Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 07-20-07, 12:16 PM	Just as the title says. Is it possible to create a D&D campaign world in which the deities do not, in fact, exist? If you've done it, I'd love to hear your story.
Sorcen_Anenooata 07-20-07, 12:22 PM	Of course it would work just fine. I havent done it yet but Sorcen, my archdevil, is in the process of eradicating all the gods so perhaps I could run a game int he future where he has killed them all. I dont see why it wouldnt work really.
Callista 07-20-07, 12:27 PM	There's always the problem of clerics--a cleric without a god would necessarily be deluded. Or else, he would be just another sort of mage. I'm not sure if I like that possiblity. Could clerics get their spells from something other than a deity, or their own faith?
Millennium 07-20-07, 12:41 PM	Of course it's possible, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Removing the gods creates issues that need to be addressed, and there is no set way of doing this: it's up to the DM. Some of the concerns are mechanical, while others are strictly flavor Here are a few things to keep in mind, though this is by no means an exhaustive list: Does religion exist even though there are no gods? If religions exist, what do they believe? If not, do people seek spiritual fulfillment in other ways? Do divine spellcasters still exist? If so, how do they get their powers? Do the Outer Planes and exemplars still exist? If not, what happens when people die? If so, how do ordinary people view them?
Sorcen_Anenooata 07-20-07, 12:47 PM	Yep, clerics are able to worship a belief in somethign rather then the gods. The problem though is that if enough people worship a belief then it will turn into a god and eventually substantiate into a phsyical form.
elondir 07-20-07, 12:54 PM	I would look at Dark Sun and see if that's how you envision it. Dark Sun didn't have deities per se. There were still clerics and druids though - clerics worshipped the elements, templars worshipped the sorcerer-kings, and druids worshipped the land. The SK's were probably the closest thing to it, although they were just human [sorcerer or wizard] 20/psion 20/dragon of tyr 1 to 3. If it isn't I would just say that clerics draw their magic from the Force (as in spiritual energy shared by all living things). Or you could allow arcane casters to draw from the cleric and druid spell lists.
Salla 07-20-07, 12:59 PM	There's always the problem of clerics--a cleric without a god would necessarily be deluded. Or else, he would be just another sort of mage. I'm not sure if I like that possiblity. Could clerics get their spells from something other than a deity, or their own faith? By PHB RAW, Clerics can draw their powers from their faith alone, no god required. It could be argued that all Clerics in Eberron do so, and that the gods are merely anthropomorphizations of belief, because there is no solid evidence to support the existence of divine beings. The last time I did this, myself, though, I simply eliminated divine magic en toto, made a handful of the lesser divine classes (Ranger, Spirit Shaman) into Arcane Casters, removed Knowledge: Religion (knowing about Undead was filed under Knowledge: The Planes), and got on with it.
JulesCARV 07-20-07, 01:01 PM	On possibility that intrigues me about clerics is the idea that they know their magic through practical techniques independent of faith (whether in a deity, religion, non-religious ideal, or whatever), but that those techniques are the traditional purview of religious institutions. It would be somewhat like book copying in medeival monasteries or astronomical predictions in Mayan religion -- yes, an atheist or the like could learn to make illuminated manuscripts, copy texts, and bind books as well as any monk, and could learn to predict eclipses as well as a Mayan priest, but society's culture and institutions are arranged such that religious monks tended to be the ones who copied books, had access to inks, paper, scriptoria, etc, and priests were the ones taught how to predict eclipses and other astronomical events. Clerics don't draw their power from either deities or faith, but as matter of societal structure, they tend to be religiously-affiliated. Of course, this assumes that some form of religion will exist without clearly existent deities. It could be that you have a world with neither religions nor deities, but my post assumes something kinda like Earth: religions exist, and deities are indeterminant. (I think god(s) do(es)n't exist in real life, but I'm sure there are many people around here who do; I don't want to take us on a tangent about that, though.) Without religions or deities, clerics clearly couldn't exist while keeping much of their existing flavor at all, except as some sort of warrior-philosopher-mages who are invariably strong believers in something, although what is up to them. (Update: I should note that I'm not a big fan of "you can get divine power from any source, so long as you believe in it." Having clerical magic be a technical affair not based on faith at all, like wizardry, is fine with me, as is receiving power from deities and receiving power from established non-deific ideals, such as the Path of Light in Eberron, but drawing power straight from one's personal belief and faith to shape reality seems to me to lead to hairy, subjectivist, Mage: the Ascension-style metaphysics that I find unappealing. Meh.)
