Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZiggZagg 09-10-07, 08:57 PM	A group of us just got done creating 40th level gestalt characters, and one of us has decided he wants to go for Vecna. With that stat block currently in circulation right now, would we stand a chance, would he stand a chance, or should I redo him as a LvL 40 gestalt Wiz/Cleric?
Johngalt137 09-10-07, 10:40 PM	A group of us just got done creating 40th level gestalt characters, and one of us has decided he wants to go for Vecna. With that stat block currently in circulation right now, would we stand a chance, would he stand a chance, or should I redo him as a LvL 40 gestalt Wiz/Cleric? You could use the dicefreaks Vecna, because the Vecna from Deities and Demigods would stand no chance against a group of level 40 gestalts.
ZiggZagg 09-11-07, 12:21 AM	Is the one from Dice Freaks as powerful as the rest of their stuff. From what I have seen at that site, I am not very crazy about. But that is just me. If you think he should be retooled, then I will just make him level 40 gestalt as well
SilentOne 09-11-07, 12:40 AM	*blinks* Wait, you actually stand more than no chance against the god of death? Doesn't he have an ability where he simply designates any number of mortals and, poof, they're dead, no save? I'd believe that the "and penetrates any barrier other than a divine shield" would cause it to rip right through a death ward and kill you anyway. Plus, due to his portfolio (death), he'd know you were coming long ahead of time, and just kill you before the thought even entered your head if he believed there was any chance of him losing. Unless you've got significant divine help of your own (equal or greater rank, I forget Vecna's), you're toast.
Triyu 09-11-07, 09:52 AM	Be sure to take his head when your done with him. ;) :D
Lobsopdoy 09-11-07, 02:28 PM	Did Dicefreaks ever do a Vecna conversion?
ripvanwormer 09-11-07, 02:58 PM	*blinks* Wait, you actually stand more than no chance against the god of death? Nerull's the god of death. Vecna's the god of secrets.
Kamin_Majere 09-11-07, 03:11 PM	Is the one from Dice Freaks as powerful as the rest of their stuff. From what I have seen at that site, I am not very crazy about. But that is just me. If you think he should be retooled, then I will just make him level 40 gestalt as well You want the god of Secrets, the one that was so woven into the fabric of existance that to defeat him caused the entire multiverse to change (caused AD&D to become 3.X ;) ), the one that even as a mortal the gods rightly feared... ... to be a push over? I would suggest a complete retool as well. And if Dice Freaks have a version of Vecna, then use that one. Gods arent supposed to be push overs simply because your a 40th level mortal. If that was the case Larloch from the forgotten realms would have started killing them for the ancient magic.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 04:24 PM	Well, you can't kill Vecna, because I already ripped him apart and consumed his soul. I'm also wearing his skull on my face. Um, I guess I could bring him back for you. Y'know, for kicks. But really, hes not gonna be much of a challenge for a party of epic gestalts. I'd really suggest rebuilding him or using the Dicefreaks version. Also, be sure to base his Divine Shield on his Charisma and not on his Constitution. I tore through those patheticly weak shields in only a round, and gestalts will do it faster.
ZiggZagg 09-11-07, 04:32 PM	I don't want him to be a pushover at all. I want him to beat the hell out of us. Dice Freaks has a version of him that I guess I could just use and add a gestalt build into that so that it is even. After all, gestalt campaign are supposed to have gestalt villains...and I would definitely call him a bit of a villain.
Kihon 09-11-07, 04:34 PM	Once again R.S. kills the unkillable... Not with anyone worth their salt DM'ing would you ever kill the God of Secrets!
