Can Epic Fighters Compare with Epic Casters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Epic Fighters Compare with Epic Casters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 02:56 AM Previously I was looking to put together a build for an Epic Arena my friend is doing. The post can be found here...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=296762

But, in the spirit of doing something different, I really wanted to try something other then the old Wizard's, Incantrix's, Cleric's, etc. The problem is, without any real trials myself I wouldn't know, can Epic Fighters (ECL 25 in this instance) even compare to Epic Spellcasters?

With the obsene maneuverability/AC/abilities/answers to situations most Casters have at their fingertips, can any melee build (that has nothing to do with Psionics since it's not allowed) actually compare in combat?

Most casters can just polymorph into something awesome, use some spells for incredible AC and attack, and destroy any fighter, from the matches I've seen. Does anyone happen to know any Fighter builds (they can be a combo of Mage/Fighter, but not pure Mage) that actually have a chance at killing crazy Epic spellcasters?

You can check out my other post for the conditions of the Arena. Luckily Fighters have one thing going for them, all Epic spells are banned.
Ipsissimus
08-23-04, 04:01 AM Without reading the link...

Staying power, simply put. An epic fighter type can usually go through more encounters than an epic caster. Granted an epic fighter geared to defeat casters will have an easier time as well as an epic caster would have geared to defeating a fighter type.

Prepartation.

In our last campaign my paladin and our wizard were the power houses of the group. We had come to the conclusion that it all depended on who was able to go first. A devastating attack dealing so much damage the wizard would be forced to compensate with defensive or movement spells rather than straight offense, or if the wizard was given enough time to spell up he would easily take down the paladin.

One attack from horseback with my lance could take him down to 1/4 of his hps. If I crit he would simply be dead. Same if I failed any of his save or die spells, but once he started casting defensive spells, to make him harder to hit or reach everything else will just start to pile on and I would lose.

I would favor the caster, since they have a very low threshold to survive in the beginning they more than make up for it once they start to get 6th level spells and beyond. Once a caster gets to that lvl and is smart about it, would win hands down...if he was stupid or careless the fighter could over take him in one or two rounds easily.
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 04:10 AM I know the environment in which it all happens counts for alot of every character's effectiveness. Of course, in this Arena game it's obviously impossible to catch any Caster unaware. You are both teleported into the Arena, get two full rounds of preparations (casting spells, drinking potions, etc) and then the Gong sounds and the match begins.

By the time those two rounds are over, almost every caster I've seen has done the classic Time Stop/buff themselves to hell gig. So now they're not exactly bearer's of "little HPs" since all of them Polymorph into some form with many more HPs then their own normal form.

Just like you said, if he started getting the chance to cast defensive spells (which the casters in the Arena do) you would lose. But is there any build that has a chance?
glowworm
08-23-04, 04:53 AM any of those immune to dammage builds might have a chance but i dont know those wizards are crafty. in short above lv 11 there is nothing a fighter type can do that a wizard cant do better faster and meaner in epic it is a hands down no contest the magic user type will win every time. nuf said.
scrollreader
08-23-04, 06:52 AM You could try for a null damage build. Something like a Wartroll (from the WotC sneak preview of the MM3 with Hexblade/Dragon Disciple (Black) and a ring of evasion. That would allow you to regenerate all damage, and ignore any sort of spell with a save on a sucessful save.

Alternatively, a Ranger/Hexblade/Foe Hunter might be the ticket. Play a drow for really high SR (which would stack with the foe hunter's) and the ability to get evasion from ranger, and mettle from hexblade for a similar effect. With resonating resistance (from a spell storing ring, say) you can seriously wreck a spellcaster's day, since he has to beat your (boosted) SR /twice/ and then have you fail a save to affect you. A rather unlikely series of events.

Another option of note is the master archer. Use The deepwood sniper/Peerless Archer to truestrike/PA the spellcaster, possibly adding in the archer class from RoS. With the right mobility options, you may be able to hit for high amounts of damage, and get enough distance from the spellcaster to actually outrange him.

Just some options here from my PoV.

