic that depends on whether something is a mammal...
Optimator 12-01-06, 12:45 AM	So... where could one find a generic Stormguard Warrior Warblade on these forums? :)
tsuyoshikentsu 12-01-06, 12:56 AM	...Apply the Amphibious template to any qualified LA +0 race. Instant non-mammal. Unless D&D allows for amphibious mammals...which wouldn't surprise me...but since I'm unaware of any D&D mechanic that depends on whether something is a mammal...It's called a platypus.
OkamiGrif 12-01-06, 12:58 AM	if you really want a melee machine of death, warforged warhulk, or depending on the dm (only one that let me do it was running an epic campaign) warforged charger warhulk..... Lose all ranks in wis, cha, int based skills save for intimidate, and no base attack (easily fixed with the skillful wpn enhancement) but +2 permanent str every level for 10 levels. not to mention the rock hurling and the mighty swing, throw in hurling charge for fun. Large sized warforged throwing an enormous boulder, then hitting everything in a 15-30 ft area (depends on size of the spiked chain you use, ala monkeygripping) with the possible benefit of a full attack action via some kind of pounce or lions charge. Out of combat, hes a bit clumsy and unskilled, but few would anger him once they see him on the field
GhostStepper 12-01-06, 01:01 AM	Ive been considering the warforged charger warhulk lately and i just cant see it doing near as much damage as a decent FB build since it cant get a huge power attack bonus.
sleepydeath 12-01-06, 10:20 AM	elusive target ftw?
zarzak 12-01-06, 12:03 PM	It's called a platypus. <3 Platypus. There needs to be a platypus icon here. :coolcthul
OkamiGrif 12-01-06, 12:37 PM	straight numbers the warhulk wont beat a FB, but there are some nice little things, like no real need for power attack ( since you're swinging with all str mostly) and the fact that every swgin will hit three people to every person that he threatens sample (note, not using the ability bonuses for lvling up cause i just woke up) 6th lvl Barbarian, 10th Lvl Frenzied beserker (figure rage/frenzy) Str, 34, mod of 12 (str enhancement of 6 figured in) 16/16/12/7 Large size greatsword full damage output ( i suck at math early in the morn so bear with me if i make mistakes) 3d6+82:3d6+82:3d6+66:3d6+46 so four attacks on four different things, with possible cleaves 1 lvl barb,5 lvl Fighter, 10 Warhulk Str 50 mod of 20 14/8/3 Large size greatsword FDO with power attack 3d6+58:3d6+46:3d6+36 without::3d6+40 three times so youve lost one attack (haste gives you it back) and 24,20,10 on your attacks but every time you swing you hit everything in your reach, then your cleaves biggest numbers fb, most dead people, warhulk
VonRichthofen 12-01-06, 01:02 PM	Key is to let him play out his rage without effect. A straight fighter with Robilar's Gambit, Overpowering Attack, Elusive Target, Active Shield Defense, Short Haft, a few Combat Focus feats & Improved Combat Expertise should do the job. Throw in the feat that lets you take a 5ft-step instead of an attack of opportunity + the Sidestep feat, and you'll only ever catch one attack per round. Pretty feat intensive but hey, you've got 19 to spend on this build. Once his Power Attack is moot, you'll have to handle the great Str modifier. Put your CE in a region where he can only hit you on a natural 20, survive the one hit per 20 rounds (fast healing 4 helps a bit), and regale him with moderate damage. Once his rage/frenzy comes into it's last round(s), you'll no longer step away due to the Gambit but bombard him with a few hundred damage, and then watch his fury end - and the FB die. This will need good timing, probably luck, but I am pretty sure you could kill an FB quite handy this way.
Zemyla 12-01-06, 01:15 PM	5 lvl Fighter ;_;
bitnine 12-01-06, 02:14 PM	This will need good timing, probably luck, but I am pretty sure you could kill an FB quite handy this way.Well, yeah, the FB has a number of exploitable vulnerabilities that serve as significant drawbacks, particularly against clever and/or prepared opponents and duels. A FB who has had their opposition disappear for a round, breaking control, and then been kited by an illusion or summon will attest to that. (Yeah, a well-built FB will break frenzy in short order and may be immune to fatigue, but that still places you at having eaten up a frenzy and your opponent in a better position.) You should, as a FB, devote a measure of your resources to shoring up weaknesses. And you will encounter situations where your particular liabilities are either intentionally exploited or naturally work against you. Which means the best case explosive damage potential of a frenzied berserker does not tell the whole tale of its combat effectiveness. I think the real striking part of why people view the frenzied berserker as so powerful is because of its accessibility. Hard to not make an FB build that doesn't deal striking damage, particularly in the best case. Having an actually game-workable FB and weighting its liabilities against its potential when determining real output? I think you'll find that plenty of other builds can certainly keep up.
