Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 03:26 PM	Inspired by the "Buddha as a deity in D&D" thread. Of course, to have the campaign setting be a true model of old world Christianity, you'd be intertwining a lot of things with old medieval Europe. Things like the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church, etc. could not exist without England and Rome, respectively. I've been wanting to run a campaign in a monotheistic world, which in itself would be relatively simple to do, but I want it to have kind of a "Christian" feel if you know what I mean. I suppose I could start off by not forcing all clerics to just be Christian clerics. That would be a bit too narrow, and almost redundant in such a campaign setting (it would be like calling a core D&D cleric a religious cleric). But to show different "religions" I could just use the sects of Christianity. So you could have a Russian Orthodox cleric, Roman Catholic cleric, cleric of the Church of England, and so on. Perhaps I'd allow a Jewish cleric in the game as well, but to preserve the Christian feel of the setting, make them foreign and an outsider, per se. I suppose to further it a bit more, it wouldn't exactly be monotheism. God would be a deity, but what about other immortals? Would the Virgin Mary be a deity? The Holy Spirit? And what about Satan? Is he a deity? I can imagine Jesus would be a demi-god, or, depending on who you ask, maybe just an avatar of God.
Rickiel 02-17-07, 03:33 PM	And clerics can be of any alignment. As in Eberron, a cleric never, NEVER, has the ability to go out into the planes, point has his deity's house and say "Yep, my boss's place is pretty chic." This way you can have corruption, those who fight the corruption, those who find the corruption and are currently questioning their whole way of life etcetera in there as well! And it also supports the ability to have multiple denominations (possibly each with it's own set of Domains).
Upper_Krust 02-17-07, 03:40 PM	Hi there Ace! :) There already is a Christian Setting, its called Testament by Green Ronin. I don't own it so I can't tell you any more than that. But what I can recall is that its set during the Old Testament.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 03:43 PM	And clerics can be of any alignment. As in Eberron, a cleric never, NEVER, has the ability to go out into the planes, point has his deity's house and say "Yep, my boss's place is pretty chic." This way you can have corruption, those who fight the corruption, those who find the corruption and are currently questioning their whole way of life etcetera in there as well! And it also supports the ability to have multiple denominations (possibly each with it's own set of Domains). I forgot to mention that. For a Christian setting I imagine I'd eliminate alignment altogether. For characters whose powers don't rely on divine assistance (i.e. anyone except a cleric, paladin, druid, and ranger, for core classes at least) it wouldn't matter. And for the clerics, paladins, druids, and rangers, their religion would have a doctrine. If they went against their religion's doctrine, they'd lose their divine powers (temporarily or permanently, possibly remedied by an atonement spell, basically, the normal rules for such things). Alignment would just be a silly thing to add on to it. Plus, it would be ridiculous for me to try and rule what religion is what alignment. I can see it now, me saying, "Okay, Catholicism is LG, Judaism is NG, the Church of England is CG, the Cult of Satan is LE..." Yeah. That would be kind of dumb.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 03:46 PM	Hi there Ace! :) There already is a Christian Setting, its called Testament by Green Ronin. I don't own it so I can't tell you any more than that. But what I can recall is that its set during the Old Testament. I'll have to look into that. Thanks. An Old Testament setting isn't what I'm ultimately looking for, but I'm sure the setting will have some valuable material for me to use.
Silverthumb128 02-17-07, 04:01 PM	An Old Testament setting isn't what I'm ultimately looking for, but I'm sure the setting will have some valuable material for me to use. You'll have some epic confrontations between your Clerics and Paladins of Christ versus the heathen Druids and Bards, if you keep it base 3.5, I can tell you that much. ;)
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 04:05 PM	Hmm.... interesting idea. Presumably you want to keep things in a more European context, but I think you could have a lot of fun with the gnostic sects that existed in North Africa during the early days of Christianity. They were much less concerned with Christ as a savior and more of a spiritual example. Oh, and they thought of him as a wholly divine being, not incarnated as a mere human. Basically they were almost an existential branch of Christiandom that eventually got wiped out by the Church. You might want to have them around anyway, perhaps as the Monks of your setting.
Silverthumb128 02-17-07, 04:11 PM	Hmm.... interesting idea. Presumably you want to keep things in a more European context, but I think you could have a lot of fun with the gnostic sects that existed in North Africa during the early days of Christianity. You could also set your higher ended campaigns towards the conversion of other continents, like Asia, the Americas, etc.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 04:16 PM	You'll have some epic confrontations between your Clerics and Paladins of Christ versus the heathen Druids and Bards, if you keep it base 3.5, I can tell you that much. ;) Indeed. Druidism, or nature worship, or whatever you want to call it, seems to clash with Christian fundamentals. The animosity between, say, a paladin and a druid, could go anywhere. They could be good friends who simply debate religious topics in a friendly manner, or as extreme as wanting to kill each other on sight. As for bards, the flavor of them in a Christian world would be just as arcane minstrels. I can't imagine bards would be very religious.
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 04:22 PM	I think one thing to keep in mind is that, unlike what's commonly thought, Satan is not the opposite of God. God is perfect and has no opposites. Lucifer/Satan is the archenemy of Micheal the Archangel, most powerful of God's host. The way I would do this is have YWHW as an "Overdeity" (does not grant spells, never directly interferes) but you could give him a number of intermediaries. Micheal, the Archangel of Wrath, Gabriel the Messenger, Raphael the Merciful, etc. Some sects (particularly your Catholic sect) could take spells from the Saints, who are generally believed to grant protection and intercession on behalf of God. Other sects might strictly worship the Overdeity alone, and would effectively take their spells from the power of their faith alone.
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 04:23 PM	As for bards, the flavor of them in a Christian world would be just as arcane minstrels. I can't imagine bards would be very religious. Actually, in ancient druidic communities, Bards were priests as well as chroniclers for the community.
Yadot 02-17-07, 04:29 PM	You could have those angels who are named such as Gabriel, Micheal, Raphael, Lucifer as demi-lesser gods. Possibly include the heresies that developed as a piont of tension. The saints probably would be some type of higher mortal such as a Rank 0 quasi-deity. The way I would do this is have YWHW as an "Overdeity" (does not grant spells, never directly interferes) but you could give him a number of intermediaries. Micheal, the Archangel of Wrath, Gabriel the Messenger, Raphael the Merciful, etc. Some sects (particularly your Catholic sect) could take spells from the Saints, who are generally believed to grant protection and intercession on behalf of God. Other sects might strictly worship the Overdeity alone, and would effectively take their spells from the power of their faith alone. Yeah, having G-d as an overdeity is probably the best way to go. But what domains should the angels grant? Maybe St. Micheal the Archangel could grant Protection, War and Strength. I'm not sure about Gabriel or Raphael but Satan would have something along the lines of Death, Corruption, Evil and Pestilence. For the Saints, although they're not actually worshiped, you could offer Domains based on the whole collective and a single domain based on a character's patron/matron saint. EDIT: Gabriel could grant the Herald, Oracle and mabe Healing domains
awaken_D_M_golem 02-17-07, 04:30 PM	heh ... don't get yer-self in too much trouble. easy : Put jesus over in the 'real' world , such that he's never part of the story line. middling : But jesus exists , so does Possession by The Holy Spirit the SRD has the SDA possess mortal , which obviously The Holy Spirit uses. Special : the 3=1 stuff would translate to 60 simultanious uses of the SDA. Hard : according to christian theology , the other gods don't exist , but in D&D they do see line one above. perhaps DispelMagic is available alot ?!
Shedeo 02-17-07, 04:44 PM	Another thing you can do for Catholosism is base the Saints on a Domain, such as the Patron Saint of Travel (whose name escapes me right now) would essentially be the Travel Domain for Clerics.
malykoth 02-17-07, 04:45 PM	I second the idea of getting a copy of Testament. Though, indeed, it is Old Testament based, it has the idea of a "hierarchy of sin" for each of the religions it represents, which help rate a person's "piety" in relation to his or her chosen faith. This would dispense with the alignment system. It also includes a lot of info in early Judaism, which would certainly still exist in your campaign. In addition, it has biblical-based spells, creatures (both angelic and demonic), and rules for things like barter and curses. Unfortunately, it is only in 3.0, but it could be updated without much difficulty.
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 04:50 PM	Another thing you can do for Catholosism is base the Saints on a Domain, such as the Patron Saint of Travel (whose name escapes me right now) would essentially be the Travel Domain for Clerics. This is a great idea. There are too many saints (even if you just stick with the major ones) to give them multiple domains. Therefore treating the use of a certain domain as calling upon a certain Saint makes much better sense.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 05:41 PM	This is a great idea. There are too many saints (even if you just stick with the major ones) to give them multiple domains. Therefore treating the use of a certain domain as calling upon a certain Saint makes much better sense. I love the idea too. I also love that you're all being very helpful and filling my mind with ideas. When I originally posted the thread I half expected a very bitter person to scorn me for even having the thought of a Christian D&D setting, and the thread to be locked within a few posts. Though, admittedly, a part of me wants to create a Christian-themed setting just for the sake of being controversially different.
Dastari 02-17-07, 06:06 PM	Of course with how most Christian sects paint D&D players as satanists I am always greatly amused when I see people talk about Christianity and D&D. However, my own advice would be that you'd give both God and the Devil deity status. God has his clerics that he grants powers to and the Devil has his followers that he grants powers to. However, in a Christian setting its important to note that a lot of the Devil's clerics do not realize the true source of their powers. They might worship tribal gods which are really just the devil in a different guise or they may believe that they actually serve the true god but their overzealousness actually makes them a follower of the Devil (think the Inquisition here). In this case basically both God and the Devil grant all domains so each cleric just picks two out of the whole list except God doesn't have access to the Evil domain and the devil doesn't have access to the Good domain. Deities and Demigods actually has a few pages about running a campaign in a world with only two deities that represent opposite alignments. I recomend looking it up.
Alpha_Moose 02-17-07, 07:24 PM	A good class to include would be the Binder. A very demonic class. You could also have Islam and other religions, heck even having the normal D&D gods. Make YWHW an overdiety, with the saints as demigods, the angels as greater dieties, and the D&D gods, Thor, Ra, etc., as other powerful angels or demons.
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 07:44 PM	The thing about incorporating Islam is that the Muslim and Christian versions of Satan (Shaitan in the Qu'ran) are very different. In Christian theology, Satan is the Archangel Lucifer, who grew proud and rebelled against the will of God. In Islamic theology, Shaitan is Iblis, an Efreeti (Fire Djinn) who refused to bow before man when God ordered all creatures in the universe to do so. (His words were, "shall that which is made of fire bow to that which is made of clay?") Thus Iblis became the chief of the demons and all who are enemies of God.
