Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Milesmann0066 05-08-07, 02:27 AM	well, i have a question, see i never played first edition and only alittle AD&D, i mostly played 3.5 so i wanted to know if the gods in the older edditions where any different, like did they have different names and characterisitics, and if they did, what were they?
Seeker95 05-08-07, 08:37 AM	The Greyhawk and Faerun gods were not much different in older editions. The major difference is the addition of domains and portfolios that had actual mechanics impacts. The "portfolios" back then were pretty much flavor-only. Stats, naturally, have adjusted with designer vision and game stat-mechanics. For my own game, most gods have no stats (from a mortal perspective).
Otto the Bugbear 05-08-07, 09:07 AM	Stats, naturally, have adjusted with designer vision and game stat-mechanics. For my own game, most gods have no stats (from a mortal perspective). Good call.
Seldriss 05-08-07, 09:09 AM	In AD&D first edition, the difference between the gods (and their clerics) was mainly in moral and ethics, their alignment. But being a follower of X was not really bringing any variation from Y. Same spells, just different uniform. In AD&D 2nd edition, the gods had portfolios, basically their area of control, and they had spheres, major and minor ones. In a way spheres were what we call now domains. A major sphere was giving the high level spells in it (level 4-7, cleric spells had 7 levels, not 9). A minor sphere was just giving the spells from levels 0-3. And not having a sphere was preventing to get its spells. The clerical powers were not determined by the spheres, but by the god, except a few general ones from the Complete Priest Handbook. In 3rd edition, spheres became domains, although they don't prevent or grant any access, they mainly give an extra list of 9 spells and powers. Another important difference between gods in old editions and the current one is that their alignment have often been reviewed. Not really the settings ones (Krynn, Toril, Oerth), but the classic mythology ones (celtic, egyptian, olympian, asgardian, etc).
Shemeska the Marauder 05-08-07, 10:38 AM	1e gods had stats just like normal monsters, just bigger numbers. 2nd edition didn't provide statblocks for gods, only for their avatars. Deities and similar beings such as archfiends weren't considered things to directly fight like big monsters, which was a radical change from 1e. 3e initially took a page from 1e and gave them stats, but since that initial period they've stepped back from this and not done the same in subsequent books, and have also more recently gone back to providing avatar/aspect stats for archfiends rather than stats for any putative true forms. In some respects the shift between early and more recent 3e handling of these things reflects a combination of what designers were involved, and perception of what was deemed useful or not by players and DMs (apparently pages of god stats didn't fly).
Upper_Krust 05-08-07, 04:59 PM	Hey there! :) Good call. Or 'spoilsport', depending on your perspective. :P
Otto the Bugbear 05-09-07, 12:50 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport?
Deper 05-09-07, 01:49 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Gets in the way of "godkillin'". Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual aside. I don't like "God Killlin'" myself, by others tastes vary.
Upper_Krust 05-09-07, 03:54 PM	Hey there Otto! :) Why is that being a spoilsport? Why is not having stats for gods a "Good call"? :P
Lord_Svengali 05-09-07, 04:10 PM	Why is not having stats for gods a "Good call"? I remember a conversation back in the mid-80's when a couple of players were boasting about how their characters had killed Thor, Ares, Kali, and several others -- including Cthulhu -- over the course of a couple of adventures. One PC -- an assassin -- had even managed to sneak up behind Marduk and successfully backstabbed/assassinated him. Apparently the DM was using the Deities & Demigods book as a Monster Manual.
Otto the Bugbear 05-09-07, 10:12 PM	Here's what it boils down to. Actually, rather than trying to say it myself... from the Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659653) The Hands of the Divine: In D&D the gods are, compared to the wet radish that is your character, unlimited in power. There is no amount of whupass that you could put together that would allow you to triumph over Vecna – he can cast any (or every) spell as a free action. He can cast "Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian with no Save", a spell which heretofore had not even been researched by anyone – as a free action. And he knows many days in advance when he is going to be in danger and who he's going to be in danger from, so that's really not a battle you're going to win. Nevertheless, when adventurers come across a temple to Vecna, they kick everything over, they smash the idol and they steal its ruby eye. And they get away with it. And that's because when you kick over temple to Vecna, you aren't going against Vecna in any direct sense. Vecna lives on a distant outer plane and has full control over anything that happens in his personal dominion. Anywhere else, and he's essentially playing a game of Populous. If there isn't a knight or prophet of Vecna around, Vecna really can't do much until the "end-game" scenario in which he starts throwing volcanoes around. And as soon as that starts happening, the best bet is really to try to hop on the first portal out of whatever universe you happen to be in because it's going Armageddon pretty soon. Vecna might encourage some monsters to go look you up, or lower some land in your way, but you're an adventurer – so that's pretty much what you expected out of life anyway. Also, gods aren't just some powerful dude that you can just go spit in his oatmeal. Gods are the physical manifestation of ideals and beliefs. The entire reason there's even a god of War or Magic or Cheetos, is that enough people believe that the god exists. How do you kill a being whose very existence is guaranteed to continue as long as those people keep believing? Sure, you can kill all those people, but then you're not really killing the god directly. Plus, imagine how hard it is to kill a belief.
