Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 04-13-07, 11:36 AM	I hate that the Far Realm has become the ultra-evil realm! I'm sorry, are nine hells of burning souls not evil enough? Are three endless plains of soul-numbing greyscape not evil enough? Not even an uncountable number of cursed chaos-scapes? It isn't enough that the denizens of these planes provide an endless variety of filthy, retched, malicious, scheming, 99% irredeemable fiends who have the evil subtype? We really need an even more ULTRA-EVIL REALM? Honestly, how is a DM supposed to explain that a realm is more evil than the realms where murderers, rapists, genocidal maniacs and politicians go when they die? No, really, I'd love to hear the explanation! Now, I'm not often nostalgic about second edition, but I remember my introduction to the Far Realm back when I discovered planescape. Maybe I didn't read all the first references to the Far Realm, or maybe I just blanked them out, but I remember when for me at least the Far Realm was just bizarre. And what's wrong with bizarre? Oh, I suppose that once the Far Realm became part of standard D&D it suddenly had to conform to the archetypal "Bizzare = Evil" standard, even at the cost of internal consistency. I say, to the Abyss with "ultra-evil"! If I need a realm devoted to evil and insanity in my game, I'll just label another layer of the Abyss because THAT is the realm of evil and insanity. If I need a certain breed of aberrations to have a defined origin, I'll put such a place in Baator with the devils because THEY are the epitome of cunning, diabolics, arrogance and evil. In my game, the Far Realm will always be bizzare. PERIOD. That feels better, TS
sciborg2 04-13-07, 12:43 PM	A lot of us actually agree with you, though note that even in standard D&D iirc the Far Realm is supposed to be unaligned, or even "beyond alignment" whatever that means. The idea is that we see the evils of the Far Realm more often because they want to invade or maybe even just escape something happening in their own realm. As all the planes are kinda metaphors/archetypes, I figure the Far Realm represents the Other that only at the border has resemblance to the Self. This mental fear of that vast foreigness manifests itself as alien invaders that become a part of us (like illithids or those alien puppeteers) or beings that predate us like the aboleths. As the enlightened soul moves closer to the a reconciliation with the Other, it begins to realize that despite its initial feelings it its connected with all things in the Multiverse. At this point, the hidden form (or perhaps the transcendence of form) of the Far Realm's monsters is revealed. "You already stand in the midst of this great beauty. Only your eyes deceive you."--Attanasio
Return of the Flumph 04-13-07, 02:18 PM	The Far Realms are not evil at all. Just different. When beings from the Far Realms enter the standard cosmology, they usually behave amoraly because they have no concept of morality. They are labelled as "evil" because in the DnD cosmology, the actions they often take are evil; they are unable to understand this, because good and evil are inherently alien to them. If you don't have anything the Realmspawn want, it is extremely unlikely they will cause you any trouble. Most of them have no interest in our universe, coming here only by accident and then trying to escape. Some see this universe as a source of valuable resources or food, and these are more dangerous. They are not anywhere near as bad as the fiends; their evil is pragmatism, not malice.
Khael 04-13-07, 02:45 PM	Theres a WH40K quote that kinda explains this: "The more I know about this foe, the more I know what drives them, the more I come to hate them. I hate them not because of what they are, or what they will come to do, I hate them simply because they hate without good old human hatred" Badly mangled but fairly to the point: The far-realm isn't evil, its subscribes to a totally different morality. You have demons, devil, 'loths etc., but they are still driven of mortal feelings, mortals can come to understand to a degree, those mindset. They can never comprehend the far-realms mindset, because those minds are a totally different range of feelings.
lint trap 04-13-07, 05:00 PM	I don't think that the Far Realm is so much an "evil" factor as an "unbalancing" factor. Remember, however bad the Baator may be, it's still part of the scheme of things. The Far Realm is much more dangerous because it's utterly foreign to the traditional multiverse, and there's no natural counterpoint to oppose or mitigate it.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-13-07, 06:26 PM	The Far Realm, I think, can be warped by both thought and can not. The entities there are the ultimate foreigners to Great Wheel residents, and innate xenophobia makes them seem scarier and more evil, if they're not actually altered by the thought.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-13-07, 07:41 PM	Lately, I've seen a few posts about "the far realm: a place so evil that fiends fear to tread". Such inconsistencies just tick me off. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "the Far Realm & denizens are outside of alignment" idea, but it doesn't bug me as much as the former.