PS If allowed, by all means take Leadership. The absolute best cohort is a Master Alchemist from MoF. They can brew up to 9th level potions. There's no reason the timestop buffing fun needs to restricted to casters.
:devil:

PPS Use poison. A good Int/Wix poison is fun to smack spellcasters around with. With the Deepwood sniper build above you get poison use, and with multi-attack, that's alot of saves for the caster to make. It's feeblmind with a fort save! On an arrow. :P
Vodalen
08-23-04, 07:42 AM Not really.

That said, you might have a chance with something like an optimized Frenzied berserker of iajutsu master. Emphasis on might, especially with the two rounds of buffing.

Spell resistance will help, but even if you manage to get it high enough so that no equal ECL caster can effectively penetrate it, there are plenty of alternatives that bypass SR all together.

Maybe something along the lines of:
Half-Minotaur White Dragonspawn Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale
Racial HD 3/Hexblade 3/Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berzerker10

That's only a level 20 build, not sure what epic FB is like.

Buy magebane manacles, which give permanent antimagic field for only 132k. Dragonspawn gives you some speed, FB gives you survivability from HP damage(and there's not much they'll be able to do to you in an AM field) and the ability to cut a finger-waggling dress-wearer in half when all of his pretty protective spells disappear. Hexblade is in there for mettle, which is an (ex) ability, but you could easily substitute it for something else. Baleen whale and half-minotaur give you +12 str, which you'll need since you won't be able to use items to boost it. Figure 18 starting, +12 racial modifiers, +5 level, +5 tome, you'll have 40 strength at level 20 and 18 BAB.

Or maybe a Half-Minotaur Werebear Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale with VoP.

(LA +3)Monst. Humanoid 3/Animal 6/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 10/

Sure, you don't get any epic bonus feats, but who cares. Frenzying and raging at ECL 25, you'd have 73 strength when raging and frenzied in an Antimagic field. Since you can't wear armor in hybrid form, or with VoP, your AC will stink, but you'll still be all but unkillable.
Cornbread
08-23-04, 09:55 AM Check the Book of Vile Darkness for their sweet list of high DC poisons.

Colossal Scorpion poison has a DC54, if I recall. I'm not sure on the DCs of int/wis/cha poisons.

Another option is to look at builds that give you a high number of melee attacks and mix it with a souleating/wounding weapon. Doing con damage and negative levels on every hit rocks. A dervish with a pair of Souleating Spell Storing (Poison) Scimitars of Puncturing (Modified Rapier of Puncturing in the DMG) with a high DC con poison applied to them would eat through pretty much anything.

Things you will need to keep in mind is your lack of ability to overcome versatility. You will need to be able to:

become ethereal
fly
close large distances quickly
resist/absorb/turn spells
nullify enemy defensive magic
have a catch-all in case your plan goes wrong and you need to regroup

I suggest an item that creates antimagic in case you can't close fast enough, some spell storing rings with mords DJ, a rod of absorption, ring of spell turning, item with SR, save boost item, armor of etherealness, and winged boots.
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 12:59 PM The Dervish sounds pretty neat, assuming I can get the attack high enough to actually hit most buffed caster's AC's (from what I've seen they're about 50-70).

Unfortunately no matter what, it's a house rule that SR caps out at 37 (12+characters ECL which is 25). Anthropomorphic characters are also not allowed, unfortunately.
Cornbread
08-23-04, 01:52 PM The Rapier of Puncturing (in this case scimitar) allows you to make 3 attacks per day as touch attacks that do 1d6con each. That should take care of that.

I'll bet we can get your attack up plenty for that. Throw in quick draw and buy four of them for a (almost) guaranteed 12d6 con damage in one round. Averages out to 42 con damage.