Rhonin the Big 12-01-06, 03:56 PM	So... where could one find a generic Stormguard Warrior Warblade on these forums? :) In master Ghola's Tome of Battle build compendium look for a build made by Yours Truly known as "Waterga Ironstorm, the last stormguard warrior you will ever need." Not the strongest build ever, but alot of my friends think it is a pretty good build to take advantage of Stormguard Warrior and all its tactical manuevers. *plug plug* ...Apply the Amphibious template to any qualified LA +0 race. Instant non-mammal. Unless D&D allows for amphibious mammals...which wouldn't surprise me...but since I'm unaware of any D&D mechanic that depends on whether something is a mammal... The Reptiliomancer prestige class has a special requirement which is "The character must not be a mammal. If he belongs to a race considered to be a mammal he must have his mammility taken away from him by magical means." Key is to let him play out his rage without effect. A straight fighter with Robilar's Gambit, Overpowering Attack, Elusive Target, Active Shield Defense, Short Haft, a few Combat Focus feats & Improved Combat Expertise should do the job. Throw in the feat that lets you take a 5ft-step instead of an attack of opportunity + the Sidestep feat, and you'll only ever catch one attack per round. Pretty feat intensive but hey, you've got 19 to spend on this build. Once his Power Attack is moot, you'll have to handle the great Str modifier. Put your CE in a region where he can only hit you on a natural 20, survive the one hit per 20 rounds (fast healing 4 helps a bit), and regale him with moderate damage. Once his rage/frenzy comes into it's last round(s), you'll no longer step away due to the Gambit but bombard him with a few hundred damage, and then watch his fury end - and the FB die. This will need good timing, probably luck, but I am pretty sure you could kill an FB quite handy this way. The question is not "How to kill a Frenzied Berserker" but "How to outdamage a Frenzied Berserker." I am not sure if that is possible. An orc frenzied berserker wielding a 2h valorous weapon with battle jump, leap attack and headlong rush has a Power Attack ratio of 72:1! Using Shock Trooper@Heedless charge will result in a return of 1440 damage! A large orc double axe gripped in the hands of someone with 64str will deal 2d6+40, combined with the above features thats 1,487 on average with a single charge attack! I am not sure how that number can be beaten without Frenzied Berserker, but whomever does earns my praize!
Auldar 12-01-06, 04:18 PM	I had a PvP fight between me and my good buddy Zaxter. He was a Water Orc frenzied berserker with 64 strength while Mountain Raging and frenzying (he had 4 levels in Eye of Gruumsh and 3 levels in Goliath Stoneblessed before barbarian). I had once considered using Stoneblessed to gain access to Mountain Rage, but in the end looked at the RAW of the Stoneblessed level 3 ability, and it only mentions Prestige classes and feats, and being vulnerable to spells and effects as though a member of that race.. As such, I decided that the racial sub level for Goliath barbarians couldn't be accessed via Stoneblessed.. Mountain Rage also kind of assumes you have the Powerful Build trait, which you also don't have via Stoneblessed.. Do you guys think it's legal?
vylikas 12-01-06, 04:32 PM	Try this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=748289 Average of 300+ damage a round using sneak attacks not counting magic items, ability score bonuses to damage, and attack of opportunities (which the build can sneak attack from as well, and is built to take advantage of). The ultimate build if sneak attack builds are your thing. Less circumstantial prerequisites than Leap Attack/Power Attack. And with the new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, it can even damage creatures that used to be immune to sneak attack. It's only weakness is against characters with Uncanny Dodge, which it has to wait until level 20/21 in order to deal with easily. But then again, Power Attack can be countered with Elusive Target.