ArcTan 04-13-07, 08:02 PM	I don't think that the Far Realm is so much an "evil" factor as an "unbalancing" factor. Remember, however bad the Baator may be, it's still part of the scheme of things. The Far Realm is much more dangerous because it's utterly foreign to the traditional multiverse, and there's no natural counterpoint to oppose or mitigate it. More like the entire traditional multiverse is the natural counterpoint.
Khael 04-13-07, 08:32 PM	Lately, I've seen a few posts about "the far realm: a place so evil that fiends fear to tread". Such inconsistencies just tick me off. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "the Far Realm & denizens are outside of alignment" idea, but it doesn't bug me as much as the former. Good and evil is a totally relative term. Fiends in D&D are generally born from the souls of mortals pulled though the plane, right? They are therefore born from mortal evils, they are mortal evil incarnate. The farrealms have no such connection, so what to them is the purest good, is to us foulest evil, and vice versa. Therefore, because fiends have this link to mortal feeling and farrealm-beasties don't, they'll be as scared as heck by the farrealms, like a mortal, because a fiend is like a nightmare, the farrealm couldn't be imagined enough to produce the tiniest nightmare from. In other words morally, 'normal' D&D worlds and the farrealms are not so much talking another language, as talking to each each other with differing alphabet, differing methods of communication and neither trust the other not to try and kill them by crossing their legs/psuedopods.
aushlo 04-13-07, 08:36 PM	It's what you make it, man. Until there's a complete sourcebook on it, who knows? It's very possible that there are beings closer to our concept of goodness out there in the depths of the Far Realm, but the ones that tend to bleed over are the ones that are more aggressive. In your campaign, there's no reason not to have some mad wizard (or alienist) finally figure out how to actually communicate in a meaningful way with the things. Maybe the presence of logically formed, prime-material or great wheel inhabitants is physically painful or causes bizarre neurological feedback. Maybe they take on a horrific aspect because that's the only shape the Great Wheel/Primer brain can fix them in. You're right, there's no need for the ultra-super evil unknowable horrors beyond what we have (Obyriths? Hello?). So change it to your liking. Too many people let the books dictate their game. If you don't like it, throw out what sucks. Use what's left.
Return of the Flumph 04-13-07, 10:39 PM	Lately, I've seen a few posts about "the far realm: a place so evil that fiends fear to tread". Such inconsistencies just tick me off. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "the Far Realm & denizens are outside of alignment" idea, but it doesn't bug me as much as the former. The fiends fear to enter the Far Realms, but not because it is "evil" per se. It is simply a very inhospitable environment, and creatures from the Great Wheel are quickly destroyed, maddened, or horribly mutated as their bodies struggle to exist in a dimension that should not allow them to. Furthermore, some Far Realms entities are territorial, and likely to be hostile to intruders on their turf. I think "outside alignment" works for them as long as they stay in the Far Realm. Once they enter the Great Wheel, however, they are forced into the moral and ethical axises just like the natives.
sciborg2 04-14-07, 12:45 AM	My problem would be that nothing we've seen of the Far Realm falls outside the alignment system.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-14-07, 12:46 AM	Too many people let the books dictate their game. If you don't like it, throw out what sucks. Amen to that! Sometimes I get sick when I read all these posts written by gamers who take published material for gospel, not realizing that in fact they are just spouting one of many interpretations and creative paths that a game may take.
