Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grimrider 11-13-07, 12:24 PM	While browsing the Fiendish Codices (I: Hordes of the Abyss, and II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells), I ran across information on the River Styx that was in conflict. I know that I can, as a DM, just pick the rules I like...or just make up my own rules...but I was curious if there was any errata that clarified this. Hordes of the Abyss agrees with the 3E MotP, saying that contact with Styx water requires a DC 17 Fortitude save, failure resulting in a permanent feeblemind effect and total amnesia, and success resulting in 8 hours of memory loss. Tyrants of the Nine Hells says that contact with Styx water requires a Fortitude save of variable DC (depending on level of immersion), which starts as 25 at the lowest. Failure results in temporary amnesia for 3d6 days, which has no stat or rules effect, but merely wipes the personality from the PC and makes their alignment alterable until they recover their memories. Of the two books, "Hordes" provides much more detail on the Styx, and matches the MotP as well, so I'm more inclined to go with that ruling. Strangely, the rules in "Tyrants" makes the Styx seem much less dangerous. Is there any official ruling on this? And what do/would you do in your games?
Sorcen_Anenooata 11-13-07, 01:50 PM	I'm not sure of the official ruling, usually its by whichever book was published last I believe. You'll have to wait for someone else conformation on this though. Personally in my games, I leave the Styx's effect as a vaguely decribed amnesia. The river's effects also vary as to which plane they are on; with the Abyss having more random memory and other effects then those in Baator. Just recently I've had a low ranked demon general fall in the river from Hades and suffer from amnesia so that he could be run as an adventurer.
Space_Dragon 11-13-07, 03:04 PM	I like the first one better.
pogrom666 11-13-07, 03:58 PM	I just got both books the other day... I'll read them both with more care now. I probably wouldn't have noticed that they were in conflict, knowing how I read things sometimes. I personally would rule that the Fiendish Codex II would be the "right" one, simply because it was published last. However, I like the rules for the Fiendish Codex I better.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-13-07, 06:52 PM	FC:I's interpretation is more in line with the established lore on the topic, and I'd go with it. The entire book was probably the best researched 3.x book, and it's a thing of beauty in most every instance. By contrast, the rules in FC:II make the Styx wimpy, and you don't want a wimpy Styx now do you? *sips a glass of arborean scotch mixed with 1 part Styx water and 1 part blended dretch pineal gland*
awaken_D_M_golem 11-13-07, 07:06 PM	Knowledge (yugoloths) : Only an Arcanaloth would know where, a dretch's pineal gland would be, and taste. Knowledge (yugoloths) : What kind of secret message are you sending? And who/what are you sending it to? Doesn't the Styx 'run' at different rates? It's a trickle in parts of Archeron and Pandemonium. It's a torrent in others. Couldn't the right answer be both ?!
zeratulcraft 11-13-07, 07:29 PM	Yeah, I'd say both, the Styx in hell has its effects, and the Styx in the abyss has its effects. Maybe something about the plane changes its strength.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-13-07, 08:33 PM	Yeah, I'd say both, the Styx in hell has its effects, and the Styx in the abyss has its effects. Maybe something about the plane changes its strength. When you say it like that, it sounds like one plane is stronger than the other, which probably isn't the case. The effects of the Styx probably do change from one place to another. I had the idea of maybe Gehenna's or Baator's part of the Styx making the drinker suffer from Dissociative Fugue Disorder-Just walking away with their memories replaced by a new identity.
ripvanwormer 11-13-07, 08:58 PM	In previous editions, the effects of the River Styx were more potent in Stygia (the fifth layer of Baator) than anywhere else. Making it weaker there than it is in the Abyss would be strange. The advantage to the newer rules is that you can continue to play your character after a spash. The disadvantage is that you lose the storyline in Dead Gods where the drow who knows where the Wand of Orcus is hidden has been immersed in the Styx so Tenebrous had to find a rare flower that's the only cure for its memory loss. The whole drow civil war (called the Priestess Wars in the recent Drow of the Underdark) started over that one splash in the Styx, in a way. Both rules take away the "PCs start the campaign off amnesiac because they were dipped in the Styx before the game started" hook because, I mean, you don't want to start out with Feebleminded PCs. The way I'd do it, the character loses all memories and drops down to 1st level (or whatever level you start the campaign at) unless cured with the white lotus plant that grows only in Set's realm. They're not Feebleminded. However, I'd use the Fiendish Codex II rules in Pandemonium, where the waters are supposed to be weaker. In Stygia (and possibly certain layers of the Abyss, like the Forgotten Land), the waters would be more potent than usual.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 09:26 PM	I prefer the second set of rules, because the first set of rules is basically a way to kill a character on a natural 1 and otherwise to have a kind-of-interesting-but-not-really effect ("What happened today? Oh, really? Okay". End of amnesia storyline). It's very "tippy", in other words -- mild inconvenience on a good roll, total character-destroying disaster on a bad one. The second set of rules makes it so that it's somewhat likely you can survive, but if you don't survive your character still exists -- and in a state where a whole bunch of really interesting things can happen to him. (I.e. it's designed to engineer a "Wait, no, you're on OUR side! You've been brainwashed!" situation.) As a preference I'd come up with a system to make it work like the established system for poison. If you fail your initial save you become an amnesiac with a rewritable personality. After the first 3d6-day period you make a secondary save at a lower DC -- succeed and your original memories come back, fail and you're stuck for another 3d6-day period. If you ever fail the DC by 10 or more, the amnesia is permanent. If you roll a natural 1, you get feebleminded.