Silverthumb128 02-17-07, 08:22 PM	Another thing you can do for Catholosism is base the Saints on a Domain, such as the Patron Saint of Travel (whose name escapes me right now) would essentially be the Travel Domain for Clerics. I think I smell a Prestige Class. :D
Yadot 02-17-07, 08:46 PM	This is a great idea. There are too many saints (even if you just stick with the major ones) to give them multiple domains. Therefore treating the use of a certain domain as calling upon a certain Saint makes much better sense. How about the Communion of Saints offers several generic domains such as Good etc. and a Cleric following the Communion must have one of their domains come from their patron Saint. For instance a Cleric modeling his life after St. Francis of Assisi could have the Animal and Good Domains. Other Saints would offer different domains such as martyrs having the Courage domain and St. Rita having the Family domain. A list of all DnD domains can be found here. (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-ClericalDomains.pdf)
Jachra 02-17-07, 09:06 PM	How're you handling arcanists? Enemy or allies of the church? Common or uncommon? (Maybe limit 'em to be sorcerers so only people with natural talent can handle it?) Or just make them arcanists related to Satan, though the idea disgusts me? ;D
Zicka 02-17-07, 09:20 PM	I GREATLY LIKE THIS IDEA. sorry, caps lock.\ Anyway... I like it all, myabe druids are pagans or somthing?
The_Normal_Anomaly 02-17-07, 10:15 PM	Another thing you can do for Catholosism is base the Saints on a Domain, such as the Patron Saint of Travel (whose name escapes me right now) would essentially be the Travel Domain for Clerics. You are thinking of St. Christopher. Also, oddly enought one deity already bears the name of a saint "St. Cuthbert".
LuciferNietzsche 02-17-07, 10:52 PM	I wouldn't play in such a setting unless I could be a half-fiendish, tiefling, or undead, warlock...who visciously hunts the weak followers of both Goat-boy and doG. :D But, for the sake of constructive discussion, I'll make some positive comments. But I'll do it from the perspective of a simply monotheistic campaign world. So far, the suggestions that the Deity should be an Overdeity are best, with the highest-ranking leaders of its servants being Greater, Intermediate, and Lesser deities which are not worshipped. There would otherwise be the normal celestial and fiendish outsiders. The Overdeity's primary opponent would be a Greater deity, formerly one of that Overdeity's highest servants, served himself by all of the fiendish beings in existence. As for the saints, there are already rules for sainthood, so there's no need to tamper with it. The Overdeity would not grant domains, but the deities serving him, as well as his opposition, would. Arcanists and Psions should not exist, though those others who cast divine spells would still exist, even if they do not worship the Overdeity. If Arcanists and Psions DO exist, they're rare, and probably hunted if discovered. The enemy of the Overdeity might take these into his service to use their abilities against the Overdeity's servants. Anything but animals should generally be considered abominations by the followers of the Overdeity, but those who are good, might be at least tolerated, if not embraced. Neutral and evil creatures, and perhaps even those who're chaotic good, however, should be hunted with extreme prejudice. It really depends on how far you want to take it. Much as I hate to even acknowledge the existence of them... While there are multiple denominations of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all worship the same being...the doG of Abraham. As such, Judaism and Islam should be treated as extreme denominations for the sake of simplicity. Assuming you would decide to include any other sects in the first place. Monotheistic worlds can be interesting and fun. They certainly offer an opportunity to more deeply explore the nature of faith by narrowing the scope of possibilities. Does it HAVE to be THAT kind of monotheism though? Oh well, to each their own. I feel soiled and corrupted now.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 10:55 PM	So, here's my idea for Christian clerics, based on some of my ideas and some of the ideas presented in this thread. The cleric must pick a sect of Christianity that he follows. He must also pick a patron saint. There would be one patron saint per domain in the game (I'd probably simply eliminate the Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil domains, as alignment would be trashed altogether in the setting). Of course, I'd have to compromise and leave some Christian saints out of the game, but I suppose if a player really wanted a certain patron saint I could substitute the one they wanted to play for the one I decided that was in there already. They may also pick a second domain freely, the only restriction being that to pick a racial domain you must be of that race (sorry, no elf clerics with the Orc domain). So, let's take this concept for a Christian cleric: battle healer. Let's make her human, and call her Sariya. Sariya is a Roman Catholic cleric, and her patron saint is Saint Jeanne d'Arc (War domain, I'd suppose). Her second, freely picked domain is Healing. She would strive to embody the Roman Catholic church, would be very warlike, and pray to God through St. Jeanne d'Arc for her spells. She otherwise acts as a cleric would normally. How does that look? Bear in mind I'm in just the alpha phase right now.
sciborg2 02-17-07, 11:27 PM	I think you'll run into a problem as not all denominations have saint figures. I know Catholocism does, and in Aremenia there is St. Nanek iirc, but I'm not sure of much beyond that. I thought most Protestant branches did not have saints and even felt the idea was a bad one. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along shortly....
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-17-07, 11:29 PM	EDIT: Removed.
sciborg2 02-17-07, 11:32 PM	edit: removed
Callista 02-17-07, 11:53 PM	I would suggest putting a Christian D&D setting in the Old Testament times--probably the time of the divided kingdom. You have good kings, bad kings, foreign gods, a lot of warfare and, if you want, historical nations other than just Israel. This lends itself to D&D much more nicely than the New Testament, since the New Testament focuses in on the individual, and the Old Testament is about kingdoms and kings and, yes, epic battles. I mean... come on, a 17 year old kid killing a giant with a sling... or a guy killing a couple hundred other guys using an ox's jawbone... The campaigns write themelves! Incidentally, you can do this in a monotheistic or polytheistic way: Either you have a single God and a lot of powerful evil outsiders (Moloch, Baal, etc.) pretending to be gods (and granting spells); or you can research the deities of the era and have a polytheistic setting.
Alpha_Moose 02-19-07, 12:52 PM	I think you'll run into a problem as not all denominations have saint figures. I know Catholocism does, and in Aremenia there is St. Nanek iirc, but I'm not sure of much beyond that. I thought most Protestant branches did not have saints and even felt the idea was a bad one. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along shortly.... It's not really that they don't have saints, it's to what amount they are praised and whatnot. The idea of receiving spells might be bad for some Protestants, but most Catholics would use saints as intermediaries between YWHW. Remember though, that it wasn't really until Luther that there were Christians who weren't Catholic, so it depends on how far along on the time line you want the campaign.
PiedmonSama 02-19-07, 01:03 PM	Even going back to before the Protestant reformation (as opposed to the Anglican), there were different sects of Christianity. The west was dominated by Catholicism, but in the east of Europe and much of Asia there was the Orthodox church (who definitely have a number of their own saints). Back in the old days, the Orthodox Church would be based around Constantinople the way the Catholic Church is based around Rome, with a Patriarch instead of a Pope. (Nowadays the Orthodox church has pretty much split up into dozens of different national branches and such.) And I'll just repeat the suggestion, you could have lots of fun with the weird little gnostic branches cropping up in North Africa, who focus on self-enlightenment and freedom over dogma.
El_Machinae 02-19-07, 01:15 PM	I feel sorry for Jack Chick and all his efforts.:P
malykoth 02-19-07, 02:08 PM	I think it's also important to remember that this is supposed to be a tabletop treatment of medievel Christianity...not a doctorate or even an essay. For the OP to capture every single sect and variant, in details historically acurate enough to please a theology or history professor, is futile at best. The same goes for comments suggesting it could be "insulting" or whatnot to portray certain groups in certain ways in his game...unless his players specifically find it insulting, this is a moot point, don't you think? As with most things pertaining to this game, I'd advise him to keep it simple, and don't be afraid to adjust as needed, even after the game has started. Needlessly cataloging dozens...or even hundreds...of sects (both major and obscure) could be fun for those obsessed with minutia, but would be a chore for most, and probably be wasted effort (unless, as stated, they enjoy the exercise...lord knows I've written hundreds of pages of detailed crap that no one else will ever read, as much as I'd like them too!). Of course, if he plans on publishing his work, all the arguments and warnings start to gain some weight. Meh...just a thought...
Alpha_Moose 02-19-07, 04:04 PM	Even going back to before the Protestant reformation (as opposed to the Anglican), there were different sects of Christianity. Meh, they were still "Catholic", just not "Roman Catholic." Anyways... What are you going to do with arcane spellcasters? I think that you could easily keep some of them (probably not Wu Jen or others) as long as the flavor is still there. The Warlock is very easy to put in with almost no change. And what about psionics and all the other "powers" that exist? I think Binders can work, so can some Sublime Way classes (Crusader, duh). Psions just seem too eastern flavor to work in a Europe setting.
sciborg2 02-19-07, 04:19 PM	I feel sorry for Jack Chick and all his efforts. I suspect his portrayal of gorgeous pagan priestesses actually brought people into the dark clutches of RPG...
Zicka 02-19-07, 08:37 PM	The anglacin church has saints, all the desciples could be saints...
Yadot 02-19-07, 11:20 PM	As far as I know only the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and several Protestant Churches have saints.
sooperspook 02-20-07, 09:00 AM	I feel sorry for Jack Chick and all his efforts.:P I don't. As a D&D playing Christian, I find his hysterical rantings to be more than a little embarrassing. P.s. LuciferNeitchze, while I respect your right to your opinions, and I'm sure you don't mean to offend, your comments in some places could be taken to be quite ...nasty, shall we say.
ArcTan 02-21-07, 10:29 PM	Hi there Ace! :) There already is a Christian Setting, its called Testament by Green Ronin. I don't own it so I can't tell you any more than that. But what I can recall is that its set during the Old Testament. Then it's kind of hard for it to be Christian, isn't it? (I mean, yes, the interpretation of the Old Testament in Christianity is very different from that of the interpretation of the Tanakh in Judaism. But still.)
ArcTan 02-21-07, 10:30 PM	It's not really that they don't have saints, it's to what amount they are praised and whatnot. The idea of receiving spells might be bad for some Protestants, but most Catholics would use saints as intermediaries between YWHW. Remember though, that it wasn't really until Luther that there were Christians who weren't Catholic, so it depends on how far along on the time line you want the campaign. *ahem* Eastern Orthodox. Great Schism. Big, important part of history. Happened five centuries before Luther.
ArcTan 02-21-07, 10:33 PM	Okay, I don't actually think that trying to have this idea as a literal interpretation of Christian belief is a really great idea. You can't do that without offending someone or stepping on someone's toes or just being embarrassingly wrong about something. I do think that a Christian-inspired belief system could be really interesting, though. It depends on how far you want to take it. Take a look at the RPG In Nomine for inspiration.
UnrelentingHoror 02-21-07, 11:37 PM	I love the idea too. I also love that you're all being very helpful and filling my mind with ideas. When I originally posted the thread I half expected a very bitter person to scorn me for even having the thought of a Christian D&D setting, and the thread to be locked within a few posts. Though, admittedly, a part of me wants to create a Christian-themed setting just for the sake of being controversially different. Awwww, really? Surely you don't think all of us non-abrahamic types conduct ourselves so poorly. :weep: ;) Anyways on a more serious note concerning this thread, when I firsrt started reading it first thing that came to mind was kind of a period piece setting in medieval times. Maybe just before the inquisition or during one of the crusades or something. I loved the God as an Overdeity with people taking their domains from a patron angel idea :) I mean I can see myself playing a cleric of the archangel Michael with the fire and war domains going all avenging angel on some barbarians or demons/cultists and whatnot :P Cuts a rather nice image if I do say so myself.