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-07, 02:12 PM	Of course it is possible. Since I prefer to play using the background of the 2E Metasetting, here's what I would do: The Crystal Sphere is disconnected from the Astral Plane because of *hand wave*, so the deific connection is not there and the spirits of the dead have a problem with departing, so they stick around to guide their descendants. Perhaps they fill their spare time flying through wildspace or they hide in the underdark. I'd probably go with hiding in the underdark. So the inhabitants developed a belief system based on 2 things: 1) Reverence of nature (that means druids), 2) Reverence of the ancestor spirits (that could mean clerics). Appeasement of both angry ancestors and angry nature spirits would consume a lot of time other worlds spend on worshipping the gods, so it is a zero-sum situation.
caeruleus 07-20-07, 02:58 PM	Look up Dragonlance during the Fifth Age for another example.
retillin 07-20-07, 04:36 PM	Lol, dang it caeruleus you beat me to it. The Mystic class in Dragonlance is a healing class without gods. The Dragonlance Campain Setting has what you are looking for.
Salla 07-20-07, 04:45 PM	Lol, dang it caeruleus you beat me to it. The Mystic class in Dragonlance is a healing class without gods. The Dragonlance Campain Setting has what you are looking for. Technically, the cleric can also be a healing class without gods. However, nobody ever remembers this. :)
Swordbreaker 07-20-07, 04:59 PM	Its possible. I have done it. In some of my campaigns, most people worshipped the Four Flows of the Universe (Order, Chaos, Iniquity, Holy). All things were powered from these forces, and there were no outer planes, just the Omniplane known as Compass. Clerics drew their power from Whitch ever flow they ordained (one of their domains had to be Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil).
JulesCARV 07-20-07, 05:14 PM	Clerics drew their power from Whitch ever flow they ordained (one of their domains had to be Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil). So, could you take an alignment domain without being of that alignment, or did neutral/neutral clerics just not exist?
caeruleus 07-20-07, 06:33 PM	Technically, the cleric can also be a healing class without gods. However, nobody ever remembers this. :) True. But I suggested Dragonlance as a setting which had some details worked out of a campaign without gods. For a short time, at least. So, could you take an alignment domain without being of that alignment, or did neutral/neutral clerics just not exist? This reminds me of the fact that in OD&D, clerics could not be Neutral, they had to be Lawful or Chaotic (and the choice affected how certain spells were cast).
Salla 07-20-07, 06:37 PM	This reminds me of the fact that in OD&D, clerics could not be Neutral, they had to be Lawful or Chaotic (and the choice affected how certain spells were cast). As a counterpoint to the Druid, which could ONLY be True Neutral.
caeruleus 07-21-07, 04:30 AM	As a counterpoint to the Druid, which could ONLY be True Neutral. Indeed. That was the case for the druid up until 2e, even when the other alignment axis was added.
ArcTan 07-21-07, 06:07 AM	Yep, clerics are able to worship a belief in somethign rather then the gods. The problem though is that if enough people worship a belief then it will turn into a god and eventually substantiate into a phsyical form. ...That's totally setting-dependent. That "rule" doesn't even exist anywhere in the core rules, and is only in the now-hardly-referenced-if-ever Deities & Demigods. It's definitely not assumed to be true in Eberron, and it's basically false in Forgotten Realms (Ao is the one who made the rule about what can and can't be a god, and he can change it anytime he likes, given what he did last time), and even D&DG says it's not a hard-and-fast rule for all campaigns and is one of those things they assume DMs will mess with. Frankly, I never liked the "Belief Is All" concept for deities. It's just a little too PoMo for me, and I'm annoyed that in all its PoMo glory it has more or less become the default way sword & sorcery fantasy thinks gods should work.
caeruleus 07-21-07, 11:42 AM	Frankly, I never liked the "Belief Is All" concept for deities. It's just a little too PoMo for me, and I'm annoyed that in all its PoMo glory it has more or less become the default way sword & sorcery fantasy thinks gods should work. You're right that not all campaign settings are done this way, but it's a perfectly legitimate way of setting up a campaign. It's prominent in sword & sorcery because it fits the general tone of a world without moral absolutes.
Mugwump 07-21-07, 12:16 PM	Absolutely. You could make divine magic arcane, spread the divine spells over the schools, and then strengthen and rigidly enforce school boundaries. This would eliminate deific magic but prevent any one wizard gaining the "best of both worlds" so to speak. Specialization would be mandatory, requiring the loss of all other schools, and the various school organizations could be in sometimes violent competition for prestige/power. I would still keep the demon-worshippers, though. Everyone loves a little cult bustin'.
