Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Double M 12-11-06, 11:20 AM	Hey all, Our group needs a secondary melee guy and a blaster for our next campaign (Shackled City) and I'm the only player left, so I was hoping to make some sort of Gish. I've been looking at Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champ 5/Eldritch Knight 8 as a possibility or something using Jade Pheonix Mage from Tome of Battle, but I rolled my stats yesterday and they are pretty poor for a MAD gish: 16, 15, 12, 11, 8, 7 We are allowed flaws, but they are randomly generated and I ended up with inattentive (not too bad) and frail (-1 hp per level) pretty sucky for a fighter type with 6d4+8d6+6d10 (avg. 76-yuck) and a likely low con. I don't have to take the flaw, but there seem to be so many feats needed for gish that it seems a good idea. What are your thoughts Does anyone have any ideas about a survivable build given my poor stats that still gets me 9th level spells and a decent BAB? I have access to Completes, Races of, BoED, Spell Compendium, and Tome of Battle, but NO setting specific stuff and nothing other than flaws from UA. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks
Timlagor 12-11-06, 12:39 PM	I'm guessing that Inattentive penalises Spot/Listen and/or Initiative. A Gish is not really a Blaster. Blasting is generally a bad strategy anyway. However a gish is a damage dealer (almost invariably in melee). Your Attributes aren't that bad. Not great but it is a 24pb. Prioritise: Str, Int, Con, Dex Wis and Cha will just have to suffer. I'd leave off the Frail if you do persist in this route -Feats are important and tight but not that tight. Make sure you cast Empowered False Lifes. There might well be something nifty you could do from ToB but I haven't read it thoroughly enough to know. Is there some reason not to take Spellsword 1?
aziraphale60 12-11-06, 01:00 PM	i'm not sure if all the prerequisites fit exactly, although i think they do, but why not: warblade1/wizard6/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage7 BAB 17 Caster Level 17 or If you just want 16 BAB you could do Warblade1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage6/Mindbender1 so you have BAB 16 Caster Level 18 or for both BAB and higher caster level Warblade1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage6/Dragonslayer1 BAB 17 Caster Level 18
GaffeR 12-11-06, 01:08 PM	As was mentioned above, a Gish doesn't really focus on blasting. You can do alright for yourself if you simply abuse Polymorph to negate the poor physical qualities of your character. Warblade 1/Wiz 5/JPM X/Spellsword 1/Abj Cha Y (where X + Y = 13) Edit: Don't take the frail flaw. Also, Druids are quite capable of blasting and melee damage. Not sure if that's what you want though.
Double M 12-11-06, 02:03 PM	It sounds like folks are in agreement that frail is a bad idea, but inattentive (with its -4 to spot and listen checks) doesn't seem too bad. We already have a two divine casters, but somehow, neither one is building a real melee type, so Druid is out (plus I just finished playing a druid). Also, our DM doesn't allow polymorph spectrum spells at all, so my melee capabilities will have to come from other sources. Do others agree that my stats should go: Str, Int, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha? I would have thought Int first so that I can actually cast those 9th level spells, eventually.
GaffeR 12-11-06, 02:18 PM	Dwarf Fighter 1/Wiz 4/Runesmith 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK... Str 16 Dex 11 Con 14 (12+2) Int 15 (all bumps) Wis 8 Cha 5 (7-2) Not the best rolls, but playable (if not gruff and of poor judgement). Could swap Fighter for Crusader, or for Warblade (and take a feat) then jump into JPM.
SmiloDan 12-16-06, 03:36 PM	I would go Warlock with Weapon Finesse and Hideous Blow. Max out Consitution and Dexterity, and dump stat your Strength and Charisma. Just pick invocations that don't have saves. Maybe Dwarf, or some other Con-boosting race. If Races of Eberron is allowed, maybe Shifter or Warforged. I'm currently playing a human ranger 1/warlock 10 (or 11?) in a shared-world World Serpent Inn plane hopping campaign, and I'm surprised at how versatile the warlock is, even with its limited number of invocations. I can be a ranged combatant, or be a secondary tank using my greatsword (stolen from githyanki) and hideous blow.
X-Codes 12-16-06, 04:07 PM	You can make my Sublime Swordsage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424) pretty powerful with the following array: 8 Str, 15 Dex, 12 Con, 11 Int, 7* Wis, 16 Cha *I strongly recommend taking the Pathetic flaw to reduce Wisdom and instead pick up the Force of Personality feat from Complete Adventurer.
Lilt 12-16-06, 04:56 PM	You can make my Sublime Swordsage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10178720&postcount=424) pretty powerful with the following array: 8 Str, 15 Dex, 12 Con, 11 Int, 7* Wis, 16 Cha *I strongly recommend taking the Pathetic flaw to reduce Wisdom and instead pick up the Force of Personality feat from Complete Adventurer.Note that force of personality only works against mind-affecting stuff. I's of no use against things like Harm, Curse, or anything else with a will save that doesn't have the mind-affecting subtype (includes most illusions and most non-enchantment spwlls with will saves). It is also useless once you get mind blank or similar.