Lina_Inverse 05-09-07, 11:01 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Fantasy is filled with heroes slaying gods, D&D is fantasy. Gods should be fair game. It's a good conclusion to a campaign among other things. All stating gods are statless does is limit you and (more importantly) your players.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:08 AM	Hi there Lord_Svengali! :) I remember a conversation back in the mid-80's when a couple of players were boasting about how their characters had killed Thor, Ares, Kali, and several others -- including Cthulhu -- over the course of a couple of adventures. One PC -- an assassin -- had even managed to sneak up behind Marduk and successfully backstabbed/assassinated him. Apparently the DM was using the Deities & Demigods book as a Monster Manual. Okay, but were those players having fun? A lot of people tend to quote the 'gods are not monsters line' from the original Deities & Demigods. But I think in quoting it they miss the subtext. Gods should not be treated as monsters (which in itself implies a sort of mindless, throwaway nature), but they should be treated as (intelligent) NPCs. However, NPCs still invariably die at the hands of the PCs. So there is no reason why the gods should not have stats. A second point is that D&D blurred the lines between gods & monsters by actually including deities in the monster manuals. Namely the Archdevils, Demon Princes, Primus, Cat Lord etc. To return to your above example, I think it was a case of leaning too far towards the throwaway aspect of using the gods akin to random monsters than using them as intelligent and powerful NPCs.
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 07:11 AM	And giving them stats encourages them to think that they should/could actually succeed. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Not falls over dead. Vanishes. No save, no SR, no immunities, nothing. Remember, this is what happens: Drogar, the dwarf barbarian thinks 'My friends and I are going to go kill Vecna' Vecna learns this weeks before Drogar even thinks about it. Vecna crafts a spell, or casts the spell as it already exists: Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian Universal Level: Vecna 1 Components: None Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Unlimited Target: Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Effects: Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian dies. This is not a death effect, but nonetheless, Drogar the Dwarf Barbarian cannot be raised or resurrected by any means except Vecna. And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." But hey, if that's what any of you would like to have in your games, the D&D rules can accommodate that as well. :)
Witch 05-10-07, 07:15 AM	And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? Godslaying has plenty origin in myth, without undoing anything of the killed god's divine status. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Hardly. Gods are powerful, not allpowerful. Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." "ALL POWERFUL" has never been a definition used for D&D gods. Nor for mythological gods. Only monotheistic gods have it.
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 07:47 AM	Hardly. Gods are powerful, not allpowerful. Yeah, look at Greek mythology; mortals were constantly getting the better of the gods. Orpheus’ (sp?) skill as a musician was equal to the gods etc. …Don't even get me started on Finnish mythology.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 08:07 AM	Hey Otto! :) Here's what it boils down to. Actually, rather than trying to say it myself... Fire away... from the Dungeonomicon The Hands of the Divine: In D&D the gods are, compared to the wet radish that is your character, unlimited in power. Falsehood. All power is relative. Eventually an epic character will overtake any immortal in terms of power. There is no amount of whupass that you could put together that would allow you to triumph over Vecna Wrong again. Even if we ignore my above comment that all power is relative, the author is forgetting that occasionally characters can themselves become immortals. How do we know that - BECAUSE THATS HOW VECNA BECAME A GOD. :rolleyes: – he can cast any (or every) spell as a free action. Incorrect. Go read Deities & Demigods. He can cast "Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian with no Save", a spell which heretofore had not even been researched by anyone – as a free action. Idiotic. In D&D you should ask the question "what can the gods do for us, not what we can do for the gods". Gods that are simply above and beyond anything helps no one. Divinity should (and for the most part is) set up in a way that gradually increases power. Not a switch whereby everything goes from black to white. Its not mortal one minute, god the next. The borders between the two are blurred...you have Chosen of, Saints, Quasi-deities, Demi-deities, Lesser Deities and so forth. And he knows many days in advance when he is going to be in danger and who he's going to be in danger from, so that's really not a battle you're going to win. Bad game design. Nevertheless, when adventurers come across a temple to Vecna, they kick everything over, they smash the idol and they steal its ruby eye. And they get away with it. I actually think Divine Intervention should be dependant upon the power of the aggressors. If the PCs are all 20th-level and just waltz into the temple of Vecna and slaughter the guards and mud-stomp