Hanniball 12-01-06, 04:56 PM	Can any melee build keep up with the damage progression? Do any get close? It is my esteemed pleasure to introduce The King of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227556) :bow: A melee gish should have no problems keeping up with a FB damage-wise Agreed. Also, if the gish sees that they can't outdish the pain, they can easily remove themselves from combat to wait out the frenzy.
Chaoswarrior 12-01-06, 05:42 PM	Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish10/Revenant Blade5 That should beat the FB handily enough. You're looking at 8 or so attacks every round, each dealing two-handed power attack damage, and once per day pulling out 16 attacks at the same damage. Hell, you can even take a note from the FB UberCharger's book, and use Thousand Cuts as part of a charge with an item of lion's charge. Can the FBs double power attack ratio beat a full 16 attacks using all of the same other tricks? Where is the Revenant Blade PrC from?
Phoenix00 12-01-06, 05:51 PM	Where is the Revenant Blade PrC from? Always look here and "search" for the Prestige Class Name if you don't know where a prestige class is from. Its the first result from a google search of Prestige Class Index http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc PE Player's Guide to Eberron
Wymark 12-01-06, 06:45 PM	Wow. I thought this thread was going to die. Thanks for your suggestions. I do realize the problems of the frenzied berserker and i know the weaknesses can be exploited. I do not think it is the BEST melee class. I am just looking for other melee builds that can compete with the damage output. Given that my gaming groups only use WotC books some of the suggestions won't work. Recapping what i have seen suggested: King of Smack Revenant Blade (assuming the FB isnt) some ToB builds Did I miss something? Will anything else do it?
nastynate 12-01-06, 08:37 PM	Wow. I thought this thread was going to die. Thanks for your suggestions. I do realize the problems of the frenzied berserker and i know the weaknesses can be exploited. I do not think it is the BEST melee class. I am just looking for other melee builds that can compete with the damage output. Given that my gaming groups only use WotC books some of the suggestions won't work. Recapping what i have seen suggested: King of Smack Revenant Blade (assuming the FB isnt) some ToB builds Did I miss something? Will anything else do it? Some of the charger builds can also out-damage the FB, as well as the multi-pounce builds, and of course the crazy theoretical builds like the hulking hurler.
vylikas 12-01-06, 08:49 PM	Wow. I thought this thread was going to die. Thanks for your suggestions. I do realize the problems of the frenzied berserker and i know the weaknesses can be exploited. I do not think it is the BEST melee class. I am just looking for other melee builds that can compete with the damage output. Given that my gaming groups only use WotC books some of the suggestions won't work. Recapping what i have seen suggested: King of Smack Revenant Blade (assuming the FB isnt) some ToB builds Did I miss something? Will anything else do it? errrr... doesn't just about *everything* on this board use only WoTC books? Most Optimizers pride themselves on being pure RAW. By Revenant Blade, are you talking about the power attack DERVISH/Revenant Blade or just Revenant Blade in general? Because if you meant the latter, then I think you missed out on the Dervish builds. A swashbuckler/fighter/dervish/tempest is a very strong build. If you take the "Ultimate Sneak Attacker" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=748289) and exchange the online original 10-level invisible blade written by the creator with Nightsong Enforcer (scroll down the thread to find alternative modifications to the build on details how) then build will be pure WoTC (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, ToB, CA and PHBII) If you included that in ToB builds then my mistake (it only uses a single ability from the ToB).
xanadu 12-01-06, 09:56 PM	If you want a Dervish who specializes in damage, you dont go twf scimitars. Monk 2 /Fighter 2/ Warblade 2 / Dervish 10 / Warblade 4, max strength, grab Karmic Strike, and use you dancing bonus to fuel power attack (I like deft Opportunist and not tumbling while danncing on AOOs for further carnage). Not only will you get a full attack to power attack (as opposed to one charge), you get to move away and not receive a full attack in return.
Reis 12-01-06, 10:16 PM	don't forget about the melee killer gnome: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633443 may not have as crazy a PA multiplier as FB but with Iajutsu Focus its not a forgone conclusion. IMO the question of who can do the most damage is situational in it's implications by nature.
