Can anyone optimise a dual sai wielding build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can anyone optimise a dual sai wielding build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the shaderaven
03-08-05, 06:26 PM Any ideas how to make generally optimised sai wielding character? Not an optimised monstrosity really, but something that is at least as valuable to the party as a Barbarian or Ranger of its level.
Tempest Stormwind
03-08-05, 06:36 PM Any ideas how to make generally optimised sai wielding character? Not an optimised monstrosity really, but something that is at least as valuable to the party as a Barbarian or Ranger of its level.
Sais are monk weapons, IIRC. A good suggestion here is mostly Monk, either pure monk or the usual monk 9 / shou disciple 5 / PickYourClass 6 (possibly Tattooed Monk or some other impressive monk class, or -- another decent suggestion -- Invisible Blade. sais are close enough to daggers/punch daggers to count, IMO). Focus on the TWF feats to add extra attacks to your flurry (fully stackable in 3.5) and Improved Disarm or a related ability (or if you went invisible blade, anything based off of feinting. There's a few in Complete Adventurer worth looking into).
Ivarrius
03-08-05, 06:59 PM You could even go rogue5/monk10/shou disciple5, and take Ascetic rogue feat from CV. That will give you som SA bonus dice to add for damage.
rilem
03-08-05, 09:42 PM Monk4/Ftr6/Rog3/EWM2/KnightoftheMiddleCircle1/ShouDisciple4

BAB18
Saves 16/15/11

Plus evasion, 2d6 sneak attack, stunning attack, Unarmed damage 1d10, TWF + Flurry with Sai + Exotic TWF, Minor spellcasting, Wis to AC, Still Mind ability.

6 bonus fighter feats (fighter+shou), 2 bonus monk feats -- for a total of
16 feats total. (vs. 19 for fighter 20).

Feats required: WF (unarmed); WF (Sai); Dodge. That's still 13
feats to play with.

Other feats: Stunning Fist (monk); combat reflexes (monk); Double Hit
(miniHdbk); Combat Expertise; Improved Disarm; TWF; ITWF; GTWF; Extra Stunning, Ability Focus (stunning attack); mobility; Ascetic Rogue; Quick Draw.

Exotic Weapon Master Tricks: Exotic TWF, Ranged Disarm

Assuming you take GTWF, you'll have 8 attacks (is that right?); KotMC
Insight bonus negates your flurry penalty and, with EWM, you actually get a
net +1 on TWF. (If you rule that Shou flurry ability stacks with monk, that
lessens your penalty on flurry attacks, too).

So your final attack bonus, including feats/TWF/flurry, would be

+18/+13/+8/+3/+18 and +18/+13/+8 (incl. -1 TWF, -1 flurry, +2 insight, +1 Wpn focus)

Your tactics in this build are to set up sneak attacks with your Stunning
Sword ability. You'll have 11 stunning attacks per day at level 20, and your
DC will be 22+Wis modifier. Once they're stunned, you unload your next 7
attacks with an extra 2d6 dmg on each one.

The Sai give you some extra tricks; you'll be able to disarm pretty well and even disarm opponents by throwing your Sai.

Note that you can get your Sneak Attack higher still by sacfificing some unarmed damage -- swap out KotMC and a monk level for Justicar of Taiia for an added EWP and +1d6, and keep the same insight bonus.
Porcus the Wombat
03-08-05, 11:56 PM This cries for an anthropomorphic turtle, but alas there is not one in Savage Species. Does anyone know where one might be found?
Tempest Stormwind
03-09-05, 12:19 AM This cries for an anthropomorphic turtle, but alas there is not one in Savage Species. Does anyone know where one might be found?
Kappa in OA is close. Just as crude as you'd expect, too. ^_^
PhaedrusXY
03-09-05, 02:13 AM Master Po (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5381824&postcount=723) could duel wield sais, if the DM lets them count as "daggers" for Invisible Blade. (I'd say he errs on the side of monstrosity, though. :P )
Tempest Stormwind
03-09-05, 02:35 AM Of course, this also uses the Rokugan campaign setting books by AEG, which are only balanced if everything from Commoner up gets stuff like that.

I tell horror stories of a friend who made a 15th level combat character (I think it was fighter into one of the Scorpion prestige classes, possibly Bayushi Deciever) who took down a level 22 or so Legendary Dreadnaught in one hit, and then proceeded to tackle a level 24 wizard in single combat (wizard prepped in general adventuring setup, admittedly, rather than effective 1v1ing). The wizard decided he'd have better chances stepping through the prismatic wall than facing the guy.

I like the direction you took the non-Rokugan areas of Po, though. That's pretty slick.
Surreal
03-09-05, 02:54 AM Kappa in OA is close. Just as crude as you'd expect, too. ^_^