the 9th-level High Priest. Then Vecna might even up the score by sending his Avatar. And that's because when you kick over temple to Vecna, you aren't going against Vecna in any direct sense. This depends on your power. The PCs agenda might be to wipe out the Temples of Vecna. The defenses of the Temple could be well below the power of the PCs. In such cases I would expect Vecna to intervene. For every decision there's a consequence. Vecna lives on a distant outer plane and has full control over anything that happens in his personal dominion. He doesn't have full control over beings who enter his dominion, he doesn't have full control over other gods or artifacts. So he doesn't quite have full control. Anywhere else, and he's essentially playing a game of Populous. If there isn't a knight or prophet of Vecna around, Vecna really can't do much until the "end-game" scenario in which he starts throwing volcanoes around. And as soon as that starts happening, the best bet is really to try to hop on the first portal out of whatever universe you happen to be in because it's going Armageddon pretty soon. Vecna might encourage some monsters to go look you up, or lower some land in your way, but you're an adventurer – so that's pretty much what you expected out of life anyway. The author also seems to have forgotten that there are many gods out there, not just Vecna, and they probably won't tolerate him destroying the universe (which he couldn't do anyway because hes not that powerful). Also, gods aren't just some powerful dude that you can just go spit in his oatmeal. When you say gods do you mean Greater Gods? Overgods? Demigods? Quasi-gods? Lesser Gods? What about Demon Princes? Dukes of Hell? :) Gods are the physical manifestation of ideals and beliefs. Or they could be powerful spirits who embody aspects of reality. The entire reason there's even a god of War or Magic or Cheetos, is that enough people believe that the god exists. Not necessarily. Gods may actually gain their divinity through the absorption of another gods essence (see Highlander) or by drawing power from a location or artifact. Worship is only one method of gaining divinity, not the only one. How do you kill a being whose very existence is guaranteed to continue as long as those people keep believing? Sure, you can kill all those people, but then you're not really killing the god directly. Well you sort of answer your own question there. Plus, imagine how hard it is to kill a belief. I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 08:14 AM	I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P I'm with you, Krusty.
Escef 05-10-07, 08:15 AM	A minor sphere was just giving the spells from levels 0-3. Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-10-07, 10:33 AM	I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P Or trying to sell your pdf ;)
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 10:47 AM	Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all. Though as I recall, the great net spellbook had a series of "cantrip" level spells. However they were different spells that could be cast with the 1st level spell cantrip (the 2nd edition version of prestidigitation).
Seldriss 05-10-07, 10:57 AM	Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all. Actually they were. Orisons existed in D&D 2nd edition.
Escef 05-10-07, 11:03 AM	Actually they were. Orisons existed in D&D 2nd edition. Not in the PHB. Maybe in the Player's Option series.
AllisterH 05-10-07, 11:18 AM	Not in the PHB. Maybe in the Player's Option series. Yep that is where it originated, that book (along with Faiths & Avatars) singlehandly turned the cleric from the "geez, I rather play the thief than get stuck on healing duty" to "look guys, it makes no sense that all 6 of you are specialty priests of six different religions" class. All true words spoken in my campaign btw. There was another difference in 1E though. I distinctly remember that the original FR boxed set mentions that the deity's rank determined what maximum spell level it could give out. Demipower no spells Lesser Power 1-3 Intermediat 4,5 Greater 6 and 7 In 1E as well, the strength of the deity wasn't tied to the strength of its worshippers. That was the backstory used anyway for FR's Time of Troubles. The overgod for the Realms thought the realms deities were not being attentive to their followers/duties so he tied their the strength of their powers to a) how strong a belief there was in their portfolio and b) how much worship was directly given to them.
Bruunwald 05-10-07, 03:16 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Why are you taking it so seriously?
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 06:26 PM	Actually, I'm not taking it seriously. Really, both ideas (or any variations) work just fine. There is no reason that can be proffered that will convince one side or the other to switch their mind. Some people like the idea the a god is just like my character, but X times higher "level". Others not so much. Really, I was merely 1) Agreeing with a certain stance on handling gods in-game. 2) Answering Upper Krust. Apparently something was started (argument? debate?) that I wasn't aware of or wasn't about to participate in. It really boils down to one thing. Upper Krust, Lina, Witch, and everyone else that likes the idea of godslaying in the game, bravo! Awesome! The only thing stopping you is the actual rules for the mechanics of it. I think it's a bad idea and I explained why. Is there really anyplace else this can go?