Mugwump 07-21-07, 12:26 PM	Just as the title says. Is it possible to create a D&D campaign world in which the deities do not, in fact, exist? If you've done it, I'd love to hear your story. Sorry, forgot to put this in my first reply. With my group, this is what happens everytime someone refuses to play a cleric. Deific power disappears except for the occasional evil cult you fight and the wise healer of indeterminate faith you go to for help. Deities, unless you're a cleric, are flavor. I admit, I kind of miss it when it goes, but our DM runs much more to the Cthulhu side of life.
LordInsane 07-21-07, 01:11 PM	I once dreamed up a campaign setting were the gods disapeared in a very public manner (so almost all people knew they were gone), and different philosophies had replaced the gods as what was believed in the generations that followed.
hazhar 07-21-07, 02:23 PM	Frankly, I never liked the "Belief Is All" concept for deities. It's just a little too PoMo for me, and I'm annoyed that in all its PoMo glory it has more or less become the default way sword & sorcery fantasy thinks gods should work. :rolleyes: Well setting aside the question of whether or not modern "sword & sorcery fantasy" isn't already a pretty postmodern concept... as far as I can tell the belief is power thing first entered D&D through the Planescape setting. IMO it is an idea that fits in perfectly with the unorthodox weirdness of that setting, but you're right, it might seems a little out of place in more conventional worlds.
Karsus the Mad 07-21-07, 02:35 PM	Just as the title says. Is it possible to create a D&D campaign world in which the deities do not, in fact, exist? If you've done it, I'd love to hear your story. My own world lacks any concrete deities. There's numerous religions, but they're just that, beliefs that require faith. I've also done away with divine magic (and the cleric and paladin classes). There's arcane and natural, but even this is primarily determined by cultural semantics and traditions.
ArcTan 07-21-07, 08:07 PM	You're right that not all campaign settings are done this way, but it's a perfectly legitimate way of setting up a campaign. It's prominent in sword & sorcery because it fits the general tone of a world without moral absolutes. A world with no gods at all fits a world without moral absolutes much better, I would say. A world with gods who are simply beings like us but a lot more powerful, with no direct reason to be moral or immoral, also fits that goal. A world that follows Fritz Lieber rules for gods (I'm pretty sure his stories were the earliest time I saw this idea in fantasy) is a world based on the concept that believing something makes it true, which, while not a moral absolute, is the kind of thing that's actually a really strong statement to make about the world. Gods based on belief make humans uniquely powerful and significant in the cosmos, which I find somewhat antithetical to the idea of an amoral universe where humans are here by chance. (After all, *we* don't exist because of the moral and philosophical beliefs of, say, domesticated animals. We're just *here*, and we just have power over domesticated animals because we have a lot of power in general. My idea of a "realistic" take on gods would be like that.)
ArcTan 07-21-07, 08:08 PM	:rolleyes: Well setting aside the question of whether or not modern "sword & sorcery fantasy" isn't already a pretty postmodern concept... as far as I can tell the belief is power thing first entered D&D through the Planescape setting. IMO it is an idea that fits in perfectly with the unorthodox weirdness of that setting, but you're right, it might seems a little out of place in more conventional worlds. Again, it's objectively false in the creation story of Forgotten Realms, where tying the gods to human belief is something Ao *did* after the Time of Troubles and wasn't true beforehand, as opposed to being a basic and fundamental law of the multiverse (as Planescape implies).
Lawlicron 07-21-07, 08:51 PM	Already been done. Eberron. There is no proof in Eberron that any of their deities are real, they don't answer prayers, they don't create miracles. Of course Clerics still get their spells but they don't need to have an alignment anywhere near their religions.
