| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Th_Ar_Al03-15-07, 08:48 PM | How a basic pantheon would be? I mean, there is portfolios that are just necessary: life, good, evil, the elements, etc. So I was thinking in trying to create a "generic pantheon" and I am here to ask your help. If you had to do a pantheon of only 12 "basic" gods, what would they be? what would be they portforlios, power and themes? |
| Kakita_Duelist03-15-07, 09:19 PM | ok first of all, you need gods for races, alignments, general themes (valor, tyranny, secrets, etc.), natural phemomena (death, the Sun, Night, nature in general, etc.), and the elements. Granted, many can be combined, and in fact should, but you might end up needing more. the problem with 12, is that you may not have enough for both the alignments and the races, which should be the main deal. you need 9 for alignments, and then at least 5 for races, campaign depending. |
| ripvanwormer03-15-07, 09:32 PM | If you're only going to include 12 gods, skip racial gods altogether. All races can worship the same god of the sun, war, or whatever, although they may call those gods by different names. |
| Th_Ar_Al03-15-07, 10:07 PM | I don't think that "race gods" are necessary, at all, they are even ridiculous, I mean, sure, a race needs a god (or explanation) that created it, but like rip sayed, it should be a god of another aspect, that just created the race too. I don't see why would you need 9 gods of the alingments, just Evil and Good could be enough, Law and Chaos could be included in another gods, even if don't, 4~5 is more than enough. |
| Janusunaj03-15-07, 10:15 PM | Good Evil Law Chaos Life Death Arcane Magic |
| Arturius103-15-07, 10:24 PM | Twelve.....is this based on the zodiac or something? If not, just a coincidence. As far as absolute needs, probably only 9 gods to cover all alignments. Good god ideas would be nature, war, life, magic, death, time, fire, water, earth, air, void, creation. Also twelve! Good times. |
| ripvanwormer03-15-07, 10:40 PM | I don't think that "race gods" are necessary, at all, they are even ridiculous, I mean, sure, a race needs a god (or explanation) that created it, but like rip sayed, it should be a god of another aspect, that just created the race too. Well, I'm an advocate of racial pantheons - that each culture has its own separate group of gods. If you're only creating one pantheon for the whole world, you don't need racial gods within that pantheon. Maybe all the gods created all the races together. As for 12 gods, here's one possible set: 1. Agriculture/Earth/Childbirth/The Hearth/Fertility (married to the sky deity) 2. Sky/Weather/Rain/Battle/Fertility (married to the earth deity) 3. Mathematics/Contemplation/Monks/Order/Logic/Magic/Psionics/Light/The Sun 4. Trickery/Rogues/Theft/Humor/Luck/Mischief/Sorcery/Bards/Chaos/Darkness/Creation/The Moon 5. Death/Judgment/Souls/Dreams/Sleep/Healing/The Underworld 6. War/Fighters/Paladins/Honor 7. Fear/Panic/Horror/Insanity/Nightmares/Suffering 8. War/Fighters/Blackguards/Treachery 9. Fire/Smiths/Metal/Creation (might be connected to all four elements) 10. Hunters/Forests/The Wilderness/Barbarians/Rangers/Druids 11. Beasts/Vermin/Blood/Murder/Barbarians/Rangers/Druids 12. Fate/Destiny/Prophecy |
| Millennium03-16-07, 12:55 PM | Almost all pantheons, real-world and fantasy, include a trickster figure of some sort. The trickster isn't necessarily held to be evil, but he does represent a sort of inversion of society's normal values. In D&D terms, tricksters are Chaotic almost by definition; you might find some Neutral tricksters, but I doubt you'll ever see a Lawful one. Hermes from Greek mythology (Mercury from Roman) is probably the best example of a relatively benevolent trickster. Coyote, a figure in some Native American faiths, is more neutral. Loki from Norse mythology is malevolent, though Satan is often held as the quintessential example of evil tricksters. Uzume from Shinto is one of the few female tricksters out there. Olidammara is the main trickster in the core pantheon, while Tymora and Beshaba fill the role in Forgotten Realms. Anyway, this is just something to keep in mind. With a little creativity, just about any deity could be made into a trickster-figure. One other thing I'm surprised only one other person has mentioned is the need for a fertility figure. Every religion out there has one of these; indeed, fertility figures are usually one of the first deities to appear in any pantheon. Fertility figures are usually female, and are often associated with nature and agriculture. Chauntea from Forgotten Realms is a standard example, as is Cybele from Greek and Roman mythology (if you watch HBO's Rome, Cybele is who all those women chanting "Magna Mater" are praying to). Elhonna fills the role in the core pantheon, though 3e de-emphasizes this role compared to earlier editions. |
| ripvanwormer03-16-07, 01:22 PM | Fertility figures are usually female Really you need both a male and a female fertility figure. Normally this is a storm/sky god whose rain fertilizes the earth goddess, but Egyptian mythology inverts this with the sky goddess Nut and earth god Geb. There are other examples of earthly male fertility gods, like Priapus and Pan. |
