Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dain 02-06-05, 05:57 AM	I was looking over the Tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer. At first glance it all looks good, but then again - Two-weapon Fighting just isn't that great in 3.5 unless you've got some extra damage, like from Divine Might, Sneak Attack or Dervish Dance. Greatsword w. Power Attack trumphs 2WF most of the time, and costs much less feats. Furthermore, unless you're going to take 11 levels of Ranger you will suffer from severe MAD: You need a very high dex, and you can't cut down on strength or constitution. Anyway, I still set my mind on making a good build, and here's my take on the Tempest: Dwarf Ranger 2/Figther 4/Tempest 5/Rogue 3/Nightsong Enforcer 6 1) Ranger 1: 2x FEAT (Track, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe) 2) Ranger 2: FEAT (Two-Weapon Fighting) 3) Rgr 2/Ftr 1: 2x FEAT (Dodge, Mobility) 4) Rgr 2/Ftr 2: FEAT (Spring Attack) 5) Rgr 2/Ftr 3: 6) Rgr 2/Ftr 4: 2x FEAT (WS: Dwarven Waraxe, Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting) 7) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 1: AC +1 8) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 2: Ambidexterity (-1) 9) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 3: FEAT (Improved Initiative), AC +2, Two-Weapon Versatility 10) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 4: Ambidexterity (-0) 11) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5: AC +3, Two-Weapon Spring Attack 12) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 1: FEAT (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting),+1d6 SA 13) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 2: Evasion 14) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3: +2d6 SA 15) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 1: FEAT (Improved Toughness), +3d6 SA 16) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 2: Agility Training 17) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 3: Skill Teamwork +2 18) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 4: FEAT (IC: Dwarven Waraxe), +4d6 SA 19) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 5: Flanking Teamwork 20) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 5/Rog 3/NE 6: Opportunist HP: 7d8 + 9d10 + 3d6 + 8 = 99,5 + (20x Con. mod.) + 20 (Imp. Toughness Feat) Saves: Fortitude +14, Reflex +14, Will +5 BAB +19 ........................................ .................. Right. The build's main focus is obviously to deal out a lot of damage in melee while still preserving a slight glimpse of the traditional tank role: The ability to take some punishment. Hence race: Dwarf (+2 con) and Improved Toughness. The character fights with a Dwarven Waraxe and a Short Sword. His feats in Dwarven Waraxe (Focus, specialization, I.C.) are all good on his short sword too thanks to Two-Weapon Versatility. He delivers a lot of extra damage via SA if he wins initiative, which is very likely to happen (Imp. Init + high dexterity) or if he can flank. And unlike rogue 2WF'ers, this guy can actually hit things. The other reason I put in the rogue and NE levels is that he benefits much more from Two-Weapon Spring Attack this way (flanking Spring Attack = SA). Anyway. What do you think? - Dain
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-06-05, 07:01 AM	Well, tempest was made to be combined with dervish! Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish10/Tempest5 or Ranger2/Swa3/Ftr1/Dervish10/Tempest4 if you don't like the twf-spring attack when not dancing the dance of death. Int to damage, bonus damage from dervish, dex to attack (dervish1 makes the scimitar a light weapon): Sources: Mini-HB, CAdv, CW, DMG, PHB Human Swashbuckler3\Fighter2\Dervish10\Tempest 5 BAB +20/15/10/5, Saves 13/9/9, 20d10 + 20*conmod HP Stats (28 pb) Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 10 1 Swa1 - Weapon finesse (v), dodge, mobility 2 Swa1\Ftr1 - Two-weapon fighting 3 Swa2\Ftr1 - Combat expertise 4 Swa3\Ftr1 5 Swa3\Ftr2 - Weapon focus (scimitar) 6 Swa3\Ftr2\Der1 - Improved two-weapon fighting 7 Swa3\Ftr2\Der2 8 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3 - Spring attack (v), 9 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem1 - Combat Reflexes 10 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem2 11 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem3 12 Swa3\Ftr2\Der3\Tem4 - Greater two-weapon fighting 13 Swa3\Ftr2\Der4\Tem4 14 Swa3\Ftr2\Der5\Tem4 15 Swa3\Ftr2\Der6\Tem4 - Karmic strike 16 Swa3\Ftr2\Der7\Tem4 17 Swa3\Ftr2\Der8\Tem4 18 Swa3\Ftr2\Der9\Tem4 - Double Hit 19 Swa3\Ftr2\Der10\Tem4 20 Swa3\Ftr2\Der10\Tem5 If you don't like karmic strike and double hit, pick elusive target and improved initiative instead. You don't need combat reflexes then, although it is really nice to have in a dex-heavy build. Put your stat increases into dex, get a +5 tome and a nice +6 enhancement item for 12 AoOs/round, all hitting twice with double hit.
paradoxmage 02-06-05, 07:03 AM	Take Oversized Two-Weapon fighting and fight with two Dwarven Waraxes.
