Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xabre 01-23-06, 08:47 AM	I was thinking about creating an Astral Deva, based around the Savage Species 20 level progression. I was also thinking about giving it Exalted feats. I was specifically considering Vow of Poverty. The benefits of the Vow are, of course, incredibly powerful. However, I have trouble picturing a holy angel, even with a ton of Exalted feats, giving up some highly magical Holy-Avenger style of sword. They don't really use armor anyway because of their extreme natural armor over time... and I didn't want to waste a feat on wearing armor anyway... so the Vow would be a bit helpful anyway... Thoughts?
Gerdreg 01-23-06, 09:09 AM	Take a look at the Ghaele (Eladrin). We have a guy in our group that is playing one with VoP. He loves it so far. SS has a 20 level progression for them as well. One thing that stands out is that they have the same spellcasting progression as a Cleric until levl 14.
LordofProcrastination 01-23-06, 09:10 AM	Yes, it can "work" mechanically, but I'm not yet convinced that it would be an optimal character. At least, compared to a "typical" CoDzilla with radioactive VoP breath. The issue is that pretty much all of the astral deva's neat abilities can be reproduced with spells and class features easily available to even minimally optimizaed spellcasters. Let's see... low BAB and HP, mediocre saves, and the only major variability in the build deriving from feat selection and clever use of the at-will polymorph ability. Plus, the "stun" ability only works with a mace, which a straight-astral-deva can't wield or magically reproduce. In general, a VoP Astral Deva is probably better than a non-VoP Astral Deva, but certainly far worse off than a more mundane divine gish.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-23-06, 12:41 PM	Yes, it can "work" mechanically, but I'm not yet convinced that it would be an optimal character. At least, compared to a "typical" CoDzilla with radioactive VoP breath. The issue is that pretty much all of the astral deva's neat abilities can be reproduced with spells and class features easily available to even minimally optimizaed spellcasters. Let's see... low BAB and HP, mediocre saves, and the only major variability in the build deriving from feat selection and clever use of the at-will polymorph ability. Plus, the "stun" ability only works with a mace, which a straight-astral-deva can't wield or magically reproduce. In general, a VoP Astral Deva is probably better than a non-VoP Astral Deva, but certainly far worse off than a more mundane divine gish. Bah. You're forgetting cool factor LoP. A divine gish isn't NEARLY as cool as an astra deva. I would suggest going for a Ghaele as well, they are pretty sick. At-will-cure spells is awesome at low levels. Not to mention the alternate globe form for escapes. The globe of invulnerability that you have active at all times is also pretty nifty. All in all, there are a lot of abilities that the ghaele or Astral deva have that a normal build would not have without bending over backwards to get it. No a persistant globe of invulnerability is not the same as one that can be re-activated at will as a free-action. Don't get me wrong, there are down sides... like losing a lot of feats and hit points, but it will be undeniably fun to play.
Xabre 01-23-06, 12:47 PM	There were two reasons I was avoiding Ghale: 1, less hit dice (therefore less skills, less BAB, less feats). 2, we already had a cleric in the party, and so I didn't want to step on that character's toes. The other suggestion was a Trumpet Archon... considering part of the build is the Trumpet/Greatsword, that shouldn't go against the VoP, true? But the Deva, since it specifically DOESNT have cleric casting, was one reason I was considering it instead.
Mystic Ninja 01-23-06, 02:07 PM	Take a look at the Ghaele (Eladrin). We have a guy in our group that is playing one with VoP. He loves it so far. SS has a 20 level progression for them as well. One thing that stands out is that they have the same spellcasting progression as a Cleric until levl 14. One thing I noticed in the savage progression is that it says "You cast spells as a cleric of your level, maximum caster level 14." It just caps caster level, not spells know / slots, or anything else by raw. Unless you use just buffs or things that don't scale based on caster level this isn't that great, and you won't be overcomming SR. But as you read the RAW in savage species, you end up casting as a 20th level cleric, just with less HD and a few bonus goodies, and a poor caster level.
Xabre 01-23-06, 03:58 PM	My GM would never take that kind of loophole... the class is meant to be a caster as a 14th level cleric... and he'd probably pull out the core Monster Manual entry to show it. The good news is that my GM will probably allow me to take a longsword with VoP instead of a simple weapon... he agrees with me than an angel should have a holy sword, instead of a morningstar. :P He's even willing to give me Ancestral Relic, if I want... though I think that's overboard, along with the Exalted Strike of VoP.
Mystic Ninja 01-24-06, 01:01 AM	My GM would never take that kind of loophole... the class is meant to be a caster as a 14th level cleric... and he'd probably pull out the core Monster Manual entry to show it. The good news is that my GM will probably allow me to take a longsword with VoP instead of a simple weapon... he agrees with me than an angel should have a holy sword, instead of a morningstar. :P He's even willing to give me Ancestral Relic, if I want... though I think that's overboard, along with the Exalted Strike of VoP. Oh, I agree with your GM, and I wouldnt allow my players to do that either, but really at 20th level with 10 hit dice, you need all the help you can get, and extra spells will only just begin to cover that. Same with Ancestral Relic, it won't be overpowered because you won't have anything else going for you. VoP is such an overwhelming setback to a regular character [let alone one with so few hit dice] that a single good weapon won't be game breaking. I've actually let players use Ancestral Relic with VoP before, and it barely got them up to par with the rest of the players, I say go for it.