Hanniball 12-02-06, 12:48 AM	Did I miss something? Will anything else do it? Lots of things can, I just brought up the KoS because of the "Hey, Frenzied Berserker, you want a piece of this?" line and it's relevance here. Honestly, there are a multitude of ways to go about doing more damage than a FB, it just depends on what kind of character you want to play. BTW, the President of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=519517) outdoes the King.
skydragonknight 12-02-06, 08:45 AM	BTW, the President of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=519517) outdoes the King. Democracy 4TW!
ninjarabbit 12-02-06, 02:03 PM	Here's my attempt to outdo the FB: paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/sacredexorcist8 16 BAB, 18 CL for 9th level spells How it outdoes the FB: wraithstrike/power attack + arcane strike + divine might + polymorph/shapechange + haste + any other nasty spell combinations
Surreal 12-03-06, 01:25 AM	Democracy 4TW! How many versions of "_____ of Smack" do we have so far? I think we need a Dictator next if we don't already have one.
Tempest Stormwind 12-03-06, 01:31 AM	How many versions of "_____ of Smack" do we have so far? I think we need a Dictator next if we don't already have one. Three. The King of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556) is famous. (/me notes that the Wolverine picture has since been taken offline...) The President of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=519517) was a retouch of that which added Shadow Pounce and soulmelds. The Prime Minister of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7514421&postcount=25) (same thread) is a comparable build in most ways. If there's going to be a Dictator of Smack, it likely involves the previous ones plus the Tome of Battle.
Rhonin the Big 12-03-06, 09:05 PM	King of Smack Builds require you to nova like there's no tomorrow and no yesterweek, while the Frenzied Berserker can deal insane amounts of charge damage even with all his rage and frenzies gone for the day. Political Icons of Smack also requires a wisdom score that an optimized Frenzied Berserker does not. And do the Political Icons of Smack really outdamage an average of 1450 damage on a single attack at the end of a charge? I am a class purist, just because a wizard can be built to deal more damage in melee than a frenzied berserker why in the name of Boccob should he? Why would I prep spells like wraithstrike when I could just prep another lesser orb and proceed to blow stuff up? Why would I take Jade Phoenix Mage to improve my base attack when I can further my magical powers with Initiate of the 7fold Veil and Archmage? Why bother doing more melee damage than that fool who sacrificed his mental clarity for power when I can just kill him with magic?
Grim Sage 12-03-06, 09:32 PM	Ehm, because they can? Because there's nothing to assert your superiority over another like beating him on his own ground, the weak and frail magic-user grinding the once-mighty berserker into the dust of his failure, being able to re-assert the fabric of reality to such an extent that the laws of physics are shaking in their boots, and still be in time for lunch? Don't blame me, those wizards are arrogant ;)
Rhonin the Big 12-03-06, 10:01 PM	Ehm, because they can? Because there's nothing to assert your superiority over another like beating him on his own ground, the weak and frail magic-user grinding the once-mighty berserker into the dust of his failure, being able to re-assert the fabric of reality to such an extent that the laws of physics are shaking in their boots, and still be in time for lunch? Don't blame me, those wizards are arrogant ;) 1487, that's the magic number. One attack, one charge, 1487. Can any warcaster possibly deal more than 1487 in one round? A Frenzied Berserker can.
Think0028 12-03-06, 10:15 PM	1487, that's the magic number. One attack, one charge, 1487. Can any warcaster possibly deal more than 1487 in one round? A Frenzied Berserker can. Ignoring infinite loops, right? Cause it's easily possible with 1 9th level spell, 1 8th, and 1 scroll. See T_G's Arcane Nova loop.
GaffeR 12-04-06, 03:38 AM	1487, that's the magic number. One attack, one charge, 1487. Can any warcaster possibly deal more than 1487 in one round? A Frenzied Berserker can. Yes, several. Isn't the world record damage held by a caster (synergy of LoP's dirty tricks)? :lop:
nastynate 12-04-06, 04:07 AM	Yes, several. Isn't the world record damage held by a caster (synergy of LoP's dirty tricks)? :lop: Barring infinate loops (of which there are many), I'm fairly certain the hulking hurler holds the damage record. Trillions of damage is pretty rediculous.
GaffeR 12-04-06, 04:20 AM	Trillions IS pretty rediculous... ...but so is > (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8378468&postcount=58)
skydragonknight 12-04-06, 08:31 AM	Trillions IS pretty rediculous... ...but so is > (2.5*10^36530)^^73600 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8378468&postcount=58) :eek: That number would take up more space than the Pun-Pun thread...