Rickiel 04-14-07, 01:02 AM	I personally, am waiting for the day when I see a good aligned entity from the Far Realm. It'd be nice to have a chat about those wacky brain-eating types! I agree with Flumph, the fiends don't so much think of the Far Realms as more evil, they're essentially Paragons of evil after all, so much as they know that the place is absolutely inhospitable to them. A running theme I've seen, repeated over and OVER, however, is that things from the Far Realm are apparantly superior to almost anything from the 'normal' multiverse! Seriously, I've not once seen/heard of a visiting entity suffering much from the exposure to a mere 25 dimensions...what? 3 dimensions? You're kidding me right? Moving along... Far Realm entities tend to become parasitic and adapt rather readily to their new environment even as they look for a way back. We have seen this adaptation from the Illithids after all. If someone believes these creatures to be 'beyond alignment', then let's attribute their newfound alignment with the idea that they've 'adapted' in at least one aspect. Do they have the same system of morals and ethics? Of course not. Then again I'm rather certain that the ethics and morals of fiends differ rather radically from celestials. It is not so much that alignment is forced upon them, but that certain alignments 'accept' them. And to the dismay of most normal beings, this alignment tends towards Chaotic Evil.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-14-07, 02:52 AM	The fiends fear to enter the Far Realms, but not because it is "evil" per se. It is simply a very inhospitable environment, and creatures from the Great Wheel are quickly destroyed, maddened, or horribly mutated as their bodies struggle to exist in a dimension that should not allow them to. Furthermore, some Far Realms entities are territorial, and likely to be hostile to intruders on their turf. What I'd adore to see would be an adventure where PCs end up working on behalf of the far realms entity Bolothamog* to stop (from their end) an intrusion into the Far Realm by an Abyssal Lord. Imagine the forces of Pale Night or Demogorgon spilling over into virgin territory, a place of abberant reality but one entirely naive to the infinite horrors of the Abyss. We've seen natives of the Abyss manage to colonize and adapt to places like the quasielemental plane of vacuum, but take that up another notch and have them infect another multiverse entirely, becoming like a virus in another reality. * Bolothomog is arguable neutral or even good based on its motivations to keep the Far Realm and Great Wheel from interacting, apparently out of self-preservation on his end.
ArcTan 04-14-07, 03:52 AM	I'm a fan of Eberron's depiction of Xoriat (essentially the Far Realm) and "Madness" in general as NE, rather than the annoying "no alignment" thing we keep hearing about the Far Realm, despite the fact that it sure sounds Evil to me (at least).
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-14-07, 09:09 AM	It's difficult to catagorize these beings as 'outside alignment', since noone has much of an idea what actions can't be defined by ethics or morals. Far Realm entities tend to become parasitic and adapt rather readily to their new environment even as they look for a way back. We have seen this adaptation from the Illithids after all. If someone believes these creatures to be 'beyond alignment', then let's attribute their newfound alignment with the idea that they've 'adapted' in at least one aspect. Before, you said they've never been harmed by exposure to our four dimensions. The parsitic adaptation is probably forced, as some aspects of their being would be incompatible in the Great Wheel, or resulting in incapitation.
Khael 04-14-07, 09:26 AM	I personally, am waiting for the day when I see a good aligned entity from the Far Realm. It'd be nice to have a chat about those wacky brain-eating types! Seriously, I've not once seen/heard of a visiting entity suffering much from the exposure to a mere 25 dimensions...what? 3 dimensions? You're kidding me right? Moving along... Far Realm entities tend to become parasitic and adapt rather readily to their new environment even as they look for a way back. We have seen this adaptation from the Illithids after all. If someone believes these creatures to be 'beyond alignment', then let's attribute their newfound alignment with the idea that they've 'adapted' in at least one aspect. It is not so much that alignment is forced upon them, but that certain alignments 'accept' them. And to the dismay of most normal beings, this alignment tends towards Chaotic Evil. Before, you said they've never been harmed by exposure to our four dimensions. The parsitic adaptation is probably forced, as some aspects of their being would be incompatible in the Great Wheel, or resulting in incapitation. Theres an idea... Their not so evil etc. Their just seriosuly PO'd at either: 1)Being forced into this restricting lack of dimensions/environment (What if you're used to being 3D and suddenly you're a 2D flat-board, you wouldn't be annoyed/frightened?) 2) They can see us/(or people in D&D world if you prefer) in their over-3D view. And you just told Bob the farspawn (in 6D mind you) 'his mother is a X, his father a Y, Grandma...etc. Or failing that, thy're trying to get peoples attention. The fact they're talking on dimension G... means to them 3Ders are the rudest, most superior ***** to walk the dimensions. I suddenly laugh at this idea of why mindflayers want to eat human brains: "What? On 5D, you keep yelling out how nutritious you are, is it my fault I like healthy eating?" Or of course they want our brain since we're clearly incapable of proper thought, ignoring questions on D7. To them talking to a human is probably like us going 'moo' at a cow - Do it right you probably get the basic stuff across, but the cow lacks the ability to comunicate in any understandable detailed way to us..
