Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnny_reb_21 10-20-06, 08:41 AM	ok a friend wanted to dm a game for vl 15 chars instead of starting from 1 then going to 15 because he wants to skip fighting dire rats and gnolls and go to higher cr demons and what not .. so i wanted something different and stumbled upon the link to the savage progression tables on the WOTC site and i came up with a 2nd lvl barb who is a natural wereboar (ecl 5) with 3 levels of boar and 7 levels of dire boar. (total ecl 15) the barb gets +2 bab +2 fort + 0 ref and will and 2 d12 for hp along with rage fast movement etc the wereboar template adds +2 wis +2 natural armor 3d8 along with dr 10/silver some bab +2 fort +3 ref a+3will + 1 the boar animal class gives bab +2 fort +3 ref+3 will +1 along with +6 con +4 str and nat arm of +6 the dire boar gives bab +5 fort +5 ref +5 will +5 along with +6 con +16 str and +6 nat armnor you also gain toughness ferocity alertness iron will boar empathy a gore attack with the animals so if i am in hybrid or animal form i get a total of +12 con +20 str and a total of+14 natural armor i said at the start demons and what not so it is not in the abyss yeah i know demons and devils have respectable SR and DR/magic in human form i have around 160'sh hp with toughness 74 for animal hd +39 and 15 +6for barb hd then add my con mod then in animal form i get an additional +12 con for an additional 90 hp and +20 str if i rage i get an additional + 4 str and +4 con giving the bonus hp to 105 not 90 so would easily have over 200 hp and with current str and the bonus +24 a total of 42 str with a 2 handed weapon for the 1.5 str bonus to dmg so it works out to +30 points a swing and the animal hit die are the same as other second tier fighters (clerics dragon shamans, etc i just get way more HP and str) i cose this as a tank yeah the bab is lower than a fighter or barb or pally and such but his high str and hp are ahead of the power curve as far as fighters barb and such when in hybrid form also the party has 2 clerics a wiz a rogue and a pally...i wanted something different and hard hitting...normally i play magic users but wanted a sheer brute this time but i didnt want to be stared at like half orcs or as conspicuios as a race of giant. and with help of things such as enlarge person i could really bring home some heavy hits increase my space and reach yeah i loose some ac but if i can kill it in 5 hits or less i dont really mind
Skadrian 10-20-06, 09:00 AM	wow, I read through all that in only 2 tries. You should reformat your post, it is impossible to read I dont think it is that bad, you get 13 animal hit dice, which are very bad, so you miss all the class features
serow_#R 10-20-06, 09:00 AM	is it possible to break it up into sentences and paragraphs? makes it much easier to read! :)
josephbt 10-20-06, 09:19 AM	Nope, it is not right. No class features and you're supposed to fight demons. HOW?
Antendren 10-20-06, 09:54 AM	I calculate a BAB of +9, not +11.
Ed-Zero 10-20-06, 10:31 AM	I'd probably use the Were-bear template instead of Were-boar, +16 strength right away.
ravenkith 10-20-06, 12:05 PM	If you go the lycanthrope route, you're almost obliged to take warshaper at some point. Immunity to crits, natural reach, +4 to STR & CON, improved natural weapon damage, fast healing.... And, I've got to be honest, in an anti-demon game, you're making a gimped out character: most of them will have dr/magic, if not dr/specific metal. All of them hit like mack trucks. If you know you're going anti-demon, a Cleric or a Paladin are your best bets... although a lot of demons get SR. They also tend to have good saves. So make sure, if cleric, that you max out the casting stat, take assay resistance (Complete Arcane), and bump your caster level whenever possible. AN illumian (Races of Destiny) Uur-Krau cleric of Mystra using dex as his casting stat can get pretty obscene AC with magic vestment and light armor, not to mention the persistification tricks. (Divine Metamagic(Complete Divine) + Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) + Persistent Spell (PGtF)) Take initiate of Mystra (PGtF) and persist that AM field, go sword & board, pop a magic vestment twice and a greater magic weapon once, and you're ready to rumble. Sure, the pit fiend or whatever can summon more demons, but since they are summoned, they wink out whenever they get within 10 ft of you. Su and Sp abilities are right off the table, as are spells themselves, and best yet, with a little luck, you can cast over the top of your own Antimagic field. Add in polymorph (PHB) via the spell domain, persisted, vigor (Spell Compendium), persisted, and divine power (the one that gives you full BAB, PHB), persisted, and you're talking about someone who's very good at whacking demons. Domains: Spell (PGtF) & Magic (PHB) The above is based heavily off of other people's work here on the CO boards, but I'm bad with names. If you go paladin, your priority should be dealing as much holy damage as possible in a smite-based build: maybe a charger of some kind. I have a halfling paladin that uses a wardog - the rules don't account for size changes except in terms of base damage - that I am quite happy with...there are a number of builds that exploit charge damage out there.... Oh, and by far the most broken thing in the Savage Species book is the anthropomorphic animals: specifically the anthropomorhic Bhaleen Whale. Combine with a low-la Template (with buyoff, see Unearthed Arcana) for maximum effect.
