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| ArchmageOmega09-24-07, 10:26 PM | All right. I don't know if this would fall in this forum, or the campaign workshop, but here goes. This describes a new cosmology I'm working on. Now before I start, please don't try to convince me to abandon this idea. I like it too much. And don't say something like "This is stupid, who'd want to play that" because, I want to play it. On the other hand, constructive criticism is welcome. I'm mainly posting this to work out what the effects of the decisions I've already made are. Also, please read the whole thing since it's fairly interconnected, and I apologize for the poor organization. I haven't figured out how to present this coherently yet. First things first. The material plane is consists of an infinite number of spheres of varying compositions hanging in a void (just like normal). However, these other spheres are also populated. The primary means of moving between these spheres are large, artifact-level portals of unknown origin (actually from many different origins). This gives a good reason for the different subraces. They actually came from different planets. Most of these portals are hidden away, but not all of them. Some are always on; some are keyed. Some are big; some are small. In the campaign I intend to run in this, there's one very large, always open gate in plain sight. Many people pass both ways through it, but don't really know much about it. One of the key features of the material plane is that deities aren't divine there. There are three ways of becoming a deity. First is to gain enough worshipers. This is probably the easiest way, but it's not really easy. Second is to steal divinity from an existing deity. Finally, you can learn the secrets to apotheosis and take an ascendant class. These prestige classes are very secret (i.e. the point of a whole campaign) and have very high prerequisites (i.e. epic). The method used to acquire divinity would go a long way towards the deity’s overall image and their first domain. If they slew another deity, they might end up with the war domain. If they literally stole it they might end up as a deity of thieves. Deities that ascended through worship would gain domains, as you'd expect. As far as the ascendant class goes, each domain would be a separate class. So you'd have a war ascendant and a magic ascendant, etc. Now when a character becomes a deity, they would (in most cases) immediately gain a new plane (similar to the genesis spell). This plane would initially be attached only to the sphere they were originally from. I'm still undecided on the size of the new (and old) planes. As they acquired worshipers on other spheres, their plane would expand to touch those too. This may not be a physical expansion as much as simply becoming coterminous with the other spheres. Since they can't get to the other spheres without going to the material plane, this is a slow expansion. After all, they're not divine on the material plane. Now for the transitive planes. First, each sphere has its own ethereal just behind it, metaphorically. Normally, these ethereal planes don't connect (except possibly through the deep ethereal) but if two spheres are very close together (Earth to Moon, maybe) then you might be able to travel between the two through ethereal travel. The astral plane is still everywhere. You can get to anywhere through the astral plane. I haven't worked out the details of what this would look like, or how long such travel would take, but I do know an observant person on the astral plane would be able to see what was connected to what, and to some degree how. The plane of shadows is behind the astral plane, somewhat like how the ethereal is behind the material plane, so the plane of shadows is also coexistent with everything, but however difficult long-range travel is on the astral plane, it's worse on the plane of shadow. Vortices to the astral plane (and possibly the plane of shadows) exist in the void between the spheres. If I've counted correctly, that just leaves the former inner planes. It's somewhat hard to visualize where these fit, but I'll say that, metaphorically, they're below everything else. They're coterminous with spots on every sphere. Volcanoes tend to be vortices to the plane of fire. Deep ocean rifts tend to lead to the plane of water. Giant, high-altitude clouds lead to air and very (very) deep caves lead to earth. Positive and negative energy are a little harder still, although I'm counting them as elemental planes. There are likely fewer vortices to these planes though. The far realm still exists out beyond the deep places in the astral, shadow and ethereal. I don't know where (or whether) to put the temporal energy plane. All this still leaves many questions. How are the elemental planes situated with respect to the astral and shadow planes? Are deities deific on the astral plane? (Probably not unless travel between spheres is very difficult in the astral. Otherwise, deities would never go to the material plane for any reason, and that spoils the flavor a bit.) Should the elemental planes be outside the astral/shadow, between that and the far realm? Should the elemental planes be another type of transitive plane? There were a few more ideas I had related to the standard deities, but I'll leave that for later. All right. That was a lot. Now for something funny. Tell me if you can spot the following possibilities: Stargate, Highlander, Spelljammer, Battle Star Galactica, Sliders. There were more, and these aren't exactly influences, but they did pop up in the discussion that generated this cosmology. :D Edit: Here's the website for this cosmology: http://www.geocities.com/magi256/cosmology/. There's quite a bit of info there already, but work on it is currently on hold. (Discussion in this thread is still ongoing though.) |