allenchan 05-10-07, 06:33 PM	Is there really anyplace else this can go? It starts with "F" and ends with "laming war". :D
Freefall 05-10-07, 06:59 PM	Edit: I started writing this before Otto posted his most recent response, so I didn't take that into account. And giving them stats encourages them to think that they should/could actually succeed. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Not falls over dead. Vanishes. No save, no SR, no immunities, nothing. If the god has stats then the players could succeed. The "reality" part you describe only works if the god does not have stats. You have a faulty conclusion because it is based on the premise of omnipotent statless gods rather than the premise of statted gods which you actually typed. This is not a death effect, but nonetheless, Drogar the Dwarf Barbarian cannot be raised or resurrected by any means except Vecna. Is Vecna the only god in your games? Or the most powerful? Because in core D&D he is not, and the idea that he could prevent someone like, say, Correllon Larethian from resurrecting somebody is kind of absurd. Correllon outranks him by several rungs on the divine ladder. And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) Have you ever read any Norse Mythology? The whole Pantheon gets wiped out in a big war. And not even by other gods, just a lot of these "big monsters" that so many D&D players seem to hold in derision. And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? If someone died from a few ant bites, would you say, "well, if a mere ant managed to slay a "human," then he just wasn't much of a "human" was he?" Or would your response be more like, "Holy crap, that's a really dangerous bug. We need to watch out for that thing." Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." Omnipotence has never been part of the definition of godhood except in monotheisms, which are actually relatively rare. Requiring omnipotence of all gods really doesn't make sense in a polytheistic system. Ares was never considered all powerful. How could he be? Zeus is explicitly stronger than him, or any of the other Greek gods. As I mentioned before, Thor, Odin, and all the other Norse gods actually get killed in their own myths. The Babylonian gods had a similar hierarchy to the Greeks, with Marduk at the top, and in Egypt Set killed his brother Osiris and was then defeated and maimed by Horus (while maiming Horus in return). Then you've got some of the Hindu myths, where Indra, the king of the gods, seems to be defeated relatively often by various Raksashas and other demons. So yeah, very, very few mythological gods were ever considered omnipotent. They were usually more powerful than humans, but Elephants are normally much stronger than humans as well. D&D characters don't have those kinds of limitations though. An elephant is nigh invulnerable at level 1 but barely a footnote at level 20. That's just how the D&D system is set up. It scales infinitely in power. When you really consider how powerful a 20th or 30th level character is, that they are essentially "godlike" themselves as far as normal human experience goes, I don't really see why some people insist that the weakest of gods are still infinitely far above 50th or even 100th level characters.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:15 PM	Hi Shemeska mate! :) Or trying to sell your pdf ;) Well did you see me mention it in this thread? :P I'm just passionate about epic/immortal gaming (as you are fully aware - since we have been debating the subject for years). ...oh and since you were nice enough to bring the subject up, the print version (from Mongoose) is out this month. ;)
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:37 PM	Hey Otto dude! :) Actually, I'm not taking it seriously. Really, both ideas (or any variations) work just fine. There is no reason that can be proffered that will convince one side or the other to switch their mind. Some people like the idea the a god is just like my character, but X times higher "level". Others not so much. Really, I was merely 1) Agreeing with a certain stance on handling gods in-game. 2) Answering Upper Krust. Apparently something was started (argument? debate?) that I wasn't aware of or wasn't about to participate in. It really boils down to one thing. Upper Krust, Lina, Witch, and everyone else that likes the idea of godslaying in the game, bravo! Awesome! I agree with you that there is no right or wrong way to treat the subject, I just really enjoy going out of my way to debate with people who go out of their way to talk down the idea of stats for gods. :D The only thing stopping you is the actual rules for the mechanics of it. Modesty prevents me from answering this one. :D I think it's a bad idea and I explained why. You know if you tried it, you might even like it. :)
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 08:34 PM	Hey Otto dude! :) Hey. I agree with you that there is no right or wrong way to treat the subject, I just really enjoy going out of my way to debate with people who go out of their way to talk down the idea of stats for gods. :D Perhaps I could introduce you to another post that went into this. Modesty prevents me from answering this one. :D I'd say don't be modest, but you've already got that link in your sig. :cool: You know if you tried it, you might even like it. :) I did try it, once upon a time, many years ago. That's part of the reason I don't like it.
Lina_Inverse 05-10-07, 10:17 PM	And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) I would count norse mythology as filled with god deaths. All the gods die at ragnarok. And said gods are gaining MORTALS to fight in there armies against the GIANTS, not evil gods giants who go on and kill the gods. Norse mythology doesn't work without god stats. And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? It was. Was being that its not now that its dead. Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." God only means all powerful in the monothestic religions. Which has nothing to do with the D&D conception of gods. D&D has multiple gods, and therefore there not omnipotent just really powerful. There still gods though.
WizO_Cat 05-10-07, 10:42 PM	Moved to the Deities and the Planes board.
Milesmann0066 05-08-07, 02:27 AM	well, i have a question, see i never played first edition and only alittle AD&D, i mostly played 3.5 so i wanted to know if the gods in the older edditions where any different, like did they have different names and characterisitics, and if they did, what were they?
Seeker95 05-08-07, 08:37 AM	The Greyhawk and Faerun gods were not much different in older editions. The major difference is the addition of domains and portfolios that had actual mechanics impacts. The "portfolios" back then were pretty much flavor-only. Stats, naturally, have adjusted with designer vision and game stat-mechanics. For my own game, most gods have no stats (from a mortal perspective).