| Eric88803-16-07, 04:19 PM | The key to a good pantheon is making sure that every charecter in the game will find a dietie they like. here is a simple cut and dry breakdown of generic gods for a campaign: 1) Generic LE god. doesn't nead anything fancy, just something vilounous and oppressive. e.g. Hextor, Asmodeus, Bane 2) Generic CE god. same, but more insane then cunning. prone to wanton destruction with little regaurd to effective power broking. e.g. Gruumsh, Cyric 3) god of nature. you can take it or leave it. since druids usually worship nature itself, its unnessary but good for monks, rangers, farmers, or for young couples who nead to start a family. e.g. Chantea, Obad'hai 4) god of healing/the sun. some god dedicated to helping people. genericly good, not too deep. e.g. Pelor, Mishikel, Lathander 5) god of LG boy scout ideals. Honor, Humility, Charity, Truth, Justice, Wisdom... any of the generic ideals that most people ignore. just pick one, they're all the same. its usually a bad idea to have more then one LG god since they are so simular. usually not a predominant dietie since he is so extreme. e.g. Tyr, Bahamut/Paladine, Heironeous 6) god of adventure. usually CG. he is a god of fortune, luck, profit, all the things that adventure is about. good for rogues, or people who don't want to worry about a strict ethos. e.g. Tymora, Waukeen 7) god of war. always a must. usually CN or N. again, don't get to complex. he values strength, courage, agression, and ambition. he is usually ignored by the other gods because he has little in the way of personal goals. do not confuse him as a god of fighters. he's not. e.g. Ares, Tempus, Clangedon 8) god of knowledge/invention. good for plot hooks when the party doesn't know what to do. the key with making gods of knowledge interesting is make them a little insane. e.g. Ohgma, Deneir, Zivilan 9) god of magic. magic is power, so it is very important that if you do have a god of magic, that he be extremely powerful, otherwise he's counter-intuitive. usually has few clerics and very little interest in the world in general. e.g. Mystra, Baccob 10) god of secrets. good for underground cults and hidden dungeons. excellent excuse for traps. this god is an oft-ignored and underused resource for DMs. usually evil. e.g. Vecna 11) god of art/love/passion. usually CG or CN. good for humorous games, odd charecters, and holidays. 12) god of death. the most important thing here is its goals and purpose. there are three basic types: the anubis-like judge of the dead, always neutral. the master of undead, decay, and pestilence, always evil. or the god of fate, usually neutral. this god you can usually live without. he's overdone. |
| Wyvern7603-16-07, 05:14 PM | I really like the pantheon of the Unification Church in Dragonstar. There's a list of the gods and their domains here (http://hastur.net/dragonstar/wiki/UnificationChurch). Wyvern |
| Treymordin03-16-07, 05:19 PM | I am glad to see the gods of Krynn represented here. |
| Wyvern7603-17-07, 03:46 PM | Almost all pantheons, real-world and fantasy, include a trickster figure of some sort. The trickster isn't necessarily held to be evil, but he does represent a sort of inversion of society's normal values. In D&D terms, tricksters are Chaotic almost by definition; you might find some Neutral tricksters, but I doubt you'll ever see a Lawful one. .... Olidammara is the main trickster in the core pantheon, while Tymora and Beshaba fill the role in Forgotten Realms.I interpret Garl Glittergold as a trickster god as well. Wyvern |
| Treymordin03-18-07, 09:49 AM | Oh yes he is.:P :D |
| Th_Ar_Al03-18-07, 12:04 PM | my choices 1 - Fire and blacksmithing 2 - Earth and fertility 3 - Wind and Comunication 4 - Water and sea travel 5 - Sun and ligth 6 - Nigth and darkness 7 - Life, healling, possible nature and moon 8 - Order and Fate 9 - Chaos and freedom 10 - Magic and Knowledge 11 - Good and hornor 12 - Evil and Treachery |
| Spelldancer03-19-07, 06:14 PM | Well my take might be different than others 1) Earth/the Dead/Protector/Farmer - More of a benevolent figure than fearsome, LN. 2) Water/Seas/Fertility/Healing/Love - Leaning more to NG 3) Destruction/Fire/Metal Working - A selfish deity who grants blessings as long as he/she gets something out of it. NE 4) Air/Weather/Travel/Chaos/Luck - Your free spirit - CN 5) Forests, Nature, Flora/Fauna - Druidic - TN 6) Sun/Valor/Justice - Your golden boy/girl scout LG 7) Magic/Moon/Night/ - A cloaked figure 8) Tyranny/Conquest/Slavery/Battle/Torture - Your main evil deity LE 9) Deceit/Trickery/Secrets/Knowledge/Death/Assassins/Murder - NE 10) Poison/Rage/Fear/Greed 11) War/Battle/Destruction (yea it's on here twice) - CE 12) Commerce/Trade/Invention - TN |
| Mirron03-19-07, 08:39 PM | Hmm, I would look to groups of twelve, for inspiration. A good example is Greek Mythology, with the main 12 gods, although their is a thirteenth god. But, alignment-wise, I would reccomend some sort of balance, with opposing allignment gods also having somewhat opposing powers, with four true neutral gods opposing eachother in some manner or another. Later I shall attempt to make some, but not yet. |
| Angel Black03-19-07, 10:34 PM | By job: -Good Holy Warrior (Paladins and Fighters) Fountain (The Source of a mystical defensive power for Spirit Shamans and some Dragon Shamans) Medicine (Healers ) - Neutral? Whispering (sneaky activities as rogues,Beguilers and some Bards,) Inspiration(Arts,Love and Crafts for Bards and Artisans) Nature (Druids & Barbarians) Knowledge (Wizards ) - Evil Sickness (Death is the ultimate sickness) Hermit (another way to say Old Evilness, or Devil) Ender (He wants the destruction of all the things) - True Neutrals: the Judge Dredd the Destiny's Child :D |
| Treymordin03-19-07, 11:42 PM | What classes are you going to allow in the setting? |
| Mirron03-19-07, 11:52 PM | I assume he would allow the Core classes. Any plans for Psionics? If so, perhaps combined with the Magic god (preferably not), or maybe the Moon deity, Water Deity (Both choices that fit Psionics), or perhaps unique. |