I'll see about putting a more specific build up with some equipment when I get back to my books later tonight.
Thannin
08-23-04, 02:03 PM Ill reiterate the FB build. Take magic items to allow you to fly (winged mask), avoid damage(ring of evasion), avoid hold/web spells(ring of freedom of movement), get close(greater vestments of power(magic of Faerun) allows for unlimited d-door), see through the illusions(greater vestments of power do the trick(true seeing)), and other utility spells(armor,weapons,etc). Take feats that prevent spellcasting when next to him and stick to him like glue.(Mage killer from Miniatures handbook is uber). Take prestige classes to enhance your raging ability.
Example:
Fighter 2/barbarian 2/ranger 2/FB 10/Bear warrior 1/war shaper 3/xx uber prestige class 5.
It will allow you to use a spiked chain, have additional reach, threaten from a distance(closer if needed so he cant five foot step), and allow you to use mage killer to the best ability.
Using the FB deathless frenzy, he cannot kill you until your rage wears off. Assuming a huge con from rage/frenzy/items, your rage will last absolutely forever.
1. you cant die until your rage is gone
2. he cant forecage you(d-door)
3. he cant fly outta your reach(winged mask)
4. he cant cast defensively
5. you have good saves
6. you do tremendous damage
7. You can smash his face in while he realizes he fails casting defensively.
Killing epic level wizards is extremely hard and even I have not taken into account every possible spell. But depending on how stupid the other players are and how smart you are it is very possible as shown.
Enjoy
Myer Lynk
08-23-04, 02:46 PM Well you all have me curious how is a wizard gonna get him self up there with buff spells to the point where a fighter can't hit him??

but otherwise for the topic, if you are fighting in the arena with the same ecl and everything all the spellcaster has to do is get a lucky shot off and hit you with a few prismatic sprays or what have you and then throw up a prismatic sphere (ohhhh the colors) anywho maybe multiclassing would be a good idea get a nice powerful dispel magic or greater dispelling?? and you can take the mage down a notch right?
acvar
08-23-04, 03:58 PM It seems to me that a combo of anti magic field, a form with wings, and a melee build should do quite well vs. any spellcaster. Just pick a race that has a good flight speed and manuvarability give him a magic item with anti magic field and go to town.
Mirror-Image
08-23-04, 05:53 PM except the opponent is an initiat of mystra with a very high caster level, so that your antimagic field doesnt work against him (he probably will have a persistant antimagic field by himselfe :rolleyes: )
Elgonn
08-23-04, 06:12 PM An Epic Fighter can compete but only at levels 40+.
foxylady
08-23-04, 06:42 PM I would argue that Epic fighters are relatively better than non-Epic fighters, when compared to Epic spellcasters. Epic spells themselves are unsuitable in combat, and an Epic spellcaster's improved ability to use metamagic on non-Epic spells (compared to a non-Epic caster) does not improve a spellcaster's abilities as much as Epic feats improve a fighter's.
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 08:37 PM That would be cool, I look forward to the build Cornbread. I'm trying to put together a build myself, but I'm really trying to get 4 levels of Void Incarnate at the end, the problem is getting the skills required for Void Incarnate. If I want Dervish, it doesn't have the Hide or Bluff skill needed for Void Incarnaten (VI Needs a 24 in Hide, Bluff, and Escape Artist).

So it seems I can't have Dervish and Void Incarnate together, which is a bummer.
Averien
08-23-04, 08:37 PM Dwarf White Dragonspawn

Fighter 4/Paladin 2/Deepwarden 2/Master Thrower 5/Templar 1/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Platinum Knight 5/Witch Hunter 2/Spellsword 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1

This get's you full BAB, Cha to saves x3- which makes a Cloak of Charisma a really, really nice item, 2nd level Sorcerer spells (Put the Witch Hunter and Platinum Knight levels to it from White Dragonspawn), flight speed, mettle, evasion. With the Axe Thrower feat, you don't need to worry about dex at all: Str to hit with thrown weapons, Con to AC. Vassal of Bahamut gives you Platinum Armor- best armor in the game, period. Max out your Con, Str, and Cha as much as possible with this build, in that order. You only need to get a ranged touch attack to hit them, and if you can get a Ring of Sequester, they get no Dex against you, either. With a Ring of Freedom of Movement to round things off, you should be pretty good to go, or at least as good to go as you can be against casters.

Or,

Human Monk 24/Pious Templar 1, worshiper of Bahamut. True Believer feat with Gauntlet of the Talon and Monks Belt: function as a level 35 Monk for most purposes. Ring of Sequestor, Ring of Freedom of Movement. That's SR 34, all saves are good, Mettle and Evasion, and most of your funds still available and only 2 spoken-for feats.

Even so, I'm not sure you'll be able to really compete well with a fully decked out caster; there are just so many options at 25th level for abuse.
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 11:17 PM Alright, I put together this really whacky build. Let me know what you think. I'm not amazing with rules, so if something doesn't work, let me know. I'm not sure if this is a house rule or a normal rule, but the DM allows skills to be progressed as class skills for double the points if it USED to be a class skill, but isn't one anymore. This allows me to make the skill level for Void Incarnate luckily.

