Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Turin 01-10-05, 12:44 PM	I've painted myself into a rather unoptimized corner with one of my current PC's, and I need some help from the CO Gurus (Guri?). The basic concept is that he's a dwarf who grew up on his own in the wilderness after all his clan was killed. He's savage, rude, and smelly, but with the intense wisdom that only the slightly mad have and a deep spiritual connection to the "Great Spirit" (Obad-hai)... and a ton of fun to role-play. But the campaign has a fairly martial tone to it (a war has just started), and I'm finding him relatively less effective as we go up in levels. I'll list my current build and then go into some of my thoughts/problems. First, here are the "rules" I've got to work within: 1. I can't go back and fix any of the build, with the exception of the last level (6th)... I levelled up after the last game, so I have a chance to fix just that level before play on Thursday. 2. I've got to work with these books: PHB, DMG, CW, CA, CD, CV, XPH, and the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook (it's not an Eberron game, per se, however, so no dragonmarks or action points... I know, weird... long story). No Dragon Magazine, no 3rd party, no unupdated 3.0 material, no BoED, no MiniHB, no Races of ___, no FR or OA stuff, etc. Here's the build: Wulgolfin ("Wulf"), The Mad dwarf, Barbarian 3 / Druid 3 Str 18, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 6 Alignment CN BAB+5, Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +3 Special Abilities: darkvision 60', Stonecunning, Weapon Familiarity, Stability, no speed reduction from armor, +2 saves vs poison, spells, and spell-like effects; +1 attack vs orcs and goblinoids, +4 dodge AC vs giants, Fast Movement, Rage 3/day, Uncanny Dodge (retain Dex bonus), Trap Sense +1, Wild Empathy +1, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step Feats: Extra Rage, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll Skill Ranks: Climb 1, Concentration 2, Craft (woodcarving) 1, Handle Animal 7, Heal 1, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 4, Perform (wind instruments) 2, Spot 2, Survival 8, Swim 1 Significant Equipment: hide armor +1, amulet of natural armor +2, cloak of resistance +1, masterwork greatclub, masterwork composite longbow (18 Str), wand of cure light wounds, various scrolls I know, multiclassing druid with barbarian was a sub-par idea. The original plan was to go even levels of each as I go up, so I didn't worry about the favored class penalty. So now I'm stuck with either a fairly even progression, adding in some fighter levels, or going for a PrC. The most recent level taken was Bbn 3, and I picked up the Extra Rage feat then... so these can change if need be. I've been kicking around recently either adding a whole bunch of fighter levels to him and making him a more "disciplined" combatant, or possibly going for Bear Warrior (CW), and making a raging maniac. I want the emphasis on melee combat, but I'm also the part time healer, as we have no cleric... we've got an archer ranger, a sorcerer, and a wizard right now. The sorcerer player goes through a lot of PCs, so I'm not worried that we're short a full-time healer -- we can always pressure her to make a healer for her next PC, and both I and the ranger carry wands of curing. Is Bear Warrior any good? It seems brutal in melee and easy for me to get into, but I'm worried about the loss of "always on" magic items if I go this route (not so much now, but in the future when I'll have more items). But if I go for more druid levels, I can pick up Wild Shape and with it open the possibility to get things like Boar's Ferocity or Lion's Pounce (but really only if I also get Extra Wildshape). I've also been thinking about the Combat Brute feat. Ack, I don't have enough feats to do everything! :weep: Any suggestions, comments, or constructive criticisms would be much appreciated! (Edit: I've read the 3.5 Build FAQ, so I'm looking any additional wisdom along these lines)
amalcon 01-10-05, 01:10 PM	You've got an 18 strength there. It would be a shame to waste it by transforming (though you definitely could get it higher like that). My advice: if you're planning to become less chaotic, go Hospitaler. You've got access to a pretty good animal companion mount, and decent fighting capabilities. Go with it. Take that last level, and dump all your skill points into Ride, and get Mounted Combat. Next level, take Fighter and Ride-By Attack. Presto, qualified. If you want to stay chaotic, go with Nature's Warrior for a little while. It will take a few more levels to qualify for (you need wildshape), but when you do, you'll get some nice Nature's Armament bonuses (+1 to 5 to AC when wildshaped, fast healing, and +3 damage for doing something you want to do anyway), plus it continues your wildshape progression. After that (this will be at very high levels), hit Warshaper for damage, stat boosts, reach, more fast healing, and the ability to switch to a different shape without terminating your wildshape. You'll have some crazy wildshaping crap, which though it is kind of a waste of your 18 strength should put your character in a nice position.