Grimrider 11-14-07, 01:28 PM	Thanks for the input, everybody. I really like ArcTan's idea, actually, of having a graduated system of saves that mirror the poison system. But I do think that contact with Styx water should be something that makes PCs-in-the-know feel something akin to mild terror. A mix of role-playing effect and game-stat effect might be best, to make sure that even players with poor RP skills think twice before getting too close to the river's banks. Something like this, perhaps: Contact with Styx Water: DC 17 Fortitude save Partial immersion (arm, leg, etc): DC 20 Fortitude save Total/Near total immersion: DC 23 Fortitude save Primary effect: - Successful save: 3d6 days of amnesia/personality wipe, no secondary save required. - Failed save: 3d6 days of amnesia/personality wipe, drains 1d6 points of Wisdom, roll a secondary save at the same DC -3 at the end of amnesia period. Secondary effect: - Successful save: Memory and personality restored, ability drain remains in place (unless otherwise cured). - Failed save: amnesia is permanent, new personality/alignment is permanent, ability drain remains in place (unless otherwise cured). In the case of permanent amnesia, only the flower from Set's realm or (if this is canon in your campaign) somehow finding and returning the 'sediments of thought' belonging to the victim can undo the damage done. Not even wish, limited wish, or miracle can restore the original memories/personality. Probably needlessly complicated, but I think a system like this allows the Styx to keep its teeth without unfairly breaking PCs who roll poorly. It keeps the plot points of 'Dead Gods' alive, and it allows for DMs to use the 'Styx water/amnesia' plot device to start off games. As for the feeblemind effect, if somebody was drowning in the Styx round after round, or was forced under repeatedly by malicious fiends, they would eventually take Wisdom drain to such low levels that they'd, for all intends and purposes, be utter simpletons.
Deacon Liadon 11-14-07, 04:33 PM	sips a glass of arborean scotch mixed with 1 part Styx water and 1 part blended dretch pineal gland* That's a rather mirthful looking arcanoloth. Those numbers look good Grimrider, but, as Rip suggested, it might be a good idea to weaken the fortitude in some places, and perhaps make it harder in others. That way the players can be really worried since they don't know which parts are the nasty parts.
ArcTan 11-14-07, 11:57 PM	Well, ability drain is worse than feeblemind -- it caps out at 0, not 1, so under those rules someone drowning in the Styx would eventually end up comatose, and (if it's *drain*, not damage) stay comatose until someone cast restoration. Notice that feeblemind is the inverse of Wis drain -- it drains Int and Cha but *not* Wis, so that a feebleminded character can, according to the spell desc, still identify his friends and try to help them in rudimentary ways. They become akin to an animal, in other words, whereas Wis drain makes you akin to a psychopath -- an Int 1 Wis 10 character may be very stupid, but, like an animal, can still identify friend from foe and accomplish basic tasks, while an Int 10 Wis 1 character may be able to speak but will be reduced to raving psychopathy and totally random actions. Which one you think is more appropriate for the Styx is up to you, but the Styx's theme has been amnesia and loss of knowledge, not loss of sanity. People who come out of the Styx are supposed to be dull-witted but stable, not raving madmen.
Grimrider 11-15-07, 04:15 AM	The main reason I wanted to make it WIS instead of INT/CHA was to give it some impact even in terms of game rules, since Wisdom loss hurts everybody equally. Originally I'd thought that INT and CHA loss would only hurt arcane spellcasters, and I wanted something that would cause fear across the board. But on reflection, it actually makes more sense that arcane casters should fear the Styx more than fighters. A fighter with no memory can still swing a sword by the instincts they've developed, but wizards in particular need their memory intact to perform magic. How about amending the above system to 1d6 INT and 1d6 CHA drain instead. I'd still prefer to make it drain, and not damage, because the Styx should be something to fear. And I can easily imagine something as spiritually toxic as the Styx turning a person into a comatose vegetable if they're exposed to it for a long, long time. It would take several consecutive rounds of contact to reduce even an average score to 0.
ArcTan 11-15-07, 06:03 AM	*Several rounds*? Average of 1d6 is 3.5. An average value for any ability score is 10.5 (since the average value of any ability score is the average of 3d6). Therefore, an average person will most likely succumb to a coma from the Styx in three rounds of exposure, or 18 seconds. That's not much time.
Thanael 11-15-07, 07:06 AM	Wasn't the flavor of the Styx only amnesia (memory loss), not intelligence loss? Mechanics for this would be a bit different than int drain or damage. The spell programmed amnesia from Spell Compedium could provide suitable mechanics for that.
Grimrider 11-16-07, 07:16 AM	*Several rounds*? Average of 1d6 is 3.5. An average value for any ability score is 10.5 (since the average value of any ability score is the average of 3d6). Therefore, an average person will most likely succumb to a coma from the Styx in three rounds of exposure, or 18 seconds. That's not much time. Yes, several rounds. Remember that ability drain only happens if the subject fails their save for that round. Depending on the Plane and degree of contact, the difficulty of that save can vary. In addition, the proposed system is designed to create an element of risk for Player Characters, whose ability scores are typically well above 10. If the PCs adventuring near the Styx are of the level they ought to be, casting Restoration shouldn't be a problem for them. I'd be more than happy to slap a caveat onto the above stating that ability drain from the Styx can never go below 1, simply to avoid the comatose problem (which would make it virtually identical to Feeblemind, only requiring a lot more than just one instance of contact to bring about that state). I'm just interested in creating a consequence of Styx contact that penalizes good roleplayers and poor roleplayers equally. I have several players in my current group who, frankly, wouldn't be all too bothered if their memories were erased. Creating some rule-based penalty that required the use of player resources to fix would ensure even they had reason to fear the Styx.