ZiggZagg 09-11-07, 04:38 PM	I personally don't believe that Gods should die. But we just built these 40 gestalts, and my one friend is just dying to take a crack at a God. And since Vecna is about the weakest one, DR wise, and he was an ascended deity, I said I would try to run it. So the task has fallen to me to make a mini campaign in which we go after Vecna...joy joy
Kihon 09-11-07, 04:57 PM	ZZ - of all the gods you could pick, vecna - the God of Secrets - the God that single handedly did what no other power in the universe could do - he broke out of the mist lands (dreadlands), he powered his way into Sigil (and stood against the Lady of Pain) and after he was ejected out he still landed as an intermediate diety. The being that can call on the 'dragon' and use magic in a way no other being in the universe can (even other dieties). So you're group wants to fight a being that knows what? Let's see - god of magic & secrets - every epic spell, and all your character's secrets since he would have forseen them coming long ago. I'd have the characters fighting against their mind dominate families before they could even get close. Have that fight slaughter mom (and then roll a will save to keep from going insane). Then I'd have the countless undead that Vecna keeps around, along with an undead Collosas or two, not to mention the demons I'm sure he'd be summoning in. You really can't catch the Lord of Secrets with his pants down you know. Other powers - maybe, but if you think you can summon him with say an epic ritual - well you can't, because he's allowed to break the laws of magic. If your group came after me I'd just summon up a time elemental and have them go back in time to when you were all infants and kill you then, or have it show up when you decided to kill 'vecna' and change all your minds to some other god. In fact you might get Vecna's help if he changed your mind to say St. Cuthbert or some other goodie goodie. Gods of Secrets, Magic, Death and such are just not good ones to take a crack at (imho), but enjoy - your game. If I DM'd it the players would probably not like it, after all what god actually will stand and fight fairly? Come to my realm where I control reality itself :)
ZiggZagg 09-11-07, 05:07 PM	Trust me, I realize all this. I didn't know the first part, just because I don't know much about D&D lore, but I know that Vecna is not one to fiddle around with. And I am trying to convince them otherwise. I personally want to go after St. Cuthbert. But one of the other players is a demi lich, so he has ideas of grandeur of replacing Vecna...yeah, I personally think he is dumb for it.
Kihon 09-11-07, 05:52 PM	Really - a demi lich you say, hmmm... seems a lord of the undead could control a demi lich - I suppose the other characters just want a real fight and plan on killing him (the demi lich) at the same time as Vecna. Any chance you read "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" module? It has a demi-lich that can pretty much take over any other undead that gets close to it - gives a great reasoning, etc... I would play Vecna the same way. Don't tell your players - just hand your demi lich character a note face down - it says something like 'Vecna controls you, but gives you enough free will to decide which spells you will cast at your party for maximum effect.' To be nice - have Vecna just summon in help, buff them, ect... - no offense, let the demi lich player kill the rest of the group. If they figure it out, then perhaps Vecna might go offense... now that would be worth a laugh!
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 05:56 PM	Once again R.S. kills the unkillable... Not with anyone worth their salt DM'ing would you ever kill the God of Secrets! Dude, you really don't get it, do ya? The deities, as presented in Deities and Demigods, are pathetic, and you know it. The builds are sloppy and poorly thought out. A high level immortal can easily crush many of the deities in there. Hell, our DM's god character can fight the entire book and win. We aren't cheating or powergaming, nor are we guilty of poor DMing. WoC just did a very poor job with that book. Did you know that Zues does not meet the requirement for half of his salient abilities? Inescusable. Should we have rebuilt Vecna to be a real challenge? Yes, we probably should have. Does it really matter anymore? No, not really. These gods aren't omnipotent or omniscient. They have stats, and therefore they can die.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 06:00 PM	I personally don't believe that Gods should die. But we just built these 40 gestalts, and my one friend is just dying to take a crack at a God. And since Vecna is about the weakest one, DR wise, and he was an ascended deity, I said I would try to run it. So the task has fallen to me to make a mini campaign in which we go after Vecna...joy joy I vote rebuild him as a gesalt. Wizard/Dread Necro with the Ultimate Magus prc would be sweeeeet.
