Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dominus_casuum 09-26-06, 11:56 PM	This is an infinite action loop, (ab)usable at level 9. It uses Divine Minion/MoMF cheese, though. Sorry, it's unavoidable. I'm on a style quest right now in another thread to try to do it without. Credit goes to Tleilaxu_Ghola, Khan the Destroyer, and NoldorForce for inspiration. THE BUILD: White Raven "Initiate" (hyuck, hyuck) Human DivineMinion1/Crusader1/MasterofManyForms6/Warblade1(if played above 9th level, add crusader+2/warblade+2/crusader+2/warblade+2/bloodstormblade2/warblade+1) 1: Endurance, Alertness 3: Adaptive Style 6: Assume Supernatural Ability 9: Improved Assume Supernatural Ability Warblade Maneuvers: Hunter's Sense, Mountain Hammer, White Raven Tactics, 1 free Crusader Maneuvers: Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, 2 free THE TRICK: Round 1: Wildshape into Choker, use ASA for choker's Quickness ability (free action) Take full-round action Initiate WRT Round 2 and subsequent: Recover maneuvers (full-round) Initiate WRT use move action or standard action and five-foot step Congratulations, you have infinite actions. Only thing you can't do with them is take full-round actions - otherwise, knock yourself out.
X-Codes 09-27-06, 12:16 AM	You can't refresh WRT as a full-round action. It has to be a swift action while attacking. You also can't achieve infinate actions with White Raven Tactics (even if you can target yourself, which is arguable) because each use reduces your initiative count by 1. This is more of an exploit of ASA (a 3.0 feat) than ToB in the first place.
GhostStepper 09-27-06, 12:21 AM	You also can't achieve infinate actions with White Raven Tactics (even if you can target yourself, which is arguable) because each use reduces your initiative count by 1. Why is that a problem? Does it say somewhere there is a limit to how low your initiative can go?
Iry 09-27-06, 12:22 AM	That's fairly neat, but where are you fitting in the Leadership Feat to allow you to bounce WRT? Or are you assuming there's another character in the party identicle to you so you can both take infinite actions?
dog45 09-27-06, 12:26 AM	You can't refresh WRT as a full-round action. It has to be a swift action while attacking.. I think he's using Adaptive Style to reset all his manuevers. not sure though.
GhostStepper 09-27-06, 12:31 AM	That's fairly neat, but where are you fitting in the Leadership Feat to allow you to bounce WRT? Or are you assuming there's another character in the party identicle to you so you can both take infinite actions? You have to assume that you can use WRT on yourself, which is actually backed up by a custserv ruling someone posting in another topic.
dominus_casuum 09-27-06, 12:35 AM	I think he's using Adaptive Style to reset all his manuevers. not sure though.Correct.
Iry 09-27-06, 12:35 AM	You have to assume that you can use WRT on yourself, which is actually backed up by a custserv ruling someone posting in another topic. That's one particular case of the CustServ being befuddled by the question. Why, the Target: section on WRT is "One Ally" and the text goes on to read "When you use this maneuver, select an ally within range. Her blah blah blah, her blah blah blah, her blah blah blah!" Infact, outside of the fluff text the words "You/Your" are only listed twice. Now, just toss in an ally and you're golden. :D
dominus_casuum 09-27-06, 12:36 AM	This is more of an exploit of ASA (a 3.0 feat) than ToB in the first place.Not really. You don't get infinite actions with ASA - at least, not normally. And this was simply the fastest way I could see to accomplish it - I'm sure there are others, if I look far enough.
GhostStepper 09-27-06, 01:24 AM	That's one particular case of the CustServ being befuddled by the question. Why, the Target: section on WRT is "One Ally" and the text goes on to read "When you use this maneuver, select an ally within range. Her blah blah blah, her blah blah blah, her blah blah blah!" Infact, outside of the fluff text the words "You/Your" are only listed twice. Now, just toss in an ally and you're golden. :D Actually the text seems pretty clear: you have to use it on an ally, not yourself. The problem is that, just like the thing with the crusader's recovery mechanic, custserv has no clue what they are talking about.
Esponer 09-27-06, 01:30 AM	Actually the text seems pretty clear: you have to use it on an ally, not yourself. The problem is that, just like the thing with the crusader's recovery mechanic, custserv has no clue what they are talking about. The problem with your interpretation is that you are an ally of yourself, and as far as I know every time the word "ally" is used in D&D, it includes you. I think this is true and is supported by Customer Services but I'd actually love to see this proved false.
dominus_casuum 09-27-06, 01:48 AM	The problem with your interpretation is that you are an ally of yourself, and as far as I know every time the word "ally" is used in D&D, it includes you. I think this is true and is supported by Customer Services but I'd actually love to see this proved false.I think it's true, and I don't want it disproved, because I lost sleep thinking this up. HOWEVER, I won't dispute the ruling if it's proven/determined to be false. Or if the board decides it's true and ignores the stupidity, like they did on the latest Polymorph ruling.