| ArchmageOmega09-25-07, 10:31 PM | All right. Some new information and some new questions. So far I've gotten no replies. Is this just too much information? I've been thinking about the elemental planes. I'm leaning towards the elemental tempest (stolen from the future :D). I've also been thinking about the astral plane and how everything fits together. Let's start with the astral plane. When you planeshift to the astral, you end up floating around something that looks like a 3D color pool. It seems to be about the size of a basketball at arms length, but you can't reach it. If you try to move around it, it even moves like a basketball at arms length, but if you try to move closer, it gets bigger and bigger until you fall out of the astral onto that planet. Back in the astral, there are thin strings leading away from the ball out into the distance. These are the various portals and other connections to the other planets and planes. You can follow them through the astral, but it could take a while. From anywhere in the astral, there seems to be an infinite sea of roiling energy below you, no matter which direction below is. If you turn over, all the balls and lines turn over, but the tempest is still below you. If you approach it, you'll eventually end up in the elemental tempest. This is somewhere between the elemental planes and limbo. Amidst the chaos, there are areas that more stable. These look like the old elemental planes. The City of Brass would be located in an area of stable fire, etc. Sore areas are less stable than normal. These act more like the old Limbo; a strong will can impose some order in these regions. Getting back from the elemental tempest, or from any of the deep places (the deep astral, the deep shadow or the deep ethereal) is quite difficult and you are very likely to end up on a different planet unless you really know where you are going. Now for the questions. I can't quite figure out what's keeping extraplanar outsiders off the material plane. Obviously it can't be a simple restriction since I want them to be there in very limited numbers, but I can't just leave it open either. Then they'd show up in too great of numbers. Also, I can't decide on what happens to the deities on the astral plane (and by extension, the plane of shadows). If they retain their divinity, then they could use the astral to reach new planets without risking anything, and that spoils some of the flavor, but I don't know if it's right to have them lose their divinity either. One possibility is to say that when they travel to a non-divine plane, they leave behind all but a spark of their divinity (divine rank 0, or something). In this state, they can be killed, but they only lose 1 divine rank to their attacker. Only divine rank 0 deities would be at serious risk (maybe), but no deity would travel outside of their realm casually. This may work, but I need some help to sort out the consequences. |
| Zebppir09-25-07, 11:07 PM | All right. Some new information and some new questions. So far I've gotten no replies. Is this just too much information? I've been thinking about the elemental planes. I'm leaning towards the elemental tempest (stolen from the future :D). I've also been thinking about the astral plane and how everything fits together. Let's start with the astral plane. When you planeshift to the astral, you end up floating around something that looks like a 3D color pool. It seems to be about the size of a basketball at arms length, but you can't reach it. If you try to move around it, it even moves like a basketball at arms length, but if you try to move closer, it gets bigger and bigger until you fall out of the astral onto that planet. Back in the astral, there are thin strings leading away from the ball out into the distance. These are the various portals and other connections to the other planets and planes. You can follow them through the astral, but it could take a while. From anywhere in the astral, there seems to be an infinite sea of roiling energy below you, no matter which direction below is. If you turn over, all the balls and lines turn over, but the tempest is still below you. If you approach it, you'll eventually end up in the elemental tempest. This is somewhere between the elemental planes and limbo. Amidst the chaos, there are areas that more stable. These look like the old elemental planes. The City of Brass would be located in an area of stable fire, etc. Sore areas are less stable than normal. These act more like the old Limbo; a strong will can impose some order in these regions. Getting back from the elemental tempest, or from any of the deep places (the deep astral, the deep shadow or the deep ethereal) is quite difficult and you are very likely to end up on a different planet unless you really know where you are going. Now for the questions. I can't quite figure out what's keeping extraplanar outsiders off the material plane. Obviously it can't be a simple restriction since I want them to be there in very limited numbers, but I can't just leave it open either. Then they'd show up in too great of numbers. Also, I can't decide on what happens to the deities on the astral plane (and by extension, the plane of shadows). If they retain their divinity, then they could use the astral to reach new planets without risking anything, and that spoils some of the flavor, but I don't know if it's right to have them lose their divinity either. One possibility is to say that when they travel to a non-divine plane, they leave behind all but a spark of their divinity (divine rank 0, or something). In this state, they can be killed, but they only lose 1 divine rank to their attacker. Only divine rank 0 deities would be at serious risk (maybe), but no deity would travel outside of their realm casually. This may work, but I need some help to sort out the consequences. I think it needs a hell and abyss and not to mention demon lords and archfiends Oh and I hope you don't go the 4 Edition route demons and devils isn't corruption vs destruction other than that It looks greats. |
| ArchmageOmega09-26-07, 01:00 AM | I think it needs a hell and abyss and not to mention demon lords and archfiends Oh and I hope you don't go the 4 Edition route demons and devils isn't corruption vs destruction other than that It looks greats. Actually, in this cosmology all of the outer planes become deific planes. That is, planes created by a single deity. So hell and the abyss exist, but they're not quite the same as the great wheel versions. One thing I hadn't mentioned yet is that pantheons of deities would have their individual planes coterminous or coexistent with each other. That means that the abyss would be a large collection of planes each controlled by a demon lord. Hell, on the other hand, would either be ruled by a single devil king or would become a set of layers as well. As for the distinction between demons and devils, I hadn't really got to that yet. Also, the blood war would likely not exist in most parts of the universe, at least, not in the same way. All deities struggle with each other to gain worshipers. The demons and devils are likely to be fairly direct about this. EDIT: Oh yeah. I forget I was also going to add another possibility for how deities spread their influence. Deities could visit other planes through avatars. They invest a portion of their divinity into the avatar, but that avatar is vulnerable, so they have to do so carefully. Anyone could (theoretically) kill the avatar and steal its divinity. I'm not sure I like this option as much since it allows divinity on the material plane. There's probably a way to make it work though. One side idea I like is that deities outside their plane carry their divinity is some material way. Olidammara, for example, may carry his divinity as special coins in his coin purse. This means you could take some of his divinity without actually having to kill him. Picking his pockets would be a highly appropriate way of taking some of Olidammara's divinity, as would getting him to wager some on a game of chance. Of course, neither would be any easier than attempting to kill him. |