Khael 09-11-07, 06:13 PM	If you gesalt though no ult. magus (no PrC that give the best of two classes remember) and since its a god, theres little point in bending that rule. (or shouldn't be if the god is a well-made as his title of god suggests.). Personally though gesalt wizard/sorcerer or warmage. By his history he is an arcane caster first and always outside of divinity. Or... make them fight the ghoul king Doresain or Kyuss, if they must fight a godlet of death. Either involve more work to use, but are more fitting to hear fought, since they're 1) demigods, and 2) outside of certain prophecies, minor so they can put up a good fight still being divine, without... an obvious TPKing in round 1 or similar.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 06:24 PM	If you gesalt though no ult. magus (no PrC that give the best of two classes remember) and since its a god, theres little point in bending that rule. (or shouldn't be if the god is a well-made as his title of god suggests.). Aww, c'mon, nobody's gonna know if you give him a little more zest. :shifty: Besides, if you build him really well, you can play around with the PCs a little bit. Let them almost win, and then WHAM, banished forever to the elemental plan of.....of unhappiness! Personally though gesalt wizard/sorcerer or warmage. By his history he is an arcane caster first and always outside of divinity. Dread Necro would get him the Lich template for free.
Kihon 09-11-07, 06:34 PM	RS perhaps you don't remember, or never heard/read about one minor problem you are over looking. The Deities & Demi-gods book assumes that your character is limited to 20th level. Since you are using epic level gestalt characters you are not using the Deities & Demi-gods book as intended, sorry dude. Once you go epic, you have to revise every single god in that book. An easy way is to go to Dicefreaks and look at their proposed gods & then modify as you want. I can't believe you never got that? Not one god in that book as an epic spell? What did you think? They forgot? That book was intended as a place to start against characters that were no higher then 20th level. Take Odin as written against your 20th level character - see what happens. Now you are doubling his level to 40th and adding in epic items... well of course you can destroy them as written, but now lets double all the stats of the gods - including their SR (o wait, you can't penetrate it?) and double their divine abilities and double all their scores and add in epic levels and add in epic magic and epic items and boom - once again you have a fight that you probably can't win under most circumstances. But if you want to play a munchkin game - have fun - just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you shouldn't do it...
Kamin_Majere 09-11-07, 07:43 PM	And thus Kihon speaks the truth. Of course Epic characters can beat gods that dont have access to epic materials. But you take a 50 HD 180 point buy (with level/racial/divine bonus added afterwards) Add in the now Epic gear and spells that Vecna would have access to, as well as the divine abilities. Now you have a creature that a 40th level party will be fearing.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 08:46 PM	RS perhaps you don't remember, or never heard/read about one minor problem you are over looking. The Deities & Demi-gods book assumes that your character is limited to 20th level. Since you are using epic level gestalt characters you are not using the Deities & Demi-gods book as intended, sorry dude. Once you go epic, you have to revise every single god in that book. An easy way is to go to Dicefreaks and look at their proposed gods & then modify as you want. I can't believe you never got that? Not one god in that book as an epic spell? What did you think? They forgot? That book was intended as a place to start against characters that were no higher then 20th level. Take Odin as written against your 20th level character - see what happens. Now you are doubling his level to 40th and adding in epic items... well of course you can destroy them as written, but now lets double all the stats of the gods - including their SR (o wait, you can't penetrate it?) and double their divine abilities and double all their scores and add in epic levels and add in epic magic and epic items and boom - once again you have a fight that you probably can't win under most circumstances. But if you want to play a munchkin game - have fun - just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean you shouldn't do it... Tell you what, since you seem so miffed about this, I'll rebuild Vecna from scratch, the way I think he should be done, and we'll have a rematch. He'll be comparable in power to our homebrew deities. Level 60. Divine ability array. Epic equipement and feats. Actual prestige classes. The good stuff. Then I'll play my character (the mortal version), and Vecna will be played by our alternate DM (he has his own wizard god, and knows how to play them). We rewind to the part where our armies are clashing, and I am approaching his stronghold. I bet he can kick my ass with that kind of power, but not always.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 08:51 PM	And thus Kihon speaks the truth. Of course Epic characters can beat gods that dont have access to epic materials. But you take a 50 HD 180 point buy (with level/racial/divine bonus added afterwards) Add in the now Epic gear and spells that Vecna would have access to, as well as the divine abilities. Now you have a creature that a 40th level party will be fearing. No argument here. I do disagree with Kihon's idea that the deities should always be a *bit* more powerful than everyone else. Just because the PCs are hitting high epic doesn't mean the gods suddenly need to be given a power boost to keep things in perspective. Theres no reason why player characters can't surpase the gods in power. Should it be difficult? Hell ya. It was for me. But it can be done. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hates fun.