Rickiel 04-14-07, 12:13 PM	For some reason, I'm reminded of the Playstation 2 game Wild Arms 3. Or for those of you in Japan, Wild Arms 3rd Advance. Anyways, in the game, one of the antagonists that exists behind the scenes (literally, you can find her throughout most of the game but can never get quite close enough to interact with her) until she sets into motion her final plans. This villain is an entity of the 25th dimension, a dimension of dreams and/or electrical signals and pulses. She couldn't act in any meaningful way with our own reality on her own, so she manipulated dreams of certain individuals as well as messed with electronic equipment. Her means were complex and horrid while her desire was simple. She wanted a world of her own. Entities from the Far Realm seem to be much like her, in my mind at least. If they have the intelligence they can weave elaborate plots to achieve what desires they have. Those desires can be frighteningly simplistic. Can you imagine a 100-tentacled, 17 eyeballed, 32 legged, 1 winged, and 8 headed entity with a tongue that's basically a leech-esque vacuum cleaner; looking for love? Why, it can double as an Alienists motive! "Okay, it's time for me to begin a multi-dimensional dating service. If I can't get one myself than I shall get one for the unmentionable horrors from beyond!"
Khael 04-14-07, 12:23 PM	That idea is even better than anything I just made... It's not evil, not angry etc., it just wants to be loved?! Scarily, I suddenly get flashes of HTR monsters...
Rickiel 04-14-07, 12:29 PM	HTR? Htr...htr..... Somehow, I get the gut feeling I REALLY don't want to know. I was just suggesting that the Far Realm entities may have surprisingly simplistic motivations for why they cross the nothing/something and into the Great Wheel.
Khael 04-14-07, 12:36 PM	I'll say the first letter stands for Hentai, the second can be found in your description of the 'vacuum cleaner', and leave it at that. And I can fully understand the simple motivations idea, its a good one (But then I doubt anyone thought the words 'I Am Evil Bwhahaha' were ever a reason.)
sciborg2 04-14-07, 12:39 PM	Thing is even if they see us as cows, we've crossed the threshold of sentience. In D&D, sentience is the boundary at which killing it can be construed as wrong. Perhaps some Far Realm creatures like the brain collector don't realize we're sentient. But mindflayers should know enough about us to know better. Even then not being evil doesn't mean you're not some kind of neutral. You can't really be "beyond alignment", a silly marketing tag to me...
Khael 04-14-07, 12:42 PM	Thing is even if they see us as cows, we've crossed the threshold of sentience. In D&D, sentience is the boundary at which killing it can be construed as wrong. Perhaps some Far Realm creatures like the brain collector don't realize we're sentient. Or by their standard we're not sentient. Such things are still relative. For all humans in D&D know, the far-realmers might consider a cow to be a fine after-dinner-speaker and humans are thoughtless brutes, whose crude calls can be replicated by some, but tis still gibberish, while the cow is a creature capable of speaking on another non-physical level. Hell, for all we know the far-realmers have agents in the form of mice running the D&D worlds, since the native clearly lack the intelligence to do it themselves. What mortals take for sentience is messages sent by the 'mice' to tell them what to do.
Rickiel 04-14-07, 12:53 PM	It's important to note that not all illithids hold to the norms of how a mindflayer thinks and acts. A few mindflayers retain a sliver, a sliver mind you :rimshot:, of the hosts personality. They understand that these strange and aberrant ideas and quirks are not to be tolerated amongst their 'enlightened' kind. How desperate must a mindflayer be when the hosts personality valiantly attempts to reassert itself that the illithid actually runs to the lesser beings for solace from its own kind. I forget, do mindflayers have the Always or Usually Evil bit going on? And I wonder what happens to a mindflayer when they attempt to traverse the Far Realm. Since a part of them was once, long ago, originated from the Far Realm whereas their host is from normal reality... Hmmm... Excuse me, I gotta find the Illithiad now.
Demon_Paladin 04-14-07, 01:02 PM	I think the whole Far Realm being worse than the lower planes come from the desire to include Lovecraftian creatures in the cosmology.
Bob the Efreet 04-14-07, 02:36 PM	I think the whole Far Realm being worse than the lower planes come from the desire to include Lovecraftian creatures in the cosmology. I was musing that the far realm=evil conceit might be a holdover from Lovecraft, where basically any being from Outside is a terrible evil.