| Greyman03-20-07, 04:33 AM | How a basic pantheon would be? I mean, there is portfolios that are just necessary: life, good, evil, the elements, etc. So I was thinking in trying to create a "generic pantheon" and I am here to ask your help. If you had to do a pantheon of only 12 "basic" gods, what would they be? what would be they portforlios, power and themes?Deities and Demigods suggests that you create at least three deities for each group of character classes, with alignments spread so that every square on the alignment grid is within one step of each. Thuswise each character has at least one deity to which his class and alignment can. If you choose four class groupings (say, martial, roguish, arcane, and natural) you can have a pantheon of 12 deities. There will, by necessity be some doubling of alignments as the are only nine. Try to ensure any deities who share an alignment have distinct personalities, and credes. For example, you might have: Martial gods of Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Good, and Lawful Evil alignments; Roguish deities of Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Evil, and Chaotic Good alignments; Arcane gods of Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral alignments; Nature gods of Neutral Good, Neutral Evil, and True Neutral alignments.LG ( Martial ) NG ( Nature ) CG ( Roguish ) LN (Arcane, Roguish) TN (Arcane, Nature) CN (Arcane, Martial) LE ( Martial ) NE ( Nature ) CE ( Roguish )Once you have such a distribution (this is not the only one possible) you can choose credes, domains, favoured weapons, prortfolios, and such. For instance, your martial gods might be:A Lawful Good god of Justice and Defense, with domains of Law, Good, Protection, and War A Lawful Evil god of Tyrany and Ambitious War, with domains of Destruction, Evil, Law, and War and a Chaotic Neutral god of Conflict and Competition; with domains of Strength, Travel, and War |
| Da Black Cat03-20-07, 01:13 PM | Sun - Strength, Sun - LG Moon - Chaos, Protection - CG Love - Good, Healing - NG War - Destruction, Fire, War - CE Sea - Law, Water - LN Sky - Air, Travel - TN Earth - Earth, Plant - NG Death - Death, Evil - NE Magic - Knowledge, Magic - LE Luck - Luck - TN Snake - Animal, Trickery - CN |
| Prak, the Mad03-25-07, 03:05 PM | the problem with 12, is that you may not have enough for both the alignments and the races, which should be the main deal. you need 9 for alignments, and then at least 5 for races, campaign depending. each race has it's usual alignment, so the racial gods can also be made exemplars of alignment. lets see.... my pantheon would be... God of Dwarves and the Forge(LN) --domains: Strength, Law, Earth and Fire God of Elves and Nature(CN) --domains: Animal, Plant, Chaos God of Halflings and Fate(NG) --domains: Protection, Good, and Luck God of Gnomes(CG) --domains: Magic, Chaos, and Good God of Orcs(CE) --domains: War, Strength, Chaos and Evil God of Goblins(NE) --domains: Trickery, Destruction and Evil God of Kobolds(LE) --domains: Earth, Trickery, Law and Evil God of Humans(N) --domains: Knowledge, the Sun and Travel God of Half-Breeds(CN) --domains: Water, Protection and Chaos God of Celestials(LG) --domains: Air, Law and Good God of Life(LN) --domains: Death, Healing and Law God of The Wild(N) --domains: Animal, Plant, Luck, Strength and the Elements. |
| Yakman03-26-07, 12:23 PM | 12 gods is easy: Use the 12 Olympians--all the work is done for you! Zeus: LG -- the Father, the State, Lightning, Power Hera: NG -- the mother, the family Aphrodite: CG -- Love, Beauty Apollo: NG -- Youth, the Sun, Heroism Hephaestus: LN(G) -- Work, smiths, industry Artemis: CN(E) -- beasts, moon, wilderness Dionysus: CN -- partying, debauchery, lewdness Demeter: N -- agriculture, life, earth mother Poseidon: CE -- storms, oceans, rage Ares: NE -- War, destruction Athena: LG -- Law, Reason, Science Mercury: C -- magic, trickery, etc. And outside the system you can have Hades (LE) god of the dead This naturally sets up conflicts: Zeus v. Poseidon: Brother gods, one who is King the other who feels cheated Athena v. Ares: Brother and sister, one who brings order and reason, the other who sows fear and chaos hera v. demeter: one who is the queen of the gods and of men, and the other who is the primeaval earth mother, itching to upset civilization Apollo v. Artemis: Sun v. Moon, Hero v. Monster Hephastus v. Mercury: Law and production vs. chaos and magic Aphrodite v. Dionysus: The Goddess of Love and Beauty against the God of corruption, decadence and hedonism |
| TimelordSimone03-27-07, 03:36 PM | 12 gods is easy: Mercury: C -- magic, trickery, etc. Hermes. Mercury is roman. Anyway... Because I had to try: Rat: NE death/disease Ox: N earth/plants Tiger: LG honour/virtue Rabbit: CG freedom/wilderness Dragon: NG magic/sky Snake: LE secrets/darkness Horse: N travel Sheep: NG healing/sun Monkey: CN jokes/theft Rooster: N magic Dog: LN loyalty/hard work Boar: CE destruction It's a bit rough, but I thought I'd do it since no-one else had. I shall probably do another one later... |
| Wyvern7603-28-07, 05:28 PM | Nice. I was born in the Year of the Dragon; that's why I picked Wyvern as my handle (that and the fact that I couldn't decide between gryphon and griffon). Wyvern |
| TimelordSimone03-29-07, 07:24 PM | I'm suprised no-one did that before me to be honest. I mean, it was mentioned. But no-one did it. I'm totally gonna make a western zodiac pantheon as well. Watch this space! |
| JulesCARV03-29-07, 10:12 PM | If you want a minimalistic "pantheon"... just reduce it to one god. The Deity: Portfolio: Everything Domains: All Alignment: Neutral, but accepts clerics of all alignments, even CE, CG, LE, and LG clerics. Favored Weapon: No favored weapon per se, but if you have the war domain, it can be martial (but not exotic!). Anyway... it all depends on what feel you're going for with the pantheon, I guess. For example, you can make up a pantheon based on a nonsensical balderdash compilation of wicca and pop Jungian psychology!: The Maiden The Mother The Crone The King The Warrior The Magician The Lover And then you could make up "shadow" versions of that stuff or whatever it is that Jungians do. |