| vegetalss409-26-07, 03:42 PM | i got an idee for the positive and negative enagy plane you can use if you like. the stars could be rifts to the positive plane (this is if you have stars at all) and the black holes rift to the negative (same as with the stars). i got an other idee you cpuld make the deities only deities on their own plane. that would explain why the stronger deities (especially evil ones) dont just kill the weaker ones. because they cant kill them without their divine power. so what do you think. it looks good by they way |
| ArchmageOmega09-26-07, 04:43 PM | i got an idee for the positive and negative enagy plane you can use if you like. the stars could be rifts to the positive plane (this is if you have stars at all) and the black holes rift to the negative (same as with the stars). i got an other idee you cpuld make the deities only deities on their own plane. that would explain why the stronger deities (especially evil ones) dont just kill the weaker ones. because they cant kill them without their divine power. so what do you think. it looks good by they way Thanks. I did actually think about making stars vortices to the positive plane, but I didn't think about black holes as the opposite. It'd probably work pretty well actually. I'll probably end up using that unless something comes up that would suggest stars should just be stars. One of the unanswered questions is, why planets orbit stars (or is it the other way around)? As for the deities, I'm not sure what you mean by "they can't kill them without their divine power." Anyway, I already have that deities lose their divinity off of the divine planes. I'm still considering the extent of this and where else they lose their power. (BTW, Kord, minus his divine ranks, still has 40+ class levels, but he's no longer invincible.) EDIT: Oh another possibility is that deities don't actually lose their divinity when they leave their plane, but they do have to carry it materially. See the example with Olidammara and the coins. I'm not sure I like this as much, because it'd be even harder to take them. |
| locustechpriest09-26-07, 09:00 PM | The primary means of moving between these spheres are large, artifact-level portals of unknown origin (actually from many different origins). Have you considered the use of SpellJammer-esque erm... SpellJammers? Magical voidcraft to ferry your populations from world to world? I see you are goning for something of a StarGate feel, but it might be nice to consider other options as well, especially if you want to throw a wrench in the works and *break* a few gates, make travel less guaranteed. Any theories on how gravity is going to function? I would assume gravity's pull will stop about where the air does, for simplicity's sake (although that is a horrible way to do things if you are sensitive about RL sciences, as I am). Would you be using a kind of "crystal sphere" around each world, a la SpellJammer? That would tend to make things much more intuitive, where forces and matter are contained by the sphere, so there is no worrying about *why* gravity simply stops... The plane of shadows is behind the astral plane, somewhat like how the ethereal is behind the material plane[...] Vortices to the astral plane (and possibly the plane of shadows) exist in the void between the spheres. I cannot express how much I like this idea. Simply excellent. ^_^ EDIT: If you take my following suggestion, these vortices give you Stars and Black Holes, respectively. Although I cringe at the misconstruement of calling a BH just a negative energy star. In reality, they are stars commanding enough gravity to bend their own light back into themselves. They only output (non-visible) radiaiton from their axies of rotation, for reasons of which I am not entirely certain. Positive and negative energy are a little harder still, although I'm counting them as elemental planes. I would suggest unifying the Positve and Negative energy planes with the Astral and Shadow, respectively. You needn't make them as deadly as they cannonically are, but "hotspots" would definately be a must. I usually envision the Astral as a luminous mist and the timeless trait could be modified slightly, the concept of never dying in the Astral would work well with the Positive Energy aspect. Also, the Shadow is home to a variety of undead, the Nightshades in particular (who are, IMHO, the coolest of all undead) and would mesh well with negative energy. You could say, loosely put of course, that the multiverse is bound by the forces of creation and entropy, of life and death. ^_^ Are deities deific on the astral plane? I believe the general lore is that the bodies of dead deities are ejected from their deific realms to float in the Astral. If that is any indication of what happens to deities as the move between the planes, then it is either draining, or outright deadly to enter the Astral. Perhaps someting about the nature of being a deity chains it to the location of its worshipers? A deity in its realm is at full strength, because it is effectively in the presence of all its worshipers while there. Few deities have worshipers in the Astral Mists, so going there is equvalent to complete isolation, death. One the material, proximity to devoted worshipers would help to maintain some of the deity's strength. Just a thought to throw out there. @_@ When you planeshift to the astral, you end up floating around something that looks like a 3D color pool. It seems to be about the size of a basketball at arms length, but you can't reach it. If you try to move around it, it even moves like a basketball at arms length, but if you try to move closer, it gets bigger and bigger until you fall out of the astral onto that planet. I am honestly impressed by this description. I have only very rarely witnessed anyone display an understanding of relitivistic spacial compression. Kudos to you. Oh and I hope you don't go the 4 Edition route demons and devils isn't corruption vs destruction other than that It looks greats. Well, you said it backward (though I'm sure you understand it right) that the Devil vs. Demon war is essentially just Corruption vs. Destruction, respectively. I don't know what people have against this as it is the logical definition of their alignments. To each his own, though. One man's blasphemy is another man's passtime... EDIT: ArchmageOmega, you might consider this as one of your many "spheres". Refuse (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=922682). It is designed as an infinite plane, but could work well as an exotic world. ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega09-26-07, 11:36 PM | Have you considered the use of SpellJammer-esque erm... SpellJammers? Magical voidcraft to ferry your populations from world to world? I see you are goning for something of a StarGate feel, but it might be nice to consider other options as well, especially if you want to throw a wrench in the works and *break* a few gates, make travel less guaranteed. At the moment, I have it where gate travel is certainly less than guaranteed, mainly because most of the gates are lost, and almost all of the gate keys are forgotten. Only a few gates are left that are in the open and open all the time. I had also considered Spelljammers although I don't want to just duplicate those. In any case, the void is traversable by some sort of vessel and some powerful creatures. Any theories on how gravity is going to function? I would assume gravity's pull will stop about where the air does, for simplicity's sake (although that is a horrible way to do things if you are sensitive about RL sciences, as I am). Would you be using a kind of "crystal sphere" around each world, a la SpellJammer? That would tend to make things much more intuitive, where forces and matter are contained by the sphere, so there is no worrying about *why* gravity simply stops... Actually, I hadn't thought about gravity yet. I don't really like the idea that gravity just stops either. I had basically assumed that it continued on as normal. If the star is actually a positive/astral vortex, it is probably small enough to orbit the planet instead of the other way around. I cannot express how much I like this idea. Simply excellent. ^_^ EDIT: If you take my following suggestion, these vortices give you Stars and Black Holes, respectively. Although I cringe at the misconstruement of calling a BH just a negative energy star. In reality, they are stars commanding enough gravity to bend their own light back into themselves. They only output (non-visible) radiaiton from their axies of rotation, for reasons of which I am not entirely certain. Thanks. :D One thing about the shadow though is that it'll either distort distance like the astral, or I'll have to think of a good reason why it doesn't. Real black holes are fun to think about, but these would only be black holes by name. That gives a void full of random planets, stars and black holes. I'll have to think about it a little and see if I can't work out some logic for how those fit together (such as why a star would be orbiting a planet). I would suggest unifying the Positive and Negative energy planes with the Astral and Shadow, respectively. You needn't make them as deadly as they cannonically are, but "hotspots" would definately be a must. I usually envision the Astral as a luminous mist and the timeless trait could be modified slightly, the concept of never dying in the Astral would work well with the Positive Energy aspect. Also, the Shadow is home to a variety of undead, the Nightshades in particular (who are, IMHO, the coolest of all undead) and would mesh well with negative energy. You could say, loosely put of course, that the multiverse is bound by the forces of creation and entropy, of life and death. ^_^ I kinda like the idea of making the positive part of the astral and the negative part of the shadow, but would you make the positive between the material and the astral or vice versa? If the astral was between the positive and material, you could say the positive was the deep astral, but I think that puts it too far away from the material plane. Actually making the positive into the astral and negative into the shadow is also possible, like you suggested, but I'm not quite sure I want to lose those two as separate planes. I'll have to look over them again and see whether or not I really mind losing them. Also, there's the problem that they've always felt like elemental planes to me since I don't really equate positive and good, or negative and evil. This is another one I'll have to think about. I believe the general lore is that the bodies of dead deities are ejected from their deific realms to float in the Astral. If that is any indication of what happens to deities as the move between the planes, then it is either draining, or outright deadly to enter the Astral. Perhaps someting about the nature of being a deity chains it to the location of its worshipers? A deity in its realm is at full strength, because it is effectively in the presence of all its worshipers while there. Few deities have worshipers in the Astral Mists, so going there is equvalent to complete isolation, death. One the material, proximity to devoted worshipers would help to maintain some of the deity's strength. Just a thought to throw out there. @_@ That's a good suggestion. I'll probably have to tweak it some, but it makes the astral (one of the some-what safer places for mortals to visits) scary to a deity. :D The actual logic behind it will need a bit of work though, since the astral is arguably closer to the material plane than most of the deities home planes. I am honestly impressed by this description. I have only very rarely witnessed anyone display an understanding of relitivistic spacial compression. Kudos to you. Thanks again :D Well, you said it backward (though I'm sure you understand it right) that the Devil vs. Demon war is essentially just Corruption vs. Destruction, respectively. I don't know what people have against this as it is the logical definition of their alignments. To each his own, though. One man's blasphemy is another man's passtime... Actually, this slightly confused me (Zebppir's post). I think it may have been the lack of punctuation, but it seemed like he was saying that Demon vs. Devil should be Corruption vs. Destruction and wasn't going to be in 4e. I don't think that is what he was saying though, because I thought that was the exact description for 4e. Anyway, in this setting, Demons and Devils are basically just from different places. EDIT: ArchmageOmega, you might consider this as one of your many "spheres". Refuse (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=922682). It is designed as an infinite plane, but could work well as an exotic world. ^_^ I don't think that'd be too fitting, as a planet, but it'd certainly make an interesting deific plane. I'd just have to think up which deity was responsible for it, and then which worshipers were responsible for that deity. ;) Anyway, thanks for the read. Every time I get to talk out the setting it grows a little bit more. :cool: EDIT: Oh yeah, I was talking this out with a friend earlier today and we thought up a (partial) way to deal with the question of why the outsiders keep off the material plane. Part of the answer could be that, like the deities, they lose some power away from their home plane, and unlike deities, they might not be able to get back. One choice for outsiders is to give up their power and connection to their home plane and become a mortal on the material plane. What they become is still up in the air. It might be their own choice, their deities, or it might be something innate to their kind. |