Return of the Flumph 04-14-07, 03:17 PM	Not all of Lovecraft's thingies were evil either; just vastly superior. To them, killing a human is like stepping on an ant. However, in DnD where sentience starts at a certain, unrelative point and good and evil are objective, such beings would be evil, so Lovecraft's vision is not compatible with the Great Wheel. Moving on, I'm a big fan of the Far Realms and often include elements of it in my campaigns. Most Far Realm beasts are not evil, and some could be considered "good" in the context of the Great Wheel's alignment system. However, these ones are less likely to enter our universe, because they have no motivation for doing so. Here are a few ways I've handled Far Realms critters: 1. Parasites. Some Far Realms beings are like disease organisms that see the Great Wheel as a host. They come in, they eat the local creatures, they screw up the laws of physics, they proliferate, and then-once the universe is totally ruined-they plan to leave the corpse to seek out other cosmologies to infect. These ones are evil, and include the Grell, Brain Collectors, and Beholders. 2. Victims. Sometimes, Far Realms entities are trapped in the Great Wheel either by accident, or by malice (ex: a derranged alienist). Such creatures are preoccupied with returning to the Far Realm, but have the most difficulty in surviving in our world (most of them die upon entering the Wheel). If the PCs can find a way to communicate with these beings, they might be willing to aid the PCs in exchange for helping them escape the Wheel. 3. Aboleths. The aboleths are somewhat unique in that theirs is a case of accidental parasitism. Not normally parasitic creatures, the aboleths were trapped when the Great Wheel was literally built on top of them. Most aberrations trapped in this way by the creation of the universe either died or escaped, but the aboleth were mutated by the new 3D laws that made escape impossible for them. Since then, the aboleth have hid in the center of the earth, gazing with hatred upon the creatures who they see as responsible for their damnation.
sciborg2 04-14-07, 03:24 PM	However, in DnD where sentience starts at a certain, unrelative point and good and evil are objective, such beings would be evil, so Lovecraft's vision is not compatible with the Great Wheel. Thank you for putting it better than I did! Also, like your take on the Forgotten...I mean Far Realms...sometimes its hard to tell the difference. ;)
Illithid_Tentacles 04-14-07, 04:37 PM	I was musing that the far realm=evil conceit might be a holdover from Lovecraft, where basically any being from Outside is a terrible evil. Actually, that's not entirely correct. At The Mountains of Madness is one example. The protaganist is sent with an expidition team to Antarctica, where they discover ruins of an enormous, elaborate alien city, and a few bodies, among other things. While the bodies of the aliens are VERY different form human bodies, and for the most part, anything else on Earth (except deep-sea creatures, of course), the protaganist felt a pang of sympathy and kinship with them- he realized that they were scientists, engineers, just trying to survive. They were men. Despite this, towards the end of the story, one of his companions has a run-in with one of the survivors (as I recall, it's a survivor of an artificial cattle/workhorse species, but that might be wrong), and the experience drives him mad. As others have said, the denizens of the Far Realm and the Great Wheel simply cannot co-exist. It would be like two individuals, one from the plane of Fire, and one from the plane of Water, suddenly switching places- both are suddenly in an extremely hostile environment, but before that, they were fine. When exposed to the other's world, then things start to get bad for them. Depending on how powerful the individuals are, they might cause a great deal of damage or disturbance in the other's plane before dying, or, more likely, being killed by the natives. As I see it, that's basically what happens when a native of the Far Realm happens it's way into the Great Wheel- it's suddenly in a dimension where it was never meant to exist, and it's most likely going to be either seriously ****** off, or in a supreme amount of pain. Could you really blame it for reacting negatively?
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 05:31 PM	I see the far realm as being relatively uninterested in the mundane realities. If some of their people get stuck in our reality, they'll cause a lot of havoc because they're powerful and don't understand our world. If we get stuck in their reality we'll die because they're powerful and we don't understand them. However 99.99% of the time our worlds are seperate and never meet.
mythSSK 04-14-07, 07:20 PM	I see a lot of mentions of illithid as an example of the far realms being evil. Just wanted to remind that they aren't actually from the far realm. They were mutated by it, sure, but they are originally from the future. I like Return of the Flumph's little outline, personally.