Otto the Bugbear 05-08-07, 09:07 AM	Stats, naturally, have adjusted with designer vision and game stat-mechanics. For my own game, most gods have no stats (from a mortal perspective). Good call.
Seldriss 05-08-07, 09:09 AM	In AD&D first edition, the difference between the gods (and their clerics) was mainly in moral and ethics, their alignment. But being a follower of X was not really bringing any variation from Y. Same spells, just different uniform. In AD&D 2nd edition, the gods had portfolios, basically their area of control, and they had spheres, major and minor ones. In a way spheres were what we call now domains. A major sphere was giving the high level spells in it (level 4-7, cleric spells had 7 levels, not 9). A minor sphere was just giving the spells from levels 0-3. And not having a sphere was preventing to get its spells. The clerical powers were not determined by the spheres, but by the god, except a few general ones from the Complete Priest Handbook. In 3rd edition, spheres became domains, although they don't prevent or grant any access, they mainly give an extra list of 9 spells and powers. Another important difference between gods in old editions and the current one is that their alignment have often been reviewed. Not really the settings ones (Krynn, Toril, Oerth), but the classic mythology ones (celtic, egyptian, olympian, asgardian, etc).
Shemeska the Marauder 05-08-07, 10:38 AM	1e gods had stats just like normal monsters, just bigger numbers. 2nd edition didn't provide statblocks for gods, only for their avatars. Deities and similar beings such as archfiends weren't considered things to directly fight like big monsters, which was a radical change from 1e. 3e initially took a page from 1e and gave them stats, but since that initial period they've stepped back from this and not done the same in subsequent books, and have also more recently gone back to providing avatar/aspect stats for archfiends rather than stats for any putative true forms. In some respects the shift between early and more recent 3e handling of these things reflects a combination of what designers were involved, and perception of what was deemed useful or not by players and DMs (apparently pages of god stats didn't fly).
Upper_Krust 05-08-07, 04:59 PM	Hey there! :) Good call. Or 'spoilsport', depending on your perspective. :P
Otto the Bugbear 05-09-07, 12:50 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport?
Deper 05-09-07, 01:49 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Gets in the way of "godkillin'". Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual aside. I don't like "God Killlin'" myself, by others tastes vary.
Upper_Krust 05-09-07, 03:54 PM	Hey there Otto! :) Why is that being a spoilsport? Why is not having stats for gods a "Good call"? :P
Lord_Svengali 05-09-07, 04:10 PM	Why is not having stats for gods a "Good call"? I remember a conversation back in the mid-80's when a couple of players were boasting about how their characters had killed Thor, Ares, Kali, and several others -- including Cthulhu -- over the course of a couple of adventures. One PC -- an assassin -- had even managed to sneak up behind Marduk and successfully backstabbed/assassinated him. Apparently the DM was using the Deities & Demigods book as a Monster Manual.
Otto the Bugbear 05-09-07, 10:12 PM	Here's what it boils down to. Actually, rather than trying to say it myself... from the Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659653) The Hands of the Divine: In D&D the gods are, compared to the wet radish that is your character, unlimited in power. There is no amount of whupass that you could put together that would allow you to triumph over Vecna – he can cast any (or every) spell as a free action. He can cast "Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian with no Save", a spell which heretofore had not even been researched by anyone – as a free action. And he knows many days in advance when he is going to be in danger and who he's going to be in danger from, so that's really not a battle you're going to win. Nevertheless, when adventurers come across a temple to Vecna, they kick everything over, they smash the idol and they steal its ruby eye. And they get away with it. And that's because when you kick over temple to Vecna, you aren't going against Vecna in any direct sense. Vecna lives on a distant outer plane and has full control over anything that happens in his personal dominion. Anywhere else, and he's essentially playing a game of Populous. If there isn't a knight or prophet of Vecna around, Vecna really can't do much until the "end-game" scenario in which he starts throwing volcanoes around. And as soon as that starts happening, the best bet is really to try to hop on the first portal out of whatever universe you happen to be in because it's going Armageddon pretty soon. Vecna might encourage some monsters to go look you up, or lower some land in your way, but you're an adventurer – so that's pretty much what you expected out of life anyway. Also, gods aren't just some powerful dude that you can just go spit in his oatmeal. Gods are the physical manifestation of ideals and beliefs. The entire reason there's even a god of War or Magic or Cheetos, is that enough people believe that the god exists. How do you kill a being whose very existence is guaranteed to continue as long as those people keep believing? Sure, you can kill all those people, but then you're not really killing the god directly. Plus, imagine how hard it is to kill a belief.