ElyasRavenwood 02-21-07, 11:47 PM	My two cents worth Running a Christian based D and D setting sounds interesting. There are two questions I can think of that would probably crop up. I know people have mentioned you will need to deal with the Arcane. How does the populace and society view people who use arcane magic? Presumably using arcane magic drawing on a power other then God. Will this be frowned upon? Cast in a demonic light? Another interesting question will be the problem of evil. If god is omniscient omnipotent and benevolent why is there evil, and why do bad things happen in the world. I understand the belief that evil is the result of sin. That choice can lead to evil. However what about Natural Disasters? I know this is something that has been debated for a very long time and I don’t pretend to have any sort of answer. If we are in a world where God intervenes very concretely through the gift of divine magic, then why is there evil? I like the idea of running a Christian based D and D game. I have done so in the past myself. At that time, my players and I were nominally catholic. The “Church” was essentially a short hand that everyone playing was familiar with. Nobody minded. Now I tend to stick to something home brewed, or something like Grey hawk. No one is offended nor did they feel as if I was proselytizing. Well those are my two cents for what they are worth. I hope it helps.
Janusunaj 02-22-07, 12:10 AM	One way to do this is to have arcane power represented as something not even in a spiritual sense. Like science or the power cosmic from Marvel.
sciborg2 02-22-07, 03:37 AM	I understand the belief that evil is the result of sin. Yet I believe it was the anchoress Julian of Norwhich who noted that sin is "necessary" though she also agreed it was evil. Was it necessary as part of the plan? As part of the human condition? What did this woman who willingly became a literal shut in mean? I think these are the kinds of interesting questions who might want to put into your setting -- there were so many varied practitioners/mystics that would really make this an intriguing game. Another amazing inspiration for a Celtic-Christian campaign is The Dragon and The Unicorn by Attanasio...
Leress 02-22-07, 03:49 AM	I would suggest getting "Anger of Angels" from Malhavoc Press it was written by Sean K Reynolds. I have it and it pretty good.
oracle71 02-22-07, 10:32 AM	If god is omniscient omnipotent and benevolent why is there evil, and why do bad things happen in the world. I understand the belief that evil is the result of sin. That choice can lead to evil. However what about Natural Disasters? I know this is something that has been debated for a very long time and I don’t pretend to have any sort of answer. If we are in a world where God intervenes very concretely through the gift of divine magic, then why is there evil? The first part of this question is fairly simple: God loves us enough to give us free will. Just as parents have to allow their children the freedom to make mistakes, and occasionally get the cuts, bruises, broken bones, and broken hearts. As children, we need to go through these things so that we may learn about consequences, and so that we can learn to overcome the challenges of being an adult. Similarly, God permits evil to exist so that He can show us how to overcome it, and bring about an even greater good, thus reminding us that good is ultimately more powerful than evil. But what about natural disasters? That is certainly a more difficult question to answer in the real world (and I am not sure I have the understanding to come up with an answer anyway), but in the D&D world, where, as you so eloquently put God intervenes through divine magic, it is very likely that He allows disasters to bolster his people to acts of large scale goodness, thus increasing the amount of good in the world. For example, if an earthquake levels a town, what happens next? The people come together to rescue whomever they can. The priests perform healing and resurrection services. Crews start clearing out the debris, and rebuilding homes. While they are doing this, they are helping each other, sharing with each other, and building friendships, which makes the entire community stronger, as well as nurturing the faith of the individual. I don't know the exact verse this is, but I've learned to remember this: "What you intended for evil, God has used for good."
spectralphoenix 02-22-07, 02:40 PM	As for arcane casters, perhaps you could make all "traditional" wizards witches, occultists, or the like but have a "mystic" class or something similar that is the same except replaces arcane material components with a divine focus like clerics do. Exactly what time period do you have in mind? I was thinking Crusades-era might have the most medieval feel. Also, you might want to remove or at least limit Raise Dead and its variants. After all, the whole "returned from the dead" thing isn't as impressive if the guy down the street can do it with a big enough diamond.
Alpha_Moose 02-22-07, 04:57 PM	*ahem* Eastern Orthodox. Great Schism. Big, important part of history. Happened five centuries before Luther. Meh, they were still "Catholic", just not "Roman Catholic." Anyways... Actually, my religion teacher in a Catholic school was Eastern Orthodox. There's very little difference, just they don't follow the Pope completely. Which reminds me, what about the Pope? Will he be like an epically powerful cleric or will you do something like Eberron did and have him only really powerful in the Vatican or something? OH, and what about artifacts? Trying to find the Holy Grail and such would be great campaigns. Just don't put in Nazis.:P
sciborg2 02-22-07, 06:40 PM	I don't know the exact verse this is, but I've learned to remember this: "What you intended for evil, God has used for good." Hmmmm....in the context of our usual discussions about LG, I'm thinking that a being cannot do Evil in the name of inspiring greater Good. This is D&D mind you, and it might do well to throw out alignment altogether. But this will really depend on who you are in the setting. Now the DM has to make a choice with God acting in the world - is there a definitive right answer to theological questions like this, or is such a thing even possible? Different sects will answer this in different ways. Some gnostics say all of us make up God and we have to reconstitute the Light, others will tell you that the world is still in a state of Genesis. Theilhard combines the two, he believed that we would transcend our bodies but there was a chance Evil could "win" only because some would be kept from the Great Union where we would all become fully realized as the One and Many. Ultimately, it is also a question of how far you want to challenge your players with all this theology. Perhaps the campaign is meant to be a romp through medieval Europe. Personally I think PCs trying to find answers to these questions might make for good role-playing but you have to know your group as it could get very personally very quickly.
thebestideaieverhad 02-22-07, 06:58 PM	:confused: This whole thread is seriously gimping the fun of my D&D experience. D&D is supposed to be a fantasy world where anything (potentially) can happen. What's the fun of emulating real life history? plus a christian setting would be taking away the fun of ppl thinking you are practicing occult witchcraft.:confused:
ElyasRavenwood 02-22-07, 09:40 PM	As an aside note or question. In a world where there is concrete evidence of God, or a pantheons presence through the gift of divine magic would there be atheists? I think there might be- at least some wizards might write off gods as simply powerful beings who have duped people into believing they are divine. However I think there would not be any agnostics. The question of weather gods exist would be settled. Proof would be provided. Nobody would need to wait for Godot
sciborg2 02-22-07, 11:02 PM	I think there might be- at least some wizards might write off gods as simply powerful beings who have duped people into believing they are divine. See Athar.
UnrelentingHoror 02-23-07, 04:09 AM	My two cents as far as the wizardry thing goes. Assuming its not set during say, the inquisition or whatever, have arcane casting be kind of a social grey area alot like druids would be. I mean yeah the church doesn't like them but they have been around the common folk for awhile and may have given out some good advice and or charms in the past. Besides I'm sure alot of your good church going commoners go seek "advice" of a certain nature when its needed. Heck, in the bible didn't one of the high holy virtuous dudes(can't remember who right now) go seek out a witch so he could speak with a dead saint? So yeah, mistrusted but not burned at the stake unless they start some crap is my call on those types in this kind of setting.
kintire 02-23-07, 04:51 AM	Heck, in the bible didn't one of the high holy virtuous dudes(can't remember who right now) go seek out a witch so he could speak with a dead saint? Saul went to a Witch to contact the prophet Samuel... and got chewed out for it. In a medieval campaign there should be little problem with arcane casters. That stuff all kicked off in the renaissance, and had little to do with the church anyway. Even then, people like Dr John Dee could quite openly practice scholastic magic with impunity.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-24-07, 03:05 AM	Also, you might want to remove or at least limit Raise Dead and its variants. After all, the whole "returned from the dead" thing isn't as impressive if the guy down the street can do it with a big enough diamond. You call a 9th-level cleric with a diamond the guy down the street? And Jesus resurrected himself. Or, one might possibly debate that he never actually died.
Harlan_Arcenciel 02-24-07, 03:57 AM	Wow, I got a forum account just to reply to this thread because I'm doing this exact thing. Well, I'm actually creating a monotheistic system based on how I interpret some basic Christian beliefs. I agree with a lot of other posters that an 'overdeity' with a system of domain-oriented saints is the best way to accommodate players. I allow players that go straight to the deity the 'pick two domains' option. However, I'm also letting certain cultures worship the saints as deities, but with different domains. I can't imagine (what I hope) a merciful god saying 'okay, you failed the divine 'who's the deity' quiz! no healing for you!'. Here are some other things I'm doing to avoid problems: 1)Detect Evil doesn't work per se-the spell detects some evil in all people, even trace amounts. Only Outsiders show up as super-glowing Good or Evil. This keeps paladins from going blade-happy, and also allows for the real-world problem of corrupt clergy. Don't forget the option that priests don't have to be clerics-they can simply be people with lots of religious training. 2)I took away the Arcane/Divine divide-not the spell lists or the way the classes function, but the idea that arcane magic comes from one source and divine comes from another. I approached all arcane magic as a sort of talent that can be developed, like music or painting. My saints of magic are actually identical twins, and mystic theurges are common in their service. This also allows for agnostics and atheists, since there are possibly many magically gifted people that believe in nothing but their intellects. 3)I came up with an explanation for the monstrous races-if there is only one god, then the 'you are an evil race because you worship and were created by an evil god!!!' just kind of falls flat. It's kind of funny imagining a gnoll cleric and a human favored soul that actually follow the same saint even though they each picture her differently. 4)I placed an emphasis on actions for alignment-you are evil because of your actions. These can include subtle things, like constantly enjoying and entertaining thoughts of torturing your enemies-but you can only be punished for things you actually commit/inflict. Pally McRighteous can't be the thought police. 5)I dealt with certain spells-like Ressurection, by saying they don't work under normal circumstances. Imagine all the commoners that get killed at the beginning of the typical 'Goblin bandits raid the town!!!!' scenario. I can't imagine a sack of GPs and diamonds making a PC's life more important than a commoner child's. Unfortunately, you could have all of the Raise dead, etc. spells work normally under the idea of 'indulgences', since there was a real-world precedent (even if it was a total crock!). Of course, all of these measures are based on the idea of one deity that values love and free-will. Your interpretation could be entirely different. The things I'm having trouble with are actually aberrations-the Cthulu Mythos of Elder Evils just doesn't mesh, y'know? I hope some of this was helpful,but if it wasn't then blame it on me trying to do this at 3 am! :P
sciborg2 02-24-07, 04:39 AM	And Jesus resurrected himself. Or, one might possibly debate that he never actually died. There is an argument that he *died*, that we all *die*, as the concept of the lingering soul comes from Greek mythology and is not as readily found in the Old Testament...and that similarly he came *back* as the faithful will return. Of course, the question must be asked if one can cease to be and yet then return and be sure that one is themself even if transfigured. Admittedly, divinity is in the business of miracles...
WarDragon 02-25-07, 03:07 PM	Of course, all of these measures are based on the idea of one deity that values love and free-will. Your interpretation could be entirely different. The things I'm having trouble with are actually aberrations-the Cthulu Mythos of Elder Evils just doesn't mesh, y'know? I hope some of this was helpful,but if it wasn't then blame it on me trying to do this at 3 am! Perhaps Aberrations are similar to Outsiders, only instead of being creatures of belief, they are from outside of creation altogether? It could make for some interesting scenarios, if angels and devils were to stop in the midst of fighting each other, and close ranks against the illithids and beholders...
blue_ghost11 02-25-07, 06:30 PM	I can't think of anything to say for this post, but I just wanted to let everybody know that I admire anyone who wants to make a Christian D&D setting. I do believe that D&D isn't very popular among us Christians, and it is extremely challenging to make a setting around the true God.