Fălenganor 01-10-05, 01:10 PM	Go Frenzied Berserker, get an amulet of sadism and leap attack, then sit and wait your DM to recover from the shock.
SmiloDan 01-10-05, 01:12 PM	Sounds like a fun guy to play! Real interesting character. I would probably suggest going Warshaper or Nature's Warrior. I don't know their requirements, though, since I don't own CW. A bear warrior named Wulf would be nice and ironic, don't ya think? I play an elf druid archer, and can't imagine multiclassing out of druid, but I also DM for a guy who plays a female :rolleyes: human fighter-druid-warshaper-nature's warrior. Kind of sub-optimal, but he hasn't died yet... There's really nothing WRONG with going Barbarian 10/Druid 10. DR 2/-, 3 rages a day (or 5, with that feat), 5th level spells, BAB +17, Wildshape 4 day (I think) into large 10 HD beasties, that are boosted by Rage and Bull's Str, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Barkskin, and Animal Growth. What's your animal companion? OH! Maybe try to get into that Lion of Talisad...but it's from a banned book. Hmmm....
Timespike 01-10-05, 01:28 PM	Umm, What exactly is so bad about this guy, agains? Looks fairly solid to me. He's not broken but he should be able to hold his own in a scrape, especially with that enormous CON score. Be that as it may, look into the following: Okay. Her'es What I'd Personally Reccomend. Level 1 Barbarian 1 Power Attack Level 2 Druid 1 Level 3 Barbarian 2 Extra Rage Level 4 Druid 2 Level 5 Barbarian 3 Level 6 Druid 3 Scribe Scroll ----- This Is Where you Are now, Right? ------- ------ This is Where I'd Reccomend Going from Here. ----- Level 7 Barbarian 4 Level 8 Druid 4 Level 9 Druid 5 [Track] Level 10 Nature's Warrior 1 Level 11 Nature's Warrior 2 Level 12 Nature's Warrior 3 [Cleave] Level 13 Nature's Warrior 4 Level 14 Nature's Warrior 5 ------ At This Point You'll Cast as a 7th-Level Druid and Wildshape as a 10th level one, and have a BAB of 12/7/2 ------ From there, I'd reccomend Beastmaster, Animal Lord (Wolflord; You'll qualify already, or taking a 5th level of barbarian and going back to your original multiclassing scheme. Try to wind up with Barbarian 7/druid 8/Nature's Warrior 5. It'll be better for your spellcasting & wild shape. Beast Totem and Beast Shape from Eberron would help you, too.
ksbsnowowl 01-10-05, 01:43 PM	OH! Maybe try to get into that Lion of Talisad...but it's from a banned book. Hmmm....Wasn't there a druid-focused PrC in CW that granted a pounce ability? I was thinking Lion of Talisad, but apparently it is in BoED. Maybe I'm just crazy..... Frenzied Berserker could work; as was mentioned, Leap Attack from CV would be good. It increases the damage output from Power Attack. Since you are so devoted to Obad-hi, perhaps Pious Templar from CD would work well. It grants you either Paladin or Blackguard spellcasting, a couple bonus feats and some DR....although gaining specialization in the q-staff isn't all that hot, IMO.