caeruleus 07-22-07, 12:47 AM	A world with no gods at all fits a world without moral absolutes much better, I would say. A world with gods who are simply beings like us but a lot more powerful, with no direct reason to be moral or immoral, also fits that goal. Sure, when I said that having no gods fits an amoral world, I didn't mean to imply that that's the only thing that fits it. Some of Moorcock's stories are a good example. While he sometimes portrays the Lords of Law as good and the Lords of Chaos as evil (especially in his earlier works), it's largely relative because it's sometimes reversed. A world that follows Fritz Lieber rules for gods (I'm pretty sure his stories were the earliest time I saw this idea in fantasy) is a world based on the concept that believing something makes it true, which, while not a moral absolute, is the kind of thing that's actually a really strong statement to make about the world. Gods based on belief make humans uniquely powerful and significant in the cosmos, which I find somewhat antithetical to the idea of an amoral universe where humans are here by chance. (After all, *we* don't exist because of the moral and philosophical beliefs of, say, domesticated animals. We're just *here*, and we just have power over domesticated animals because we have a lot of power in general. My idea of a "realistic" take on gods would be like that.) Good example. But I don't agree with your evaluation of it. Basing it on human belief doesn't make humans too powerful. The power it gives is in the human realm of action, so it makes perfect sense. After all, a person who believes they can accomplish something is more likely to succeed than a person who lacks such a belief. Now sure, fantasy fiction can seem to go beyond this psychological fact, but that's not too surprising for a fantasy world where humans can also become wizards. Mortals in such worlds are simply able to use "laws of nature" (if I may so boldly call them such) that are different from the ones that govern our own world. All this applies to the Gods in Lankhmar. The Gods of Lankhmar, as I'm sure you know, are another story... ;)
UnknownCorrespondent 07-22-07, 01:41 AM	Just as the title says. Is it possible to create a D&D campaign world in which the deities do not, in fact, exist? If you've done it, I'd love to hear your story. I've been developing this idea for at least 25 years. In its current form, I rely on a paraphrase of Clarke's 3rd Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws) - "Any sufficiently advanced spellcaster is indistinguishable from divinity." Originally, there were powerful magic entities that played at being gods. They created intelligent creatures to serve them, and granted their most faithful followers some of their magic in the form of spells (All magic was divine). Later these "gods" were overthrown, and their personalities were divorced from their power. After a dark age (Iron Heroes rules), new ways to harness the magic were developed. Some did it by rote, some by faith, and some by intuition. As cultures rise and fall, differing understandings of magic and the world in general are held, allowing for 1e, 2e, 3.x and d20 Past/Modern/Future campaigns at different times in the same meta-setting. For me, the core cosmology is not true, but it is what is believed by the inhabitants of the game world. Outsiders are creatures of other dimensions which are "out of phase" with the game world. "Alignment" is how mortals interpret the feelings of strangeness given off by these otherworldly creatures. Mortals do not have alignments per se, but they can be afiliated (as per PHB2/CCh) with an outsider faction. So in short, my approach to it is to play something mechanically like D&D, with different underlying explanations. I see learning about how the world really works as one of the goals of a campaign, and epic-level play represents learning to apply that knowledge to do things that were believed to be impossible.
Elana 07-22-07, 10:53 AM	A cleric can follow a philosophy (already mentioned above) Those that worship one of the devil lords seemingly get their power from the divine energy of the plane. (Those Archdevils aren't gods, so they can't grant any power thmselfs) So it is possible to get power from one of the outer planes if chanelled correctly. (A god is clearly optional for that) Demon and Devil worship are two ways for that. Titans are also a nice option to get some good beings into the mix. Then there is Ancestor worship. Actually anything that can focus the mind of the cleric can be used as a base for divine magic. And of course there would be the possibility to run a ampaign with no divine magic at all. Such a campaign just would lack clerics and druids completely. (And paladin and rangers would be greatly nerfed) At low levels the bard can do some healing. At higher levels planeshifting works great to heal the party. (Elysium is a nice place for that) (And if you have MIC introduce a few eternal wands of cure light wounds, as all arcane spellcasters can use them, no matter if that spell is on their list or not)
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 07-22-07, 02:42 PM	Aren't we living in one?
Neutronium_Dragon 07-22-07, 03:48 PM	The Eberron setting is essentially a world without gods, or rather, without proven gods. They're commonly believed to exist, but unlike generic/Greyhawk/FR/most others, it can't be proven and is essentially unprovable (any evidence for it can just as easily be used to argue against it). If they do exist, they're on such a different level that they're effectively removed from mortal access.