Werral 02-25-07, 07:11 PM	The thing about incorporating Islam is that the Muslim and Christian versions of Satan (Shaitan in the Qu'ran) are very different. In Christian theology, Satan is the Archangel Lucifer, who grew proud and rebelled against the will of God. In Islamic theology, Shaitan is Iblis, an Efreeti (Fire Djinn) who refused to bow before man when God ordered all creatures in the universe to do so. (His words were, "shall that which is made of fire bow to that which is made of clay?") Thus Iblis became the chief of the demons and all who are enemies of God. There's no reason that characters in the campaign would have any way of knowing which was correct.
spectralphoenix 02-25-07, 07:21 PM	There's no reason that characters in the campaign would have any way of knowing which was correct. If outsiders can come to the material plane they could always ask one in person. Or if there are spells like Commune around, surely sooner or later someone would get it into their head to find out.
Alpha_Moose 02-25-07, 07:22 PM	There's no reason that characters in the campaign would have any way of knowing which was correct. Also they aren't that widely different so as to matter too much for the players anyways. Even in the D&D cosmology there is differing histories for the same god or demon. Speaking of gods, will you include St. Cuthbert as he is from the normal D&D pantheon? That would just be an interesting tie in from the normal D&D world. I wonder if you would have to include the other planes and worlds. Just imagine priests trying to convert people in Sigil to Christianity. I wonder how the Lady would view that? Hmm...
Nathreet 02-25-07, 07:33 PM	Introducing race (in terms of skin color), religion, gender differences, etc. is opening a can of worms. It's best not to try to be a DM with all the answers to the tough questions. Even though many people might give generally correct answers, once you get into details you run yourself into trouble. I'd do it by analogy. Try to play out all the tough questions in a radically different setting. Half-orc discrimination. True religion vs. hypocritical (often a topic with paladin "goodness"). Etc. The best part is that, if it gets too heated, you can easily back away from any question and revert to hack-n-slash. I think a "Christian" D&D setting from a modern perspective would (incorrectly) tend to lead to Deus Ex Machina. Or even if not, some other view of the DM will come into play. Once you handle the matter by analogy it opens the issue to rational player discussion, rather than DM railroading reality into what's "right". Often leads to bad, "religious" things that are just plain horrendous, not religious.
Werral 02-25-07, 07:35 PM	If outsiders can come to the material plane they could always ask one in person. Or if there are spells like Commune around, surely sooner or later someone would get it into their head to find out. I don't think a Commune spell should allow you ever to speak to God - either God wants to speak to you or doesn't, no barging in with a Commune spell. Evil outsiders couldn't be trusted and good ones might see such questions as disrespectful. Besides outsiders would probably only come on some errand and limit the info they give to mortals (except prophets etc...) On the subject of divination: Detect Evil - detect sin: Normal mortal - faint, everyone's a sinner. Good outsider - none Evil outsider - as per PHB Protection from evil: Only affects supernaturals: outsiders, undead etc... Arcane magic - maybe on this world some of the energy from creation was left floating around and that's what arcane magic users tap into. Or All arcane magic comes from the devil (in line with the Bible). Good arcanes are deluded if they convert they can trade wizard/sorcerer levels for cleric levels. (Arcane magic items are evil too) Aberrations: Satan's botched attempts at creating life.
Werral 02-25-07, 07:41 PM	Introducing race (in terms of skin color), religion, gender differences, etc. is opening a can of worms. It's best not to try to be a DM with all the answers to the tough questions. Even though many people might give generally correct answers, once you get into details you run yourself into trouble. I'd do it by analogy. Try to play out all the tough questions in a radically different setting. Half-orc discrimination. True religion vs. hypocritical (often a topic with paladin "goodness"). Etc. The best part is that, if it gets too heated, you can easily back away from any question and revert to hack-n-slash. I think a "Christian" D&D setting from a modern perspective would (incorrectly) tend to lead to Deus Ex Machina. Or even if not, some other view of the DM will come into play. Once you handle the matter by analogy it opens the issue to rational player discussion, rather than DM railroading reality into what's "right". Often leads to bad, "religious" things that are just plain horrendous, not religious. Set it earlier in Christian history, so you have Christians and Roman, Goth and Gallic pagans, Zarathustrians, and now I can't remember the name, but the one Saint Augustine was before he converted. The Crusades era could end up as a caricatured analogy for now. That's be something ot watch out for. But as another poster said, this is the OP's home setting, so as long as his players are down with it there's no problem.
sciborg2 02-25-07, 07:45 PM	yeah, this is the kind of setting everyone should agree to beforehand. but there is a lot of potential for an interesting campaign, or even a one-shot.
blue_ghost11 02-25-07, 11:43 PM	Sorry for the useless post I posted earlier today. I felt a desperate need to post something on this thread, but I didn't have anything useful to say. Time for my feedback: I believe that a Christian setting would work best with a low-magic (both arcane and divine) campaign. Just because a lot of people are religious doesn't mean that the world is dominated by clerics. The church should be composed mostly of aristocrats, even its leaders. Clerics should be rare and serve mainly as prophets. In the church, there could be just as many evil clerics (false prophets) as there are true, good ones (perhaps even more). I think that a Christian campaign would work best if magic was just common enough so most people will believe in it; there shouldn't be spellcasters around every corner. I think divine magic shouldn't be called "magic" at all; perhaps "miracles" would be a better term. Also, wouldn't it be an interesting campaign idea if Christianity was the true religion, but not the dominant one? I have some ideas below for a campaign: Atheist: Most people in the world believe in no god. Christians are rare, but suffer few hindrances. Corrupt church: Based on medieval times. Christianity is the dominant religion, but the church is corrupt and selfish. The priests hold a monopoly on spiritual truth. Because of the corruption of the church, and the ignorance of the common people, true Christians are rare. Multi-religious: There are many different conflicting religions out there, of which Christianity is one. Perhaps the most similar to the real world. Pagan: Based on the Roman Empire. The majority of the world follows a pagan religion (perhaps the standard D&D pantheon). Christians are persecuted. Evil: Satan rules the world! Almost the entire world is engaged in active, direct Satan worship. The main spiritual figure in the world is an epic cleric/blackguard (perhaps the Antichrist or a type of the Antichrist). Some people oppose Satan, but are fearful to speak out because of the harsh punishments. Christians are severely persecuted. The Bible clearly states that magic is evil. Thus, it would be difficult to make a good adventuring party in a Christian campaign, considering the importance of arcane spellcasters in D&D. Perhaps you could make all spellcasters divine?
kintire 02-26-07, 06:57 AM	The Bible clearly states that magic is evil. Actually, it does no such thing. Certain types of magic are strictly forbidden, especially anything that smacks of turning for advice or guidance to a supernatural power other than God. Magic in general is only a vaguely treated, and certainly in the medieval period the prohibition was believed to be on Maleficia; that is to say hostile or harmful magic. There were magicians who practiced quite openly; they weren't exactly keenly encouraged, but they weren't persecuted, provided they stuck within the limits.
Janusunaj 02-26-07, 11:34 PM	Even if you went the route to state that it says no such thing, it clearly DOES, if only the English word for it. Though I do see your point. It may have meant something different in the language it was written. However Christianity does see magic as sinful, so I would suggest leaving magic as evil in the setting.
Lord_Tirian 02-27-07, 12:33 AM	There's no reason that characters in the campaign would have any way of knowing which was correct. Exactly. Additionally, there is also another way to explain it: Both accounts are true in the setting, but the mortal mind can only understand it split of into two distinct stories. I don't think a Commune spell should allow you ever to speak to God - either God wants to speak to you or doesn't, no barging in with a Commune spell.Or: It is some kind of divine vision. After all, the caster meditates for about 10 minutes and burns XP. This could represent some kind of divinely inspired epiphany, and the XP loss represents the ennui after glimpsing a sliver of perfection and paradise. Arcane magic - maybe on this world some of the energy from creation was left floating around and that's what arcane magic users tap into.That's a good approach. Additionally the Churches could consider some schools of magic (Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy) as "evil" schools, because they mess with the free will and/or dangerous forces. Especially spells creating lasting matter are treading on divine ground. Other magic could be perceived as "different kind" of channelling the inherent divine of the world - carefully watched by the Church. In fact, tempered arcane magic could even be taught in monasteries, not as "arcane magic", but rather as scriptures containing holy blessing, or similar to the cabbalistic traditions (like using the true names of holy/unholy beings), whereas clerical magic is rather channelling the deity's will into miracles. Aberrations: Satan's botched attempts at creating life.That's a very nice approach.
Skeptical Clown 02-28-07, 02:28 PM	If there are other deified beings besides God, then the world isn't really monotheistic. The problem with converting Christianity (or any monotheist religion) into D&D style fantasy is that it just doesn't convert very well. If Christianity is put into context of D&D, then God is definitely, demonstrably acting in the real world--and he's the only deity. So either other religions do not exist, or they're just wrong. A better approach might be similar to what Eberron does; deities do not interact with the material world, and so religion is a matter of faith. The Silver Flame does a fairly good job of filling the role of a monotheist church, while avoiding most of the difficulties.
awaken_D_M_golem 02-28-07, 06:13 PM	Historically speaking , the 3 Pantheons in D&Dg were all 'bull rushed' by Christianity. ;) If you suppose the populace at large , is the D&D universe , then a mechanical advantage should or might be assigned. Since anyone could become C , including a Roman Soldier , who then went back to work , perhaps ... DM fiat gets to determine whether the mechanical advantage is in effect. This unsteadies the game // well , duh . I suggest : +1 bonus to one Craft or Profession skill 1/week receive Imbue with Spell Ability requires in game huzzahs to the obvious source Now the tricky part - The Believers get these bonuses , whether they behave or not :evillaugh because , obviously , the bad guy steps in almost immediately. World view , the C's slowly take over , but not behaving all the time. Lots of shifting alliances , secret meeting places , subterfuge ...
Werral 03-01-07, 02:36 PM	You could add a Faith Ability score. Paladins use it rather than Chr for their class abilities Clerics use it rather than Wis for spells. Your actions affect it so it goes up and down during play. Not sure how it'd work...
Callista 03-01-07, 03:00 PM	My two cents worth Running a Christian based D and D setting sounds interesting. There are two questions I can think of that would probably crop up. I know people have mentioned you will need to deal with the Arcane. How does the populace and society view people who use arcane magic? Presumably using arcane magic drawing on a power other then God. Will this be frowned upon? Cast in a demonic light?Easy: Handle arcane magic the same way you handle technology. At its roots, arcane magic is harnessing a force basic to the universe through one's will or intelligence. That puts it on the same level as technology--neutral, but usable for good and bad purposes alike. However, that doesn't mean that some people won't see it as evil or miraculous or both... After all, even a steam engine looks pretty sinister to the medieval mindset. Another interesting question will be the problem of evil. If god is omniscient omnipotent and benevolent why is there evil, and why do bad things happen in the world. I understand the belief that evil is the result of sin. That choice can lead to evil. However what about Natural Disasters? I know this is something that has been debated for a very long time and I don’t pretend to have any sort of answer.Classical answer: The world itself has been corrupted by sin; therefore, bad things happen to everyone who lives in it, not just the evil people. If we are in a world where God intervenes very concretely through the gift of divine magic, then why is there evil?Because God believes in free choice--he won't force people to choose good; they're free to choose evil. If he forces people to be Good, it won't be true Good--just coercion. And since evil is the easy way out, since demons work to make it even easier, since people themselves are not perfect... Many people, when given a free choice, do choose evil.