| Devil Gnasher03-30-07, 02:39 PM | 12 gods is easy: Use the 12 Olympians--all the work is done for you! This part I definitely agree with you on. Zeus: LG -- the Father, the State, Lightning, Power Lawful Good!? Hah! Zeus is an obnoxious, amoral, philanderer and self-absorbed lecher. Chaotic Neutral. Hera: NG -- the mother, the family She's wrathful, cruel and domineering. She became the goddess of marriage simply so she could torments her brother's/husband's (Zeus) girlfriends and illegitimate children. Lawful Neutral with tendencies towards Evil. Aphrodite: CG -- Love, Beauty Replace Love with raw Sexual Attraction and Libido. She's the proverbial happy hooker, she'd probably become a call girl just for fun. While she was married to Hephaestus she also bore a son named Eros (Love) with Ares, the god of war. Aphrodite is shallow shortsighted. Chaotic Neutral. Apollo: NG -- Youth, the Sun, Heroism So, you would consider a rapist and supporter of state-sponsored infanticide, Helot murder and general totalitarianism Neutral Good? I'd say he's Lawful Evil. Vile Lawful Evil. Just because he's a Sun god doesn't mean he can't be Evil. Hephaestus: LN(G) -- Work, smiths, industry Good choice Yakman. Good choice. Artemis: CN(E) -- beasts, moon, wilderness Try Neutral Good with tendencies toward Chaos. She only took live child sacrifice, and she trained these girls to be a lethal version of the girl scouts. Dionysus: CN -- partying, debauchery, lewdness Don't forget dolphins. He's their master. Demeter: N -- agriculture, life, earth mother Okay, but she's not Mother Earth in Greek Mythology. She's one of Mother Earth's grand daughters.:D Poseidon: CE -- storms, oceans, rage Another good choice. You may go. Ares: NE -- War, destruction Excellent choice this time. Athena: LG -- Law, Reason, Science Add in "Martial Skill" and "Crafts". Mercury: C -- magic, trickery, etc. Change to Hermes: CG -- magic, trickery, knowledge, lawyers, politicians. And outside the system you can have Hades (LE) god of the dead. Actually, Hades would be Lawful Neutral. He's heartless but not particularly cruel. Think of a Lawful divine version of House. He's also suing Asmodeus for copyright infringement over the use of the word Erynes. |
| wrecan03-30-07, 06:25 PM | I think to do only 12 you're going to be shorting some of the Outer Planes and leaving them deityless. But you need a god for each of the nine alignments. That leaves three miscellaneous gods. I agree with using the Greek Gods as a framework, but changing them to fit the alignments. I'll use the ROman one, though, just to be different. Jupiter -- TN monarch of the gods, storms and the sky Juno -- TN, queen of the gods, the home and vengeance Diana, CG -- goddess of the hunt Minerva, LG -- goddess of wisdom and righteousness Mercury, CN -- god of thieves, merchants and travellers Neptune -- CE, god of sea and storms Venus -- NG, goddess of love and romance Pluto, NE -- god of the underworld. Vulcan, LN -- god of smiths, crafter of items Mars, LE -- god of war Saturn, TN -- god of agriculture Janus, TN -- god of borders Jupiter and Juno should have no known plane of origin. Perhaps they share the elemental planes. Janus should reside in the Astral plane, which is the border between all the planes. |
| Wyvern7603-31-07, 05:31 PM | The Maiden The Mother The Crone The King The Warrior The Magician The LoverHmmm... that gives me an idea: I wonder what a pantheon based on the Tarot would be like? There are 22 major arcana, and coincidentally there are also 22 core domains. I don't know much about the symbolism, but the following stand out as obvious correspondences: The Magician - Magic The Chariot - Travel Strength - Strength Wheel of Fortune - Luck Death - Death The Devil - Evil The Sun - Sun Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could help fill in the rest? Wyvern |
| Wyvern7604-01-07, 01:02 AM | Devil Gnasher: There was a discussion of this in another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-675606) some time back. If you'll look at my post about halfway down the page, you'll see that my analysis of the Greek gods' alignment is pretty close to yours, with the exception of Apollo: So, you would consider a rapist and supporter of state-sponsored infanticide, Helot murder and general totalitarianism Neutral Good?Are you talking about Sparta? I wasn't aware that Apollo was a patron of Sparta. Also, why do you think Hephaestus was LN? He doesn't seem to me to have any noticeable leanings in any direction, which is why I pegged him as just N. Wyvern |
| Prak, the Mad04-01-07, 01:12 PM | most of the greek gods had serious character flaws, and actually I believe Sparta's patron was Ares, not Apollo. |
| krichaiushii04-01-07, 01:42 PM | Back to the original post... Perhaps your basic deities all have a neutral component to their alignments, and allow 'sects' based on the leanings of the neutral component clerics. For example, a LN god of War, Destruction, Law, Strength, Travel might have: LG crusaders who constantly war against Chaos, though are apt to use nonmilitary means (Diplomacy, Economic) as often as direct conflict. LE tyrannical conquerors who destroy Chaos in all its forms, often using superstitious beliefs (like ALL elves are chaotic) and propaganda to further the conflict. May have all sorts of interesting allies. LN defenders who try to uphold the status quo and slowly build up for choice strikes against known Chaotic beings; killing the leaders and subjugating the captives - perhaps putting them in reeducation camps. All three types worship the same god, but do so in different manners. Sometimes, the three types may work together, other times, they may be at odds with each other. |