Race: Human
Classes: Swashbuckler3/Ranger3/Rogue2/Dervish10/Templar1/Contemplative2/Void Incarnate4
Total ECL: 25

Here's how it works.

Start off with Rogue for the big skill benefits. I'm gonna need it since I'm purchasing a ton of out of class skill cost skills.
Rogue1: Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, Combat Expertise (Human), Dodge (Level)
Rogue2: Evasion

Move over to Swashbuckler...
Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse, WF Scimitar (Level)
Swashbuckler2: Grace +1
Swashbuckler3: Insightful Strike

Now we head over to Ranger...

Ranger1: Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Mobility (Level)
Ranger2: Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting)
Ranger3: Endurance

Now over toward the fun of the Dervish...

Dervish1: DD 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, Another Feat (Level Feat)
Dervish2: Fast Movement +5ft
Dervish3: Spring Attack, DD 2/day
Dervish4: Dance of Death, Another Feat (Level Feat)
Dervish5: Fast Movement +10ft, DD 3/day
Dervish6: Improved Reaction
Dervish7: Elaborate Parry, DD 4/day, Another Feat (Level Feat)
Dervish8: Fast Movement +15ft
Dervish9: Tireless Dance, DD 5/day
Dervish10: A Thousand Cuts, Another Feat (Level Feat)

But now I've been pumping cross class skills in Knowledge Religion. So I make sure I worship a Diety that uses Scimitar's and can finally reach enough ranks for...

Templar1: Weapon Specialization, Mettle

Luckily this gets me enough additional ranks of Knowledge Religion so I can finally finish things off and get Slippery Mind, which I need for the Void Disciple by getting...

Contemplative1: Prestige Domain (Mysticism), Divine Health
Contemplative2: Slippery Mind, Another Feat (Level Feat)

Now, after a ton of cross class skills spent I can finally get the skills of 24 for...

VoidIncarnate1: Blank Aura
VoidIncarnate2: Improved Evasion
VoidIncarnate3: Void Presence, Another Feat (Level Feat)
VoidIncarnate4: Mettle of Fortitude

I'd like to think that this build, along with those lovely Souldrinking Puncturing Scimitars of ass kicking would do fairly well against casters. Here's some of the things it gets...

Intelligence to Damage
Possibly no Damage/Effect on Reflex Spells and Half even if he fails (Evasion and Improved Evasion)
Possibly no Damage/Effect on Fortitude and Will spells (Mettle and Mettle of Fortitude)
A favored enemy (probably Humans)
All of those many MANY fantastic Dervish Abilities including making the Scimitar a light weapon so he can add his Int to the damage for it, getting the Cleave feat while dancing, and much more
Weapon Specialization in Scimitars
Immunity to All Diseases
Gets to add Charisma to saves via Mysticism Domain (nice)
Slippery Mind of Course
Of course people often forget he's there with Void Presence allowing him to use his 1d6 sneak attack (kinda pointless, but hey, what the heck, more damage is more damage)
Have his targets not be able to use their Dex bonus to AC is nice too
Himself and all of his equipment is basically cloaked and gives off no aura ("Damn it, which piece of magic equipment is giving you true seeing! Tell me!" "I'm not wearing any magic equipment...")

Beyond that, I also have 3 feats to play with, 2 normal and 1 Epic. I'm thinking of making hte 2 normal finish off the Two-handed Weapon route, and the Epic be Perfect Two-handed weapon. He would attack many many times around, and once a day twice that amount for many many more.