Lina_Inverse 05-09-07, 11:01 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Fantasy is filled with heroes slaying gods, D&D is fantasy. Gods should be fair game. It's a good conclusion to a campaign among other things. All stating gods are statless does is limit you and (more importantly) your players.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:08 AM	Hi there Lord_Svengali! :) I remember a conversation back in the mid-80's when a couple of players were boasting about how their characters had killed Thor, Ares, Kali, and several others -- including Cthulhu -- over the course of a couple of adventures. One PC -- an assassin -- had even managed to sneak up behind Marduk and successfully backstabbed/assassinated him. Apparently the DM was using the Deities & Demigods book as a Monster Manual. Okay, but were those players having fun? A lot of people tend to quote the 'gods are not monsters line' from the original Deities & Demigods. But I think in quoting it they miss the subtext. Gods should not be treated as monsters (which in itself implies a sort of mindless, throwaway nature), but they should be treated as (intelligent) NPCs. However, NPCs still invariably die at the hands of the PCs. So there is no reason why the gods should not have stats. A second point is that D&D blurred the lines between gods & monsters by actually including deities in the monster manuals. Namely the Archdevils, Demon Princes, Primus, Cat Lord etc. To return to your above example, I think it was a case of leaning too far towards the throwaway aspect of using the gods akin to random monsters than using them as intelligent and powerful NPCs.
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 07:11 AM	And giving them stats encourages them to think that they should/could actually succeed. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Not falls over dead. Vanishes. No save, no SR, no immunities, nothing. Remember, this is what happens: Drogar, the dwarf barbarian thinks 'My friends and I are going to go kill Vecna' Vecna learns this weeks before Drogar even thinks about it. Vecna crafts a spell, or casts the spell as it already exists: Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian Universal Level: Vecna 1 Components: None Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Unlimited Target: Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Effects: Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian dies. This is not a death effect, but nonetheless, Drogar the Dwarf Barbarian cannot be raised or resurrected by any means except Vecna. And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." But hey, if that's what any of you would like to have in your games, the D&D rules can accommodate that as well. :)
Witch 05-10-07, 07:15 AM	And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? Godslaying has plenty origin in myth, without undoing anything of the killed god's divine status. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Hardly. Gods are powerful, not allpowerful. Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." "ALL POWERFUL" has never been a definition used for D&D gods. Nor for mythological gods. Only monotheistic gods have it.
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 07:47 AM	Hardly. Gods are powerful, not allpowerful. Yeah, look at Greek mythology; mortals were constantly getting the better of the gods. Orpheus’ (sp?) skill as a musician was equal to the gods etc. …Don't even get me started on Finnish mythology.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 08:07 AM	Hey Otto! :) Here's what it boils down to. Actually, rather than trying to say it myself... Fire away... from the Dungeonomicon The Hands of the Divine: In D&D the gods are, compared to the wet radish that is your character, unlimited in power. Falsehood. All power is relative. Eventually an epic character will overtake any immortal in terms of power. There is no amount of whupass that you could put together that would allow you to triumph over Vecna Wrong again. Even if we ignore my above comment that all power is relative, the author is forgetting that occasionally characters can themselves become immortals. How do we know that - BECAUSE THATS HOW VECNA BECAME A GOD. :rolleyes: – he can cast any (or every) spell as a free action. Incorrect. Go read Deities & Demigods. He can cast "Kill Drogor the Dwarf Barbarian with no Save", a spell which heretofore had not even been researched by anyone – as a free action. Idiotic. In D&D you should ask the question "what can the gods do for us, not what we can do for the gods". Gods that are simply above and beyond anything helps no one. Divinity should (and for the most part is) set up in a way that gradually increases power. Not a switch whereby everything goes from black to white. Its not mortal one minute, god the next. The borders between the two are blurred...you have Chosen of, Saints, Quasi-deities, Demi-deities, Lesser Deities and so forth. And he knows many days in advance when he is going to be in danger and who he's going to be in danger from, so that's really not a battle you're going to win. Bad game design. Nevertheless, when adventurers come across a temple to Vecna, they kick everything over, they smash the idol and they steal its ruby eye. And they get away with it. I actually think Divine Intervention should be dependant upon the power of the aggressors. If the PCs are all 20th-level and just waltz into the temple of Vecna and slaughter the guards and mud-stomp the 9th-level High Priest. Then Vecna might even up the score by sending his Avatar. And that's because when you