Turin 01-10-05, 02:18 PM	Sounds like a fun guy to play! Real interesting character. I would probably suggest going Warshaper or Nature's Warrior. I don't know their requirements, though, since I don't own CW. A bear warrior named Wulf would be nice and ironic, don't ya think?I suppose it would! :cool: Nature's Warrior and Warshaper would be easy to get into from either Bear Warrior or by getting Wildshape as a druid. I think I like warshaper's combat abilities (like reach, fast healing, tougher weapons) more than Nature's Warrior, I think... but Nature's Warrior gives a little bit of spellcasting progression, so... hm. There's some weird text in Warshaper though about the natural weapons... it seems like I could be in, say bear form, and grow horns, a slapping tail, make my teeth and claws deadlier, etc, all at the same time? Has CW been addressed in the FAQ yet? There's really nothing WRONG with going Barbarian 10/Druid 10. DR 2/-, 3 rages a day (or 5, with that feat), 5th level spells, BAB +17, Wildshape 4 day (I think) into large 10 HD beasties, that are boosted by Rage and Bull's Str, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Barkskin, and Animal Growth. Oh, sure, you (and Timespike) are definitely right on that... by 20th, this guy would be pretty good. But when I was charting out his levels of druid/barbarian, all my abilities seemed to be really far out along his level progression. Wildshape at 8th wasn't too bad, but things like DR weren't until I was very late in levels. At 12th, for example, I've only got 3rd-level spells, which are okay for buffs, I suppose, but that's about it (is this really all I should expect?). I think I'm used to more "lop-sided" builds where one class is used for a dip of a couple levels... I haven't tried it with a caster before, though. What's your animal companion? Dire rat... I lost my dog a couple sessions back, after rescuing one of the party, the wizard, from an elvish prison (again, long story) so he could use him to take some revenge on the mini-BBEG. The dog died during the fighting. After that session I decided that the Great Spirit would answer his communion as to what to do next by giving him a rat, which symbolically represented following the rogue (and showing that nature has a sense of humor :D ). Not the most combat-effective companion, but it's small size allows it to get into things I can't, or to fetch dropped objects during combat and the like. Wasn't there a druid-focused PrC in CW that granted a pounce ability? I was thinking Lion of Talisad, but apparently it is in BoED. Maybe I'm just crazy..... Frenzied Berserker could work; as was mentioned, Leap Attack from CV would be good. It increases the damage output from Power Attack. There's a Wild feat in CD that does it, but I'm don't think Nature's Warrior does. FB is pretty brutal, but with 2 mages in the party, I'd be worried that I'd be putting them in way too much danger. Wulf (the character) might not care, but me (the player) does... my fellow players wouldn't appreciate it much. :P But I'll take a look at Pious Templar when I get a chance tonight, q-staff specialization might not be so bad with Spikes to back it up.
Ander Spectacular 01-10-05, 03:22 PM	Thats a pretty flexible build. Maybe something like... 6 Fighter 1 (Extra Rage, Cleave) 7 Fighter 2 (Improved Bullrush or Improved Sunder) 8 Bear Warrior 1 9 Bear Warrior 2 (Shock Trooper or Combat Brute) 10 Bear Warrior 3 11 Bear Warrior 4 12 Bear Warrior 5 (Instantaneous Rage) 13 Warshaper 1 14 Warshaper 2 15 Warshaper 3 (Extra Rage or Practiced Spellcaster) The last 5 levels can be any mix you like really, but by this point you kick some serious butt in melee, and if you go the Practiced Spellcaster route, can have some of your buffs last a while. Instantaneous Rage effectively gives you the ability to turn into brown bear shape whenever you want with all the requisite large size goodies (ie rage while an enemy moves within 10' of you, get an AoO, grapple as a bear, all on someone else's turn...) Shock Trooper is always nice for moving people around or smashing the crap out of them with a hefty power attack. If you wanted, you could probably toss in the Wild Cohort feat from the WotC website, which would give you an animal companion slightly weaker than that of a druid of your character level. It should be fun no matter which way you go, though. -AS-