Dnjscott 03-01-07, 03:25 PM	It really isn't that hard to combine Christianity and fantasy. I mean, there was some older fantasy series by some really respected Christian... Name rhymes with 'Pew-is'... ;) As in, you already have two Christian fantasy settings--Narnia and Middle Earth. They're both a little off and obscure compared to what you're probably thinking, but they're both there and active. You also have Lewis' Space Trilogy setiting, wherein the sub-deities were angels and demons--basically, the good and noble Pagan stories were angels and the weirder ones (seducing scads of mortals and random acts of cruelty) were actually demons. I never had a huge problem combining D&D and Christianity (it helped that I started with a version AD&D that described how the Clerics were extrapolated from genuine orders of fighting Priests). It helps if you don't get too carried away--just remember that St. Paul and Peter ended up martyred and your players probably aren't more favored by God than those two. As far as magic goes, first, as someone else pointed out, the church's relationship with magic can be a little different than pop culture would have us remember. Also, in a world where magic worked as well as it does in D&D the church might be more willing/obligated to make concessions. Thirdly, you can just go the Narnian route and assume magic is okay in magical worlds. I guess the way I'd make a Christian setting is to take something like Forgotten Realms, make Ao into God, make the powerful good deities Angels and make the weak ones Saints. Magic-using priests of non-good deities is probably fine (see: the Priests of Set[?] in Exodus or Simon the Magus in Acts). In other words, I just wouldn't change it that much. I mean, 3rd 3d GURPS Fantasy/GURPS Banestorm has a Christian church basis (since it involves real world types pulled into another world) and that seems to get by okay, and RIFTS has both Christian Preachers in New West and Orthodox Priests in Russia. Deadlands has Christian Preachers, too. Contrary to popular belief, neither of those companies has been struck by lightning, sued, or burned by an angry mob. ;) Sorry if I come off as snarky. It's just funny to me that this is still such a taboo topic when a lot of other systems seem to have no problem with it...
awaken_D_M_golem 03-01-07, 05:04 PM	sola deo gloria except in D&D , you kinda have to acknowledge Gygax ... ouch ... i just got hit by a shocking grasp effect otoh , how does a player character 'know' about gygax ? i don't think there's a Knowledge ( ancient D&D ) check high enough , well , umm , there's Pun and Omni and Blingy now , too ! Cleric Domains are somewhat of a challenge. Can't take Evil and pretend to be really good. Might need a disguise alignment effect to keep playing , instead of the bonuses I listed above. Rules don't allow all domains to be choose-able , and yet theology says {duh}. Maybe approach it as forces/philosophies/orders , yet with you-know-who in charge. Paladins can have a constant interior battle of believe vs. necessity or some other rationalization.
Lujayne34 03-01-07, 07:16 PM	I always do this on threads like this. Maybe because I have used this successfully myself. James Wyatt still has some stuff posted that he submitted to the setting search. Two of them involve the Christian mythos. One is a little more obscure (like Lewis and Tolkien) the other is more blatant and has echoes of Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity. Scroll down to check out Night and Petroyeska respectively. Petroyeska has Angelic Orders for priests set up inculding their various domains etc. http://aquela.com/roleplaying/worlds.html
Alpha_Moose 03-01-07, 08:45 PM	I thought up an idea. Take the binder (I like the class) and replace vestiges with saints. Instead of binding himself to them they bless him with different powers depending on what they are patrons of. This makes someone who is not specifically 'stuck' with one saint like the cleric would be, but you still use the saints. You'd have to re-work a lot of the class, mostly just changing flavor.
TheHarrow 03-02-07, 05:38 PM	I like the idea of a binder for saints, it seems easy to replace Vestiges with the communion of Saints, or for convenience sakes just keep them as Vestiges. Saints are never cannonized while their still alive i believe. Sticking with the Binder idea, how about ditching alignment all together and picking up Taint and the Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine from Heroes of Horror?
sciborg2 03-03-07, 02:36 AM	Binder for Saints is a definitive thumbs up. I don't believe this forum is the right place to discuss major religious questions as they relate to RL -- why is there suffering, etc. However, a campaign that seeks answers to these questions, at least in part, might be interesting. Though that's more of an Eberron type game, where no one knows if God/Satan/etc are real or fake.
Werral 03-03-07, 03:13 PM	In other words, I just wouldn't change it that much. I mean, 3rd 3d GURPS Fantasy/GURPS Banestorm has a Christian church basis (since it involves real world types pulled into another world) and that seems to get by okay, and RIFTS has both Christian Preachers in New West and Orthodox Priests in Russia. Deadlands has Christian Preachers, too. Contrary to popular belief, neither of those companies has been struck by lightning, sued, or burned by an angry mob. ;) Sorry if I come off as snarky. It's just funny to me that this is still such a taboo topic when a lot of other systems seem to have no problem with it... Yeah, we played loads of RRPG's where RL religions were depicted: Pendragon with it's Christian and Pagan knights, Ars Magica with it's mythological Europe. There really is no reason for the big hoo har. An Arthurian setting might work well? There's arcane magic, pagans and Christians all in the mix, the elves, gnomes and halflings could be fey.
Dnjscott 03-03-07, 05:12 PM	Yeah, we played loads of RRPG's where RL religions were depicted: Pendragon with it's Christian and Pagan knights, Ars Magica with it's mythological Europe. There really is no reason for the big hoo har. An Arthurian setting might work well? There's arcane magic, pagans and Christians all in the mix, the elves, gnomes and halflings could be fey. And Dwarves, too! I have an old version of Arthur stories and all the knights seem to have little dwarves that ride with them on their horses and maintain theri equipment.
Alpha_Moose 03-03-07, 05:46 PM	And Dwarves, too! I have an old version of Arthur stories and all the knights seem to have little dwarves that ride with them on their horses and maintain theri equipment. And bang coconuts together?:P You do Arthur, make it Monty Python. "Your Knights of the Round Table shall have a task to make them an example in these dark times" "Good idea oh Lord!" "Of course it's a good idea!"
blue_ghost11 03-06-07, 11:33 PM	Hi, I'm back. After reading your posts about a possible Christian campaign, I have realized that it is easier to make a Christian fantasy setting than I thought. However, I don't know how to make Christianity work in a fantasy GAME. Christians believe in giving over all fears and problems to God, to let God take care of them. God also probably will not grant powers to adventurers who will use it for their own personal gain, even if that gain will further God's cause. That is a big difference between the true God and the gods of the D&D pantheon. I don't understand how you can incorporate that into the game and still have it be fun. Also, you realize that the DM will have to essentially play God? Well, if you're not really a Christian, that won't matter, but what about those who are Christian and are serious about making a moral campaign?
Dnjscott 03-06-07, 11:44 PM	I don't understand how you can incorporate that into the game and still have it be fun. Also, you realize that the DM will have to essentially play God? Well, if you're not really a Christian, that won't matter, but what about those who are Christian and are serious about making a moral campaign? Well, on the first, I guess you should check out Book of Exalted Deeds and hand out a lot of the more restrictive vows. The DM does have to play God, but, as I mentioned before, it's worth remembering that most of the luminaries of the New Testament did end up dead after a while. Hence the DM should try to be fair (maybe handing out the risen Martyr Prestige Class from Exalted Deeds or the Martyr of Ilmater from Player's Guide to Faerun instead of just being arbitrary?) and eventually let the PCs run out of choices. I can imagine writing a Christian fantasy novel in the way you're describing, but the freewheeling chaos of most campaigns I've played in makes me pretty skeptical of a moral-based version thereof.
Janusunaj 03-07-07, 01:04 AM	The voice who played the Lion Aslan of Narnia had no reason to feel bad, because he was just acting. GMs are little more than narrators.
kintire 03-07-07, 11:17 AM	Christians believe in giving over all fears and problems to God, to let God take care of them Christians do not believe that the answer to every problem is "God will sort it out!" if that's what you mean. He's aid to the needy, not a convenience to the lazy. Expecting people to get out there and sort problems out is not going to be a problem in a Christian universe.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 04:50 PM	Hi, I'm back. After reading your posts about a possible Christian campaign, I have realized that it is easier to make a Christian fantasy setting than I thought. However, I don't know how to make Christianity work in a fantasy GAME. Christians believe in giving over all fears and problems to God, to let God take care of them. God also probably will not grant powers to adventurers who will use it for their own personal gain, even if that gain will further God's cause. That is a big difference between the true God and the gods of the D&D pantheon. I don't understand how you can incorporate that into the game and still have it be fun. Also, you realize that the DM will have to essentially play God? Well, if you're not really a Christian, that won't matter, but what about those who are Christian and are serious about making a moral campaign? Being the DM in a Christian campaign isn't fundamentally different from being an author who dictates the course of events in a Christian work of fiction. Same deal, in both cases -- you're trying to respectfully depict the way you think God would work in the world in the way you think makes sense based on what you know about your religion's teachings about God. This is different from "playing God" by simply dictating what you *want* God to do in this fantasy world with no regard for what it would make sense or be right for God to do. As for playing in a campaign with an all-powerful God... well, since Christianity is a real-world religion, clearly Christians believe their idea of God is compatible with the world they see around them. And the real world is just as unpredictable, messy, and dangerous as any fantasy game world, if not more so. Christianity teaches that God *ultimately* makes things work together for the good, but in the meantime there's all kinds of struggle, danger, temptation, chaos and pain. That's why Christians have to have faith in the first place. Lord of the Rings was written by a devout Christian who frames the fantasy events in Lord of the Rings as being in a Christian context -- Eru Iluvatar is the Christian God and, as in our world, makes everything in the world of Middle-Earth follow his plan in the end. That doesn't mean the universe of LotR isn't filled with struggle, uncertainty, and pain from the limited perspective of the mortal protagonists. Note that, especially, God *does* have a tendency to give people power and then let them decide what to do with it. If you believe in God, you already believe he does this with "mundane" power -- God gave Hitler his charisma, God gave the Unabomber his intelligence, God gave Osama bin Laden his wealth. In the Bible, God is explicitly stated to be responsible for the military might of the Egyptians and Assyrians, the enemies of God's people. I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true of supernatural powers, of one kind or another. God does grant miraculous powers to humans in the Bible *who do misuse them* -- Moses when he strikes the rock with his staff, Samson when he uses his supernatural strength for his own comforts. The Bible bans the use of evil sorcery, but in so doing implies that evil sorcery does exist and can be used -- as when the Witch of Endor summons forth Samuel's ghost. It's even stated that Satan and the demons have power because of God's sufferance and that he'll only take that power away at the end of all things -- until then, power exists and is scattered freely among the beings of creation, to be used for good or evil as they see fit. In other words, you can go with the framework suggested by the Bible, built up by later Christian tradition and consistent with what most Christians of various modern-day stripes believe and still have a great deal of conflict, choice between good and evil, and even supernatural power used for either side and still be in a "Christian" setting.
sciborg2 03-07-07, 07:36 PM	It seems this has become more a debate about Christianity as different posters view it than anything to do with establishing a setting. I don't see any resolution, or any point, in arguing how Christianity or the Christian God works in the real world.