Kamin_Majere 09-11-07, 09:17 PM	Anyone who says otherwise clearly hates fun. :weep:why do you use such hateful words:weep: LOL I agree it wold be possible to actually challenge gods, but honestly the likely hood of mortals even hurting them is unlikely. I've read a bit of your other thread about killing Vecna, and if none of your characters were able to...you know wholesale slaughter entire legions of (poorly written non epic) gods. Would any of you actually have anything near the power level needed to actually challenge even a lesser god? If i recall correctly i think you said that you actually killed Vecna in melee combat... i mean what? What god would even let itself be caught where that would be an actual issue? With contingencies and epic spells and everything else a god would be able to pull out of (seemingly) thin air. It just doesn't match up.
RealSorceror 09-11-07, 09:43 PM	:weep:why do you use such hateful words:weep: LOL Because its funny? ;) I agree it wold be possible to actually challenge gods, but honestly the likely hood of mortals even hurting them is unlikely. No argument here. If I hadn't been significantly higher level than him, I doubt I could have done it. I've read a bit of your other thread about killing Vecna, and if none of your characters were able to...you know wholesale slaughter entire legions of (poorly written non epic) gods. Would any of you actually have anything near the power level needed to actually challenge even a lesser god? I was level 60 and immortal, and the other two players where already Lesser gods (they conqueered the Nine Hells, for cryin' out loud, and had hundred of thousands of mortal worshipers before ascension). Galoneever actually shot V with a divine blast before I even got there. If i recall correctly i think you said that you actually killed Vecna in melee combat... i mean what? What god would even let itself be caught where that would be an actual issue? With contingencies and epic spells and everything else a god would be able to pull out of (seemingly) thin air. It just doesn't match up. It was the Sword of Kas. If there is anything with "Vecna-Bane" written on it, it would be the Sword of Kas. My caster level was better than his, and I could beat his spell-resistance. I could successfully counterspell his spells, and harm him with mine. And like I said, we used the bad WoTC version. I agree that we should have rebuilt him. A mistake on my part. And if I hadn't discovered that his phylacretey (sp?) was his eye and hand, he wouldn't have actually died.
Thegans 09-12-07, 04:03 AM	Trust me, I realize all this. I didn't know the first part, just because I don't know much about D&D lore, but I know that Vecna is not one to fiddle around with. And I am trying to convince them otherwise. I personally want to go after St. Cuthbert. But one of the other players is a demi lich, so he has ideas of grandeur of replacing Vecna...yeah, I personally think he is dumb for it. Why not just have them fight one or several of the abominations from the epic level hand book?
deathbane 09-12-07, 09:46 AM	You are a nice DM for even giving them a chance at winning. I would try to talk them out of it, but if push came to shove, and they got to his domain, and somehow got his attention then I would send CR-whatever/whoever the God had working for him/her, and after the caster's have used all their spells I would dominate the melee guy(s), and have him kill the casters. Then I would kill the melee guy, and toss them from the heavens(or it's equivalent). I would order my followers to pen the tale of all their great deads they had done in a book, and then write how easily I owned them as an example to any other uppity mortals.
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 02:50 PM	The problem with the spellcaster "running out" is he has persistent spell and time stop. You cast persistent time stop so that you have a 24 hour round, where you rest your 8 hours and recover spells, then the round ends and the fight resumes, with the caster now full of spells again. Though I think a god like Vecna could screw that up somehow, considering he uses magic better than anyone in history.