| locustechpriest09-27-07, 08:00 PM | Also, there's the problem that they've always felt like elemental planes to me since I don't really equate positive and good, or negative and evil. This is another one I'll have to think about. I've never seen Positive or Negative as indicative of alignment either. They just seem like light and shadow, neither is in any way good or evil, but they have been snatched up as symbols by various deities simply by nature of their effects upon the world. The actual logic behind it will need a bit of work though, since the astral is arguably closer to the material plane than most of the deities home planes. I was just thinking of it in terms of a special nature of divine realms that it is always the most closely bound to the worshipers, regardless of metaspacial realities. This would explain the utility of such realms in the first palce... unless they are just pretty vacationing spots. Anyway, in this setting, Demons and Devils are basically just from different places. Are you abandoning the differences in method then. I don't mean to be difficult, but I actually do fancy the Blood War and conflict between Law and Chaos... It gives evil more shades, and more to scare your players with. One choice for outsiders is to give up their power and connection to their home plane and become a mortal on the material plane. I will have to play with this idea a little bit, but I can see it has promise. I once read a few pages from BoVD, specifically the part about possession... I don't remember anything really, but this seems similar to what you are talking about. A willing vessel (or one unable to resist, such as a soulless clone [read "gigai" for Bleach fans]) could be inhabited, this would be much easier than actual planar travel (which it appears you want to make nearly impossible otherwise). Essentially, you get a human or mortal body with a demonic or angelic mind. For fiends this would be a process of dominating, and they would tend to take hosts with lower mental scores; for celestials it would be more of a partnership, the two consciousnesses collaborating; in either case, the higher of the scores is taken for each ability (it just tends to always be the outsider's in the case of fiends). I don't know for sure, but you may put on other modifications like adding the half-fiend/celestial or just feindish/celestial templates, but that is up to you. It seems that such extreme influence as possession stands to warp and modify the body over time. At any rate, this would certainly decrease the occurrances of summoning and gating outsiders, making the world more of a mortal's realm, and I do like that idea. ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega09-28-07, 01:40 PM | I've never seen Positive or Negative as indicative of alignment either. They just seem like light and shadow, neither is in any way good or evil, but they have been snatched up as symbols by various deities simply by nature of their effects upon the world. Yeah. I'm still debating if light and darkness are elements, or if they're more fundamental. I was just thinking of it in terms of a special nature of divine realms that it is always the most closely bound to the worshipers, regardless of metaspacial realities. This would explain the utility of such realms in the first palce... unless they are just pretty vacationing spots. Hmm... Perhaps the astral has some draining effect on deities that can be felt on the material plane and in the shadow. (It has about the same effect mechanically.) A deity who loses all their worshipers and divine ranks has their plane dissolve back into the astral, leaving them the option to retreat to the material plane or be cast adrift. The deific planes are coexistent with the planets of their worshipers, so that power can pass through unaffected. I'll have to think about the rest of the details some more though. Are you abandoning the differences in method then. I don't mean to be difficult, but I actually do fancy the Blood War and conflict between Law and Chaos... It gives evil more shades, and more to scare your players with. I wouldn't abandon the differences, but there'd be no real Blood War. I will have to play with this idea a little bit, but I can see it has promise. I once read a few pages from BoVD, specifically the part about possession... I don't remember anything really, but this seems similar to what you are talking about. A willing vessel (or one unable to resist, such as a soulless clone [read "gigai" for Bleach fans]) could be inhabited, this would be much easier than actual planar travel (which it appears you want to make nearly impossible otherwise). Essentially, you get a human or mortal body with a demonic or angelic mind. For fiends this would be a process of dominating, and they would tend to take hosts with lower mental scores; for celestials it would be more of a partnership, the two consciousnesses collaborating; in either case, the higher of the scores is taken for each ability (it just tends to always be the outsider's in the case of fiends). I don't know for sure, but you may put on other modifications like adding the half-fiend/celestial or just feindish/celestial templates, but that is up to you. It seems that such extreme influence as possession stands to warp and modify the body over time. At any rate, this would certainly decrease the occurrances of summoning and gating outsiders, making the world more of a mortal's realm, and I do like that idea. ^_^ Well, possession would be a good option too. It'd be kinda funny for the party to run across some shop somewhere that specialized in gigai. :P It'd be a rarity, but there's got to be one or two somewhere. As for the ones that chose to become mortal, they'd likely return to the material plane in the form of a newborn. They'd probably also get an appropriate template (and likely lose most of their memories). I don't think the possessed people would get one unless they shared their body for several years. I don't want to ban summoning (although I might change gate a bit, just because that function doesn't make much sense), but since summonings don't last very long, I don't think it'll be a real problem. In the end though, the material plane would be largely a mortal realm. (Native outsiders might require a little thought. Are they mortal too?) |
