Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LiamDeclan 12-03-05, 08:54 PM	Can anyone take this challenge to make a level 7 Gestalt min/max warrior and a spellcaster type? Any books can be used and I would rather not have LA races or templates. gold pieces are limited to 19k.
AramilWindwalker 12-03-05, 10:01 PM	do you want them seperately, or like a gish? what books are allowed? any particular idea more specific you want to have? these sorts of things make life easier for us.
DavidWL 12-03-05, 11:48 PM	Without too much thought ... (variation on an old theme): Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 1/Bone Knight 2-10/Blackguard 2/Any 2 Feat Rogue 2/Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Bone Knight 1/Any core 15 1 Paladin/Feat Rogue 2 Paladin/Feat Rogue 3 Hexblade/Cleric 4 Hexblade/Fighter 5 Hexblade/Bone Knight 6 Ur-Priest/Fighter 7 Bone Knight/Warlock 8 Bone Knight/Half-Elf Paragon 9 Bone Knight/Half-Elf Paragon 10 Bone Knight/Half-Elf Paragon 11 Bone Knight/Human Paragon 12 Bone Knight/Human Paragon 13 Bone Knight/Human Paragon 14 Bone Knight/Fighter 15 Bone Knight/Fighter 16 Bone Knight/Fighter 17 Blackguard/Fighter 18 Blackguard/Fighter 19 Heir of Siberys/Fighter 20 Heir of Siberys/Fighter Really, though, this is just a variation on the good 'ol boneknight build: Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Blackguard 2/Full BAB 1 The point of the above build is: Having ok casting (casting as Ur-Priest 10 => 9th level divine spells) Being an ok fighter (with good HP, 16 BAB) Being *very* tough, with tons of immunities, CHA to Saves ~3 times, Mettle (and evasion if you can get it -- shadow creature template with LA buyoff) The gestalt version just adds a few levels of rogue for the evasion and skills, and more levels of fighter for the feats (to make you a mean combat machine via nasty feat combos). Also adds warlock to boost the Ur-Priest casting level and add a few cool abilities. Best, David EDIT: If you have to worry about Exp penalties, you have to cut out the 3rd level of Hexblade.
Seerow 12-03-05, 11:50 PM	Why so many fighter levels and so few feat rogue? Id say, especially in a gestalt setting where the BAB and HD penalties are verymuch slackened, the Feat Rogue trumps Fighter as far as gaining more than two levels goes.
Slyver 12-04-05, 05:29 AM	In an effort to make the dragon diciple effective instead of just interestingly flavorful I came up with this very nice Gestalt gish. The final BAB and saves are dependent on how your group figures those things. I will list them as if you add up the total of each side each level and take the highest i.e. one side has an ending bab of 11, the other has an ending BAB of 17. Because of this line of reasoning I have moved certain classes from one side to another at various times to maximize saves. Of course if you do it differently such as take the best of whichever each level I am sure it can be maximized to much better effect with some minimal shifting. Race: human Primary stats (in order): Cha, Str level side1/side2 feats 1 sorcerer/paladin power attack, improved bull rush 2 sorcerer/paladin 3 sorcerer/paladin Divine might 4 sorcerer/paladin 5 spellsword/fighter leap attack (CAdv) 6 dragon diciple/sorcerer 7 sorcerer/dragon diciple 8 sorcerer/dragon diciple 9 sorcerer/dragon diciple shock trooper (CW) 10 sorcerer/dragon diciple 11 sorcerer/dragon diciple 12 sorcerer/dragon diciple extra smite 13 sorcerer/dragon diciple 14 sorcerer/dragon dicple 15 sorcerer/dragon dicple quicken breath (Draconomicon) 16 half dragon paragon/fighter improved sunder 17 sorcerer/spellsword combat brute (CW) 18 half dragon paragon/spellsword maximize breath or split breath or cleave or improved initiative 19 sorcerer/spellsword 20 half dragon paragon/spellsword BAB 17 Sorcerer caster level 19 (add cha mod and other appropriate ability mod to saves) Fort 14 Ref 4 Will 17 This guy is a monster on a charge with the power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, combat brute synergy. Throw in a divine might, arcane strike, and smite if you wish (all free actions) for amazing charges (not that charges are necessarily the best time to use those abilities unless you can full attack on a charge (spell or item ability or pounce ability (eg. shapechage))). The rest of the time he is just a run of the mill melee monster/badass sorcerer. At lower levels use leap attack, power attack and shock trooper (and maybe smite evil) for charges and arcane strike and/or divine might for melee, or maybe just cast a nice spell. He also gets the awesome channel spell ability from spellsword, can cast in heavy armor, seven bonus spell slots to cast spells or fuel arcane strike (from thrid level to seventh level spells) charisma to saves (and attack and damage with use of divine