Dain 02-06-05, 07:09 AM	It seems pointless to do the 5 Tempest levels before level 16-20 though. The abilities of the Dervish are far superior to those of the Tempest. I explicitly tried to make a build where Tempest wasn't just the add-on in a Dervish build. It would be kinda sad if that was the only thing the PrC was good for. - Dain
Dain 02-06-05, 07:14 AM	Take Oversized Two-Weapon fighting and fight with two Dwarven Waraxes. Yeah, I thought about that too, but the payoff just isn't that great. You do 6 more damage per round with your off-hand and that's assuming you hit all the time. In fact you'll be doing 3-4 extra damage per round, which isn't that much. In the build I made you would have to sacrifice Improved Critical to do it, and I'm quite certain that the damage boost from IC is far greater than 3-4 points per round (Or you could skip Improved Toughness, but that seems kinda dumb too). - Dain
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-06-05, 07:15 AM	That's not the tempest's fault, it is the dervish, that is just too good not to take in a twf-build.
CompleteSatori 02-06-05, 09:20 AM	Yeah, I thought about that too, but the payoff just isn't that great. You do 6 more damage per round with your off-hand and that's assuming you hit all the time. In fact you'll be doing 3-4 extra damage per round, which isn't that much. - Dain Actually that is patently untrue. Remember that that is 3-4 more damage each attack round for the life of the character! Not very good for an NPC build, but awesome for a PC in even just a minute of combat, at 30-40 more damage, over the total time you play which is possible hundreds of minutes of combat (3000-4000 damage) and your hit percentage is not any less with OTWF.
Dain 02-06-05, 09:31 AM	Actually that is patently untrue. Remember that that is 3-4 more damage each attack round for the life of the character! Not very good for an NPC build, but awesome for a PC in even just a minute of combat, at 30-40 more damage, over the total time you play which is possible hundreds of minutes of combat (3000-4000 damage) and your hit percentage is not any less with OTWF. Hey, I'm not arguing that it's a useless feat. I'm just arguing that other feats are better in this context. 'Cause the only feats you can skip in this build are Improved Critical and Improved Toughness, which are both better feats, IMO. Improved Critical should deliver more than 3-4 extra damage per round. And Improved Toughness is like a +2 boost on constitution - you definitely don't wanna miss out on that either as a melee character if the alternative is doing 3-4 more points of damage per round. - Dain
ck2001wendt 02-06-05, 09:52 AM	I have a "Tactical Agent" build somewhere around here. The basic build is something like: Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 1/Elocator 10/Tempest 5 The idea is that Paychic Warriors, and particularly Elocators, are masters of the Spring Attack and have enough combat mobility to pull Full Attacks out of strange places (Lions Charge, Dim Door + Lions Charge at high levels). When a full attack doesn't work for you, you can spring in and get your double-strike off. Sort the Board by Thread Starter and you'll see what I mean.
Caelic 02-06-05, 10:04 AM	I'm working on a Dwarven build that incorporates a level of Battlesmith, three levels of Hammer of Moradin, and Tempest, in conjunction with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and twin warhammers. Wisdom to damage, 1.5 Str damage with the main hand, normal Str damage with the off hand. A major point in favor of OTWF: it allows you to use Power Attack with both weapons.