Wizu 10-20-06, 12:09 PM	Oh, and by far the most broken thing in the Savage Species book is the anthropomorphic animals: specifically the anthropomorhic Bhaleen Whale. Combine with Half-Dragon Template for maximum effect. Anthropomorphic giant squid! You silly whale lover... >.<
Subedei 10-20-06, 12:17 PM	Wizu is right, you'll need tentacles to be a proper hentai monster.
johnny_reb_21 10-21-06, 03:48 PM	i get a +9 bab from the animal classes and wereboar but the barb gives me a +2 for a total of 11 and since i am melee and have a str of 18 when in hybrid form and raged i have a 42 str and just str and bab give me a +27 to hit and with a 2 handed weapon + 24 dmg without anything from the weapons if this build is right...i didnt use savage species though its on my to buy list.. there is a template section on this site i used for it
Antendren 10-21-06, 08:21 PM	Animal HD give 3/4 BAB, so you only get +7, not +9.
johnny_reb_21 10-27-06, 09:19 AM	ok so even with a +7 BAB with a 42 str you get a +16 to hit and with a 2 handed weapon and a min of +24 dmg its still good though right ( i play mages and clerics and the clerics are not melee combatants)
ravenkith 10-27-06, 10:24 AM	No, that's not that great. I've seen much, much better. Try a halfling paladin riding a war dog into battle, specced out to take advantage of the lance's double damage on charges... Assume: STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 14 at the same ecl (15) he'd have 15d10 HD, +15 base attack bonus (one short of four attacks in a round with a full attack with his 'backup weapon') for a +17/+12/+7 attack routine... The pally gets self heal capailities, immunities, divine grace, among other things... If you really want to get sick, think about multi-classing out into cavalier or halfling outrider, or possibly into warmind... Warmind (or psychic warrior) is particularly nasty, because you can get access to the psionic lion's pounce power, yielding a full attack each time you charge, each yielding double damage... If you feel like you must go with a lycanthrope of some kind, either go with one that has pounce built in (Lion, Dire Lion, Tiger, Fleshraker Dinosaur), or has some kind of unique capability you can build around (think about a deathless frenzied were-dire weasel locking onto someone and draining con each round...yikes!)