Anyone seen the new generation of TMNT? Ugh... maybe my memories are tainted, but the old ones seemed so much better.
the shaderaven
03-09-05, 06:59 AM About Master Po... do Int to Initiative twice and Int to AC twice really stack? Isn't it the same as saying that monk/ninja (C.Adv) adds his Wis to AC twice... which is just wrong IMHO? Other than that Master Po rocks.
lokkesmadr
03-09-05, 08:25 AM Bearing in mind that the Complete Adventurer Ninja specifically states that the Wisdom modifier to AC it grants doesn't stack with monk AC, and that none of these others state the same, it would appear that, purely considering the rules as written, yes, they all stack. Most DMs in real games tend to put restrictions on non-standard stats being applied to things but by the RAW there's no restriction
catharz
03-09-05, 01:49 PM If you can convice your DM that sais are similar to daggers, a Monk/Swashbuckler/Master thrower/Invisible blade would be rockin', expecially if you can use Dragon magazine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the shaderaven 03-08-05, 06:26 PM	Any ideas how to make generally optimised sai wielding character? Not an optimised monstrosity really, but something that is at least as valuable to the party as a Barbarian or Ranger of its level.
Tempest Stormwind 03-08-05, 06:36 PM	Any ideas how to make generally optimised sai wielding character? Not an optimised monstrosity really, but something that is at least as valuable to the party as a Barbarian or Ranger of its level. Sais are monk weapons, IIRC. A good suggestion here is mostly Monk, either pure monk or the usual monk 9 / shou disciple 5 / PickYourClass 6 (possibly Tattooed Monk or some other impressive monk class, or -- another decent suggestion -- Invisible Blade. sais are close enough to daggers/punch daggers to count, IMO). Focus on the TWF feats to add extra attacks to your flurry (fully stackable in 3.5) and Improved Disarm or a related ability (or if you went invisible blade, anything based off of feinting. There's a few in Complete Adventurer worth looking into).
Ivarrius 03-08-05, 06:59 PM	You could even go rogue5/monk10/shou disciple5, and take Ascetic rogue feat from CV. That will give you som SA bonus dice to add for damage.
rilem 03-08-05, 09:42 PM	Monk4/Ftr6/Rog3/EWM2/KnightoftheMiddleCircle1/ShouDisciple4 BAB18 Saves 16/15/11 Plus evasion, 2d6 sneak attack, stunning attack, Unarmed damage 1d10, TWF + Flurry with Sai + Exotic TWF, Minor spellcasting, Wis to AC, Still Mind ability. 6 bonus fighter feats (fighter+shou), 2 bonus monk feats -- for a total of 16 feats total. (vs. 19 for fighter 20). Feats required: WF (unarmed); WF (Sai); Dodge. That's still 13 feats to play with. Other feats: Stunning Fist (monk); combat reflexes (monk); Double Hit (miniHdbk); Combat Expertise; Improved Disarm; TWF; ITWF; GTWF; Extra Stunning, Ability Focus (stunning attack); mobility; Ascetic Rogue; Quick Draw. Exotic Weapon Master Tricks: Exotic TWF, Ranged Disarm Assuming you take GTWF, you'll have 8 attacks (is that right?); KotMC Insight bonus negates your flurry penalty and, with EWM, you actually get a net +1 on TWF. (If you rule that Shou flurry ability stacks with monk, that lessens your penalty on flurry attacks, too). So your final attack bonus, including feats/TWF/flurry, would be +18/+13/+8/+3/+18 and +18/+13/+8 (incl. -1 TWF, -1 flurry, +2 insight, +1 Wpn focus) Your tactics in this build are to set up sneak attacks with your Stunning Sword ability. You'll have 11 stunning attacks per day at level 20, and your DC will be 22+Wis modifier. Once they're stunned, you unload your next 7 attacks with an extra 2d6 dmg on each one. The Sai give you some extra tricks; you'll be able to disarm pretty well and even disarm opponents by throwing your Sai. Note that you can get your Sneak Attack higher still by sacfificing some unarmed damage -- swap out KotMC and a monk level for Justicar of Taiia for an added EWP and +1d6, and keep the same insight bonus.
Porcus the Wombat 03-08-05, 11:56 PM	This cries for an anthropomorphic turtle, but alas there is not one in Savage Species. Does anyone know where one might be found?
Tempest Stormwind 03-09-05, 12:19 AM	This cries for an anthropomorphic turtle, but alas there is not one in Savage Species. Does anyone know where one might be found? Kappa in OA is close. Just as crude as you'd expect, too. ^_^
PhaedrusXY 03-09-05, 02:13 AM	Master Po (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5381824&postcount=723) could duel wield sais, if the DM lets them count as "daggers" for Invisible Blade. (I'd say he errs on the side of monstrosity, though. :P )
Tempest Stormwind 03-09-05, 02:35 AM	Of course, this also uses the Rokugan campaign setting books by AEG, which are only balanced if everything from Commoner up gets stuff like that. I tell horror stories of a friend who made a 15th level combat character (I think it was fighter into one of the Scorpion prestige classes, possibly Bayushi Deciever) who took down a level 22 or so Legendary Dreadnaught in one hit, and then proceeded to tackle a level 24 wizard in single combat (wizard prepped in general adventuring setup, admittedly, rather than effective 1v1ing). The wizard decided he'd have better chances stepping through the prismatic wall than facing the guy. I like the direction you took the non-Rokugan areas of Po, though. That's pretty slick.
Surreal 03-09-05, 02:54 AM	Kappa in OA is close. Just as crude as you'd expect, too. ^_^ Anyone seen the new generation of TMNT? Ugh... maybe my memories are tainted, but the old ones seemed so much better.
the shaderaven 03-09-05, 06:59 AM	About Master Po... do Int to Initiative twice and Int to AC twice really stack? Isn't it the same as saying that monk/ninja (C.Adv) adds his Wis to AC twice... which is just wrong IMHO? Other than that Master Po rocks.
lokkesmadr 03-09-05, 08:25 AM	Bearing in mind that the Complete Adventurer Ninja specifically states that the Wisdom modifier to AC it grants doesn't stack with monk AC, and that none of these others state the same, it would appear that, purely considering the rules as written, yes, they all stack. Most DMs in real games tend to put restrictions on non-standard stats being applied to things but by the RAW there's no restriction
catharz 03-09-05, 01:49 PM	If you can convice your DM that sais are similar to daggers, a Monk/Swashbuckler/Master thrower/Invisible blade would be rockin', expecially if you can use Dragon magazine.