| Dracomortis04-01-07, 07:01 PM | If I had to pick only twelve, I'd do it something like this: Deity of Air Deity of Battle Deity of Chaos Deity of Earth Deity of Evil Deity of Fire Deity of Good Deity of Law Deity of Magic Deity of Nature Deity of Trickery Deity of Water That pretty much covers every class and alignment, as well as the four traditional elements. A character would then simply worship multiple deities if need; a chaotic good character, for example, would worship both the deity of chaos and the deity of good, rather than having to make a chaotic good deity. |
| Yakman04-04-07, 11:22 AM | most of the greek gods had serious character flaws, and actually I believe Sparta's patron was Ares, not Apollo. Sparta's patrons were the divine twins, Castor and Pollux. |
| Yakman04-04-07, 11:26 AM | criticism of my olympian systemWhile I agree with you that the greek gods did have serious flaws (which is why they were abandoned wholesale when alternatives arose in the later Roman period) I was attempting to construct a balanced pantheon, with 6 "good" gods and 6 "not so good" gods. |
| Amon Hok04-30-07, 04:42 AM | "Deities and Demigods suggests that you create at least three deities for each group of character classes, with alignments spread so that every square on the alignment grid is within one step of each. Thuswise each character has at least one deity to which his class and alignment can" So i am bad at math how many deities would that be if i were to use this grid? |
| Prak, the Mad04-30-07, 12:18 PM | While I agree with you that the greek gods did have serious flaws (which is why they were abandoned wholesale when alternatives arose in the later Roman period) I was attempting to construct a balanced pantheon, with 6 "good" gods and 6 "not so good" gods. *eyebrow raise* I take it you're referring to post-octavian reign? The Aeneid was a big propaganda novel, that basically said "all that stuff we stole from greece? yeah, we really had that all along, Aeneis brought it from Troy when he founded Rome, after the villianous greeks burned troy down..." as to the divine twins... I've not heard of them... |
| Th_Ar_Al04-30-07, 03:49 PM | "Deities and Demigods suggests that you create at least three deities for each group of character classes, with alignments spread so that every square on the alignment grid is within one step of each. Thuswise each character has at least one deity to which his class and alignment can" So i am bad at math how many deities would that be if i were to use this grid? If I not mistake, the character classes are separate as: Melee, Expert and magic uses, who are itself separated in Arcane and Divine, so, it would be 9 or 12 gods? I would a "group" of nature gods, making 12 or 15 god a guess xD as to the divine twins... I've not heard of them... I not sure who they are, but they *are* the Gemini Costelation |
| Wyvern7605-01-07, 05:57 PM | as to the divine twins... I've not heard of them...How can you know about the Aeneid and not know about Castor and Pollux? They were the brothers of Helen of Troy. If I not mistake, the character classes are separate as: Melee, Expert and magic uses, who are itself separated in Arcane and Divine, so, it would be 9 or 12 gods.Wouldn't gods worshiped by divine magic users be kind of redundant? Wyvern |
| Prak, the Mad05-02-07, 02:37 AM | How can you know about the Aeneid and not know about Castor and Pollux? They were the brothers of Helen of Troy. because my mythology of the world class discussed the aeneid and our text is a sugar coated abridged useless thing... |
| ArcTan05-02-07, 04:01 AM | This part I definitely agree with you on. Lawful Good!? Hah! Zeus is an obnoxious, amoral, philanderer and self-absorbed lecher. Chaotic Neutral. While Socrates would certainly love to discuss this issue in depth, for someone who actually *worships* Zeus, Zeus is the *source* of the definition of right and wrong and the moral law that man lives by, even if he himself seems to bend that code. The divide between the religious Zeus and the mythological Zeus is a well-known issue in religion and probably served the cultural purpose of making clear the divide between the office a king holds and the king as a flawed human being. Even so, yes, this was enough for folks like Socrates to doubt the literal existence of the manlike Zeus of mythology. But if you're going to be true to the *religion* of the ancient Greeks instead of just the mythological folktales they told, then Zeus is definitely Good, at least by the standards of the society he rules over. As far as Law and Chaos, I would say the Greeks did recognize those concepts by other names and *did* see them as being in balance -- the gods' behavior in the Trojan War is an example of such balance, between logos and thymos. And so I'd peg Zeus as NG. She's wrathful, cruel and domineering. She became the goddess of marriage simply so she could torments her brother's/husband's (Zeus) girlfriends and illegitimate children. Lawful Neutral with tendencies towards Evil. That's just because you're blindly and solely talking about the Hera of mythology, and then only the Hera of the interesting myths where Zeus has sex with things. Hera was a very important goddess in religion and worshipped as one of the prime protectors and patrons of married women (who made up the majority of women in Greek society). She does serve as a positive force in some stories, including the story of Jason and the Golden Fleece. Honestly -- if you're going to dwell on the crazy jealous version of Hera, fine. But she's definitely Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Evil -- when she takes revenge on Zeus she's doing so because Zeus is blatantly violating the contract between husband and wife. Replace Love with raw Sexual Attraction and Libido. She's the proverbial happy hooker, she'd probably become a call girl just for fun. While she was