| vegetalss409-28-07, 02:40 PM | what i meant with my cant kill them without rank is that deities are about equally strong i class levels so having their divene rank would make them so much stronger than the others. Even the weak gods, but now i see that they have their power just in some marterial way. but then are they allways deities i thougt you whanted them to be immortal mortals (as in lose all divine power) on the material plane? |
| ArchmageOmega09-28-07, 03:16 PM | Well, I'm still working on it. I do want the deities to be, like you said, immortal mortals. Divine rank 0 minus salient abilities, basically. Perhaps they only carry this spark of divinity as a material object. If that's stolen, they lose a divine rank and are sent back to their plane. If that was their last divine rank, they may just become mortal. I'll need some help with the consequences of this though. Imagine you were playing a divine rank 1 deity in a game in this setting. How would you go about gaining worshippers if going to the material plane was so dangerous for you? You can still communicate with, and grant spells to, your clerics. |
| Paradox_of_Life09-29-07, 03:52 AM | I'm not really much of a campaign builder, so I may be wrong on the estimated value of this suggestion. In regards to the portals, why don't you make a powerful organization that acquires its wealth through the regulation and maintenance of the portals. SCENARIO: On every planet, there is a massive portal that everyone knows about and is basically common knowledge. Around these portals, organization XYZ has fortified it to make it exclusively theirs. They have developed a means of manufacturing and selling travelers little trinkets that act as key to a specific world's massive portal (read: these are pretty much tickets for maneuvering around to specific planets). Around each Planet's fortified portal, there are massive markets, because it is a convenient place to sell goods from their homeworld. The only drawback is that the massive portals are only keyed to the other massive portals. This manifests in two ways: The organization (guild xyz) hires many specialists so that they may offer many services in transportaion, from body guards to mages specializing in teleportation. Since there are other portals to other specific planets, guild xyz would pay your players hansomely for any discoveries made, higher them as bodyguards, or even enlist them in protecting a specific world's portal from a raid. |
| ArchmageOmega09-29-07, 12:19 PM | I like the idea of an organization that's trying to control all the portals, but it'll never be able to succeed. Just to clarify (or I might just be misreading your post), the portals are point to point, unlike a stargate. Also, some portals have no key. They're just always open. (Those are rare though.) The organization would have trouble controlling these since cities have already been built up around them. It's a good idea though, and I'll find some way to work it in. :D |
| locustechpriest09-29-07, 04:58 PM | It would be awsome if they were mostly keyed, IMHO, perhaps there could be a couple of varieties for these gates: Explicit Network Destination (End) and Direct Encoded Entry Point (Deep). Those are possible gate formats, each pioneered by an organization, but adopted by several smaller companies or independent worlds. I would suggest that, if you use them, Deep be rarer and much newer. ^_^ I wouldn't abandon the differences, but there'd be no real Blood War. Glad to hear it. I admit there are alternatives to the BW that could make as or more interesting a world, so I worry no more. Native outsiders might require a little thought. Are they mortal too? Yes, natives are usually mortal. They can also be resurrected freely, although you might make an exception on that count for outsiders incarnate. This process would be by contract, I assume? I imagine that the outsider incarnate would learn of its origin from the foster parent in most such scenarios. I would not suggest a non-consentual method, suffice it to say that it just creeps me out. They'd probably also get an appropriate template [...] I don't think the possessed people would get one unless they shared their body for several years. Agreed and definately. Half- seems most likely for the incarnate (note, I have coined this term for simplicity) as I assume that would be the only real form of fiendish (or celestial) birth. Fiendish is primarily for things born on a different plane, usually those that can be found anywhere normally. (Fiendish housefly swarm for example [I just killed 15 flies... at least].) I can imagine a half-celestial (of less obvious variety) being a prophesied messiah, of sorts. Perhaps the astral has some draining effect on deities [...] The deific planes are coexistent with the planets of their worshipers[...] What I was aiming for is a bit different. Deific realms needn't be coexistent, because I think of worship as being range limited by physical space, and completely cut off by planar boundaries. Normally a deity would have to live within a chief temple (or Mecca) where worship would be heavily concentrated, but modern deities have come up with a solution. The deific realm works as an infinite capture device that renders the range limit of worship void while the deity is in the realm. Essentially, regardless of physical distance and planar boundaries, the deity recieves all worship rendered across the multiverse. My reasoning with the Astral being deadly is that few deities have any worshipers in the Astral (or Shadow, for that matter). This renders them effectively worshipless (remember, theoretically worship is cut off at planar bounds), which canonically kills them outright, IIRC. That could explain their reluctance to travel the planes (unless that had an escort of several thousand worshipers =3). They would have to have direct (non-Astral dependant) planar borders, or other means to access the material without traveling through the no-fly zone. (Which, yes that would make a coexistent deific realm be the safest bet for a god wishing to travel the Material.) I hope that clarifies my theory. ^_^ |
| Paradox_of_Life09-29-07, 08:21 PM | I like the idea of an organization that's trying to control all the portals, but it'll never be able to succeed. Just to clarify (or I might just be misreading your post), the portals are point to point, unlike a stargate. Also, some portals have no key. They're just always open. (Those are rare though.) The organization would have trouble controlling these since cities have already been built up around them. It's a good idea though, and I'll find some way to work it in. :D Awesome. Make the Organization xyz into something growing? |