Snow Savant 02-06-05, 10:11 AM	The Tempest PrC sucks. That said, if you still want to make one, I would avoid Rogue in the baseline, and focus on a CHA-based Divine Might/Snowflake Wardance baseline build. Meaning your melee specialist should have clerical turning and a wad of daily bard song uses. Your baseline can consist of some of the following core class options: *** Fighter-2 Cleric-1 (Charm Domain & Undeath domains are a definite!) Bard-4 Hexblade-2 Paladin-2 or 4 Ranger-2 *** After that, you need a bunch of the Bard PrC's that offer +1 BAB/Level and +1 Bard Song/Level. Don't rule out use of the Extra Bard Song feat for 4 extra Snowflake Wardances per day. Same goes for Extra Turning. For your TWF Tempest angle, think seriously about Shield Bashing with a Light Shield with Shield Blades (Underdark or RoF book I believe). Which is better than Shield Spikes as it is slashing damage (benefits Snowflake Wardance). Since you have clerical turning, you may even have room for the Divine Shield feat, although that is probably a late-level acquisition. The Divine Champion feat is probably better than more levels of Fighter in regards to grabbing more bonus fighter feats. It's located in the PGtF (and FRCS in 3.0 form). It also has class benefits that help a CHA-combatant. As a CHA-warrior, be sure to try and benefit from dips into Hexblade-2, Paladin-2, Blackguard-2, Arcane Duelist-2, etc. For the save or AC benefit options of course. As you can see, the permutations sets here are rather varied. But it gives you a more useful option for your Tempest build than relying on SA stacking for additional benefits. For you Tempests who want a weapon that works well with both Spring Attack and TWF, the best Tempest weapon is a Chain Lash (Savage Species, OA books). You can use it as a 10' reach weapon in spring attacking or a TWF weapon. It's also disarm and trip friendly. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Caelic 02-06-05, 10:16 AM	Hey, the new Tempest still isn't overwhelmingly impressive, but at least it doesn't take you 10 levels and a massive investment in feats to get that lack of impressiveness anymore. ;)
Dain 02-06-05, 10:24 AM	The Tempest PrC sucks. That said, if you still want to make one... I don't, really. :D I just wondered if it was any good in any other context than finishing off Dervish. Which it apparently isn't. :) - Dain
Swefrid 02-06-05, 10:26 AM	8) Rgr 2/Ftr 4/Temp 2: Ambidexterity (-1) Ummm...that feat doesn't exist in 3.5 and you've taken it twice...
Snow Savant 02-06-05, 10:28 AM	Yeah ... it's too bad too. I would have loved the revised Tempest PrC had they not thrown in totally unneccessary crapola like Spring Attack and Mobility feat pre-req.'s. Like Caelic said, its reduction to 5 levels is a good start ... but it still ain't enough to make the PrC exciting or min/max viable.
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-06-05, 10:29 AM	It is a class feature of the Tempest class.
Dain 02-06-05, 10:31 AM	Ummm...that feat doesn't exist in 3.5 and you've taken it twice... Nope. It's an ability of the Tempest. If you had looked a little closer you would have noticed that I don't even get a feat in those levels. Yeah ... it's too bad too. I would have loved the revised Tempest PrC had they not thrown in totally unneccessary crapola like Spring Attack and Mobility feat pre-req.'s. Like Caelic said, its reduction to 5 levels is a good start ... but it still ain't enough to make the PrC exciting or min/max viable. I agree, obviously.
Funny Slaughter 02-06-05, 10:37 AM	the tempest was one of the biggest jokes in 3.0 and it was hard to get less reputated then by suggesting only a single level of it in any build on the boards. in 3.5 they made it slightly stronger. or, better said, a bit less worse. it would be a sub-par choice for a TWF-build if, oh if, there were no dervishes. the dervish-PrC is awesome and made TWF viable. now there is no way around it and i think tempest does not even give that good synergy that you have to take levels in it after finishing dervish. better to get some cool abilities or a bit diversity, cover some weaknesses or build up other strengths then to spend a lot of levels to get a minor adjustment to your numbers here or there. i think that it would be very rare (if possible at all) to see a build using tempest that could not be done better without it, at least when you do not only rate your TWF-capabilities. gs Funny
Nazzareth 02-06-05, 12:09 PM	It works well the exotic weapon master class for double weapon fighters. You can gain a big boost to ac by combing tempest with exotic weapon master and taking all three TWF defense feats. Also good for the invisible blade PRC.
rilem 02-06-05, 03:40 PM	The only point I can see in tempest is to take advantage of the otherwise pointless and difficult-to-get Two-weapon feats from the complete warrior. With Versatility, styles like High Sword Low Axe become much more achievable. You don't actually get the WF feat for different weapons, but as you can apply an existing feat for such purposes it seems reasonable. (Unless this has been specifically outlawed already?). In Dain's original build, sub in HS/LA for Improved Toughness or Improved Critical. Take Two levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian for Improved Trip (this will cost you another feat), someplace -- I suggest Weapon Specialization. With your overall high BAB, you'll be making that free trip check a lot.
happycows 02-06-05, 07:04 PM	Rogue 1, Swashbuckler 3, fighter 2, tempest 4, exemplar 10.
JosephKell 02-06-05, 07:17 PM	The Sample Tempest isn't even legal! It doesn't have the prerequisite 17 Dex for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Tempest Stormwind 02-06-05, 07:30 PM	I hate threads like this... they seem VERY unnerving. I mean, what would happen if they made a PrC called the Snow Savant that everyone started bashing? (replace name as necessary) That said, the tempest isn't an optimized class. It's nice for insane TWF builds or general, nonoptimal-but-useful builds that use TWF, but for general optimization, less so. Still, most of the prereq feats work well with TWF rogues, and as people have mentioned, the elocator can help with insane movement/spring attacks. Personally, I'd have let it grant Greater TWF as a free feat at, say, 5th level, which would free up a few feats... and maybe let the tempest's AC increase when you defend yourself (like a virtual TWD tree). Then (with four extra virtual feats), would you say it'd be more CO-worthy?