kick over temple to Vecna, you aren't going against Vecna in any direct sense. This depends on your power. The PCs agenda might be to wipe out the Temples of Vecna. The defenses of the Temple could be well below the power of the PCs. In such cases I would expect Vecna to intervene. For every decision there's a consequence. Vecna lives on a distant outer plane and has full control over anything that happens in his personal dominion. He doesn't have full control over beings who enter his dominion, he doesn't have full control over other gods or artifacts. So he doesn't quite have full control. Anywhere else, and he's essentially playing a game of Populous. If there isn't a knight or prophet of Vecna around, Vecna really can't do much until the "end-game" scenario in which he starts throwing volcanoes around. And as soon as that starts happening, the best bet is really to try to hop on the first portal out of whatever universe you happen to be in because it's going Armageddon pretty soon. Vecna might encourage some monsters to go look you up, or lower some land in your way, but you're an adventurer – so that's pretty much what you expected out of life anyway. The author also seems to have forgotten that there are many gods out there, not just Vecna, and they probably won't tolerate him destroying the universe (which he couldn't do anyway because hes not that powerful). Also, gods aren't just some powerful dude that you can just go spit in his oatmeal. When you say gods do you mean Greater Gods? Overgods? Demigods? Quasi-gods? Lesser Gods? What about Demon Princes? Dukes of Hell? :) Gods are the physical manifestation of ideals and beliefs. Or they could be powerful spirits who embody aspects of reality. The entire reason there's even a god of War or Magic or Cheetos, is that enough people believe that the god exists. Not necessarily. Gods may actually gain their divinity through the absorption of another gods essence (see Highlander) or by drawing power from a location or artifact. Worship is only one method of gaining divinity, not the only one. How do you kill a being whose very existence is guaranteed to continue as long as those people keep believing? Sure, you can kill all those people, but then you're not really killing the god directly. Well you sort of answer your own question there. Plus, imagine how hard it is to kill a belief. I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P
Steely_Dan 05-10-07, 08:14 AM	I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P I'm with you, Krusty.
Escef 05-10-07, 08:15 AM	A minor sphere was just giving the spells from levels 0-3. Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-10-07, 10:33 AM	I thought I was killing the belief that stats for gods was a bad thing. :P Or trying to sell your pdf ;)
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 10:47 AM	Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all. Though as I recall, the great net spellbook had a series of "cantrip" level spells. However they were different spells that could be cast with the 1st level spell cantrip (the 2nd edition version of prestidigitation).
Seldriss 05-10-07, 10:57 AM	Just a nitpick here, but clerics didn't get 0-level spells in previous editions. In fact, 0-level spells for Magic-Users and Illusionists were introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana, and were not in 2e at all. Actually they were. Orisons existed in D&D 2nd edition.
Escef 05-10-07, 11:03 AM	Actually they were. Orisons existed in D&D 2nd edition. Not in the PHB. Maybe in the Player's Option series.
AllisterH 05-10-07, 11:18 AM	Not in the PHB. Maybe in the Player's Option series. Yep that is where it originated, that book (along with Faiths & Avatars) singlehandly turned the cleric from the "geez, I rather play the thief than get stuck on healing duty" to "look guys, it makes no sense that all 6 of you are specialty priests of six different religions" class. All true words spoken in my campaign btw. There was another difference in 1E though. I distinctly remember that the original FR boxed set mentions that the deity's rank determined what maximum spell level it could give out. Demipower no spells Lesser Power 1-3 Intermediat 4,5 Greater 6 and 7 In 1E as well, the strength of the deity wasn't tied to the strength of its worshippers. That was the backstory used anyway for FR's Time of Troubles. The overgod for the Realms thought the realms deities were not being attentive to their followers/duties so he tied their the strength of their powers to a) how strong a belief there was in their portfolio and b) how much worship was directly given to them.
Bruunwald 05-10-07, 03:16 PM	Why is that being a spoilsport? Why are you taking it so seriously?
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 06:26 PM	Actually, I'm not taking it seriously. Really, both ideas (or any variations) work just fine. There is no reason that can be proffered that will convince one side or the other to switch their mind. Some people like the idea the a god is just like my character, but X times higher "level". Others not so much. Really, I was merely 1) Agreeing with a certain stance on handling gods in-game. 2) Answering Upper Krust. Apparently something was started (argument? debate?) that I wasn't aware of or wasn't about to participate in. It really boils down to one thing. Upper Krust, Lina, Witch, and everyone else that likes the idea of godslaying in the game, bravo! Awesome! The only thing stopping you is the actual rules for the mechanics of it. I think it's a bad idea and I explained why. Is there really anyplace else this can go?