Return of the Flumph 04-14-07, 07:36 PM	I see a lot of mentions of illithid as an example of the far realms being evil. Just wanted to remind that they aren't actually from the far realm. They were mutated by it, sure, but they are originally from the future. I like Return of the Flumph's little outline, personally. Thank you. About mind flayers; the way I have it, mind flayers are the result of a small group of future aboleths who decided to artificially alter themselves to become better suited for life in the Prime Material. The other aboleth saw them as heretics and traitors, but they managed to survive their hostilities. When the universe finally did end, the "true" aboleths either died or returned to the Far Realms (either way they became better off), and the illithids-who had come to love this world-journeyed back in time.
mythSSK 04-14-07, 08:01 PM	About mind flayers; the way I have it, mind flayers are the result of a small group of future aboleths who decided to artificially alter themselves to become better suited for life in the Prime Material. The other aboleth saw them as heretics and traitors, but they managed to survive their hostilities. When the universe finally did end, the "true" aboleths either died or returned to the Far Realms (either way they became better off), and the illithids-who had come to love this world-journeyed back in time.That's an interesting take on it, and one I hadn't heard before. Of course, it does have certain small inconsistencies, but maybe I'm just nitpicky because I prefer the theory that prior to their travel back in time and mutation by the far realm, the illithid were the final stage of human evolution.
Keenath 04-14-07, 08:49 PM	The far realm isn't evil, it's just that its nature and everything in it is destructive to Great Wheel life. Is a fire evil for burning people who get too close? Is darkness evil for removing sight? Is gravity evil for killing those who fall a long way? The Far Realms aren't evil, they're just (pseudo-) naturally inimical to known forms of life. As mentioned before, lots of far realm creatures are marked "evil" because they want to invade this dimension and make it more farrealmsy -- which is naturally contrary to the good of the current inhabitants. Harming innocents to get what you want is evil, thus the invaders are marked as evil.
TheCrawlingSpleen 04-14-07, 08:49 PM	I don't own all the books, and my experience with D&D before 3rd edition was restricted to the three core rulebooks. That said, my impression of the Far Realm is that it is not inherently evil, but it is hostile and frightening. The realm represents what lies outside the multiverse, and compounding that horror is the terrible realization that something lives out there. I prefer not to think about it much more than that. Anyone who thinks of the Far Realm as evil (and I did at one point) needs to remember that a creature doesn't have to be evil to be hostile. Lovecraft's menacing entities weren't always evil; they were alien (frighteningly so) and dangerous. In At the Mountains of Madness, for example, the elder things were not necessarily evil, but they did kill and disect human beings, and not necessarily in that order. I realize I have told you absolutely nothing new, and I'm sorry about that. I just figured I'd throw in my :twocents:. You want madness and/or cosmic horror, look to the Far Realm. For evil, to the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and Hades (and Carceria, Gehenna, etc.). And of course, for evil and madness, send in the obyriths, baby! :devil:
Return of the Flumph 04-14-07, 09:11 PM	Lovecraft's menacing entities weren't always evil; they were alien (frighteningly so) and dangerous. In At the Mountains of Madness, for example, the elder things were not necessarily evil, but they did kill and disect human beings, and not necessarily in that order. In all fairness, the humans killed and dissected one of them first.
TheCrawlingSpleen 04-14-07, 11:02 PM	The humans thought that the specimen they dissected was dead, while the dissected human was probably alive when the elder things found him. My point is that you don't have to be bad to be the bad guy in a given situation. While D&D is open to black and white moral issues, it doesn't exclude shades of gray. You can empathize with your alien opponent all you want, taking pains to understand why it's trying to kill you, but that doesn't change the fact that it is trying to kill you.
turalisj 04-14-07, 11:20 PM	D&d is 49% Black, 49% White, 2% Grey. In one game I was in, the party's paladin tried to kill my gnome sorcerer for playing a simple prank on him. Ok, so he made the paladin's skin pink and his armor rainbow colored, but still....
Return of the Flumph 04-15-07, 12:07 AM	The humans thought that the specimen they dissected was dead, while the dissected human was probably alive when the elder things found him. My point is that you don't have to be bad to be the bad guy in a given situation. While D&D is open to black and white moral issues, it doesn't exclude shades of gray. You can empathize with your alien opponent all you want, taking pains to understand why it's trying to kill you, but that doesn't change the fact that it is trying to kill you. The Elder Things didn't know that it was accidental. They just woke up and immediately saw the mutilated corpse of one of their brethren and a human standing there with a knife. What were they supposed to think?
