Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 11:58 AM	Some quick information, Im at work, dont have my ninja by my side, so its based on pure memory ;), Im playing in eberron, we have a houserule where I must complete all the PrC's I take, so no dipping in 5 diffrent PrCs. Okie, so Im pretty sick and tired of the lack of offensive power in my ninja (Complete Adventoure). We have substituted his sudden strike with sneak attack (at reduced damage, on lvl 20 he would have 7d6 instead of 10d6). I've for flavor reasons taken a decent charisma (I believe its 14), I've also taken least dragonmark and I want to take the dragonmark heir prestige class because I think it adds a lot of roleplay into my character. But as I said before, my character is lacking severe offensive power, he is so weak in combat that its not even funny anymore :/ So my question for you is, can he be saved? Can you add more offensive power without removing dragonmark heir PrC and not dipping into 7 diffrent PrCs ;) Perhaps 1 more PrC (10 level or 5 level, doesnt matter) or some feats that I should take? Please help me save this guy! :) I can post more information if you want when I get home from work. EDIT: my feats so far: weapon finess and least dragonmark, was planning on TWF with two kukris
Verdaloth 06-01-05, 12:08 PM	Craven is an awsome feat. You get +1 damage to sneak attack/ level. And maybe take ninja spy. Any what weapons?
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 12:14 PM	that sounds tempting, can you tell me where I can find the feat and the PrC? My weapon of choice is currently a kukri, but can easily change it :) Its just a small flavor, nothing important for my character
HiFromHell 06-01-05, 12:24 PM	Craven is an awsome feat. You get +1 damage to sneak attack/ level. And maybe take ninja spy. Any what weapons? where is this feat from?
Norhg 06-01-05, 12:33 PM	that sounds tempting, can you tell me where I can find the feat and the PrC? My weapon of choice is currently a kukri, but can easily change it :) Its just a small flavor, nothing important for my character Craven is from champions of ruin, ninja spy is from Oriental Adventures.
PhoenixInferno 06-01-05, 12:45 PM	Craven also gives you -2 to saves vs fear effects, just so you guys know.
cvazi 06-01-05, 01:13 PM	gratuitous use of poison? they do get poison use and improved poison use many levels before anyone else. CV has some pretty mean ones. so does BoED. Also Deadly Precision [General] You empty your mind of all distracting emotion, becoming an instrument of deadly precision. Prerequisite Dex 15, base attack bonus +5. Benefit You have deadly accuracy with your sneak attacks. You can reroll any result of 1 on your sneak attack’s extra damage dice. You must keep the result of the reroll, even if it is another 1. from XPH is nice for backstabbers
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 01:31 PM	thx for the input, and I use poison every now and then, but they are very expensive, so its limited. I have thought about the Deadly Precision, however I'm wondering if its that good :/ I just feel that I have gimped myself too much by going into the Dragonmark Heir PrC
rilem 06-01-05, 01:35 PM	I'm not a fan of Deadly Precision. It sounds nice but I don't think it's worth a feat unless you've got plenty to spare. I prefer feats that give your Sneak Attacks more flexibility (Staggering Strike, Hamstring) or make them more likely to hit or deal damage (Sacred Strike, Deft Strike). What level are you at? Books available? Stats? If you can use the fairly common Houserule requirements for Invisible Blade (Finesse, WF) instead of the odd ranged combat ones in Cwar (which are useless with a kukri), then Invisible Blade would be a good choice, especially with your good charisma.
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 01:43 PM	I shall post my stats when I get home, as for books allowed, well nothing been mentioned or disallowed, so I assume I can use any book as long as it makes sense (means: not broken or uber super godlike powerful) :) those feats you mention, which books are they from so I can study them?
oxybe 06-01-05, 01:59 PM	try going into the dervish PrC. a ninja dervish is great flavor if you ask me: a ninja dashes towards his enemy, quickly turns invisible and without a sound, his enemy drops from a thousand silent cuts. the ninja is never seen again. your (now) sneak attack + dervish dance is good synergy. in and out attacks. add in the fact that the ninja's ki abilities help. If i remember correctly, there is a weapon enchantment that adds sneak attack damage. add this to both kukris (if i understand you want to TWF with 2 kurkris) and with the thousand cuts abilities you will rip anything to shreads.