allenchan 05-10-07, 06:33 PM	Is there really anyplace else this can go? It starts with "F" and ends with "laming war". :D
Freefall 05-10-07, 06:59 PM	Edit: I started writing this before Otto posted his most recent response, so I didn't take that into account. And giving them stats encourages them to think that they should/could actually succeed. When in reality, the moment they think it, the character ceases to exist. Not falls over dead. Vanishes. No save, no SR, no immunities, nothing. If the god has stats then the players could succeed. The "reality" part you describe only works if the god does not have stats. You have a faulty conclusion because it is based on the premise of omnipotent statless gods rather than the premise of statted gods which you actually typed. This is not a death effect, but nonetheless, Drogar the Dwarf Barbarian cannot be raised or resurrected by any means except Vecna. Is Vecna the only god in your games? Or the most powerful? Because in core D&D he is not, and the idea that he could prevent someone like, say, Correllon Larethian from resurrecting somebody is kind of absurd. Correllon outranks him by several rungs on the divine ladder. And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) Have you ever read any Norse Mythology? The whole Pantheon gets wiped out in a big war. And not even by other gods, just a lot of these "big monsters" that so many D&D players seem to hold in derision. And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? If someone died from a few ant bites, would you say, "well, if a mere ant managed to slay a "human," then he just wasn't much of a "human" was he?" Or would your response be more like, "Holy crap, that's a really dangerous bug. We need to watch out for that thing." Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." Omnipotence has never been part of the definition of godhood except in monotheisms, which are actually relatively rare. Requiring omnipotence of all gods really doesn't make sense in a polytheistic system. Ares was never considered all powerful. How could he be? Zeus is explicitly stronger than him, or any of the other Greek gods. As I mentioned before, Thor, Odin, and all the other Norse gods actually get killed in their own myths. The Babylonian gods had a similar hierarchy to the Greeks, with Marduk at the top, and in Egypt Set killed his brother Osiris and was then defeated and maimed by Horus (while maiming Horus in return). Then you've got some of the Hindu myths, where Indra, the king of the gods, seems to be defeated relatively often by various Raksashas and other demons. So yeah, very, very few mythological gods were ever considered omnipotent. They were usually more powerful than humans, but Elephants are normally much stronger than humans as well. D&D characters don't have those kinds of limitations though. An elephant is nigh invulnerable at level 1 but barely a footnote at level 20. That's just how the D&D system is set up. It scales infinitely in power. When you really consider how powerful a 20th or 30th level character is, that they are essentially "godlike" themselves as far as normal human experience goes, I don't really see why some people insist that the weakest of gods are still infinitely far above 50th or even 100th level characters.
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:15 PM	Hi Shemeska mate! :) Or trying to sell your pdf ;) Well did you see me mention it in this thread? :P I'm just passionate about epic/immortal gaming (as you are fully aware - since we have been debating the subject for years). ...oh and since you were nice enough to bring the subject up, the print version (from Mongoose) is out this month. ;)
Upper_Krust 05-10-07, 07:37 PM	Hey Otto dude! :) Actually, I'm not taking it seriously. Really, both ideas (or any variations) work just fine. There is no reason that can be proffered that will convince one side or the other to switch their mind. Some people like the idea the a god is just like my character, but X times higher "level". Others not so much. Really, I was merely 1) Agreeing with a certain stance on handling gods in-game. 2) Answering Upper Krust. Apparently something was started (argument? debate?) that I wasn't aware of or wasn't about to participate in. It really boils down to one thing. Upper Krust, Lina, Witch, and everyone else that likes the idea of godslaying in the game, bravo! Awesome! I agree with you that there is no right or wrong way to treat the subject, I just really enjoy going out of my way to debate with people who go out of their way to talk down the idea of stats for gods. :D The only thing stopping you is the actual rules for the mechanics of it. Modesty prevents me from answering this one. :D I think it's a bad idea and I explained why. You know if you tried it, you might even like it. :)
Otto the Bugbear 05-10-07, 08:34 PM	Hey Otto dude! :) Hey. I agree with you that there is no right or wrong way to treat the subject, I just really enjoy going out of my way to debate with people who go out of their way to talk down the idea of stats for gods. :D Perhaps I could introduce you to another post that went into this. Modesty prevents me from answering this one. :D I'd say don't be modest, but you've already got that link in your sig. :cool: You know if you tried it, you might even like it. :) I did try it, once upon a time, many years ago. That's part of the reason I don't like it.
Lina_Inverse 05-10-07, 10:17 PM	And of the fantasy I've read, it's not "filled", it's a pretty rare occurance, except in D&D pulp novels. (Remember, 'pretty rare' means I have seen it, but certainly not "filled".) I would count norse mythology as filled with god deaths. All the gods die at ragnarok. And said gods are gaining MORTALS to fight in there armies against the GIANTS, not evil gods giants who go on and kill the gods. Norse mythology doesn't work without god stats. And really, if a character is slaying a "god", that wasn't much of a "god" then, was it? It was. Was being that its not now that its dead. Unless the definition of "god" has become "some dude that was once way more powerful than me, but now I can steal his shiny pants, spit on his face, and roll the corpse" instead of "ALL POWERFUL." God only means all powerful in the monothestic religions. Which has nothing to do with the D&D conception of gods. D&D has multiple gods, and therefore there not omnipotent just really powerful. There still gods though.
WizO_Cat 05-10-07, 10:42 PM	Moved to the Deities and the Planes board.