How's the build look? Also, can anyone suggest a good polymorph form with more then 2 arms that would work for a build like this? I need to keep all of my equipment, wield the scimitars, but I'd also like a Rod of Absorption in a hand for those nasty mages.
horndgod
08-23-04, 11:34 PM Actually, with 25 levels to work with, it would be hard to go wrong with a Iaijutsu Master/ Dervish. Forget the last 5 levels of Iaijutsu Master even and throw in the Shadowwalker template and Teflammer Shadowlord and get off an insane amount of attacks after shadow pouncing. The initiative should be on the side of the fighter type.
Ironbeer
08-23-04, 11:59 PM Unfortunately the Iaijutsu Master was banned for this Arena. It was one of the very few classes that was.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 02:56 AM	Previously I was looking to put together a build for an Epic Arena my friend is doing. The post can be found here... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=296762 But, in the spirit of doing something different, I really wanted to try something other then the old Wizard's, Incantrix's, Cleric's, etc. The problem is, without any real trials myself I wouldn't know, can Epic Fighters (ECL 25 in this instance) even compare to Epic Spellcasters? With the obsene maneuverability/AC/abilities/answers to situations most Casters have at their fingertips, can any melee build (that has nothing to do with Psionics since it's not allowed) actually compare in combat? Most casters can just polymorph into something awesome, use some spells for incredible AC and attack, and destroy any fighter, from the matches I've seen. Does anyone happen to know any Fighter builds (they can be a combo of Mage/Fighter, but not pure Mage) that actually have a chance at killing crazy Epic spellcasters? You can check out my other post for the conditions of the Arena. Luckily Fighters have one thing going for them, all Epic spells are banned.
Ipsissimus 08-23-04, 04:01 AM	Without reading the link... Staying power, simply put. An epic fighter type can usually go through more encounters than an epic caster. Granted an epic fighter geared to defeat casters will have an easier time as well as an epic caster would have geared to defeating a fighter type. Prepartation. In our last campaign my paladin and our wizard were the power houses of the group. We had come to the conclusion that it all depended on who was able to go first. A devastating attack dealing so much damage the wizard would be forced to compensate with defensive or movement spells rather than straight offense, or if the wizard was given enough time to spell up he would easily take down the paladin. One attack from horseback with my lance could take him down to 1/4 of his hps. If I crit he would simply be dead. Same if I failed any of his save or die spells, but once he started casting defensive spells, to make him harder to hit or reach everything else will just start to pile on and I would lose. I would favor the caster, since they have a very low threshold to survive in the beginning they more than make up for it once they start to get 6th level spells and beyond. Once a caster gets to that lvl and is smart about it, would win hands down...if he was stupid or careless the fighter could over take him in one or two rounds easily.
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 04:10 AM	I know the environment in which it all happens counts for alot of every character's effectiveness. Of course, in this Arena game it's obviously impossible to catch any Caster unaware. You are both teleported into the Arena, get two full rounds of preparations (casting spells, drinking potions, etc) and then the Gong sounds and the match begins. By the time those two rounds are over, almost every caster I've seen has done the classic Time Stop/buff themselves to hell gig. So now they're not exactly bearer's of "little HPs" since all of them Polymorph into some form with many more HPs then their own normal form. Just like you said, if he started getting the chance to cast defensive spells (which the casters in the Arena do) you would lose. But is there any build that has a chance?
glowworm 08-23-04, 04:53 AM	any of those immune to dammage builds might have a chance but i dont know those wizards are crafty. in short above lv 11 there is nothing a fighter type can do that a wizard cant do better faster and meaner in epic it is a hands down no contest the magic user type will win every time. nuf said.