Midnight_v 12-04-06, 08:59 AM	Back on topic... I'm sad that someone beat me to it.. but yeah... The Kings of smack can keep up. Further they're healing themselves as they go along and there are many many builds to it. The intiators can possibly as well see the Tob Build Compendium which should have links to the tricks compendium:http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9809071 EIther one of these options should be able to do it. Though honestly you might try to embrace the beserker as Iron heart surge can end the frenzy at will. Try Barbarian1 warblade 5 Frenzied berseker or something like or rather go through the build compendium at least once. ~M~
Necromas 12-04-06, 09:07 AM	Not really a melee build, but if you try to fight a hulking hurler in melee combat, he can just bash you with his moon sized rock.
Rhonin the Big 12-04-06, 04:37 PM	Yes, several. Isn't the world record damage held by a caster (synergy of LoP's dirty tricks) Yes, casters can deal infinite damage thanx to Master LoP's d&d exodia tricks but thats beside the point. I was misunderstood, when I said warcaster I meant gish but I despise using the word gish in everyday conversation so I made up the term warcaster. I doubt that a gish can do >1487 in melee, most gishes take work to get +16BaB which means 9th level spellcasting is out of the question. A Frenzied Berserker needs no casting stats, can wear whatever armor his dexterity will allow and can deal a reliable 1487 on one attack with one charge as long as he has at least 1 rage and 1 frenzy left. Barring infinate loops (of which there are many), I'm fairly certain the hulking hurler holds the damage record. Trillions of damage is pretty rediculous. The infamous hulking hurler is theoretical work at best. Even if you can deal elevendy-bajillion-d6 damage by throwing all your entire medium load at a person (or 3 clones of my ex-girlfriend), where are you gonna get all that? A gargantuan creature weighs upto 125tons, assuming a medium load of 2 million lbs he would have to throw a pile of 8 gargantuan creatures (or 16 clones of my ex-girlfriend) to deal that damage, now where are you gonna get that? That is theoretical work based on the best case scenario, thats like saying a fighter20 with a vorpal falchion can beat my AC96 duelist because when he rolls 2 natural20s the duelist is dead. A Frenzied Berserker can have a lower level adjustment than an optimized hulking hurler, and can deal a reliable and practical 1487 damage on one attack with one charge ... may god help your game if he aquires pounce or learns from Master Stormwind's UberCharging techniques. Is there anything out there that can outdamage a Frenzied Berserker in melee?
skydragonknight 12-04-06, 11:39 PM	Is there anything out there that can outdamage a Frenzied Berserker in melee? If the Frenzied Berserker can Battle Jump/Leap Attack with a Valorous Lance wielded with both hands while mounted and if he became a berserker when he reverted back to his savage ways after gaining two levels as a Cavalier, and if he knew pounce, then... ...then it really depends on if the 'Zerker's victim has Elusive Target. :P
Grave 12-04-06, 11:44 PM	I've seen Iaijutsu Master builds that can match or exceed FB in single attack damage outputs. Warblade 10/Swashbuckler 3/Iaijutus Master 5/XX 2 can, with the right maneuvers and feat selection do several thousand damage in one round (thank you CustServ for the White Raven Tactics ruling :D). Course, IM builds are still rather MAD. Oh, well. -Grave & Co.