ArcTan 03-08-07, 02:09 PM	It seems this has become more a debate about Christianity as different posters view it than anything to do with establishing a setting. I don't see any resolution, or any point, in arguing how Christianity or the Christian God works in the real world. Sure, but my point just is that there's nothing about how "real Christianity" works that makes it incompatible with using it as the basis for a fantasy adventure. I.e. "real Christianity" doesn't say anything about God being forced to act as a deus ex machina in all dangerous situations.
blue_ghost11 03-08-07, 11:34 PM	I'm really into this idea of a Christian campaign for D&D, but I still have a few questions as how it would work. I think I didn't state my question clearly enough the first time I asked it. When I said that God would take care of all problems, I did not mean that he would act as a deux ex machina. I meant that God is ultimately in control of all matters in this world, and even when God's people do not succeed in their plans, it is still part of God's greater plan, to be used for the greater good. I just don't see how the idea that God controls everything can fit in with D&D, where chance is such a big factor. I realize that any scenario can be used by God to his advantage, but I just don't think that God would let one of his people die needlessly just by a fluke of the dice. Of course, I could be wrong about this, and I gladly accept any criticism that I may receive. I still don't know how to handle the issue of arcane magic on the good side. It is entirely possible for magic to exist, but God's law forbids sorcery. It would make sense that in a Christian campaign, arcane magic could only be used in opposition to God. However, the arcane caster is a staple to the standard D&D adventuring party. It would be difficult for a party if they lacked one. Do you have any suggestions as to how to handle the issue? Maybe a decent replacement for the arcane casting classes? Thanks, guys, for answering my query about the DM playing God.
Janusunaj 03-09-07, 12:42 AM	Handle it maybe the Tolkien way, with Wizards not really being wizards at all?
morbid_freak 03-09-07, 01:15 AM	In my campaign settings all magical and supernatural abilities, were rare amongst humans and most other races, except for elves etc. So every human cleric, favored soul, anything with divine spells was dubbed a Saint once their spells and abilities manifested. (Npcs above level 4 were rare so rangers and paladins with spells just didn't happen) I mean, conjuring bread and water is considered a miracle! Just something you might like to add.
El_Machinae 03-09-07, 11:18 AM	I don't. As a D&D playing Christian, I find his hysterical rantings to be more than a little embarrassing. Right up there with Kirk Cameron and his banana video, I'd expect. I wondered at the penetration my reference would get; how many people heard of Jack Chick.
sciborg2 03-09-07, 03:04 PM	It would make sense that in a Christian campaign, arcane magic could only be used in opposition to God. However, the arcane caster is a staple to the standard D&D adventuring party. It would be difficult for a party if they lacked one. Do you have any suggestions as to how to handle the issue? Maybe a decent replacement for the arcane casting classes? I don't know anything about Christianity and sorcery, but I have friends of varied Eastern faiths (and know of people who practice Asartu (Norse gods revival sort of)). Simply, your faith is different from the game. Faith is part of real life, while D&D - for many - is an escape. So allow arcane casters as you see fit. If that doesn't work for you -- which is cool, you may find it disconcerting to misrepresent your faith even in setting, use favored souls. These are sorcerer-type figures but use clerical spells. Add some arcane spells to their list and you should be okay. Or how about psionics - is the power of the mind okay? You could have white magic vs black magic, the former comes from God but the latter doesn't. White magic might depend on the intercession of angels -- even they remain unseen when you cast magic missle. Not sure if any of that was helpful...:confused:
sciborg2 03-09-07, 03:07 PM	Sure, but my point just is that there's nothing about how "real Christianity" works that makes it incompatible with using it as the basis for a fantasy adventure. I.e. "real Christianity" doesn't say anything about God being forced to act as a deus ex machina in all dangerous situations. Wasn't trying to accuse anyone, just wanted to head off an argument. Sorry if it came off any other way.:embarrass I think that the big theological questions don't necessarily need to be answered -- people disagree in RL about these things, and have for all of human history. This search for answers can take place in game, or be ignored entirely.
Wyvern76 03-10-07, 03:23 PM	When I said that God would take care of all problems, I did not mean that he would act as a deux ex machina. I meant that God is ultimately in control of all matters in this world, and even when God's people do not succeed in their plans, it is still part of God's greater plan, to be used for the greater good.This is really a thelological question: is there a difference between what God allows and what he causes? Did God cause the Asian tsunami that killed almost 100,000 people in 2004? Of if someone goes to Vegas and wins a lot of money, was it God's will that he receive that money? I don't believe so. For one thing, the Bible says that God does not tempt people (James 1:13). Also, I think there's a difference between saying that "in all things God works for the good of those who love him" (Romans 8:28, emphasis mine) and saying that everything that happens, happens for our good. What this has to do with the game is that I believe there's room for chance in the Christian worldview. I know that not all Christians agree with this, and I understand why, but I don't think it should be considered a test of faith. As for the issue of arcane magic, in the first fantasy world I created I took a leaf from Tolkien and said that all magic was channeled either from Iluvatar or from demonic sources. In this sort of setting, there's no distinction between arcane and divine magic. For the purposes of a historical fantasy campaign, however, if I wanted to include wizards I would simply take an alternate historical route and say that either those verses in the Bible which condemn sorcery do not exist in this campaign setting, or they are interpreted in a very narrow sense (basically forbidding only fortune-telling and spiritism). Of course, that doesn't preclude the possibility of church-sponsored persecution of wizards, if you assume that not all church doctrine is truly in line with God's will, but that would require an explanation of divine magic as something other than evidence of God's favor. Wyvern
sciborg2 03-10-07, 08:08 PM	Good points -- what works in the game may differ seriously from a faith. A historical setting need not be historically accurate, same goes for a faith-based setting. Really, it doesn't matter how God works in the real world if the only point is to play the game for fun and no one is offended. Naturally running this at church to help teach the faith changes the topic and is outside the CoC anyway.
ArcTan 03-11-07, 12:26 AM	I'm really into this idea of a Christian campaign for D&D, but I still have a few questions as how it would work. I think I didn't state my question clearly enough the first time I asked it. When I said that God would take care of all problems, I did not mean that he would act as a deux ex machina. I meant that God is ultimately in control of all matters in this world, and even when God's people do not succeed in their plans, it is still part of God's greater plan, to be used for the greater good. I just don't see how the idea that God controls everything can fit in with D&D, where chance is such a big factor. I realize that any scenario can be used by God to his advantage, but I just don't think that God would let one of his people die needlessly just by a fluke of the dice. Of course, I could be wrong about this, and I gladly accept any criticism that I may receive. Well, God works in mysterious ways. In real life, people appear to die by a "fluke of the dice" all the time. Most Christians believe that whatever higher purpose there is behind random misfortune is something that can't and won't be explained during mortal life. Again, as long as your D&D game isn't more randomly brutal or dangerous than real life -- and it's hard to see how it could be -- then I don't see how it'd be impossible to base it on a Christian worldview. Not unless you actually insist that a "Christian setting" actually reveal God and God's thoughts and plans in detail and give the players a God's-eye view, which I don't think is necessary or even really possible. I still don't know how to handle the issue of arcane magic on the good side. It is entirely possible for magic to exist, but God's law forbids sorcery. It's ambiguous what this means. After all, a lot of what D&D calls magic can be duplicated by modern technology, and most Christians don't insist that technology is an evil. Indeed, a lot of practitioners of magic in history were Christians, and the Christian Bible does not unilaterally ban magic at all, just particular magical practices. (Note that certain characters in the Bible use what we would call magic, like Jacob influencing the reproduction of his uncle's herd.) In any case, reflavoring a D&D-like system or setting to have magic solely existing as an antagonist force is perfectly possible. Look at the Witch Slayer PrC or Karsite race from Tome of Magic for ideas. It would make sense that in a Christian campaign, arcane magic could only be used in opposition to God. However, the arcane caster is a staple to the standard D&D adventuring party. It would be difficult for a party if they lacked one. Do you have any suggestions as to how to handle the issue? Maybe a decent replacement for the arcane casting classes? Thanks, guys, for answering my query about the DM playing God. *shrug* Honestly, I'm going to twist the question about "D&D" here. I think if you're going to make the idea of a Christian setting interesting, the setting won't look like traditional D&D and it won't be an old-school dungeon crawl focused on killing monsters and gaining XP. But that's because I think such "old-school" D&D makes the details of a setting superfluous anyway. An *interesting* Christian D&D setting would make the campaign about the characters' moral choices more than their physical or supernatural abilities.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-11-07, 02:30 PM	Well, God works in mysterious ways ... Bible use{s} what we would call magic, like Jacob influencing the reproduction of his uncle's herd ... moral choices ... oh , that's where Justin Timberlake got his album title from. :rofl: .^. . .^. .^. . .^. arc tan - just the third 1/4 first , and the second 1/4 last heh , that was good , you've got to admit it. oh snap , i'm really going to hell.
TheHarrow 03-12-07, 02:18 AM	This thread makes me happy in a supernatural way! As for the idea of a Binder for Saints, i'm kicking around ideas for saints Jude and Francis, as well as a purely made up DnD saint called St. Sol. The original saint is going to be a level 1 saintly vestige (thats what i'm calling them right now). I have no clue as to where i would put Jude and Francis, vestige level wise. St Jude is known as the Impossible (patron of lost causes and such) and Francis is the progenator of the Franciscan order of monks. He was also said to have a great affinity for animals. Any Advice, amigos?