Schemerrat 07-22-07, 11:13 PM	1) Eberron style: there are no proven gods, but the power of faith grants a cleric access to divine powers (thus "proving" (his) gods) 2) Standard gods, but they disappear: All clerics lose their powers, churches collapse. 2)a. Clerics find other ways to access divine powers -through their own faith- thus you end up in situation 1. 2)b. Clerics are cut off from divine powers forever and you go to situation 3. 3) No divine magic: There is no cleric player class. Churches and priests will be more like here in our own world. These are all scenarios where I tried a "realistic" view, even though there might not be gods, there can still be churches. Like on our own earth, we have no adventuring clerics casting healing spells (or at least not very many, of course we do have the Catholic Saints). Another approach would be not to discuss the existence of gods, but to take away all the churches. If there are no churches and no clerics, it doesn't really matter if there are or aren't any gods because there is no one worshiping them. 4) There are clerics: the clerics will be those who draw divine power through beliefs or elements or maybe some demon-worshiping psychos. 5) No clerics and no churches: maybe you still have the occasional cult now and then, like in scenario 4, but not led by a cleric. I think I'll try this variant some day :ayyyy!: like to hear your take on this Grtz, SchemerRat
RavinRay 07-23-07, 06:16 AM	Mystara the Known World has no deities per se, though it does have immortals venerated by Material Plane races, and these immortals sponsor clerics. In 3.5 rules they might be, what, quasi-deities, or just really powerful outsiders on par with or beyond the ranks of demon princes, archdevils, and celestial paragons?
demi d20 07-24-07, 12:59 PM	Um, aren't you describing Eberron?
TheAnthroDM 07-25-07, 04:13 AM	O.o the OP gives me the vibe of vindictive atheist, but to answer the question, yes a Godless Worlds is very simple to make done, simply make Clerics be people of Philosophy.
TheAnthroDM 07-25-07, 04:13 AM	Um, aren't you describing Eberron?No, there are gods in Eberron, they just aren't stated because well lets face it, meeting a god is beyond cheesy.
TheAnthroDM 07-25-07, 04:15 AM	Aren't we living in one? Prove it. ;)
Neutronium_Dragon 07-25-07, 04:24 AM	> No, there are gods in Eberron, There *may* be gods in Eberron, but no one can prove it. If they do exist, they don't exist on any level which mortals (or even planar beings) can interact with. But equally they may not exist at all. That's one of the fundamental differences between Eberron and the other settings - faith is actual faith, because it's not something you can prove to be true.
TheAnthroDM 07-25-07, 09:13 AM	> No, there are gods in Eberron, There *may* be gods in Eberron, but no one can prove it. If they do exist, they don't exist on any level which mortals (or even planar beings) can interact with. But equally they may not exist at all. That's one of the fundamental differences between Eberron and the other settings - faith is actual faith, because it's not something you can prove to be true. Like in are world, there would be far to incredible coincidences for the existence of God/gods to be denied in any intelligent manner, but that is a topic for another time.
Karsus the Mad 07-25-07, 03:34 PM	Originally Posted by Skritz_the_Lizardmen Aren't we living in one? Prove it. ;) The lack of proof otherwise is evidence in and of itself.... That's how it goes...For what you can provide as proof one way, the same can be used to prove the opposite. That's why it's considered "faith".
caeruleus 07-25-07, 08:02 PM	The lack of proof otherwise is evidence in and of itself.... That's a well-known fallacy called the appeal to ignorance. Lack of evidence that something is true is not the same as evidence that something is not true. That needs to be established separately. The only thing you can conclude from a lack of evidence is that there is no reason behind asserting the claim in question.
TheAnthroDM 07-25-07, 08:38 PM	Do you people really want to debate this? *raises a cynical eyebrow*
Karsus the Mad 07-25-07, 09:59 PM	That's a well-known fallacy called the appeal to ignorance. Lack of evidence that something is true is not the same as evidence that something is not true. That needs to be established separately. The only thing you can conclude from a lack of evidence is that there is no reason behind asserting the claim in question. I said the lack of proof otherwise is evidence. I never said anything about a lack of evidence:confused: Do you people really want to debate this? *raises a cynical eyebrow* Not really. Considering the tongue-in-cheek attitude of the posts I was replying to, it was nothing more than a jub joke in the same line, thus the "...." :P
caeruleus 07-25-07, 10:59 PM	I said the lack of proof otherwise is evidence. I never said anything about a lack of evidence:confused: Still an instance of the fallacy, as a proof is really just the strongest type of evidence possible. A lack of proof of a claim most definitely does not imply the claim is false. Do you people really want to debate this? *raises a cynical eyebrow* Not really :)
Swordbreaker 07-27-07, 09:38 AM	So, could you take an alignment domain without being of that alignment, or did neutral/neutral clerics just not exist? Neutral/Neutral clerics did exist, however, it was considered a curse. Its part of the rumored Fifth Flow. So True Neutral clerics did not really exist for the most part. Clerics that were like chaotic good or like lawful evil or such needed only to choose only one of the alignement domains of which part of their lifestyle they upheld most.