scrollreader 08-23-04, 06:52 AM	You could try for a null damage build. Something like a Wartroll (from the WotC sneak preview of the MM3 with Hexblade/Dragon Disciple (Black) and a ring of evasion. That would allow you to regenerate all damage, and ignore any sort of spell with a save on a sucessful save. Alternatively, a Ranger/Hexblade/Foe Hunter might be the ticket. Play a drow for really high SR (which would stack with the foe hunter's) and the ability to get evasion from ranger, and mettle from hexblade for a similar effect. With resonating resistance (from a spell storing ring, say) you can seriously wreck a spellcaster's day, since he has to beat your (boosted) SR /twice/ and then have you fail a save to affect you. A rather unlikely series of events. Another option of note is the master archer. Use The deepwood sniper/Peerless Archer to truestrike/PA the spellcaster, possibly adding in the archer class from RoS. With the right mobility options, you may be able to hit for high amounts of damage, and get enough distance from the spellcaster to actually outrange him. Just some options here from my PoV. PS If allowed, by all means take Leadership. The absolute best cohort is a Master Alchemist from MoF. They can brew up to 9th level potions. There's no reason the timestop buffing fun needs to restricted to casters. :devil: PPS Use poison. A good Int/Wix poison is fun to smack spellcasters around with. With the Deepwood sniper build above you get poison use, and with multi-attack, that's alot of saves for the caster to make. It's feeblmind with a fort save! On an arrow. :P
Vodalen 08-23-04, 07:42 AM	Not really. That said, you might have a chance with something like an optimized Frenzied berserker of iajutsu master. Emphasis on might, especially with the two rounds of buffing. Spell resistance will help, but even if you manage to get it high enough so that no equal ECL caster can effectively penetrate it, there are plenty of alternatives that bypass SR all together. Maybe something along the lines of: Half-Minotaur White Dragonspawn Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale Racial HD 3/Hexblade 3/Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berzerker10 That's only a level 20 build, not sure what epic FB is like. Buy magebane manacles, which give permanent antimagic field for only 132k. Dragonspawn gives you some speed, FB gives you survivability from HP damage(and there's not much they'll be able to do to you in an AM field) and the ability to cut a finger-waggling dress-wearer in half when all of his pretty protective spells disappear. Hexblade is in there for mettle, which is an (ex) ability, but you could easily substitute it for something else. Baleen whale and half-minotaur give you +12 str, which you'll need since you won't be able to use items to boost it. Figure 18 starting, +12 racial modifiers, +5 level, +5 tome, you'll have 40 strength at level 20 and 18 BAB. Or maybe a Half-Minotaur Werebear Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale with VoP. (LA +3)Monst. Humanoid 3/Animal 6/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 10/ Sure, you don't get any epic bonus feats, but who cares. Frenzying and raging at ECL 25, you'd have 73 strength when raging and frenzied in an Antimagic field. Since you can't wear armor in hybrid form, or with VoP, your AC will stink, but you'll still be all but unkillable.
Cornbread 08-23-04, 09:55 AM	Check the Book of Vile Darkness for their sweet list of high DC poisons. Colossal Scorpion poison has a DC54, if I recall. I'm not sure on the DCs of int/wis/cha poisons. Another option is to look at builds that give you a high number of melee attacks and mix it with a souleating/wounding weapon. Doing con damage and negative levels on every hit rocks. A dervish with a pair of Souleating Spell Storing (Poison) Scimitars of Puncturing (Modified Rapier of Puncturing in the DMG) with a high DC con poison applied to them would eat through pretty much anything. Things you will need to keep in mind is your lack of ability to overcome versatility. You will need to be able to: become ethereal fly close large distances quickly resist/absorb/turn spells nullify enemy defensive magic have a catch-all in case your plan goes wrong and you need to regroup I suggest an item that creates antimagic in case you can't close fast enough, some spell storing rings with mords DJ, a rod of absorption, ring of spell turning, item with SR, save boost item, armor of etherealness, and winged boots.
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 12:59 PM	The Dervish sounds pretty neat, assuming I can get the attack high enough to actually hit most buffed caster's AC's (from what I've seen they're about 50-70). Unfortunately no matter what, it's a house rule that SR caps out at 37 (12+characters ECL which is 25). Anthropomorphic characters are also not allowed, unfortunately.
Cornbread 08-23-04, 01:52 PM	The Rapier of Puncturing (in this case scimitar) allows you to make 3 attacks per day as touch attacks that do 1d6con each. That should take care of that. I'll bet we can get your attack up plenty for that. Throw in quick draw and buy four of them for a (almost) guaranteed 12d6 con damage in one round. Averages out to 42 con damage. I'll see about putting a more specific build up with some equipment when I get back to my books later tonight.