TheHarrow 03-13-07, 03:53 PM	St. Sol, the Blue Redeemer Level 1 Saintly Vestige (Binding DC 15) Legend: The Half-Elf that would become the vestige known as the Blue Redeemer began his life as cleric of the one true God. A janissary captured during the Crusades of Earth, St. Sol was redeemed through the love of Allah. He fought against the same knights he had come to the crescent with, and when the crusades were finished he returned to Europe to preach the word of God to the infidels. To a continent that had just lost a cultural conflict of epic proportion, St Sol was not viewed as a miracle-worker, but a witch. The Roman Catholic Church had St. Sol burnt at the stake in southern France. As he burned, he screamed sura after sura of the Koran. And God heard St. Sol, and the flames burned bright and blindingly blue as his body was consumed and his soul consecrated as a Saintly Vestige. Manifestation: St. Sol comes to the Saint Binder and Binders who want to be redeemed in God. He appears as a half elf with sun burnt features and a shock of red hair. He wears blue chain mail with no emblem and a long sword hangs at his side. He is sheathed in blue flames. Sign: A circle with the letters YHWH over the Arabic script for St.Sol. Hinderances: Compulsive Healer- must always heal the wounded before attacking any enemy. Influence: A halo of blue light flickers in and out of existence over the saint binders head. Granted Powers: Bright Concealment (The Caster is sheathed in bright blue heavenly fire. He or She is considered be under a blur spell constantly<that or 25% concealment>) Exalted Turning (saint binder can turn undead as a cleric of his level +4)
Tenadros 03-13-07, 05:03 PM	As an ordained Baptist minister (let the jokes begin) who is an avid D&D player as well as midly obssessed with church history I'm a big fan of this thread. Let it be noted however that those uninterested in either theology or history would probably be better served spending their time other than reading this post. For those who are more interested a few basics that come to mind. Firstly you have to make some choices. Personal theological suppositions aside in a world that recognizes religion X as being legitimate must by definition decide certain things about religion Y. Let me be clearer. A Christian cannot believe that Bhuddism is correct. They believe in mutually exclusive beliefs. Either we are reincarnated or not, either we are join the great nothingness or we got to Heaven/Hell. Pick one the others got to go. So if Christianity is declared by the DM to be true, tham Islam must by definition be false. So to start, the DM has to pick his religion. This will be the basis for the rest of the world. For the sake of debate, lets say that we declare Christianity to be the "true" religion. (lets not tell my church I just put that in quotes shall we?) Well by definition that means that Islam is a false religion created by a demon seeking to delude Mohammed. Other religions become religions worshiping either totally false premises and offering no power at all, or worshiping demonic forces. Remember since Christianity is true than all other forces must be evil influenced. Some exceptions can be made of course. Zen buddhism and Taoism focus on the perfection of the body's natural energy. We could say that this is true, for it does not conflict with Christianity (if it is true). So monks could have supernatural abilities without being "evil". Also remember that simply because a person is in an "evil" religion does not make them evil. If Islam is untrue and created by devils, it does not follow that Mohammed was evil. He may have actually believed that he was following the orders of Gabriel, when it was "actually" Lucifer in disguise. Essentially serving evil through ignorance. Secondly time period will factor in a lot. Renaissance means the removal of certain elements. Magic becomes easier, lots of "alchemists" there who could easily become mages. However, the pagan religions in Europe are wiped out at this time. Even the remote reaches of Scandinavia and Russia are almost entirely Christianized. Dark Ages, say around 900 or so becomes much easier. Scandinavia is pagan, as is most of Eastern Europe. Lots of Barbarian invasions and so forth. England (what there is of it) is Christianized but some pagans in the remote areas, as well as many "closet" pagans in the rural districts. Probably much the same in the other areas. The Reformation causes distinct problems as well. (This would be about the time of the Renaissance.) Again the DM has to choose. The reformation rejected the concept of the worship/veneration of saints. The use of relics, and most of the trappings of the Roman Catholic church. Now we have a choice, are the Roman Catholics wrong or is the reformation? Personally this depends entirely on your characters. If they serve the Inquisition, smart DM's have them hunting Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli as the BBEG. If they are kicking back in Germany they might decide to become Lutherans. Now if they decide to become Catholic, the domains are pretty straight forward, just check out the new catholic encyclopedia online and it will give you more saints than you can use. Either they pick their domains and you tell them which saint to light candles too, or they pick a saint and you give them domains. Protestants are different. They refuse worship of anything other than God (to greater and lesser degrees depending on the sect.) Their "power source" would be the Holy Spirit. (Think of it as God using his power to enable people to do things, less than either "possesing them" or being a seperate deity.) But remember that the Holy Spirit is not an inert power source. He is God himself, simply a different manifestation of God. (point of theological dispute for some.) Also note that their are four major branches of Catholicism. Roman, Eastern/Orthodox, Coptic, and Armenian. Not the Romans you are probably solid on. The Coptic are the gnostics mentioned earlier (it gets way more complex than this but we're oversimplifying here.) the Orthodox are an interesting blend of the mysticism of the Gnostics and the physicality of the Romans. The Armenians are a far eastern group throughout India and possibly even China, with their headquarters in Armenia. For Druids, I would call them pretty much any pagan priest. Be it witchdoctor, celtic druid, or Mongolian spiritist. Call them what you like, use the Druid as a template. Most classes come from a European background anyway so you are solid there. Mages become a problem. Personally, if you want simplified, lets have fun, you would run an extremely low powered magic world. Otherwise things like Agincourt turn out way different. You could also say that much like tech. magic is just beginning to be discovered. This way some priests hate it, and some practice it. This would be similar to the way "alchemists" were treated in reality. Other than that you are going to spend half your time rewriting history. Also remember that in Christianity supernatural beings don't reproduce (a variety of reasons for this that belong in a doctoral dissertation less than on here.) So things such as asimar and tiefling would be not from supernatural acts and more form magic influences. Mom was a mage and cast one to many transmutation spells or something. Thats all I can think of for the moment, but thats pretty heacy so I'll leave it for the moment.
TheHarrow 03-13-07, 05:49 PM	St. Jude, The Apostle (Extrapolated from Acererak) St. Jude is the patron saint of desperate or lost causes. As a saintly vestige, he grants Binders of Saints impossible powers. Legend: St. Jude was said to be one of the apostles of Jesus of Arimethea. He is sometimes known as Thaddius, and is not to be confused with Judas Iscariot. In life His attribute is a club. He was an all around cool guy and said to be the bridegroom at the Wedding of Cana. That’s where the water-into-wine thing happened. Jude preached gospel in the holy land after the death of his master and was a true believer in every sense of the word, since he was a witness to the events of the bible himself. He is said to have suffered martyrdom with his spiritual brother St. Peter, but unlike his brethren he did not pass on to Heaven; instead becoming a Saintly Vestige. He was beheaded with a halberd. Special Requirement: Jude requires a flame of any size be placed within the center of the circle used to call to his essence. Manifestation: St. Jude appears as an older man carrying a club in one hand and a halberd in another, slung over his shoulder. His head is covered in flame, but it does not seem to hurt him. He acknowledges the Saint Binder with a look of loving understanding. Sign: When bound to St. Jude, The Saint Binder’s head is covered in a wreath of flames. Influence: Never give up, never surrender- St. Jude, as patron of lost causes, will never retreat from battle or stop trying on a failed skill check. That is, if he loses he will always take 10 or take 20, even if it inconvenient to do so (though not life threateningly so). Granted Powers: When bound to Saint Jude, the binder of saints gains supernatural ability to combat the Taint of evil and proficiency in the club and halberd. Detect Taint: You can use Detect Taint as the spell at will (Caster level equal to the binder’s level, see Heroes of Horror or the SRD for more on Taint) Hide from the Tainted: As a standard action, you can become invisible to the Tainted. This ability functions like the Hide From Undead spell, but affects creatures with a taint score. Intelligent beings can ignore the effect and see you with at a DC of {10+1/2 your binder levels+ your wisdom score modifier} Celestial Damage Reduction: You gain damage reduction 10/ slashing Combat Proficiency: You gain BAB of a fighter equal to your Binder level with a halberd or club only. Note that this power does not produce either weapon. Commune: Once per day, you can Commune with Heaven and speak to a Celestial being. Purified Healing: All healing spells directed at the Binder are increased by 50%. Note that negative energy effects are not increased by a like amount.
lastknightleft 03-13-07, 06:21 PM	this might seem like a crazy over the top variant, but I'm kind of fond of eliminating divine classes as they stand and rather have the DM grant cleric class levels (sans BAB/saves bonus) throughout the game as characters become more pious, their levels are never taken away, (devil steps in to provide power) if characters act in malicious ways, but to progress they have to behave in pious devout manners. Arcane magics are hunted down by the overzealous, and considered sin, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that players couldn't hide the fact that they are spellcasters. Keep in mind christian characters wouldn't necessarily try to kill a spellcaster if they thought that he could eventually be brought to see the light, or his powers could be used to serve the greater good. anywho. That's just my variant. obviously this would be a low magic campaign.
Daosus 03-13-07, 06:35 PM	That is a very nice post, Tenadros. As an atheist (opposite end of the spectrum, so to speak) I'll add another possibility. Let's say that there is one ultimate being (God) who is the source of everything. There is also a weaker being (the devil) who is the source of evil and misery but is not in himself divine. So, now we're monotheistic. Peachy. What doesn't actually matter is which religion is correct. Sure the Christians or the Muslims may not have everything down EXACTLY right, but their priests still get spells provided they are not wicked and help others in need and generally act like standup folks. Heck, even the ebil priests probably get spells too, presumably from the devil, even if they don't recognize it. You don't need more of an explanation, because presumably, God works in mysterious ways, etc etc. Of course, this kind of setup lends itself well to dealing with religious conflict, since it helps to remove some of the black and white nature of any one religious dogma. Of course, if it's not your cup of tea (and it could very well not be, like I said, I'm an atheist, so I'm not touchy about religion) you could take one of the many other excellent suggestions presented in this thread. Finally, I'll leave with a warning. Know your players. Religion is one of those things that can be a joke one day (cake or death, anyone?), an exciting conversation on another day and a serious source of conflict between people on a third. I'd suggest thinking out the broad ideas of what you want to do, then present it to your players before going further.
Treymordin 03-13-07, 06:50 PM	I think I smell a Prestige Class. :D St. Christopher
Treymordin 03-13-07, 06:57 PM	I would not have saints giving access to spells. Catholics do not worship the saints or the Blessed Virgin Mary. That would be a gross misrepresentation of Catholicism and even the Orthodox faiths. To imply other wise is unfair to a living faith. I ran a historical game a few years back based on Midevil Europe with a paladin and his Dominican priest/friar brother. The brother had access to the Good and the Lawful domains. He could not cast resurrection or true resurrection but using raise dead was really not possible either. It was a pretty fun game. Wizards and sorcerers and druids would be considered evil as would followers of Islam and other heretical groups. There was much devil worship and demon invoking in the game, and I used some of the demon lords and arch devils from the Book of Vile Darkness to help make cults that they could go against. There were great historical setting books in 2nd edition that detailed some of the aspects of the game. I know that they had green covers. There was a book on the Glory of Rome as well as one on Charlamange's paladins. You might want to look those sources up as well.