might and/or smite evil) and all the nice half dragon template abilities and extra breath weapons from half dragon paragon.. I haven't min/maxed all the spells for this character, although the upper level feats for dragon breath, namely quicken breath is designed for the rather nice dragon breath spells from the draconomicon such as; dispelling breath and blinding breath. Open combat with your 6d8 (or 48 damage if maximized) dragon breath in a 30' cone (should be gold or silver dragon) and permanently blind or strip all the buffs off your opponents. A slight problem with this build is its minor multiple attribute dependency. with a 32 point buy I would do this: Str 16 dex 10 Con 14 int 10 wis 10 cha 16 This really is the minimum for this build to be effective I dont know if you have stats yet but optimally stats would look more like this: str 18 dex 12 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 18 You need the skill points. Required skills are 8 jump for leap attack and 6/8 knowledge arcana for spellsword and dragon diciple respectively. You also need to keep concentration maxed, as for any spell caster so you really cant survive with a negative mod in intelligence. Slyver
colm_l 12-04-05, 05:55 AM	Did up a gestalt gish for someone recently - turned out not to be what he wanted but it may be a good base for you: http://www.geocities.com/colm_lowery/Bladesinger.xls Replace the bladesinger with another Gish class (Knight Phantom is solid) & the Weapon master with any other fighter class. You should have a bucket load of feats you can change without those classes & without the other feats he wanted (13 feats free to be changed). 6 attacks a round isn't too shabby (actually you can up it by 2 more if you use the fighter: Kensai variant from Dragon 310 if you want) Take two weapon fighting feats & you can get a fairly impressive 11 attacks pre-epic & a pretty hefty 16 attacks with P.T.F
Slyver 12-04-05, 03:26 PM	colm_l: I looked at your class and while some of the ideas have merit, there are some problems with it. First, depending on how your group calclultes BAB and saves they may not be that high, although I can get 19 bab with a couple minor class shifts from one side to the other. Second, while I see how you got the 6 attacks, and 9 with the two weapon fighting tree if you count unarmed strike as your off-hand attacks (where you don't get to add dex to damage from CoCL), I am not seeing 11 (maybe I am blind). Also, what is P.T.F? Third, no matter how hard I look, I can't find 20 caster levels. The bladesinger in 3.5 gives half caster progression. In 3.0 it used its own spell list. Your caster level is 15. Taking out bladesinger and adding in EK or phantom knight will solve the caster level problem (19 total), but then you are relying on wis for AC, dex for damage and AC and Int for damage and spell casting. Of course with any fighter you still need at least SOME con, and a bit of str is always nice. Regardless of if you dump cha and keep str at ten you are still needing 3 big stats to be effective. Good builds, while they can benefit greatly from decent stats in other areas shouldn't rely on needing to pump more than two stats at most. I didn't look to hard for other issues, although I did notice no monted combat for entry into the CoCL. Easily fixed though. You should take it back to the drawing board. It has some nice ideas and could probably be further optimized (such as taking a caster class on the other side of bladesinger when it loses caster levels as one example). Of course, if you decide to wear the armor from the bladesinger ability you can cut down on wis and focus more on int and dex. You lose out on two of the monks best features though, namely, wis to AC and stunning fist (well, the dc wont be high enough to be reliable anyways). Its a possible trade off. Slyver
LiamDeclan 12-04-05, 09:36 PM	Did up a gestalt gish for someone recently - turned out not to be what he wanted but it may be a good base for you: http://www.geocities.com/colm_lowery/Bladesinger.xls Replace the bladesinger with another Gish class (Knight Phantom is solid) & the Weapon master with any other fighter class. You should have a bucket load of feats you can change without those classes & without the other feats he wanted (13 feats free to be changed). 6 attacks a round isn't too shabby (actually you can up it by 2 more if you use the fighter: Kensai variant from Dragon 310 if you want) Take two weapon fighting feats & you can get a fairly impressive 11 attacks pre-epic & a pretty hefty 16 attacks with P.T.F Very nice stuff. I really like how you did the Excel format for the character. Sylver is correct about the Caster level being only 15 in 3.5 now.
LiamDeclan 12-04-05, 09:38 PM	What is the Phantom Knight and Bone Knight and where can I find them?