X-Codes 12-16-06, 05:19 PM	Note that force of personality only works against mind-affecting stuff. I's of no use against things like Harm, Curse, or anything else with a will save that doesn't have the mind-affecting subtype (includes most illusions and most non-enchantment spwlls with will saves). It is also useless once you get mind blank or similar. Honestly, thats a lot of stuff that you really shouldn't be alarmed about. Harm sucks, yeah, but Curses are breakable (Break Enchantment is on your spell list), illusions can be negated in other ways (If someone proves to you that an illusion is fake, you get a nice bonus, and you do end up with a very high base Will Save modifier), and most of the rest of the stuff doesn't directly harm you. Finally, Mind Blank doesn't come into play until a long ways into the game (like last 20% later). Seriously, Force of Personality will block the early-game Will Save threats which helps streamline the build.
chifari 12-16-06, 05:46 PM	You can't go Warblade/Wizard/Spellsword without taking heavy armor proficiency as a feat. Personally, I prefer Crusader to Warblade anyway. Warblade does more damage, but Crusader meshes with Jade Phoenix Mage a lot better. Crusader also does a better job at offsetting Gish weaknesses; you can heal yourself a lot at low levels. As long as you don't get one-shotted, your effective hps are just much higher with Martial Spirit. Something like Fighter 1[Armored Mage]/Wizard 1-2/Crusader 1/Wizard 3-4/Spellsword 1 is my preferred beginning to Gishes now. * No ASF in light armor ever. * Proficiency in heavy armor (crusader). * 5 *good* maneuvers by delaying Crusader until IL 3. * The ability to use Crusader 2 or Spellsword 2 to nab a stance if needed (Thicket of Blades, for example). What I love most about this build is how great it is at battlefield control. Take EWP:Spiked Chain+Combat Reflexes, Stone Power, Thicket of Blades+Defensive Rebuke+Repelling Shield, and just control the whole battlefield. Stone Dragon strikes work amazingly well for the AOO build. Crushing Vise (level 6) is well worth taking a feat to get at high levels; being able to immobilize targets with no saving throw is incredible. The idea behind the build is just to activate arcane strike and wraithstrike and attack once with some monster strike (that also does something useful like heal or give yourself DR or immobilize), then just sit there and take AOOs until your next turn rolls around. At low levels, Stone Power and Martial Spirit pretty much offset any weaknesses Gish have as far as hps/armor are concerned.
Lilt 12-16-06, 06:12 PM	Honestly, thats a lot of stuff that you really shouldn't be alarmed about. Harm sucks, yeah, but Curses are breakable (Break Enchantment is on your spell list), illusions can be negated in other ways (If someone proves to you that an illusion is fake, you get a nice bonus, and you do end up with a very high base Will Save modifier), and most of the rest of the stuff doesn't directly harm you. Finally, Mind Blank doesn't come into play until a long ways into the game (like last 20% later). Seriously, Force of Personality will block the early-game Will Save threats which helps streamline the build.I'd still reccomend taking a look at what will saves are actually mind-affecting and which ones aren't. Giving yourself -1 on saves against all of them in exchange for your charisma modifier (+3 or 4) on a specific save set (almost exclusive to one spell school) isn't what I'd call fantastic. Note that -1 on will saves isn't the only thing that -2 wisdom gives you. It also makes you more liable to fall from wisdom damage/drain (can we say the CR3 Allip?) and lowers your spot/listen/sense-motive skills. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad, but I just think there are so many better things you can do if flaws are allowed so I wouldn't call it optimal.
X-Codes 12-16-06, 07:30 PM	I'd still reccomend taking a look at what will saves are actually mind-affecting and which ones aren't. Giving yourself -1 on saves against all of them in exchange for your charisma modifier (+3 or 4) on a specific save set (almost exclusive to one spell school) isn't what I'd call fantastic. It's not almost exclusive to one spell school. It takes up all of the offensive spells from the Enchantment school as well as most Patterns, Phantasms, and Fear spells and effects, and gives a net +5 bonus on them because it substitutes the modifier instead of adding it. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad, but I just think there are so many better things you can do if flaws are allowed so I wouldn't call it optimal. Flaws are hard to give to a gish, because theres almost always going to be a circumstance under which you're going to be adversely affected by them. The three I can see having minimal impact are Feeble, Inattentive, and Pathetic, and none of them have no impact at all. * No ASF in light armor ever. Thats not true. It only applies to 0th-2nd level spells. Above that, it applies normally.
Timespike 12-16-06, 07:50 PM	The dwarven spiked pillbox Race: Dwarf STR 16 DEX 7 CON 14 (12+2) INT 15 WIS 11 CHA 6 (8-2) Level 1 Dwarf Fighter 1 (Racial Substitution level) [Dwarven Armor Proficiency] Level 2 Wizard 1 [Scribe Scroll] Level 3 Wizard 2 [Exotic Shield Proficiency: Gauntlet Shield] Level 4 Wizard 3 Level 5 Wizard 4 Level 6 Runesmith 1 [Weapon Focus (Armor Spikes)] Level 7 Eldritch Knight 1 [Power Attack] Level 8 Eldritch Knight 2 Level 9 Abjurant Champion 1 [Weapon Focus (Shield Spikes)] Level 10 Abjurant Champion 2 Level 11 Abjurant Champion 3 Level 12 Abjurant Champion 4 [Blood-Spiked Charger] Level 13 Abjurant Champion 5 Level 14 Eldritch Knight 3 Level 15 Eldritch Knight 4 [Smiting Spell] Level 16 Eldritch Knight 5 Level 17 Eldritch Knight 6 Level 18 Eldritch Knight 7 [Arcane Strike] Level 19 Eldritch Knight 8 Level 20 Eldritch Knight 9 BAB 17 Caster level 18 Your Equipment: Dwarven Waraxe Spiked Mithral Battle Plate Spiked Gauntlet Shield
chifari 12-16-06, 10:21 PM	Thats not true. It only applies to 0th-2nd level spells. Above that, it applies normally. I have Spellsword by then (Fighter 1/Wiz 2/Crusader 1/Wiz 3-4/Spellsword 1). Why I like the build.