thegreatbuddha 06-01-05, 02:46 PM	Dread Pirate :D
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 03:08 PM	finally home :) Here are the stats of my ninja: Str: 12 Dex: 17 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 16 Cha: 14 currently 5th level :) Good call on the dervish there, I can see the flavor, especially with my ninja as he is a performer who dances :P Got 6 ranks in Perform(Dance), so maybe I should work him into dervish, my DM is aware of my lack of interest in this ninja :S But I just looked at it and I saw the BAB and feat requiments, they are too heavy for my ninja :( I have 2 feats already going for the Dragonmark Heir, and I need 4 feats to qualify for dervish, which means that if I go for it, I cant take full levels in dragonmark heir, which means this a no go unfortunately :(
rilem 06-01-05, 03:42 PM	Dervish wouldn't work that well, anyway. Ghost step is treated as invisibility, not greater invisibility, meaning that most of your attacks wouldn't be sneak attacks (unless you're flanking). Those feats, btw: Staggering Strike, Deft Strike (Cadv.); Sacred Strike (BOED); Hamstring (Cwar) So you're pretty much stuck with that DragonHeir PrC — I know nothing about Eberron; does that give you anything good mechanically? I think I'd recommend returning the Ninja to Sudden Strike and progressing as a feinter. If you can, get your DM to agree to that alternative Invis. Blade, and take WF (Kukri at 6). Progress to: Ninja10/InvisBlade5/DragonHeir5 (BAB +15, Saves 9/15/9, Sudden Strike +5d6, Sneak +3d6, Feint as Free Action, Bleeding Wound Ethereal Ghost Step. Or, for +16 BAB, bail from Ninja at 8 and take 2 fighter levels.
Gerdreg 06-01-05, 03:45 PM	Ninja is an offensive Powerhouse as is, as long as you have enough Ki. Take as many Wis bonuses as you can get to increase your Ki Ghost Step = Invisibility so you can use Sudden Strike on every attack while you Ghost Step as they are denied their Dex to AC (PHB 151). At level 10, you actually become Etheral, instead of Invisible, which means stuff can't even hit you back while you Sudden Strike (you got Ghost Strike at level 8 which allows you to attack while Ethereal) though you only get one attack as Ghost Strike is a move action (and it costs you another Ki). As for PrCs, one really stands out, The Invisible Blade (which requires a dagger or kukri anyway). At level 5 (of 5) it gives the rediculous ability to feint as a Free Action which, of coarse, causes your opponent to lose his Dex bonus to AC for your next attack. There is some errata floating around that removes the two ranged feats from it's requirements also. Ninja 15/ Invisible Blade 5 will give you... 7 + Wis bonus Ki uses per day 8d6 Sudden Strike + 3d6 Sneak Attack = 11d6 total BAB +16, 4 attacks per round Dex, Wis, and Int to AC Also concentrate on feats like Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter (CV) and Flick of the Wrist (RotW), so you can catch foes flat footed and save you Ki uses for the heat of battle.
Verdaloth 06-01-05, 03:54 PM	what good is quick recoiniter?
glider007 06-01-05, 04:12 PM	Actually Ghost Step is GREATER INVISIBILITY Read the description, it says you become invisible for one round. It never says you become invisible for one round OR until you attack. There is an swift invisibility spell in the same book, and all the invisibility spells state clearly that you are invisibile for x duration or until you attack, if attacking dispells it. Ghost step however, is plain and simple, you are invisible for one round. Period. No conditions at all. At high levels you can do good deal of damage as your BAB improves since all attacks you make in 1 round will be treated as sneak attacks. Here is a completely different approach for you. Take practiced spell caster feat and wizard for level 6 and become a daggerspell mage at level 7. Take 5 levels of Daggerspell mage and then take Arcane Trickster. You'll be accumulating sneak atack dice from both Daggerspell mage and Arcane Trickter, and your ray attacks will be absolutely deadly, since they are ranged touch attacks and if you activate ghost step this means you only have to get a 10 only to hit your opponent. With your DEX bonus and BAB it is impossible to miss it unless you roll 1. Practiced spell caster will allow you to cast spells 4 level higher, so you can start 5d6 shocking grasps right away. And remember that sneak attack is also added to the damag of any spell as long as you make an attack roll for it. If you dont want to take aarcane trickster, stick with daggerspell, because you can make multiple touch attacks with your daggers at high levels. Imagine a double shocking grasp attack as a Daggerspell mage for 5d6+5d6 plus 4d6 SA +4d6 SA for the second attack. There is your 18d6 damage and you need to get a 10 on your attack roll only. (they are flat footed due to ghost step and this is a touch attack)
rilem 06-01-05, 04:44 PM	Actually Ghost Step is GREATER INVISIBILITY Read the description, it says you become invisible for one round.... Here is a completely different approach for you. Take practiced spell caster feat and wizard for level 6 and become a daggerspell mage at level 7. Take 5 levels of Daggerspell mage and then take Arcane Trickster. I certainly could've misread that; if so, definitely keep Sudden Strike rather than the slower Sneak Progression. However, I don' think the Daggerspell idea is worth the gymnastics. He's burned two feats already for DragonMark Heir, and he's already said he has to COMPLETE any PrC he enters. No jumping into AT. Also, Daggerspell mage requires WF (Dagger), I think, which he doesn't have.