Thannin 08-23-04, 02:03 PM	Ill reiterate the FB build. Take magic items to allow you to fly (winged mask), avoid damage(ring of evasion), avoid hold/web spells(ring of freedom of movement), get close(greater vestments of power(magic of Faerun) allows for unlimited d-door), see through the illusions(greater vestments of power do the trick(true seeing)), and other utility spells(armor,weapons,etc). Take feats that prevent spellcasting when next to him and stick to him like glue.(Mage killer from Miniatures handbook is uber). Take prestige classes to enhance your raging ability. Example: Fighter 2/barbarian 2/ranger 2/FB 10/Bear warrior 1/war shaper 3/xx uber prestige class 5. It will allow you to use a spiked chain, have additional reach, threaten from a distance(closer if needed so he cant five foot step), and allow you to use mage killer to the best ability. Using the FB deathless frenzy, he cannot kill you until your rage wears off. Assuming a huge con from rage/frenzy/items, your rage will last absolutely forever. 1. you cant die until your rage is gone 2. he cant forecage you(d-door) 3. he cant fly outta your reach(winged mask) 4. he cant cast defensively 5. you have good saves 6. you do tremendous damage 7. You can smash his face in while he realizes he fails casting defensively. Killing epic level wizards is extremely hard and even I have not taken into account every possible spell. But depending on how stupid the other players are and how smart you are it is very possible as shown. Enjoy
Myer Lynk 08-23-04, 02:46 PM	Well you all have me curious how is a wizard gonna get him self up there with buff spells to the point where a fighter can't hit him?? but otherwise for the topic, if you are fighting in the arena with the same ecl and everything all the spellcaster has to do is get a lucky shot off and hit you with a few prismatic sprays or what have you and then throw up a prismatic sphere (ohhhh the colors) anywho maybe multiclassing would be a good idea get a nice powerful dispel magic or greater dispelling?? and you can take the mage down a notch right?
acvar 08-23-04, 03:58 PM	It seems to me that a combo of anti magic field, a form with wings, and a melee build should do quite well vs. any spellcaster. Just pick a race that has a good flight speed and manuvarability give him a magic item with anti magic field and go to town.
Mirror-Image 08-23-04, 05:53 PM	except the opponent is an initiat of mystra with a very high caster level, so that your antimagic field doesnt work against him (he probably will have a persistant antimagic field by himselfe :rolleyes: )
Elgonn 08-23-04, 06:12 PM	An Epic Fighter can compete but only at levels 40+.
foxylady 08-23-04, 06:42 PM	I would argue that Epic fighters are relatively better than non-Epic fighters, when compared to Epic spellcasters. Epic spells themselves are unsuitable in combat, and an Epic spellcaster's improved ability to use metamagic on non-Epic spells (compared to a non-Epic caster) does not improve a spellcaster's abilities as much as Epic feats improve a fighter's.
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 08:37 PM	That would be cool, I look forward to the build Cornbread. I'm trying to put together a build myself, but I'm really trying to get 4 levels of Void Incarnate at the end, the problem is getting the skills required for Void Incarnate. If I want Dervish, it doesn't have the Hide or Bluff skill needed for Void Incarnaten (VI Needs a 24 in Hide, Bluff, and Escape Artist). So it seems I can't have Dervish and Void Incarnate together, which is a bummer.
Averien 08-23-04, 08:37 PM	Dwarf White Dragonspawn Fighter 4/Paladin 2/Deepwarden 2/Master Thrower 5/Templar 1/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Platinum Knight 5/Witch Hunter 2/Spellsword 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 1 This get's you full BAB, Cha to saves x3- which makes a Cloak of Charisma a really, really nice item, 2nd level Sorcerer spells (Put the Witch Hunter and Platinum Knight levels to it from White Dragonspawn), flight speed, mettle, evasion. With the Axe Thrower feat, you don't need to worry about dex at all: Str to hit with thrown weapons, Con to AC. Vassal of Bahamut gives you Platinum Armor- best armor in the game, period. Max out your Con, Str, and Cha as much as possible with this build, in that order. You only need to get a ranged touch attack to hit them, and if you can get a Ring of Sequester, they get no Dex against you, either. With a Ring of Freedom of Movement to round things off, you should be pretty good to go, or at least as good to go as you can be against casters. Or, Human Monk 24/Pious Templar 1, worshiper of Bahamut. True Believer feat with Gauntlet of the Talon and Monks Belt: function as a level 35 Monk for most purposes. Ring of Sequestor, Ring of Freedom of Movement. That's SR 34, all saves are good, Mettle and Evasion, and most of your funds still available and only 2 spoken-for feats. Even so, I'm not sure you'll be able to really compete well with a fully decked out caster; there are just so many options at 25th level for abuse.