TheCrawlingSpleen 04-15-07, 01:36 AM	Okay, first off: D&d is 49% Black, 49% White, 2% Grey. In one game I was in, the party's paladin tried to kill my gnome sorcerer for playing a simple prank on him. Ok, so he made the paladin's skin pink and his armor rainbow colored, but still.... That doesn't sound like an ethics issue so much as an example of a paladin overreacting. And second: back to the At the Mountains of Madness murder trial. The Elder Things had been hibernating. Given their scientific expertise, they probably knew that their lifesigns slowed to nearly nil while they were in their deep sleep. Maybe they saw the humans as murderers, maybe they understood the mistake, or maybe they just thought the primates were taking apart (and thereby mutilating) a dead body. We aren't given any details as to the thoughts of the aliens. It is possible that they killed to avenge a fallen friend (they did bury their dead afterwards) that they acted out of a sense of anger over the humans violating their dead, or that they were curious about humans (they may not have seen people before) and decided to take one apart. Either way, the Elder Things deliberately killed humans, for whatever reasons. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that creatures need not be evil to be hostile to you. PS. My personal thought is that the Elder Things understood what the humans were doing, but that they still became angry over seeing their comrade's body violated, and acted out of anger. I realize that the evidence Lovecraft gives the reader isn't enough to suggest this over any other option; it was just my gut feeling.
daggeroflath 04-15-07, 08:03 AM	When you're a Great Old One, wandering carbon-based primates hardly count as alive. Look at them, they're just interacting clouds of carbon molecules. "Eewww, Mommy they only exist in 4 dimensions!" "I know, it disgusts me too. Try to ignore them." Ia Ia Cthulu Ftaghn.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-15-07, 11:58 AM	When I DM all monsters have alignments. Period. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Far Realms and Philosophies. Alright, if I were ever to run a game that did away with alignment completely, that would be different...
malykoth 04-15-07, 02:31 PM	In one game I was in, the party's paladin tried to kill my gnome sorcerer for playing a simple prank on him. Ok, so he made the paladin's skin pink and his armor rainbow colored, but still.... Uh...was this done as a pseudo-joke between you and the other player, or did the paladin really try to kill your gnome? If so, that paladin should have fallen quicker than a drunk in a room full of banana peels. Talk about over-reacting! Back to the matter at hand. I'm in total agreement with those who have pointed out that the Far Realms aren't evil, just too alien to understand us. The end result appears evil to us. I'll add another analogy... Lets say you find a few ants in your kitchen. Most people would attempt to kill them, then plan the destruction of the nest, either by buying bug-poison, ant-traps, etc., or calling an exterminator. To the ants, you'd be an apocolyptic entity of destruction (if they could comprehend, that is)...but you wouldn't be evil, right? Now, replace "you" with "Far Realm entity", "ant" with "human", "kitchen" with "plane", "nest" with "world", and "poison" with...well...whatever they'd use to bring an apocolypse. Of course...the same could be said of other so-called evil creatures and entities. The opposite side of the battle will often appear evil when only one side can survive the combat, regardless of their intentions.
sciborg2 04-15-07, 02:54 PM	In D&D intentions are only part of the determinaton of alignment. Results are the chief determination. Someone who commits genocide believing they are doing good is still evil regardless of whatever utopia they think they are creating. I'm willing to accept that some creatures are not capable of realizing we're sentient as they understand it - in their experience sentience means something different. Even then they are bound by an alignment if only N.
turalisj 04-15-07, 07:51 PM	Uh...was this done as a pseudo-joke between you and the other player, or did the paladin really try to kill your gnome? If so, that paladin should have fallen quicker than a drunk in a room full of banana peels. Talk about over-reacting! Wasn't a joke. And I was the one who got the boot, merely because the pally was the DM's brother.....
malykoth 04-16-07, 12:32 AM	Wasn't a joke. And I was the one who got the boot, merely because the pally was the DM's brother..... Well...sounds like you're better off, then. I'd tell you what I think of that behavior, but I'm sure my response would be heavily censored. Who needs those kind of people...:mad:
Return of the Flumph 04-16-07, 12:38 AM	Who needs those kind of people... The Far Realms have myriad uses for them.
CryoSilver 04-16-07, 01:05 AM	Well, the Far Realsm supposedly being beyond the ken of the sane mind, I don't use them too much, since they, by definition, unblanace the game. When I need to use them though, I try to imagine the world as though I'm tripping on acid; I've talked to a few buddies who were on shrooms or robotripping, so I just try to actualize their ramblings. It gets the point across.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 03:56 PM	When I need to use them though, I try to imagine the world as though I'm tripping on acid I play six dimensional naughts and crosses for a while, it gets your head into the right frame of mind.