Jeremymc 02-06-05, 08:21 PM	Actually, the one supremely good thing about the new tempest is that you no longer have to choose between the high crit. rate scimitar and low crit. rate but powerful x4 Pick. Now, with a couple levels of Tempest, you can apply the same Improved Crit. feat to both weapons, and split the difference. For enemies with a really high AC, use a 'maiming' 'burst' pick, and for knobblies, use the plain old "burst" scimitar.
glutton 02-07-05, 01:22 AM	CW samurai 11 tempest 5 hah!
xanadu 02-07-05, 01:34 AM	I dont think the Tempest is a bad class, if anything it gives a lot for a 2 weapon fighter: +3 Ac, +2 to hit, and the versatility feature is really nice if you wield 2 different weapons. The main problem is it is a feat hog: Spring attack and the TWF tree are awfully heavy requirements - and normally they are mutually exclusive. If a DM offered to drop the spring attack requirement in exchange for losing the TWF spring attack feature at level 5, I'd take this PRC for any TWF build I made. I thought the intial poster's build was actually pretty good. Sure there are better, but I'd take that guy in my party.
Xeraph 02-07-05, 04:09 AM	Pardon my complete non min/maxed view of Tempest vs Dervish. :D Think about the background for the character for a moment... Lets say... Dervish dwarves? Nomadic, dancing, slightly gay, schimitar wielding dwarves? :rolleyes: Do you get the picture? I mean, Tempest is obviously reprimted so you can be a straight guy kicking arse with TWF. Theres no background story for the Tempest that prevents him from being what he like to be. But take the Dervish, its a nomadic prestige class, sort of say (sp), which in many RP situations restricts it from being taken as a prestige class. Many DMs will prevent PCs from taken it with thare Swashbucling adventure types, because no way in hell is an alleycat duelist or most dwarves qualified, RP reasons, to be a nomadic dancing Dervish. Other that the freedom of the Tempests reqs, I totally agree, waste of time, i would take Occult Slayer instead of Tempest any time in my Dervish build. :P My flaming 10 pints. Xeraphim :angel:
Ulthain 02-07-05, 09:04 AM	With the 3.0 tempest: 1: Barbarian1: Ice tiger berserker, Two Weapon Fighting 2: Fighter1: Improved Shield Bash 3: Fighter2: Shield Charge, Dodge 4: Fighter3 5: Fighter4: Mobility 6: Fighter5: Shield Slam 7: Fighter6: Spring Attack 8: Fighter7 9: Fighter8: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Resounding Blow 10: Dervish1: Slashing blades, Dervish dance 11: Tempest1: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 12: Tempest2: Off-Hand Parry, Quell the profane 13: Tempest3: 14: Tempest4 15: Tempest5: Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Feat 16: Tempest6: 17: Tempest7: 18: Tempest8: Absolute Ambidexterity, Feat 19: Tempest9: 20: Tempest10: Suppreme Two Weapon Fighting Armed with a keen scimitar, light shield with shield blades. He is a paralyzer, not a damager, leaving it to his friends with the greatsword/greataxe to deal the damage needed to the dazed/stunned/nausated or cowered enemy. All stat bumps go to strength which stacks nicely with the rage ability from bbn and adds to the saves of the feat induced effects. This was a build I had planned on playing up until tempest was hit with the nerf bat. With the 3.5 tempest he is severely weakened, to the point of broken (not to mention the fact that he lost an attack), I think he might be possible in a high stat game, but we roll 4d6 pick 3. I've spent countless hours trying to get him to work with the new tempest, but I end up with picking Dervish and I don't like to be dependant on class features that are useable limited times per day. The 3.0 tempest's greatest benefit was to allow for the 2wf tree without access to monster stats.
HoshiAdam 02-07-05, 09:45 AM	Tempest is a decent option for TWF's that don't have the 13 int to get into Dervish. It's also good for the Dwarf Ranger6/Deepwarden2. Only need a 13 Dex, and the rest can go into Con and Str. Mix in some levels of fighter to get some extra feats (by 10th level there is a good chance you will stick with at least one of the weapons you are using till higher level). Oversize TWF also meshes well with Power Attack. It might only be 1 for 1, but now you can power attack with both weapons at that rate. In terms of power attack rates, that means you can do the same extra damage with either TWF or THF. Combine that with the ambidexterity ability of the tempest, and TWF actually would come out ahead of a THF build in terms of damage. I'm not sure about how it would fare against some of the other power attack adders (frenzied berzerker or combat brute), but it could do well.