married to Hephaestus she also bore a son named Eros (Love) with Ares, the god of war. Aphrodite is shallow shortsighted. Chaotic Neutral. I won't really argue with the Chaotic Neutral-ness -- the Greeks feared Aphrodite as much as they worshipped her -- but you're being kind of a jerk to call what she is just plain lust. Aphrodite isn't about having sex just for the sake about having sex -- she's about romantic affiliation and attraction, about the force of desire that makes men do stupid things to win women. She doesn't fit our modern Christian-tinged ideals of love -- she's all eros, no agape -- but she's not just the goddess of sex. The god of just sex is probably Pan. (Eros, her son, So, you would consider a rapist and supporter of state-sponsored infanticide, Helot murder and general totalitarianism Neutral Good? I'd say he's Lawful Evil. Vile Lawful Evil. Just because he's a Sun god doesn't mean he can't be Evil. You're being stupid. If Apollo, despite his failings, doesn't represent Good, then none of the Greek pantheon does, and we can just call them all Evil and go home. If you're not willing to take the Greek pantheon on its own terms -- translating some of its more alien cultural aspects to our times if necessary -- then what's the point? The reason the poets made such a big deal of Apollo's rape of Daphne is that *even Apollo* makes mistakes because he's a human figure wielding godlike power. And if you're going to drag in real-life historical examples and claim that if people who worship a god do bad things in that god's name that makes the god and religion evil, then there's no such thing as a good god or religion (and no such thing, by the way, as a good non-theistic philosophy either). *From the Greek perspective* there was nothing intrinsically Evil about slavery -- there was something distasteful about overdependence on helots to various segments of Greek society, and the Apollonian/Dionysian divide this represented most closely corresponds to what we name Law and Chaos rather than Good and Evil. (And, again, if you're not willing to take the pantheon on its own terms then there's no point in talking about it. *None* of the gods opposed the ancient Greeks' attitudes about women, the disabled, other races, and so on that we'd find reprehensible today.) Good choice Yakman. Good choice. Hephaestos was also an (attempted) rapist, you know. He tried to rape Athena but only managed to get his semen on her leg, resulting in the birth of the king Erichthonius. I don't know why this guy is so popular with modern mythology snarkheads. He's a creepy sleazebag who makes his own girlfriends out of precious metals, who spies on Aphrodite and Ares getting it on because he can't get any himself, and so on. Is the stereotype about geeks true, that they'll sympathize with anyone else who looks and acts like a geek without any moral judgments at all? Try Neutral Good with tendencies toward Chaos. She only took live child sacrifice, and she trained these girls to be a lethal version of the girl scouts. Artemis' wild hunts are pretty much the epitome of Chaos in my mind, actually. And it's not like she's any nicer to people in general than Apollo. Don't forget dolphins. He's their master. You're going to condemn Apollo to Vileness because he encourages "totalitarianism" but let the Bacchae get a free pass of Chaotic Neutral-ness for wandering the countryside raping and murdering passersby? Sounds like you're mixing up Chaos and Good in your mind to me. Okay, but she's not Mother Earth in Greek Mythology. She's one of Mother Earth's grand daughters.:D Mother Earth isn't actually Mother Earth in the sense most modern people mean, though, because Gaea is more like a blind force who's willing to destroy the world at a whim. Not that Demeter is all that much better, what with holding the whole world hostage because of the theft of Persephone. Another good choice. You may go. *shrug* I don't see how Poseidon gets to be Evil if Artemis is Good. Excellent choice this time. One of the few Olympians who probably can be called "Evil" from a perspective that respects the Greeks' take on things. Add in "Martial Skill" and "Crafts". Also add in that she regularly screwed over mortals like Arachne and, say, the Trojans quite a bit and that modern people seem to fetishize how "Lawful Good" she is way too much. Change to Hermes: CG -- magic, trickery, knowledge, lawyers, politicians. Enh. Actually, Hades would be Lawful Neutral. He's heartless but not particularly cruel. Think of a Lawful divine version of House. He's also suing Asmodeus for copyright infringement over the use of the word Erynes. He's... pretty heartless, though. Again, if Apollo sucks because he's "totalitarian", what do you make of a King of the Underworld who has the God of Healing killed because he gets angry at mortals getting too long a lifespan? What do you make of someone who *kidnaps and rapes* a girl and threatens to have the world bathed in winter as a result? You make of him that he's a mythological figure and not to be judged on the same moral grounds as real people are, of course, and that the Greeks' idea of "good" and "evil" was very different from ours and should be respected when discussing their gods -- and that copying over their pantheon to a pantheon with a modern sensibility will involve some kind of cultural translation. |