Alpha_Moose 03-13-07, 08:07 PM	Ok, I've quoted like 3 people, so bear with me. I would not have saints giving access to spells. Catholics do not worship the saints or the Blessed Virgin Mary. That would be a gross misrepresentation of Catholicism and even the Orthodox faiths. To imply other wise is unfair to a living faith. Well, we do use the saints as intermediaries. The saints would not grant spells through their own power, but intercede though God. In game, mostly it's to have the different domains. St. Sol, the Blue Redeemer Level 1 Saintly Vestige (Binding DC 15) snip Granted Powers: Bright Concealment (The Caster is sheathed in bright blue heavenly fire. He or She is considered be under a blur spell constantly<that or 25% concealment>) Touch of Light (Cure light wounds, once every 5 rounds) Exalted Turning (saint binder can turn undead as a cleric of his level +4) For level one it's too powerful. The cure light wounds, even at higher levels, can make a cleric useless (for healing anyways). St. Jude, The Apostle (Extrapolated from Acererak) snip Granted Powers: When bound to Saint Jude, the binder of saints gains supernatural ability to combat the Taint of evil and proficiency in the club and halberd. Detect Taint: You can use Detect Taint as the spell at will (Caster level equal to the binder’s level, see Heroes of Horror or the SRD for more on Taint) Hide from the Tainted: As a standard action, you can become invisible to the Tainted. This ability functions like the Hide From Undead spell, but affects creatures with a taint score. Intelligent beings can ignore the effect and see you with at a DC of {10+1/2 your binder levels+ your wisdom score modifier} Celestial Damage Reduction: You gain damage reduction 20/ +2 Combat Proficiency: You gain BAB of a fighter equal to your Binder level with a halberd or club only. Note that this power does not produce either weapon. Commune: Once per day, you can Commune with Heaven and speak to a Celestial being. Purified Healing: All healing spells directed at the Binder are increased by 50%. Note that negative energy effects are not increased by a like amount. Change the DR to something smaller and probably a material. This one is pretty powerful, again a decently mid to high level one. As an ordained Baptist minister (let the jokes begin) who is an avid D&D player as well as midly obssessed with church history I'm a big fan of this thread. I'm also very interested in church history. Firstly you have to make some choices. Personal theological suppositions aside in a world that recognizes religion X as being legitimate must by definition decide certain things about religion Y. Let me be clearer. A Christian cannot believe that Bhuddism is correct. They believe in mutually exclusive beliefs. Either we are reincarnated or not, either we are join the great nothingness or we got to Heaven/Hell. Pick one the others got to go. So if Christianity is declared by the DM to be true, tham Islam must by definition be false. That doesn't necessarily have to be true. They could be misguided, having misinterpreted God's word or just chose to follow a different leader. I'd prefer it to be like Eberron in this sense. Of course, that's personal preference. It does leave for good crisis of faith and corrupt church officials.
TheHarrow 03-13-07, 09:00 PM	Edit: I took off Touch of Light from the Saint Sol vestige and modified the DR on St. Jude. Next up, St. Frank, and maybe St Chris....if someone doesn't get to it first... nudge..wink..nudge...
Ozzymandias 03-13-07, 10:51 PM	A friend of mine ran a short game that was very similar to what you're thinking of doing. I played an evil cleric; he was a member of the church (Roman Catholic, I believe), specifically of an obscure sect that was devoted to hunting down evil-doers and punishing them. Since it was a rare organization, I was able to bluff my way around the other PCs (for example, I couldn't spontaneously cast cure spells, which was explained by saying that I was in a strictly militaristic sect that didn't operate under the idea of healing other people). Sorry, just wanted to tell a personal character story. Let's move on... One consideration is the idea that there is only one god. Is there? I'm Christian, and I believe this to be true, but I've also found parts of the Bible that have suggested to me that, perhaps at one time, there was more than one god. Shoot, even the first commandment gives us something to work with: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Now, we can easily say that this was worded as it was because God doesn't want men worshiping anyone or anything other than Him. There really isn't other gods out there, men just think there are. But what if there are? Perhaps they aren't as powerful as the Almighty, but they could still be gods who grant spells and have followers and stuff to that effect. If there are druids (pagans?), where do they get their powers? Apologies if I'm just repeating things other people have said already. I'll look over the posts when I have the chance. Edit: Concerning the possibility of violating rules of conduct, I think everyone contributing to this thread should remember that what we should be concerned with is contributing to the concept given us by the OP. If this means that someone thinks the OP should apply alignment to a real-life deity, then the suggestion should be acceptable. I do agree, however, that it should be presented in a friendly manner, such that, hopefully, no one is offended. Just my two copper...
TheHarrow 03-13-07, 11:19 PM	St. Francis of Assisi, the Poor (Extrapolated from Geryon) A saint associated with animals and the environment, St. Francis was born to the rich but lived his life in service to the poor. Legend: St. Francis of Assisi devoted his entire life to ‘his lady poverty’. He began to preach repentance clad in a rough garment, barefoot, without any other worldly goods. His message of hope and mercy converted many into true beleivers. Called fransiscans, his followers grew exponentially during his lifteim, evolving into the order of Fransiscan monks that is still active even today. His life was a rejection of material and he practiced the virtues he preached. God so loved St. Francis that he imparted the Stigmata of the Cross upon the luminary. From then on, his fate with the Lord was sealed. Upon his uneventful death in 1226 he became a Saintly Vestige for the Binders of Saints. Two years later he was officialy cannonized in the church. Special Requirement: Saint Francis requires those who would bind his saintly vestige to not be carrying any item of material worth. He imparts a vow of poverty upon those who would use his power. They must also have at least 5 ranks in knowledge (relegion). Manifestations: St. Francis appears to Binders as a man in a ragged frock bleeding with the marks of stigmata. Over his head, doves fly in circles and remain for as long as the binding takes. Francis of Assisi locks eyes with the Binder and utters these words: “I am a servant of God and my lady poverty”. Sign: When Saint Francis is bound, the feet of the binder seem to never touch the ground, almost as if some unseen force holds him or her aloft. Influence: Under the influence of St. Francis of Assisi, no binder may harm any non-magical animal that has not attacked them first. Also, the binder is compelled to give alms to the needy. Anything from giving a beggar a spare coin to the helping of villages in peril are acts that please St. Francis greatly. Granted Abilities: This Saintly Vestige grants it’s binder power over animals and the environment, as well as bestowing powerful exalted qualities. Vow of Poverty: The binder gains the benefits of the exalted feat Vow of Poverty, found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Speak with Animals: At will the binder may talk to animals of any kind, even magical. He can be talked to as well, and might here a wolf calling out for help in a trap or the like. Celestial Immunity: The binder becomes immune to fire for as long as St. Francis remains bound. Positive Energy Aura: The binder gives off an aura of purely positive energy. Undead remaining within 10 feet of the binder receive 2d6 points of damage per round they stay inside the effect.
Treymordin 03-14-07, 10:26 AM	One consideration is the idea that there is only one god. Is there? I'm Christian, and I believe this to be true, but I've also found parts of the Bible that have suggested to me that, perhaps at one time, there was more than one god. Shoot, even the first commandment gives us something to work with: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Now, we can easily say that this was worded as it was because God doesn't want men worshiping anyone or anything other than Him. There really isn't other gods out there, men just think there are. Just my two copper... What we need to remember is that the Old Testament is very much a product of the times it was written in. The Jewish people lived in lands that were surrounded by polytheists and they have to combat that in their own faith. Look at the struggle with the Ba'als as well as the temptations within the Maccabees to become Greek and later to offer incense to the Cesars. Heck, thye plagues of Egypt were all attacks on the gods of the Egyptians trying to show that Adonai was/is more powerful than they are.
Dnjscott 03-14-07, 01:04 PM	AOne consideration is the idea that there is only one god. Is there? I'm Christian, and I believe this to be true, but I've also found parts of the Bible that have suggested to me that, perhaps at one time, there was more than one god. Shoot, even the first commandment gives us something to work with: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Now, we can easily say that this was worded as it was because God doesn't want men worshiping anyone or anything other than Him. There really isn't other gods out there, men just think there are. But what if there are? Perhaps they aren't as powerful as the Almighty, but they could still be gods who grant spells and have followers and stuff to that effect. If there are druids (pagans?), where do they get their powers? Yeah, God says in Exodus that He will be judging the gods of the Egyptians along with Pharoh. Always though that was interesting.
TheHarrow 03-14-07, 02:00 PM	Alright people, i posted three vestiges for a Binder of Saints type class. Rip 'em apart. PEACH the heck out of 'em. Leave no survivors. Please.
Dnjscott 03-14-07, 02:06 PM	Alright people, i posted three vestiges for a Binder of Saints type class. Rip 'em apart. PEACH the heck out of 'em. Leave no survivors. Please. The St. Francis of Asisi is a neat concept, but I must admit the thought of a temporary Vow of Poverty makes me wonder how it would work. Also, Celestial Immunity doesn't say what you're immune to.
Tenadros 03-14-07, 05:34 PM	I would also mention to the idea that Catholics do not "worship" the saints. In modern American Roman Catholicism this is technically true, they venerate (really, really, respect) them and the power which the saints dispense comes from God to them, to us. However, what we are discussing is a medieval concept of the Saints. While the concept o fthe power coming from God through them is still valid, the medieval church had a much more difficult time seperating worship and veneration than does the modern american church. Also look at some of the Marionite sects in South America and you see what much of the medieval worship may have been like. Note though what many have said that you must be very careful about this issue. If you have very devout protestants in your group they may have some knee jerk reactions to Catholicism. If you have devout Catholics in your group they may get more than a little ticked when the Pope turns out to be the BBEG/arch-diabolist. Common sense of course requires you to know your players and respect them. However, also keep in mind that for D&D terms kneeling in a church, lighting a candle to St. Genevieve, and praying for her blessing in battle, is the same thing as what the average Cleric to Pelor does. Just make sure you know your players enough to give them the terms that make them sleep well at night.:D
sciborg2 03-14-07, 08:24 PM	I think its interesting that deep cosmological questions crop up when discussing a Christian setting -- as opposed to Norse or Egyptian settings. Really, its more important to set up the world where the players will be playing. That's what a setting is after all. All this other stuff is going to do little to figure out what its like to be a PC.
Alpha_Moose 03-14-07, 09:53 PM	I've been wondering, what about the angels? Should the normal angels from the MM be used? The archangels could be given divine rank (for power reasons). Granted, that doesn't matter unless the PCs get to a high level. Even though this would be a primarily religion-based game, don't forget about the kings and other non-religious rulers. If the time frame is far enough back you could deal with the Romans. Make it more of an Arthur (the movie) type game.
sciborg2 03-14-07, 11:38 PM	Talk around the troll yo. TheHarrow - liked the vestige. I was thinking it might be interesting to have a paranoid world where the primary conflict is between good and evil binders. Forces such as the Inquisition are *trying* to do good, much as the Silver Flame attempted, but cannot/will-not distinguish between good and evil binders. They figure that eliminating all binders will free humanity from the supernatural influence and live as (they think) God intended. Evil binders hope that Satan/Ahriman/whatever will reward them when those outsiders conquer the world. As for devils surviving God's judgement, perhaps they can seal the world and keep God from stopping them - though this seriously shifts what is meant by a "Christian" game, but hopefully y'all know I'm just talking about in game not RL. I recognize the above would mean in game NPC/PC "Christians" binding saints would be seen as evil by the overarching "Christian" church. Which might be interesting as the general populace might fear binders but if your village was saved by a good binder, or you (a PC) have a sibling who is a binder, you might be more tolerant/supportive of them. It makes things Good Main Church (w/ zealots) Vs Good (binders of celestials/saints) Vs Evil (binders/conjurers)
TheHarrow 03-15-07, 06:13 AM	You cannot bend the troll, that would be impossible. Instead, recognize that there is no troll edit: fixed francis
WizO_Sith 03-15-07, 09:33 AM	Sorry folks, but this thread has to be locked. I applaud everyone who tried to keep the discussion on-topic and within the (admittedly very narrow) room we allow for discussion of topics like this. Sadly however, there are some topics that - no matter how hard folks try - are going to generate problems. Real world religion is one of those topics (politics is usually recognized as the other). Which is why we generally don't allow discussion of either of them on these forums. This thread will be locked, please do not restart it or other threads on this topic. *Click*