RealSorceror 09-12-07, 02:56 PM	The problem with the spellcaster "running out" is he has persistent spell and time stop. You cast persistent time stop so that you have a 24 hour round, where you rest your 8 hours and recover spells, then the round ends and the fight resumes, with the caster now full of spells again. Though I think a god like Vecna could screw that up somehow, considering he uses magic better than anyone in history. 24 Hour Time Stop? Kick ass! Its too bad Time Stop doesn't work in a God vs God fight, or else I'd use that all the time (deities are removed from the time stream). If I converted Temporal Exceleration into an arcane spell, could I then have a 24 hour version of Temporal Exceleration? (effectively, this would accomplish the same thing, but instead of stopping time, it just speeds up the caster).
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 03:02 PM	Deities are removed from the time stream? Where does it say this? Does that mean that time stop doesn't work on deities? I don't play with Epics and Deities that often to know all those fancy tricks LoL
Mirtek 09-12-07, 03:20 PM	Vecna just casts an antimagic field, the mortal attackers are screwed, while his own powers are unaffected. :P
TurnCloak_Kobold 09-12-07, 03:27 PM	>_> stop giving RS more spell ideas, hes bad enough as it is. though to be honest im pretty sure with propper pre planning, as we had, and our caster, ala RS, used the feat that allowed for turning attempts to be used for counter spelling, then used his spells to counter spell, he could have defeated many, if not all of big V's spells. that means Vecna is by all means trapped in his castle, which is his divine realm. so we dont go inside and enter melee, that would be stupid thanks to retooled Vecnas alter reality if he had it. so if cain is there, which he would be if we where just replaying it from the begining, then we could essentually turn big V's castle into rubble around his ears, giving us a clear shot on him inside his now castle shaped divine bubble in the middle of no where. so if he dosent manage to run we just divine blast him to little bits, if he does manage to run, well we have his divine realm under guard now, waiting for him to reapear. since most of us where at least minor deities, we can wait as long as he can, he has to come home at some point, even if its just to see if where still waiting on his proverbial doorstep.
Khadmus 09-12-07, 03:29 PM	Time Stop has no duration. It is instantaneous. Read the rulebook next time.
concerro 09-12-07, 03:38 PM	You can only counterspell with the same spell, and I am sure V has access to spells that you don't and being the god of secrets he probably know which spells you don't have.
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 03:52 PM	Time Stop has no duration. It is instantaneous. Read the rulebook next time. Actually, it does. Check out that link. so next time you want to snap off with a witty insult, make sure you do your own research. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm
Khadmus 09-12-07, 04:15 PM	? Pardon me for being so...blunt, I must have been influenced by something (my bets are on testosterone). And I don't do "witty". At any rate, it looks like I will now have to retreat from here in shame.
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 04:46 PM	I'm curious...how does 1d4+1 rounds = 24 hours. I'm a bit lost.
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 04:50 PM	Persistent spell extends the duration to 24 hours. It is usable on any spell that can be extended, which can be used on any spell with a duration.
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 04:57 PM	I'll have to keep that in mind. It's an easier way of doing something I was already doing. What I once did as an epic spell caster was to cast time stop, and then plane shift to a plane in which time does not flow; then plane shift back to where I had cast time stop.
Frobojoe 09-12-07, 05:12 PM	Actually, it does. Check out that link. so next time you want to snap off with a witty insult, make sure you do your own research. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm The FAQ clarifies that the 1d4+1 rounds are merely apparent time and that the actual duration of time stop is instantaneous, so you can't actually make it Persistent.
ZiggZagg 09-12-07, 05:19 PM	Well, the errata I have hasn't changed it, plus I don't always find that the FAQ knows what they are talking about, so it will just stay that way in games I play LoL
Khadmus 09-12-07, 05:21 PM	The FAQ clarifies that the 1d4+1 rounds are merely apparent time and that the actual duration of time stop is instantaneous, so you can't actually make it Persistent. I'm not completely retarded, then. Glad to know.