ninja1 10-27-06, 11:08 AM	johnny_reb_21, you cannot apply both the Boar and the Dire Boar racial HD and templates. You are either one or the other. You are either a Wereboar: 3 racial HD 3 Level Adjustment (LA) 9 levels of Barbarian 15 Effective Character Level (ECL) or you could be a Dire Wereboar: 7 racial HD 3 Level Adjustment (LA) 5 levels of Barbarian 15 Effective Character Level (ECL) Also, with either choice, it is important to note that the stat bonuses and the HP from the bonus Con from a Lycanthrope template only applies while in your animal form or your Hybrid form. Shifting back to human form can kill you if you are seriously hurt... so get healed before walking into town. :) For anyone interested, here is the Savage Progressions article on Wereboars: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a
johnny_reb_21 10-27-06, 12:27 PM	due to the overwhelming mention of the anthromorphic bhaleen whale i will get savage species today.....i like the dmg the paladin does but i dont enjoy role playin the lawful aspect of it is holy liberator the chaotic version of a pally? i know the str and con bonus only apply in animal and hybrid forms so i'd need to keep an eye on the hp and even the rounds after i rage like i stated before i play mainly spell casters so what i am trying to do is use a lvl of barb for rage and a 2 handed weapon for dmg then get big fast have a high con and str some dr of better than 5/- and natural armor is a bonus....thats why i went wereboar werebear is LG weretiger and wereboar nuetral and wererat and werewolf are evil and while i enjoy NE this campaign is suppose to be NG compatible
ravenkith 10-27-06, 01:54 PM	like i stated before i play mainly spell casters so what i am trying to do is use a lvl of barb for rage and a 2 handed weapon for dmg then get big fast have a high con and str some dr of better than 5/- and natural armor is a bonus....thats why i went wereboar werebear is LG weretiger and wereboar nuetral and wererat and werewolf are evil and while i enjoy NE this campaign is suppose to be NG compatible That's your problem right there. With a Lycanthrope, anytime you use anything other than your natural weapons to attack with, you're doing yourself a disservice. Try looking at a Werelion Barbarian Warshaper, specialized in dealing damage with his claws. The feat: Improved Natural Attack, from the Monster Manual, really helps out...you can get an amulet of mighty fists (which should still apply to your claws), making them magical... Go with a charging build that has Shocktrooper (trading in ac for extra damage - I seem to remember you can PA with natural weapons), Karmic Strike (each time someone hits you, you get an aoo) and combat reflexes. Pick up a hat of disguise. Walk around in Hybrid form all the time. Realize that when you charge (base speed 60ft, IIRC lion + barb) you can do so out to 120ft, and you can get a full attack with your natural weapons every time you do so, including a rake attack, if I read the rules right, and you get a break on the rolls. With sufficient feat monkeying, you could conceivably be bouncing as much as 6d6 for damage with your claws. And you'll be large. With reach, big, big claws, fast healing, plusses from raging, hybrid and warshaper, immunity to crits, dr from two different sources.... and 5d8+6d12+4d8 ECL 8 Werelion/Barbarian 6/Warshaper 4 = 15th level Now, a Shifter Werelion Barbarian with Deathless Frenzy would be just plain nasty.... But! Lycanthropes, while fun, are underpowered compared to other builds. It's ridiculously easy to take one out, because of their low-for level HP.
johnny_reb_21 10-27-06, 05:31 PM	but depending on base animal type you can get lots of con....in hybrid or animal form plus toughness as a free feat i can role play well and i can come up with above average char backgrounds which is why dm's let me get away with more than most but how does one come up with a char background for an anthromorphic baleen whale? half dragons, good drow, lycanthropes, half celestials and half fiends, planetouched all are easy backgrounds with good beleivability but the baleen whale....help me out here ... i appreciate good rule jockeying and the finding of broken things
johnny_reb_21 10-30-06, 12:41 AM	ok the whale from the MM has a str of 35 the tarrasque 45 is it possible/feasable to build a anthromrphic taarasque?
ninja1 10-30-06, 10:46 AM	anthromrphic taarasque?... sure, with an above average char background, I don't see why not. sorry, I couldn't help myself... :D
demonsinmyhead 10-30-06, 11:06 AM	that would be cool though....and make it feral. with the VoP. Or, you could make a Champion of Gwynaryf (dont know if i spelled that right)....its basically a raging pally, which isn't that bad actually. Throw in some Frenzied Zerker-if I understand some of the exalted feats right you can choose not to attack allies in a frenzy.
ravenkith 10-30-06, 11:20 AM	No: the tarrasque is unique, and not an animal. BTW, an anthropomorphic whale can be explained as having been a normal whale that was used in heinous magical experiments, that resulted in his permanat alteration into a humanoid form, and being granted intelligence. Perhaps a wizrd was trying to create the ultimate footsoldier, or something...or a telepath the ultimate physical body for him to inhabit. Basically, think teenage mutant ninja turtles. Hrmmmm TMNW??? A whale with ninja levels...euw. The concept of a 'stealth whale' is breaking my brain.
johnny_reb_21 10-30-06, 06:13 PM	when i go from med to large i also get a +8 str a +4 con -2 dex -1 ac and +2 natural armor so my stat bonuses are higher.....wooot
johnny_reb_21 10-31-06, 07:15 AM	No: the tarrasque is unique, and not an animal. a tarrasque is a magical beast as such it would be possible for it to be breed to other things should it want to or whatever there is a chance it could produce progeny
Skadrian 10-31-06, 07:55 AM	no there is not. Only a few animals can interbreed, and always only to close relatives
ravenkith 10-31-06, 09:53 AM	Plus, I think the stat bonii already account for the size increase, although I could be mistaken.