| ArcTan05-02-07, 04:05 AM | Devil Gnasher: There was a discussion of this in another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-675606) some time back. If you'll look at my post about halfway down the page, you'll see that my analysis of the Greek gods' alignment is pretty close to yours, with the exception of Apollo: Are you talking about Sparta? I wasn't aware that Apollo was a patron of Sparta. Also, why do you think Hephaestus was LN? He doesn't seem to me to have any noticeable leanings in any direction, which is why I pegged him as just N. Wyvern He's not. However, I guess you could say that since Apollo is the source of basically what the Greeks viewed as Law (Apollonian/Dionysian is a much older term for what Michael Moorcock calls Law/Chaos), you can blame him for all the slavery and "Draconian" tyranny and stuff. Doing so would be dumb, in my view, sort of like saying the whole Chinese Pantheon is Evil because the ancient Chinese oppressed women. |
| neilthrun05-03-07, 06:57 PM | I'd go with this Life-healing Death-undeath Law-justice and rules Chaos-entropy anarchy Evil-evil stuff Good-good stuff War-neutral god, war stuff Trade-negotiations, economics, luck Craft-smithing, building etc Earth-hunting, animals, natural places Ocean-water stuff Sky-sky stuff |
| Tenadros05-03-07, 08:44 PM | Here's the ones I use. Feel free to comment and/or use Three Major Life cycle/Fate- (F NG) Life, death, birth, rebirth. The whole fate concept, not absolute predestination in my world just covers the big stuff. Helps that I do reincarnation in my world. Justice- (M LG) absolute morality judges you after death, handles the punishment or rewards dispensed post-mortem/pre-reincarnation Mercy- (M CG) represents the balance between what we are (fate) what we do (justice) and what we desire to be. Represents the individuals freedom of choice and redemption. (Of course in my current timeline he is dead so what are you gonna do.) The Elementals Fire- (M LG) the sun god, very Apollos like, big churches, grand displays. Also covers the metaphors of anima, the passion of a person's inner desires. As such favored by the more natural magic users, sorcerors, etc. Suitor to fate (cyclic nature of the solar cycle.) Earth- (F NG) basic Gaia concept, earth mother, cares for all that lives on or in the earth. Covers the metaphor of the interconnectedness of life, the growth and renewal aspects. Favored by druid's (her priesthood) and Dwarves (they live within her). Air- (M/CG) weather, rain, basic sky god. Married to earth (it was too easy). Very spiritual, mystical contemplative entity. Mildly unpredictable. Metaphor for the higher nature of man, the ethereal being within. The Sentient God's Twin god's of culture- (M/F LG/CG) brother and sister, guy is knowledge, girl is art. showing the tension between the purely academic and the aesthetic sides of life blending to form a cohesive whole. Love- (M NG) not strictly sensual. Love in the classic greek style where the four kinds of love are represented. Friend, erotic, family, agape or highest love, love for the sake of loving. Is the lover of artistic culture. (And of course in my timeline where mercy is dead the god of love is now the "broken" god of war. Long story, think diety level war culminating in a classic Iron Man scenario, except with magic full plate.) The Shadow Gods Chaos/Luck- (F CG) representing man's free will, his ability to overcome fate, his past, and achieve his own will despite statistical probability or what have you. Water- (M CG) straight rip off of Poiseidon, I'll be honest. Not a fan of the land dwellers. Tolerates sailors, etc. extremelly jealous and tempermental. Show's man's darker nature, not his evil nature, but the untamed wildness within us all. Completes the elemental theme, but is put with the shadow god's because of his mysterious nature, and his disdain for Moon- (M CG) counterpart to his brother the sun, also a suitor for fate's attention. Protector, light against the darkness concept. Where the flashy paladins tend towards the sun god, the moon god's agents tend to make Hitler dissapear late at night. Never evil in their techniques, but the guy who protects you without you knowing you ever needed protecting. Chaotic from the moon's changing nature. mysterious and not entirely trusted. Tends to be the patron of a great deal of magic. also representative of anima, but not the passionate life force, but rather the solid endurance that drives us steadily through life. As you might see the god's are all good and tend to be in triads representing both a complete thought and the cycle of good law neut and chaos. The three physical life forces fire(anima)/earth(body)/sky(spirit). Knowledge/Art/Love (the three motivators of a good life.) Fate/Justice/Mercy the eternal aspect/guidelines of life. and the final triad is the shadow gods water/moon/chaos the chaotic side of life, the unknown everchanging nature of existence. The whole is put together in a triangle. (equilateral I think. the one where its all even) fate at the top, and mercy at the bottom left, justice bottom right. the life forces are on the left between mercy and fate, the culture forces are between mercy and justive on the bottom, and the shadow gods are between fate and justice. So we see other triads naturally appear. Sun/moon/fate-the cycle of life. chaos(or free will)/love/justice(or morality)-the balance of absolute law with a freedom of choice and spirit Mercy/knowledge/earth-the forces that guide mercy to effect our lives. So those are all the gods. All good. there are 4 evil gods but defeated and in hiding (hard to have a god's war with all good gods.) Also there are diety level beings. Demon lords, retired gnome illusionist archmages and such. But they are not actuall gods, and do not have portfolios, and very few have worshippers, usually just the eveil ones. And if we are putting god's on power levels are way down the food chain from the "true" gods. I don't actually make up "divine stats" for my gods. By my roleplaying logic, anything powerful enough to be able to illicit worship from people like say Elminster (or the equivilant) should be so far above the comprehension of stats so that saying he has +600 to hit, just really does not describe the situation. Basically if he wants you to be hit, you are hit. Even their avatars are like this. basically if the god of the sun taken physical form wants to hit you with his spear, you get hit with his spear. You also get hit for however many points of damage he wants you to be hit with. Now of course rationally when you get into divine abilities they probably do have stats, levels, etc. but to keep the roleplaying flavor going, when they interact with anything mortal, thats the effect. If the god wants it to happen, it does. If he/she doesn't than it doesn't happen. Plenty there to call derivative. But then I never claimed to be Tolkien. (for the true fans there's a play on words there, I'll let you work it out.) |