deathbane 09-12-07, 05:27 PM	Well, the errata I have hasn't changed it, plus I don't always find that the FAQ knows what they are talking about, so it will just stay that way in games I play LoL Time Stop Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat. You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop. This is from the page that you gave the link to :)
RealSorceror 09-12-07, 05:28 PM	You can only counterspell with the same spell, and I am sure V has access to spells that you don't and being the god of secrets he probably know which spells you don't have. I'm a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Bard, and at the time, I was over 300 years old. During the fight, I knew everything in the PH (minus a few Bard spells). Also, there are ways to be able to counter a spell with a spell of the same level and school, rather than the exact same spell. Since I have access to all schools and to 9th level spells, this is not a problem.
deathbane 09-12-07, 05:56 PM	I'm a Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Bard, and at the time, I was over 300 years old. During the fight, I knew everything in the PH (minus a few Bard spells). Also, there are ways to be able to counter a spell with a spell of the same level and school, rather than the exact same spell. Since I have access to all schools and to 9th level spells, this is not a problem. Being a cleric covers all of the spells since they automatically know them, but you still have to have certain wizard spells prepared, and the right epic spells(for some reason I want to help you win now:confused: ). I guess if your DM allows you to kill gods then you should go for it. I don't know how long this would take, but if you were to get your own followers you might be able to draw spells from yourself, because V should be able to but you off from the divine spells that your god gives you, if desecrate(level 2 spell) can do it, with only a permanent fixture.
RealSorceror 09-12-07, 06:53 PM	Being a cleric covers all of the spells since they automatically know them, but you still have to have certain wizard spells prepared, and the right epic spells(for some reason I want to help you win now:confused: ). I guess if your DM allows you to kill gods then you should go for it. I don't know how long this would take, but if you were to get your own followers you might be able to draw spells from yourself, because V should be able to but you off from the divine spells that your god gives you, if desecrate(level 2 spell) can do it, with only a permanent fixture. ;) Thanks for the tip, but its already been done. I was speaking about the past. This thead (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=882704) covers most of the details. I'm now a DR 20 greater god of dark magic, corruption, undeath, and yes, secrets. I'm scheduled to have a showdown with our world's greater god of good magic, Japheph. I expect a 45/65 chance of success, in his favor. Japheph is damn good, and the player has more experience with deity v. deity combat and spellcasting than I do. However, both characters have no real animosity between eachother, and are really only fighting because their "allies" are fighting. We've both discussed the possibility that our characters may just agree to stay out of the fight, and to not mess with eachother's domains and worshippers. Otherwise, I'll be in for one the longest combat sequences I've ever been in...
deathbane 09-12-07, 07:14 PM	;) Thanks for the tip, but its already been done. I was speaking about the past. This thead (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=882704) covers most of the details. I'm now a DR 20 greater god of dark magic, corruption, undeath, and yes, secrets. I'm scheduled to have a showdown with our world's greater god of good magic, Japheph. I expect a 45/65 chance of success, in his favor. Japheph is damn good, and the player has more experience with deity v. deity combat and spellcasting than I do. However, both characters have no real animosity between eachother, and are really only fighting because their "allies" are fighting. We've both discussed the possibility that our characters may just agree to stay out of the fight, and to not mess with eachother's domains and worshippers. Otherwise, I'll be in for one the longest combat sequences I've ever been in... Have fun, I'm actually to lazy to read all those pages on the other thread, but I might check back to see who won. see ya
Kihon 09-12-07, 11:06 PM	I find that "god killing" games turn munchkin way too fast for me. I truly like the Epic game, but all too often I read about it going form way cool to Way Stupid. But hey, it's a game, enjoy. If your 16 year old DM allows you to have a +100 sword of God Slaying to go along with you knowing every spell ever created beyond what even the god of magic & secrets knows - well hey - good for you.
deathbane 09-13-07, 01:08 AM	I find that "god killing" games turn munchkin way too fast for me. I truly like the Epic game, but all too often I read about it going form way cool to Way Stupid. But hey, it's a game, enjoy. If your 16 year old DM allows you to have a +100 sword of God Slaying to go along with you knowing every spell ever created beyond what even the god of magic & secrets knows - well hey - good for you. I understand, and I still would be VERY against it in my campaign, but it seems that in their campaign they have nothing else to conquer. Maybe after this they can retire the campaign and start something new, however if I ever stat a god out I plan on making it a short fight(assuming Dicefreaks has not done it already).