Michigan 10-31-06, 04:22 PM	a tarrasque is a magical beast as such it would be possible for it to be breed to other things should it want to or whatever there is a chance it could produce progeny Gah! Considering that I've totaled not one, but both, of the family cars because of amorous whitetail deer this October, I don't even want toimagine the horror unleashed by Tarrasque rutting season. Say, just what would its LA be anyway? :P
ravenkith 10-31-06, 05:32 PM	...the horror unleashed by Tarrasque rutting season... :eek: Maybe it's rampaging because it doesn't have someone to get intimate with, if ya know what I mean. I mean, it is the only one of it's kind...I'd imagine that'd get kind of frustrating after a while... would also explain why it's a 'wandering monster' and hard to find...it's either killing everything off in sight, sulking all emo-style in the hills, or making goo-goo eyes at large barns that happen to be painted orange in color.... :D
johnny_reb_21 11-01-06, 08:54 AM	making goo-goo eyes at large barns that happen to be painted orange in color.... :D ok so use a polymorph effect on any fem in party and paint her orange....said fem gets some tarrasque luvin presto 1/2 tarrasque PC :D
johnny_reb_21 11-03-06, 10:30 AM	Plus, I think the stat bonii already account for the size increase, although I could be mistaken. http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=savage+progression&sp-a=sp10025a73&sp-p=all&sp-f=ISO-8859-1&sp-k=Dungeons+and+Dragons&sp-t=dnd the above link is the WotC progression charts i used Table SP-8: The Dire Boar (Lycanthrope) Class ClL HitDice BAB Fort. Ref. Will SkillPoints Special 1st 1d8 +0 +2 +2 +2 2 + Int mod. Con +2, natural armor +2, boar abilities, gore 2nd 2d8 +1 +3 +3 +3 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Con +2, natural armor +2, scent 3rd 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +3 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Con +2, natural armor +2, ferocity 4th 4d8 +3 +4 +4 +4 2 + Int mod. Str +2 5th 5d8 +3 +4 +4 +4 2 + Int mod. Str +2 6th 6d8 +4 +5 +5 +5 2 + Int mod. Str +4, Endurance, Large 7th 7d8 +5 +5 +5 +5 2 + Int mod. Str +4 once you get large yes they give you +8 Str but no con no nat armor no dex penalty so i do not think they added the size bonus in especially if you look at the brown bear progression for the werebear with the brown bear from the dire bear Table SP-11: The Brown Bear (Lycanthrope) Class CL HitDice BAB Fort. Ref. Will Skill Points Special 1st 1d8 +0 +2 +2 +0 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Dex +2, natural armor +2, bear abilities, bite 2nd 2d8 +1 +3 +3 +0 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Con +2, scent 3rd 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Con +2, natural armor +2, 2 claws 4th 4d8 +3 +4 +4 +1 2 + Int mod. Str +2, Con +2, improved grab, Track 5th 5d8 +3 +4 +4 +1 2 + Int mod. Str +4, Con +2, natural armor +1 6th 6d8 +4 +5 +5 +2 2 + Int mod. Str +4, Large you get large as a last level and no +8 to str no +4 con no Dex penalty no +2 nat AC....that said i think they forgot to include the size bonus on the templates and they are not included....now instead of 2 lvls barb i thought about 1 babr with feat extra rage and then 1 lvl cleric preferably to a diety with the str domain... here is why: go hybrid gain str con (+to hit dmg a la Str bonus, Hp through Con and Nat AC bonus) cast enlarge person go from large to huge (+to hit dmg a la Str bonus, Hp through Con and Nat AC bonus) rage (+to hit dmg a la Str bonus, Hp through Con) i should be able to maintain rage for at least 14 rounds (base Con 18, +6 dire boar, +4 large +4 huge, +4 rage total 36 Con mod bonus = +13 also what book is warshaper out of...i like the idea of fast healing and immune crits.....also i know there is a feat i think its is from races of stone that allows a person to use their con instead of wis for will saves....just cant think of the name of it it would be wicked sweet though high fort and will saves med ref saves but with all the Hp i wouldnt worry to much about ref however the save or die from spellcasters is a worry especially with the lower will saves if i added a +19 to my will saves and then +3 from iron will and an additional +2 from rage i think i should make the save (+24 to will save) unless i get a 1 or its vs. a diety