Whakapapa 06-01-05, 06:17 PM	thanks for all the replies. I've talked with my DM about the invisibility ninjas get, and he wasn't reluctant to make it work like greater invisibility, I've also got the sudden strike back if the invisibility works as stated here. That alone should give my ninja more punch. I've also asked him about Invisible Blade, and he said, it might not be overpowered to have enough free actions to use IBs free action feint on every attack. Normally we play with just 1 free action every round. I haven't asked him about the preq for it, but I dont think it will be a problem. So if this goes through my ninja should have plenty of punch! :) Thanks for all the suggestions. We have outlawed the daggerspell mage and the druid variant of it, because we feel its too overpowered, especially the last ability, and as relim said, I need to finish the PrC's so it makes sense in RP way, and I support that houserule ^^ I plan to take these feats: Level: 1st - Least Dragonmark (I can cast the spell Darkness 1/day, spell like ability) 3rd - Weapon Finess 6th - Weapon Focus (kukri) 9th - Two weapon fighting 12th - Favored in house (preq. for the dragonmark heir) 15th - Imp. Two weapon fighting or something else ;) 18th - something, need suggestions When I have taken levels in Dragonmark Heir, I will have more action points, I get some new spell like ability and the last one I get is, shadow walk 1/day, Im counting on it to save my :embarrass some times :) any input would be great, or new ideas for how to improve him
oxybe 06-01-05, 09:59 PM	as far as i know 1 free action is all anyone gets each round. level 18 feat, if possible greater 2 weapon fighting. if not, two weapon defence maybe? combat expertise could give you more AoO's since you have a high dex. the feats that replace sneak attack damage (and thus sudden strike) could help.
Whakapapa 06-02-05, 04:14 AM	it aint written anywhere that you only get 1 free action, it says you can only cast 1 quickened spell in a round, you also only get 1 swift or immidiate action, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say 1 free action. I have thought about the feats that replace sneak attack, especially staggering strike, but I'm worried that it might be useless as monsters and NPCs tends to have high fortitude saves. I think my damage output at lvl 15 would be something like: 1d4+4 (+1 str, +3 kukri)+5d6 sudden/sneak attack (1d6 goes to staggering strike) + 1d6 (if Im lucky and get a bonus damage enchantment) = minimum fortitude save on 11, and maximum on 41, average would be around 24. On lvl 15 and those I fight, should have a fortitude save of atleast +10, and often much more. Hamstring also looks nice, but its useability is very limited, few are the times I must give chase to a NPC, often they drop dead before they have the chance to flee, and with a warlock in group, they should not be able to get that far ^^
Rnd 06-02-05, 04:37 AM	Invisible Blade from "Complete Warrior" is 5 level Prc, which give you feint as free action.
Gerdreg 06-02-05, 07:25 AM	what good is quick recoiniter? +2 Initiative (in additon to the free spot and listen check every round) At the start of a battle you are flat-footed until your initiative. This will mean a round of Sudden Attacks for a Ninja if he wins initiative.
oxybe 06-02-05, 01:27 PM	keep adding enchantments to your kukris, you will have extra gold. use it, don't wait to find magic weapons, make them, and add abilities as you go. pay your wizard for his troubles. buy him a new robe and the stuff to make his wands/rods/staffs. as long as you can afford the weapon enchantments, keep adding them. most ''uber'' weapons only have a +1 or +2 enchantment and a heap of abilities stacked on them. better yet, since you are playing eberron, become good buddies with a high-level NPC artificier. try getting the wounding ability on both your kukris. with twf and multiple attacks, loosing many pts of con each turn can help take down the melee opponents faster. remember, a 10HD char that goes from 16 to 15 con looses 10 hp off his max total, on top of the damage you deal normally. if i know one thing and one thing alone, never have a low AC / mid-low hp char run into combat, even if it is for some extra damage, unless said char has a huge amount of buffs activated. once it's the monster/NPC's turn, you will most likely get whacked for loads of damage, which is bad for the poor ninja. the ninja works best as an invisible flanker. delay your turn, stay in the shadows, go invisible/etheral and help out the main melee char. either that or help protect the wizard incase an enemy can pierce the front line. i was probly thinking about the swift/immediate actions. my bad.