TurnCloak_Kobold 09-14-07, 12:06 AM	you cant even begin to imagine the horror of trying to make something chalenging that people enjoy fighting with this group. its a headacke, and i dont even do it that often. but its true, we have little left to conquere and hopefully when our supreme dwarf asends a bit more into over-deity, we might return to a somewhat more relaxed campaighn style, somehting im sort of rooting for. >.> oh, and i believe there is a feat in one of the books ((possibly a variant)) for the cleric that allows for the use of turning checks to be used as spells for the purpose of fizzing another spell out. i believe its pay two turn checks and recieve a spell counter sort of deal. and concidering that he has no need for any of his turn checks, Sal. dosent need to have the exact spell that big V. has, he just needs to beet the caster check >.> but im done on this thread, no more for me to say here.
ZiggZagg 09-14-07, 09:53 PM	Where exactly is it stated all the accomplishments of Vecna, like escaping the Mist lands, and being able to wield magic better than the Gods?
rivaltuna 09-15-07, 01:43 AM	Well, you can't kill Vecna, because I already ripped him apart and consumed his soul. I'm also wearing his skull on my face. Oh, so you managed to kill him after all that? I remember that! [/lurk mode]
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-20-07, 06:39 AM	Okay, so what should Vecna actually be able to do? A Lot, for Starters. I don't think Vecna would actually be DR 10, I'd reduce him to DR 8, as I'm not particularly impressed with his exploits. (D&Dg seems to have a real thing for DR 10 and DR 15) He'd be Something Like: Necromancer 32/Lich/DR 8 Hit Dice (32d12 +8d20)= 292 HP (x3) = 876 HP [I don't max Deities HP] Initiative+20+ +12(Dex) + 8(DR) Speed: 60 ft AC: 75 =10 + 16 [Divine] + 12 [Dex] + 5 Natural + 12 [Ring of Lies, Deflection] +20 Profane Attacks: Afterthought +44/39 Melee [DR adds +2 BAB/ Rank] Damage:Afterthought 1d4 + 12 + 4d6 Int Drain/19-20 or by Spell. Face/Reach: 5ft by 5ft/5ft Special Attacks: Special Quantities: Lesser Deity, Undead, DR 43/+4 or (DR 18/Epic+Magic+Good), Divine aura 800 ft. Saves:(Fort +28[43*], Reflex+38[53*], Will +46[61*]) / Abilities: Str 22(34), Dex 22(34), Con N/A, Int 41(75), Wis 35, Cha 29 [B]Skills: [Lots, with Concentration > 80. The Book of Vecna grants him a +25 Divine bonus to all knowledge checks, while his Near-Artifact Necklace of the Penultimate Spell grants him a +40 bonus on Spellcraft, putting his concentration skill upwards of 120.) Feats:, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Empower Spell, Skill Focus (Concentration), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Penetration, Great Fortitude, Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (Ray), Widen Spell Epic Feats:Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity X4, Multispell x2, Master Staff, Improved Heightened Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell X 3 SDAs: [Divine Toughness x2, Double Hit points], Alter Reality, Arcane Mastery, Life Drain, Spell Resistance, Spontaneous Wizard Spells] Items: Fort Buffer +10, Necklace of Penultimate Spells, Afterthought, Book of Vecna, Headband of Intellect +12, Gloves of Dexterity +12, Belt of Giant Strength +12, Ring of Lies (+12 Deflection AC), Orange Ioun Stone Vecna uses weekly epic buffs to reach the star values, through a 10 minute ritual requiring sacrifices, massive numbers of participants, and XP Costs that are essentially free. Strategy: Vecna, as designed here, is a multispell supercaster who wins fights by dumping out three 9th or level spells every round. Against rival mages, he goes Superior Invisible and tags them with his dagger, generally wiping out much of their spell power. With multiple rapid spells to use, Vecna can easily slip in a Time Stop and disappear if he needs to. It's also not above Vecna to disappear for a single round, and return with a new set of spells, thanks to his knowledge of temporal anomalies. Vecna can also tap into epic spells (of which he knows all of them) and High level spell slots (Up to 13th level). It's only marginally possible that Vecna can be surprised. With essentially a triple casting rate, it doesn't take much time for him to buff and threaten, even if he was totally unprepared (and he never is). He's never without his ability buffs, and his other ring has a counterspell set against Mage's Disjunction. Given the element of Surprise, Vecna will attempt to dominate the weak-willed members of the party, one by one, until it is noticed. At this point, the dominated turn on the one who pointed out the effect. Against other gods, Vecna is generally content not to fight--he's the god of secrets, not a war deity. In the event it happens anyway, Mage's Disjunction and Time Stop are the first spells he casts, to be followed with either a getaway, or a barrage of epic magics. As a deity, Vecna is not affected by the permanent removal of spellcasting clause in MDJ, so he can use it without hesitation. Whew! That was quite a project.