Llochlyn 09-27-06, 03:14 AM	The thread's title has reminded me of a musical masterpiece of old : http://www.rbgsolutions.com/macrochan/osource/T/7/T73KORAGEJMZMRDI4DEVK6B4GKVV4I63.jpg MC Hammer's Hammer time. Ergo, the build needs to use a hammer.
X-Codes 09-27-06, 08:03 AM	I think it's true, and I don't want it disproved, because I lost sleep thinking this up. HOWEVER, I won't dispute the ruling if it's proven/determined to be false. Or if the board decides it's true and ignores the stupidity, like they did on the latest Polymorph ruling. I think the board is about 50/50 on whether or not you are actually a legal target for your own White Raven Tactics manuver. If you take this to a DM then he'll probably get the same impression, since this is basically a much more powerful version of Time Stands Still if you can. The whole situation taken into perspective, common sense dictates that this doesn't work. Until ToB errata is released, the "rules don't say I can't" crowd will still have grounds to argue.
phelanarcetus 09-27-06, 09:42 AM	A similar one that's been mentioned on the Crusader recovery thread is that, after a couple of rounds of combat, two Crusader 5s can enter an infinite loop of one acting, then the other. Sure, this requires two players or Leadership and control over the cohort, but it's even earlier. And that's if "One Ally" doesn't include you. Which I don't think it does here. If it does, one Crusader can do this at 5th level after a couple of rounds. Take Extra Granted Manuever. Round 1, you have 3 out of 5 manuevers granted. Use none. Round 2, you start with 4 out of 5 granted. Again use none. Round 3, you start with 5 out of 5 granted. Now you can use one arbitrary of your choice, and then White Raven Tactics yourself. As a side note, the book isn't completely clear on whether a Crusader when recovering manuevers gets 2 granted, or the number he would have granted at the start of the fight. If it's the latter, you have greater capabilities for the first two rounds.
Richmud 09-27-06, 10:23 AM	The problem with your interpretation is that you are an ally of yourself, and as far as I know every time the word "ally" is used in D&D, it includes you. I think this is true and is supported by Customer Services but I'd actually love to see this proved false. Actually most abilities I've seen that mentions working on allies usually say something like "(including yourself)"
Esponer 09-27-06, 11:04 AM	Actually most abilities I've seen that mentions working on allies usually say something like "(including yourself)" Indeed: but it seems that Customer Service think that you still count as an ally of yourself and that such text is thus simply clarification. Draw your own conclusions.
Iry 09-27-06, 11:33 AM	[b]Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" includes yourself. Unless otherwise noted, a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal. Unless otherwise noted, a dragon shaman's aura affects all allies within 30 feet (including himself) with line of effect to you. While you are in this stance, you and any ally within 10 feet... ...takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against your allies. This penalty does not apply to attacks made against you. ...you or an ally within 30 feet... ...you and allies within range... ...you and allies who flank the enemy... Not only is clarifying text provided in many instances, it is provided within ToB itself and indeed in several entries within the White Raven style. If we are to assume that every instance where it lacks the clarification, (including himself) also includes himself then White Raven style just got very very powerful. The definition of Ally itself allows for both instances.
Pinky's brain 09-27-06, 11:56 AM	"In most cases, references to "allies" includes yourself." I don't understand why editors allow this to get in. This kind of language should be completely forbidden in rules sections. There is nothing to be gained by keeping it unclear, stating these kind of things in an absolute way only makes design later on easier. You don't have to add any text in the common case, you only have to clarify the exceptions.
DarknessEternal 09-27-06, 02:31 PM	Not to get in on the whole ally debate, but aren't Flaws considered bad-form on this board?
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 09-27-06, 05:08 PM	As a side note, the book isn't completely clear on whether a Crusader when recovering manuevers gets 2 granted, or the number he would have granted at the start of the fight. If it's the latter, you have greater capabilities for the first two rounds. A response to a separate question that I submitted to CustServ said that it is the former. Also, it is fairly explicit in the Crusader entry that you receive a "new pair" of granted maneuvers. This is one thing that makes me think the designers may have meant for the Crusader recovery mechanic to work the way that CustServ says it does. Extra Granted Maneuver would bring that to three. On the issue of WRT affecting you, I think that it is fairly obvious that CustServ has it wrong. Given that, with the current interpretation, it is a better ability than Time Stands Still (9th level maneuver) and at least as good as Island in Time (Eternal Blade ability, available at 20th level), I cannot conceive of the designers having intended for it to work this way. Still, this is the current interpretation, so let the good times roll.
Aegeu 09-27-06, 05:25 PM	IIRC, under the rules for delaying your action, it says that you can't delay to below -1*(your initiative count). It might extend to all initiative situations, I forget. Second, if theres's another opponent on the field, you can be interrupted halfway through. One stunning attack will shred your WRT loop instantly., making it less useful than it seems.
NoldorForce 09-27-06, 05:34 PM	I recall language like that from the 3.0 PHB. However, it's not present in the SRD. I'd already looked on this before raising the question in very big letters on the Crusader/RKV build.
dominus_casuum 09-27-06, 06:29 PM	Not to get in on the whole ally debate, but aren't Flaws considered bad-form on this board?Hmm. Oh well, stone power/shards of granite aren't necessary, I'll drop those.