Whakapapa 06-02-05, 02:24 PM	yea, I have been thinking in the same lines. One benifit I hope I get from going into Dragonmark Heir PrC is to get a great resourceful house that I can get stuff from. As in new enchantments/weapons/magic items. The crunch sux for it, but the RP resourcers I gain will hopefully make up for it :) My problem was though, that we didn't have any main attackers. Our priest/paladin was the closest thing but he died as a tower tumbled upon him ;) But maybe a new one will come in the game and I can support him. I cant however decide if I really want to go into the Invisible Blade PrC, because I like the powers a ninja gets and after discovering that I wont turn visible after one attack, I think going ninja 15 and dragonmark heir 5 will actually be a great offensive power house! :) He will be extremely hard to kill aswell, because he is great at climbing, jumping and tumbling, he can turn invisible/ethereal and he gets some other nasty ninja powers. Plus with dragon mark heir, I can shadowwalk away if its a real problem. What do you think? :)
oxybe 06-02-05, 03:01 PM	wow. a tower? what happened? did a wand of fireball misactivate horribly in sharn? anyways, sorry to hear about the pally. Nice call with the Heir & house thing, i often forget that the heir is highly regarded within their house, you can often call on favors. since you are both ninja AND heir, you could end up being a valued spy... and im pretty sure the information you could bring back would definately be worth a +1 or +2 valued weap enchantment. having the high tumble is a definate plus in regards to your crap armor/sheild AC (thank the gods you have the monk AC bonus). your climb and jump (if i remember the ninja has class abilities in regard to those skills.) will be usefull if you plan on doing the ''traditional'' role of the ninja/spy. and yeah, ninja does get some pretty nasty powers later on. i hate saying this, but abuse those powers. if a villain is making a speech, go etheral and strike the bugger down before he can do anything. sneak past guards and kill em while they can't see you. go invisible & open the front gate after climbing the wall. it may be a bit underhanded, but you're a ninja, you don't have to take BS from anyone. except higher ranking ninjas.
Whakapapa 06-02-05, 07:49 PM	hehe no, we are not in sharn, we got hired to retrieve art objects in Xen'Drik, and I stole a orb (an eye actually, which was said to be a focus in a ritual that would steal thousands of lives from elves and make a certain giant into a god) from a room filled with traps. The room got sealed and water started to rise. My character was pretty weak atm cause he had been poisoned to 0 in str and was just recovering from it, so I just panicked and hammered the eye into a wall that held us captive, luckily it was the key, causing the wall to shatter, but the tower started to collapse. So I ran for my life (thank god for balance and high reflex saves), but two collegues didn't escape and died (a warmage and priest/paladin), they tried to help each other, but I was more busy getting out ^^ Yea, I should be a dishonorble bastard hehe :P If I remember correctly, I will get something that protects my ninja from scrying attempts if I take 15 levels, that will be awesome :) I do plan on becoming a spy/infiltrator, as my ninja is in House Phiarlan (Mark of Shadow, which is why I've taken ranks in perform(dance), I was at a point considering the snowflake dance feat in Frostburn, but it requires bardic music usage), and I should be able to gain favor in the house. Currently he only takes orders from higher ranking people in his house and no one else, so I should be able to roam about freely enough :) By going all ninja, I open up 1 feat, which means I can take TWF at lvl 6, instead at level 9, so I think I will end up doing something like this: 1st - Least Dragonmark (I can cast the spell Darkness 1/day, spell like ability) 3rd - Weapon Finess 6th - TWF 9th - Staggering Strike or Improved Initiative 12th - Favored in house (preq. for the dragonmark heir) 15th - Imp. TWF or Quick Recoiniter 18th - still cant decide So Im stuck at going for some feats to forgo sneak attack or become faster in initiative. I like being first to act, at lvl 15 if I go that route, I will have +10 intiative and +11 on lvl 16. Thats very fast IMO ;) But then again, staggering people is extemely mean. Perhaps I could do a combo, where I take Imp. Initiative at lvl 9, Staggering strike at lvl 15 and then Imp. TWF at lvl 18. Is there any feats that improve poisons? I would like to use them more, but the DC of poisons are rediciously low compared to the prices... :/