Kihon 09-26-07, 01:43 PM	ZiggZagg - your question partially answered: Vecna Reborn & Die Vecna Die are two modules in which his history is discussed. In Die Vecna Die he escapes the mislands and goes from demi-god status to full Intermediate God Status while breaking all the rules and landing in Sigil (and standing against the Lady of Pain) - so that should be a good place to begin - if you are really interested in his back story. The origional Dreadlands hard cover book would also be good background info.
ZiggZagg 09-26-07, 05:37 PM	Where could one go about finding these modules and book? I am actually interested in this topic now LoL
BlackRequiem 09-26-07, 06:13 PM	What is with everyone wanting to kill God or Gods these days? :rolleyes:
captianhowdy 09-26-07, 06:30 PM	What is with everyone wanting to kill God or Gods these days? :rolleyes: God of War series might have provoked it i suppose.
Kihon 09-27-07, 12:07 PM	ZiggZagg - where to find them? Amazon.com has them all for sale if you want to buy them. Where to get the info for free? Good question - sorry, but I can't help you there. As to him using magic better then the gods, well that's part of the reason he is now a 'god' of magic. I alway find battling the gods themselves to be a bit over the top, even for the most epic of games.
Bloodsoul 09-27-07, 12:26 PM	It's a little hard when one's campaign has certainly devolved to something like this; I think after slaying demons, devils, dragons, and gods, the only challenge left to face for my own PC-turned-goddess is motherhood... ¬_¬
HuManBing 09-27-07, 05:39 PM	Really - a demi lich you say, hmmm... seems a lord of the undead could control a demi lich - I suppose the other characters just want a real fight and plan on killing him (the demi lich) at the same time as Vecna. Any chance you read "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" module? It has a demi-lich that can pretty much take over any other undead that gets close to it - gives a great reasoning, etc... I would play Vecna the same way. Don't tell your players - just hand your demi lich character a note face down - it says something like 'Vecna controls you, but gives you enough free will to decide which spells you will cast at your party for maximum effect.' To be nice - have Vecna just summon in help, buff them, ect... - no offense, let the demi lich player kill the rest of the group. If they figure it out, then perhaps Vecna might go offense... now that would be worth a laugh! Personally, I think any "instant defeat" scenario should be pared down. Lots of "instant control" situations may make sense for non epic characters, but if a character is epic, then things should allow a save or an opposed role or something. Otherwise, what happens if Orcus (who is allegedly lord of the undead) goes up against Vecna (who is allegedly lord of the undead) or against Nerull (who is allegedly lord of the undead)?
Kihon 09-27-07, 06:43 PM	I guess they probably should be prepared for their minions to go 'wacky' - all of them. It is also a reason they likely wouldn't bring undead followers to such a fight at all. A demon Lord of the undead against the god of magic & secrets - what a fight... unlikely that they would ever engage each other... but if it happened - how cool for the upper planes.