| Volafor05-03-07, 10:07 PM | Hmmm... that gives me an idea: I wonder what a pantheon based on the Tarot would be like? There are 22 major arcana, and coincidentally there are also 22 core domains. I don't know much about the symbolism, but the following stand out as obvious correspondences: The Magician - Magic The Chariot - Travel Strength - Strength Wheel of Fortune - Luck Death - Death The Devil - Evil The Sun - Sun Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could help fill in the rest? Wyvern The twenty-two Major Arcana of the Tarot are as follows, in more or less correct order, if memory serves. Definitions differ from one interpreter to another, and have changed over time in some cases, so mine aren't complete: 0 - The Fool: represents innocence, inexperience, free will, opportunity, naivety, and ignorance. I - The Magician: represents alchemy, will, will power, magic, masculinity, manipulation, control, application of learned knowledge. II - The High Priestess: represents intuition, instinct, hidden knowledge, and wisdom. III - The Empress: represents maternity, nurturing, protection, compassion, security, a new idea, a brain child, a plan, and sometimes action. IV - The Emperor: represents power, ambition, effect, development, success, abuse of power, and sometimes corruption. V - The Hierophant: represents spiritual power, politics, the establishment, public opinion, authority, conformity VI - The Lovers: represents couples, strong bonds, mutual commitment, platonic love, teamwork. VII - The Chariot: represents progress, momentum, self-control, self-motivation, and sometimes conventionality. VIII - Justice: represents impartiality, arbitration, the spirit of the law, settlement of dispute IX - The Hermit: represents contemplation, planning, strategy, independence, application of careful thought, isolation, withdrawal. X - The Wheel of Fortune: represents fortune, success, or luck, the cyclic nature of life. XI - Strength: represents emotional, spiritual, or mental strength, and faith (One important note is that in some decks, Justice and Strength are found in reversed positions.) XII - The Hanged Man: represents self-sacrifice, an all-encompassing cause for which one will give anything, sometimes the line between life and death. XIII - Death: represents change, loss, new gain, rebirth, moving away from stagnation. XIV - Temperance: represents moderation, facilitation, harmony, balance, and delayed gratification. XV - The Devil: represents weakness, authoritarianism, willful ignorance, excess. XVI - The Tower: represents upheaval, chaos, discord, loss, destruction, inevitability. Unlike Death, the Tower does not necessarily promise rebirth. XVII - The Star: represents peace, tranquility, opportunities, new horizons. XVIII - The Moon: represents emotional complexity, illusion, psychic disturbances, intuition, dreams. XIX - The Sun: represents optimism, well-being, health, success, joy, happiness. XX - Judgment: represents decisions, self-assessment, endings, and sometimes personal Armageddon. XXI - The World: represents completion, success, attainment of goals, new beginnings, the closing of the karmic circle, a new journey. |
| Wyvern7605-03-07, 11:20 PM | But if you're going to be true to the *religion* of the ancient Greeks instead of just the mythological folktales they told, then Zeus is definitely Good, at least by the standards of the society he rules over.I guess that means Gruumsh is really Good, then. After all, a million orcs can't be wrong. :P What's thymos, btw? But she's definitely Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Evil -- when she takes revenge on Zeus she's doing so because Zeus is blatantly violating the contract between husband and wife.Lawful Evil people can respect contracts too. And I think she took revenge more often on Zeus' mistresses and their bastard children than on Zeus himself, which seems like a pretty Evil thing to do. (Eros, her son,What were you going to say there? I don't know why this guy is so popular with modern mythology snarkheads. He's a creepy sleazebag who makes his own girlfriends out of precious metals, who spies on Aphrodite and Ares getting it on because he can't get any himself, and so on. Is the stereotype about geeks true, that they'll sympathize with anyone else who looks and acts like a geek without any moral judgments at all?Well, Hephaestus was *married* to Aphrodite, so it was completely understandable that he'd spy on her when she was cheating on him. I've never heard any story about him "making his own girlfriends out of precious metals"; please elaborate. I also don't know where you're getting the idea that Hephaestus is popular with "modern mythology snarkheads" (whatever that means). As I said in my post, he's basically a cipher as far as I'm concerned, which is why I labeled him neutral. Not that Demeter is all that much better, what with holding the whole world hostage because of the theft of Persephone.I always understood that myth to say that she was so grieved by the loss of her daughter that nature itself suffered. Irresponsible, perhaps, but hardly malicious. Wyvern |