| ArchmageOmega09-30-07, 01:30 AM | It would be awsome if they were mostly keyed, IMHO, perhaps there could be a couple of varieties for these gates: Explicit Network Destination (End) and Direct Encoded Entry Point (Deep). Sorry. I couldn't quite follow that. Can you explain the three types a bit better? Those are possible gate formats, each pioneered by an organization, but adopted by several smaller companies or independent worlds. I would suggest that, if you use them, Deep be rarer and much newer. ^_^ See my above comment, but another clarification (although I'm probably just misreading something). Most of the gates predate most of the current deities. Some of the gates were created by the deities. A very few were created by mortals. Yes, natives are usually mortal. They can also be resurrected freely, although you might make an exception on that count for outsiders incarnate. This process would be by contract, I assume? I imagine that the outsider incarnate would learn of its origin from the foster parent in most such scenarios. I would not suggest a non-consentual method, suffice it to say that it just creeps me out. Actually, I was thinking of something like what happened to Kurama in Yuu-Yuu Hakusho. It's basically a form of reincarnation really. It'd be an option that most outsiders would skip because it means losing all their powers and becoming a baby. I imagine that this'd really need its own set of templates. One template for when an outsider reincarnates and another for when a mortal and an outsider have a child. The latter would be the Half- template. I guess the first would be an -Incarnate template? Applied naively, this assumption would create two templates for every outsider, but I imagine it wouldn't be hard to make the templates general enough to handle a large set of similar outsiders. Agreed and definately. Half- seems most likely for the incarnate (note, I have coined this term for simplicity) as I assume that would be the only real form of fiendish (or celestial) birth. Fiendish is primarily for things born on a different plane, usually those that can be found anywhere normally. (Fiendish housefly swarm for example [I just killed 15 flies... at least].) I can imagine a half-celestial (of less obvious variety) being a prophesied messiah, of sorts. I'm not sure I understand this suggestion. What I was aiming for is a bit different. Deific realms needn't be coexistent, because I think of worship as being range limited by physical space, and completely cut off by planar boundaries. Normally a deity would have to live within a chief temple (or Mecca) where worship would be heavily concentrated, but modern deities have come up with a solution. The deific realm works as an infinite capture device that renders the range limit of worship void while the deity is in the realm. Essentially, regardless of physical distance and planar boundaries, the deity recieves all worship rendered across the multiverse. My reasoning with the Astral being deadly is that few deities have any worshipers in the Astral (or Shadow, for that matter). This renders them effectively worshipless (remember, theoretically worship is cut off at planar bounds), which canonically kills them outright, IIRC. That could explain their reluctance to travel the planes (unless that had an escort of several thousand worshipers =3). They would have to have direct (non-Astral dependant) planar borders, or other means to access the material without traveling through the no-fly zone. (Which, yes that would make a coexistent deific realm be the safest bet for a god wishing to travel the Material.) I hope that clarifies my theory. ^_^ It does, but I don't think it fits too well with what I've already got. I think the main problem is that it would imply that deities should be most powerful on the material plane with no boundaries between them and their worshipers. Hmm... how about this as an alternative. Divine rank and divine realms are actually created out of the astral material by the belief in their existence. Away from their realm, deities don't have that connection to the source of their power. If they're dropped in the astral plane, their power will dissolve away, back to where it came from. Actually, that doesn't sound quite right either. I'll have to add this to the list of things to work on. Looking at it from a mechanical point of view may help. (This is meta-game. It'll still need a good in-game explanation.) Let's say that a character discovers the secret lore granting him access to an ascendant class (although it'd happen basically the same way no matter how he achieved divine rank 0). When he gains enough levels to be granted divine rank 0, he also gets a free casting of Genesis (basically, although it may be a more powerful version). Okay. I was going to walk through a little more of what happens mechanically, but I'm having a little trouble making it coherent. It might be better if you could ask some mechanical questions, since I seem to be able to phrase things better when answering. :P Arg. I might have been too distracted while writing some of this. Let me know if I'm not making sense. Anyway, I'll think some of this over and try to write it out when I can think straight. |
| locustechpriest09-30-07, 07:13 AM | Can you explain the three types a bit better? [...] Most of the gates predate most of the current deities. I see. I was thinking that perhaps the method of their operation was up to the, erm... operator. So that the gate provides the power and the operator provides the direction. I was only suggesting two operation formats, actually. End Protocol uses predefined destinations and can only target other God Gates under the operators control, thus making it a gate to gate operation. Deep Protocol can target any point in space, given accurate coordinates. It would be a new and difficult method of operation that has not become widely know. You might not want to have then work that way. I realize it is a bit wierd. Actually, I was thinking of something like what happened to Kurama in Yuu-Yuu Hakusho. Actually, that sounds excellent. I like the way you put it there. I agree, now that you mention it, about the half- versus -incarnate distinction. Please ignore everything else about outsiders, I like yours much better. ^_^ I think the main problem is that it would imply that deities should be most powerful on the material plane with no boundaries between them and their worshipers. If it isn't too crude, you might have physical distance from the worshipers count as well. For example, on the Material, if the deity is wading amid an army of his worshipers, he is pretty pumped. Not at full power, but a force to be reckoned with. If he is several hundred miles from any large concentration of worshipers though, he is almost powerless. Entirely open to attack. |