Joni-san 07-28-07, 10:40 AM	http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4866/futilityth4.jpg
caeruleus 07-29-07, 12:25 PM	http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4866/futilityth4.jpg Actually, that first post got it wrong. He claimed to be speaking of logic, but his examples were drawn from legal cases. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal/political stance, not a logical one. Lack of evidence means that there is no basis to assert the claim, nothing more.
Kesthol 07-29-07, 06:16 PM	There's always the problem of clerics--a cleric without a god would necessarily be deluded. Or else, he would be just another sort of mage. I'm not sure if I like that possiblity. Could clerics get their spells from something other than a deity, or their own faith? There's always the problem of clerics--a cleric without a god would necessarily be deluded. Or else, he would be just another sort of mage. I'm not sure if I like that possiblity. Could clerics get their spells from something other than a deity, or their own faith? This idea has been formulated in this thread, but not really concretely: What about belief in a 'movement' or an 'inherent, universal force' (not the force, as in Star Wars)--a cause other than one put forth by one's diety(ies)? The most common way I have heard these 'movements/forces' described is as alignments--the clerics' belief in their alignments is what gives them spells. Each of the 9 alignments (or 3 and 3) have their own followers. IE, Bob the cleric is LG. He believes in the 'force' that is LG (or the 'forces' that are L and G). His domains are Healing and War--he is a "battle cleric" for his chosen 'force(s)'. Clerics of all possible alignments and domain choices may exist (except perhaps opposed alignments and domains--no Bob the LG cleric with Chaos and Evil as his domains). Religion in this world may or may not be organized. Generally, religion is not practiced fervently, and clerics are self-directed in terms of going about furthering their chosen 'force's' causes. And 'having faith' can be taken to mean believing without seeing; that is, having belief in something despite a lack of clear proof for it, or even in the face of proof against it. And 'proof' is relative and/or subjective: Submit to me a clear proof that 1+1 = 2. YOU MAY MAKE NO PRIOR ASSUMPTIONS. It can't be done because you have to start with a circular list of assumptions about existance, thought, logic, and language. "I think, therefore I am." is not a good way to step into the circular thought pattern... because it tries to avoid the circle, it gets trapped even deeper. :devil: For those not introduced to this breakdown of logic in math & philosophy (when you are looking at the root of the problem), the entire basis of logic is a large group of assumptions that have to be automatically blindly accepted as true, or else nothing sensical can be made of logic, neither in math nor philosophy nor science nor religion nor anything else, including each other and the world.. Those assumptions can be construed to be 'having faith in the practical operation of the universe and the human thought process'. This is tantamount to believing that there is something behind the veil of our thought pattern that we do not inherently understand. That frightens some of us into trying to believe that there is nothing and that there can be nothing "out there" (although this is futile, as attempting to believe somethind does not exist causes it to continue to exist, at least within your own mind... :smirk: ... poor self-avowed atheists. By saying "God does not exist" they are thinking about a god, and thereby causing it to continue to exist within their mind...), or drives most us to believe in the existance of a god, many gods, or some other (immortal, indestructable, incomprehensible, and/or true) concept or construct by which we explain to ourselves why the world is the way it is, or drives most us to grab aspirin to combat the splitting headache that metaphysics causes. So, in short (if you read the hint or not, but I would recommend reading it), the godless world can be done, but the majority of the rationla inhabitants will still believe in something(s) "out there", to rationalize their existance to themselves.
Shaftiel 07-29-07, 08:55 PM	Done it twice in my own campaigns. Sort of. The first was a Norse campaign where the Gods had vanished. Druids, rangers, and bards were fine but there were no clerics in the setting. Obviously you need to tweak some things when there aren't any clerics, but overall it worked great. The second is the current campaign, which was monotheistic until God died. Now there are all sorts of powerful beings attempting to fill the void and they are able to grant spells with level caps depending on the inherent power level of the being. None of them consider themselves Gods, nor do their followers. It's working great. Also, I would note that the second example is the opposite of the "power from worshipers" that some posters complained of - divine power in the setting is entirely inherent. -Shatiel
Stormonu 07-31-07, 10:44 PM	Another possibility is the "Ragnarok Syndrome". All the gods kill one another in a titanic battle, but existance continues afterward. If no gods replace the former gods, you may have those who can unlock divine power through ritual without a diety to grant said power directly. It's somewhat like an automated phone tree - press the right buttons and while you won't talk to a living soul, you *may* still get the information you're looking for.