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 11:17 PM	Alright, I put together this really whacky build. Let me know what you think. I'm not amazing with rules, so if something doesn't work, let me know. I'm not sure if this is a house rule or a normal rule, but the DM allows skills to be progressed as class skills for double the points if it USED to be a class skill, but isn't one anymore. This allows me to make the skill level for Void Incarnate luckily. Race: Human Classes: Swashbuckler3/Ranger3/Rogue2/Dervish10/Templar1/Contemplative2/Void Incarnate4 Total ECL: 25 Here's how it works. Start off with Rogue for the big skill benefits. I'm gonna need it since I'm purchasing a ton of out of class skill cost skills. Rogue1: Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, Combat Expertise (Human), Dodge (Level) Rogue2: Evasion Move over to Swashbuckler... Swashbuckler1: Weapon Finesse, WF Scimitar (Level) Swashbuckler2: Grace +1 Swashbuckler3: Insightful Strike Now we head over to Ranger... Ranger1: Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Mobility (Level) Ranger2: Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting) Ranger3: Endurance Now over toward the fun of the Dervish... Dervish1: DD 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, Another Feat (Level Feat) Dervish2: Fast Movement +5ft Dervish3: Spring Attack, DD 2/day Dervish4: Dance of Death, Another Feat (Level Feat) Dervish5: Fast Movement +10ft, DD 3/day Dervish6: Improved Reaction Dervish7: Elaborate Parry, DD 4/day, Another Feat (Level Feat) Dervish8: Fast Movement +15ft Dervish9: Tireless Dance, DD 5/day Dervish10: A Thousand Cuts, Another Feat (Level Feat) But now I've been pumping cross class skills in Knowledge Religion. So I make sure I worship a Diety that uses Scimitar's and can finally reach enough ranks for... Templar1: Weapon Specialization, Mettle Luckily this gets me enough additional ranks of Knowledge Religion so I can finally finish things off and get Slippery Mind, which I need for the Void Disciple by getting... Contemplative1: Prestige Domain (Mysticism), Divine Health Contemplative2: Slippery Mind, Another Feat (Level Feat) Now, after a ton of cross class skills spent I can finally get the skills of 24 for... VoidIncarnate1: Blank Aura VoidIncarnate2: Improved Evasion VoidIncarnate3: Void Presence, Another Feat (Level Feat) VoidIncarnate4: Mettle of Fortitude I'd like to think that this build, along with those lovely Souldrinking Puncturing Scimitars of ass kicking would do fairly well against casters. Here's some of the things it gets... Intelligence to Damage Possibly no Damage/Effect on Reflex Spells and Half even if he fails (Evasion and Improved Evasion) Possibly no Damage/Effect on Fortitude and Will spells (Mettle and Mettle of Fortitude) A favored enemy (probably Humans) All of those many MANY fantastic Dervish Abilities including making the Scimitar a light weapon so he can add his Int to the damage for it, getting the Cleave feat while dancing, and much more Weapon Specialization in Scimitars Immunity to All Diseases Gets to add Charisma to saves via Mysticism Domain (nice) Slippery Mind of Course Of course people often forget he's there with Void Presence allowing him to use his 1d6 sneak attack (kinda pointless, but hey, what the heck, more damage is more damage) Have his targets not be able to use their Dex bonus to AC is nice too Himself and all of his equipment is basically cloaked and gives off no aura ("Damn it, which piece of magic equipment is giving you true seeing! Tell me!" "I'm not wearing any magic equipment...") Beyond that, I also have 3 feats to play with, 2 normal and 1 Epic. I'm thinking of making hte 2 normal finish off the Two-handed Weapon route, and the Epic be Perfect Two-handed weapon. He would attack many many times around, and once a day twice that amount for many many more. How's the build look? Also, can anyone suggest a good polymorph form with more then 2 arms that would work for a build like this? I need to keep all of my equipment, wield the scimitars, but I'd also like a Rod of Absorption in a hand for those nasty mages.
horndgod 08-23-04, 11:34 PM	Actually, with 25 levels to work with, it would be hard to go wrong with a Iaijutsu Master/ Dervish. Forget the last 5 levels of Iaijutsu Master even and throw in the Shadowwalker template and Teflammer Shadowlord and get off an insane amount of attacks after shadow pouncing. The initiative should be on the side of the fighter type.
Ironbeer 08-23-04, 11:59 PM	Unfortunately the Iaijutsu Master was banned for this Arena. It was one of the very few classes that was.