Slyver 12-04-05, 11:18 PM	Very nice stuff. I really like how you did the Excel format for the character. Sylver is correct about the Caster level being only 15 in 3.5 now. Yes, I found your format interesting. When it first opened up I thought I had accidentally opened up a gestalt character I was working on. It wasn't just a similar format, it was EXACTLY the same as my format. All the columns in the exact same place, same way of figuring out bab and saves, etc.. LiamDeclan The Knight Phantom and Bone Knight are both found in Five Nations (pgs. 41 and 117 respectively). You can also find the Knight Phantom on the wizards site here: Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) If you give more details on what exactly you are looking for I would be happy to put some more thought into a build. Slyver
LiamDeclan 12-05-05, 12:29 AM	anything that is based on melee weapon combat
DavidWL 12-05-05, 12:43 AM	Why so many fighter levels and so few feat rogue? Id say, especially in a gestalt setting where the BAB and HD penalties are verymuch slackened, the Feat Rogue trumps Fighter as far as gaining more than two levels goes. I agree that Feat Rogue trumps fighter -- I was just keeping it a little simpler (and boosting bab a bit -- not because it matters that much in the end, but rather because I wanted the iterative attacks earlier). -- trying to stay focused on the original posters request for a tank. Truth be told, that isn't a build I would play -- I would want to do something more interesting with those extra levels of fighter. (I'm not quite sure what -- possibly feat rogue, but probably something more interesting).
Slyver 12-05-05, 01:50 AM	anything that is based on melee weapon combat Fighter 20/Wizard 20 does that, although it kinda sucks since you cant wear armor. So then you change it up a bit. Fighter 18/spellsword 2//wizard 17/spellsword 3 and now you can cast in armor with a stupid number of bonus feats (21 feats total, 22 if human) and channel spells through your sword (which can have some very useful effects other than the obvious damage it can do). From there it can be optimized even more. The paladin sorcerer half dragon I presented pretty much kicks total ass at all levels and against all archetypal opponents using mostly melee combat, with a few extra tricks up his sleeve, but I can completely understand if you dont like the flavor. This is why it is necessary to know more of what you want. Do you want to wield a big sword, couple small swords, couple big swords, be a mobile fighter with battlefield control with melee or with spells, jump from the shadows and stab Random_poor_shmuck_002 in the back and at his funeral seduce his wife, or play a seven foot tall warrior who shoots lightning bolts out his arse? There are so many ways to be effective, epecially with a gestalt gish, its like optimizing a regular character x10. That optimization starts with a character concept. In addition it would be useful to know your stats and how your group is calculating BAB and saves since there are a few ways to do it. DavidWL The bonuses from paladin go away as soon as you commit an evil act. It is pretty difficult to go from lawful good to any nongood (per hexblade) without commiting an evil act. Divine grace go bye-bye. Other than that it appears to be a decent build with quite a few tricks although a bit of MAD. Slyver
DavidWL 12-05-05, 08:01 AM	The bonuses from paladin go away as soon as you commit an evil act. It is pretty difficult to go from lawful good to any nongood (per hexblade) without commiting an evil act. Divine grace go bye-bye. Other than that it appears to be a decent build with quite a few tricks although a bit of MAD.Slyver Not true -- the Bone Knight gives most paladin abilities back to you. ("Paladin Conversion" - level 1 Bone Knight ability). It's true that it's a bit MAD. Alas, it isn't my build -- it's really one of the "iconic" Bone Knight builds that I've seen on the boards a couple of times.
LiamDeclan 12-05-05, 09:01 AM	Do you want to wield a big sword, couple small swords, couple big swords, be a mobile fighter with battlefield control with melee or with spells, jump from the shadows and stab Random_poor_shmuck_002 in the back and at his funeral seduce his wife, or play a seven foot tall warrior who shoots lightning bolts out his arse? In addition it would be useful to know your stats and how your group is calculating BAB and saves since there are a few ways to do it. Stats are roll 4d6 and reroll any 1's & 2's. So this is what I have to work with, 18,18,15,14,13,13 +1 for the 4th level ability adjustment. Flavor wise I have been playing a 3rd level Swashbuckler+levels of Fighter and other PrC's. Basically I am the light armored, Rapier type, stab someone in the back kinda player with this guy. Not a big fan of 2 weapon fighting. I love classes that give feats and other special attacks or abilities. I lean away from good aligned characters. Also we calculate the BAB with Gestalt by adding in fractions and rounding down, like in Unearthe Arcana.
Slyver 12-05-05, 11:36 AM	Now we are cooking with gas. Ok,a couple final qestions. Does your DM allow more than one prc to be taken at the same time? Which would you rate higher, offense or defense. (They will both be decent either way.) Slyver Edit: You said you don't like good, is evil ok or do you prefer something neutralish?