Anauroch 11-03-06, 11:46 AM	Johnny - gaining large size does not always give you the same benefits. A monster which is advanced in size gains the mods you mention. Not so a lycanthrope. The Savage Progression articles were written to present a balanced way to get into the class/template without having to start at higher level. There is no way you are going to get those other bonuses for increased size, sorry. And concerning Savage Species - have you read a few threads here where it is mentioned? Many of the things in SS are just plain broken. And stupid. Wanna be a whale? Go for it! :D And if you come up with a anthromorphic tarrasque - I suggest you give it a LA of +1. Give it a LA of +0 if: anthromrphic taarasque?... sure, with an above average char background, I don't see why not. :D
Anauroch 11-03-06, 11:48 AM	An afterthought: Why don't you start a new thread and ask for the most broken combination of anthromorphic and/or feral/lycanthrope/whatever stuff do make you a powerful character? I'm sure people will come up with something - if you have fun with it, go for it! :) Obviously I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you cannot! ;)
johnny_reb_21 11-04-06, 11:03 AM	i know SS is broken...thats why i chose lycanthrope from the MM and i know the savage prgression lets me play it at a lower level so that i can RP with the group from lvl 1 the monster manual is the primary source and it also has the stat bonus for size increase so i have the savage progression which only mentions "your now large in animal and hybrid form, by the way take a -1 to AC have a nice day. and i have the primary source which says ...from medium to large +8 str +4 con -2 dex +2 natural armor -1 AC and if two sources of info contradict i'm suppose to use the primary source which would be the MM so he'd get the size bonus in 2 of 3 forms and the progression makes no mention of the con bonus dex penalty or nat armor after reaching large in size while severly broken chars (i.e. Pun Pun, the omniscificer) are funny and wicked sweet they are not meant for role playing.... i can see a lycanthrope adventuring for a number of reasons....the baleen whale not so much which is why i was tryin to figure out all the lycan stuff... sure i could go human fighter and get more feats than anyone or the typical half orc barb but different is good sometimes and definitly memorable
Anauroch 11-04-06, 11:33 AM	the monster manual is the primary source and it also has the stat bonus for size increase so i have the savage progression which only mentions "your now large in animal and hybrid form, by the way take a -1 to AC have a nice day. and i have the primary source which says ...from medium to large +8 str +4 con -2 dex +2 natural armor -1 AC and if two sources of info contradict i'm suppose to use the primary source which would be the MM so he'd get the size bonus in 2 of 3 forms and the progression makes no mention of the con bonus dex penalty or nat armor after reaching large in size Kudos to you - you've grasped the concept. But you are wrong in this case. All stat increases are shown in the savage progression. All other abilities and powers are explained in the text. Look at the SRD entry on the werebear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm). Compare the strength score of the human form and the other two forms. Note the difference: +16. That's exactly what the werebear is gaining via savage progression. Could you please tell me why a character should gain even more? while severly broken chars (i.e. Pun Pun, the omniscificer) are funny and wicked sweet they are not meant for role playing So true... but those are more than broken... have you any concept of balance? Look at the level in the savage progression when the werebear gains large size: +4 to strength Large size => Reach (this is powerful, you know) and higher damage with claws and bite, -1 to AC and attack rolls Now you want what on top of that? Another +8 to strength +4 to Con and so on? Sorry, but even though you seem to know which sources override which, you have no feeling at all for what is balanced and what is not. Be happy with Reach and the increased damage of the natural weapons as well as the +4 to strength - it is quite powerful indeed. Role playing - you are absolutely right here... playing a human every time is boring... a lycanthrope can be a very nice character! Have fun! ;)