Think0028 12-04-06, 11:54 PM	Yes, casters can deal infinite damage thanx to Master LoP's d&d exodia tricks but thats beside the point. I was misunderstood, when I said warcaster I meant gish but I despise using the word gish in everyday conversation so I made up the term warcaster. I doubt that a gish can do >1487 in melee, most gishes take work to get +16BaB which means 9th level spellcasting is out of the question. 1) No one is going to understand you if you make new terms. 2) No 9th level spells with +16 BAB? Pfffftaahahahaha! Yeah right. Off the top of my head, Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 has +17 BAB and CL 18 with 9th level spells. The infamous hulking hurler is theoretical work at best. Even if you can deal elevendy-bajillion-d6 damage by throwing all your entire medium load at a person (or 3 clones of my ex-girlfriend), where are you gonna get all that? A gargantuan creature weighs upto 125tons, assuming a medium load of 2 million lbs he would have to throw a pile of 8 gargantuan creatures (or 16 clones of my ex-girlfriend) to deal that damage, now where are you gonna get that? That is theoretical work based on the best case scenario, thats like saying a fighter20 with a vorpal falchion can beat my AC96 duelist because when he rolls 2 natural20s the duelist is dead. A Frenzied Berserker can have a lower level adjustment than an optimized hulking hurler, and can deal a reliable and practical 1487 damage on one attack with one charge ... may god help your game if he aquires pounce or learns from Master Stormwind's UberCharging techniques. Is there anything out there that can outdamage a Frenzied Berserker in melee? Ok, fine. You want melee? You got melee. human paladin 7/psychic warrior 2/cavalier 10/psychic warrior +1 STR: 14 + 5 from levels = 19 DEX: 10 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 14 1: Weapon Focus (Lance), Mounted Combat 3: Ride-By Attack 6: Spirited Charge 9: Power Attack 12: Improved Bull Rush 15: Shock Trooper 18: free Cast Rhino's Rush. Manifest Psionic Lion's Charge and charge (on horse with lance) and Smite Evil! ((1d8 (lance) + 6 (STR) + 9 (smite evil) + 38 (Power Attack)) x 2 (Rhino's Rush)) x 5 (Unstoppable Charge)) x 4 (full attack thanks to Psionic Lion's Charge) Average of 2,300 damage. Only needs a WIS of 12 and STR of 14 initially. Ya happy? And Rhino's Rush is a 1st level spell, and Psionic Lion's Charge costs 3 PP, which could easily be covered by a cognizance crystal you can refill on down days. And pardon my 'ignorance,' but how are you getting 1487 damage on a charge? Because as far as I can tell, you've been tossing that number around with zero proof as to how you got it.
Rhonin the Big 12-06-06, 01:49 PM	1) No one is going to understand you if you make new terms. 2) No 9th level spells with +16 BAB? Pfffftaahahahaha! Yeah right. Off the top of my head, Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 has +17 BAB and CL 18 with 9th level spells. This once again proves I know very little about the sacred art of gish optimization. With all the new full BaB and full spellcasting classes out there I think WoTC should finally cut the ********, remove arcane spell failure, give wizards fighter BaB, fighter proficiencies and d8HD. That way we can all stop ignoring the elephant in the room that magic has no weaknesses. Ok, fine. You want melee? You got melee. human paladin 7/psychic warrior 2/cavalier 10/psychic warrior +1 STR: 14 + 5 from levels = 19 DEX: 10 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 14 1: Weapon Focus (Lance), Mounted Combat 3: Ride-By Attack 6: Spirited Charge 9: Power Attack 12: Improved Bull Rush 15: Shock Trooper 18: free Cast Rhino's Rush. Manifest Psionic Lion's Charge and charge (on horse with lance) and Smite Evil! ((1d8 (lance) + 6 (STR) + 9 (smite evil) + 38 (Power Attack)) x 2 (Rhino's Rush)) x 5 (Unstoppable Charge)) x 4 (full attack thanks to Psionic Lion's Charge) Average of 2,300 damage. Only needs a WIS of 12 and STR of 14 initially. Ya happy? And Rhino's Rush is a 1st level spell, and Psionic Lion's Charge costs 3 PP, which could easily be covered by a cognizance crystal you can refill on down days. And pardon my 'ignorance,' but how are you getting 1487 damage on a charge? Because as far as I can tell, you've been tossing that number around with zero proof as to how you got it. The Frenzied Berserker build I credit to 1487 is a co-authored Water Orc FB my buddy Zaxter and I made. He was a CE Water Orc fighter2/barb3/eye of gruumsh2/fb10/goliath stoneblessed3. We retrained his 1st barb level for the Goliath Barb racial sub and we retrained his free toughness. The important feats were Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, Reckless Rage and Shock Trooper. His weapon was a +2 valorous furious initiative parrying north end of an Orc Double Axe. The end result was 64 str while going completely insane, large size and on average 1487 damage on a single charge. If we gave him pounce somehow (too easy) you might as well multiply 1487 by 5 when all 5 attacks hit for 7435 damage. Nevertheless I like your build better than my friend's Berserker, maybe the only way to settle the score would be a bout in Dungeon Fight Club my arena campaign setting *plug plug*
Zemyla 12-07-06, 02:20 PM	I kind of like the Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit builds for damage.
Rhonin the Big 12-07-06, 03:40 PM	Than you'd love Nox *plug plug plug*