| ArchmageOmega09-30-07, 01:28 PM | I see. I was thinking that perhaps the method of their operation was up to the, erm... operator. So that the gate provides the power and the operator provides the direction. I was only suggesting two operation formats, actually. End Protocol uses predefined destinations and can only target other God Gates under the operators control, thus making it a gate to gate operation. Deep Protocol can target any point in space, given accurate coordinates. It would be a new and difficult method of operation that has not become widely know. You might not want to have then work that way. I realize it is a bit wierd. I see what you mean now; however, I was just planning on using portals as they're already defined in various WotC books. (Stronghold builders guide book, and one of the Faerun books for two.) I suppose that I could rewrite that though. If so, it'd provide a good distinction between the mortals' gates (small, fixed-point gates), etc. It'd take a lot of work to balance though. For now, I'll stick with what's already there, but I may revisit this later. If it isn't too crude, you might have physical distance from the worshipers count as well. For example, on the Material, if the deity is wading amid an army of his worshipers, he is pretty pumped. Not at full power, but a force to be reckoned with. If he is several hundred miles from any large concentration of worshipers though, he is almost powerless. Entirely open to attack. Hmm... It sounds like a really good idea actually, but I'm not sure whether or not I like the implications. First it'd mean that the deities are near (that is, everyone knows for a fact that they exist) and I was trying to go for something a little different. Second, it'd make holy wars fairly common. I'm undecided on that one too. |
| ArchmageOmega10-01-07, 04:24 PM | I'm starting a web page to help me better organize my thoughts on this. I'm going to need some help though (with the organization and content, not the HTML). I've gotten a lot of good ideas from the discussion here so far, so I hope that it'll continue. Anyway, the website is http://www.geocities.com/magi256/cosmology/. Right now, I'm just working on the Table of Contents. Any suggestions so far? |
| locustechpriest10-01-07, 08:08 PM | Hmm, yep, that's pretty much just a table of contents ATM, but I look forward to seeing the results (so far). Second, it'd make holy wars fairly common. I'm undecided on that one too. I for one, being the proponent of the mindless slaughter of the Blood War, would greatly enjoy seeing holy wars lead by a deity and half-a-dozen of his proxies. I imagine a giant God of War, wading among the enemy lines, thousands behind him inspired by his mere presence, delivering an Awsome Blow (feat) in conjunction with Sweeping Strike (class feature, although I'm not sure if this is legal)... "and I think to myself what a wonderful world!" Anyway, if you favor more distant deities, then this method would present a problem indeed. I take it you are aiming for more of an Asgard type influence than a Goa'uld domination... |
| ArchmageOmega10-01-07, 09:58 PM | Hmm, yep, that's pretty much just a table of contents ATM, but I look forward to seeing the results (so far). I for one, being the proponent of the mindless slaughter of the Blood War, would greatly enjoy seeing holy wars lead by a deity and half-a-dozen of his proxies. I imagine a giant God of War, wading among the enemy lines, thousands behind him inspired by his mere presence, delivering an Awsome Blow (feat) in conjunction with Sweeping Strike (class feature, although I'm not sure if this is legal)... "and I think to myself what a wonderful world!" Anyway, if you favor more distant deities, then this method would present a problem indeed. I take it you are aiming for more of an Asgard type influence than a Goa'uld domination... Hehe :) Yeah, that's one way of putting it. Actually, I think it'd be a little more like the old Greek deities. Zeus was famous for wandering around in various disguises. I keep imagining the struggle deities would have to go through to gain worshipers. They can't simply appear before them and claim "I AM PELOR! WORSHIP ME!" :D For one thing, all of their enemies would dog pile them. It could even make playing deific characters interesting. How they gain worshipers would be up to the individual deities, but it wouldn't be easy in any case. Still, the holy wars could still occur, but it'd have to take place somewhere else. (I don't know where that'd be though.) |
| ArchmageOmega10-02-07, 10:11 PM | Alright. I've made significant updates to the webpage, and I'll continue to work on it. If you see anything on there that doesn't make sense or that seems out of place, please let me know (just post here). On the topic of things to do, I was reading over the divine ranks and powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) page and it feels like I'm going to have to rewrite it completely. It did give me a decent idea though. What if the divine realms were not part of the astral plane? Instead, they could be coexistant with the relevant planets and, at the deity's option, coterminous with the astral. |
| locustechpriest10-03-07, 04:00 PM | I see you adopted the term "voidcraft". You have no idea how happy that makes me! ^_^ I remember an episode of StarTrek, the series with Jean Luc Picard, in which some alien voidray or similar ray-like creature was found which lived in space, fed off of the power from the Enterprise. Mistook the craft for its mother. =) Also, in the Monster Mayhem articles there was a void related guy, let's see if I can dig up a link... "Dwellers of the Void" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031219a), that seems fitting. |
| ArchmageOmega10-04-07, 06:31 PM | I'll use it for now at least. :D I remember that episode too. Creatures like that would be interesting. I'm not sure whether or not the Dwellers fit. I'll certainly think about it though. |
| locustechpriest10-04-07, 07:39 PM | I'm amazed. We seem to have similar lists of influences. Oh yes, I put a little more thought into the deities issue. What if you simply bind a deity to its realm? Demigods get Possess Mortal SDA for free, then Avatar in addition when they become Lesser Powers. Then roaming the planes is actually sending an avatar, it's risky cause they are at half your strength, and it takes a year to make one (not bad for an immortal, but still), and they you can have a rank stolen if they are killed in just such a way. Also, have possessed beings count against the Avatar limit (because, in all honesty, they are Avatars..). There was a suggestion in the Web enhancement for the Fiendish Codex (I believe that's right) that Avatars of the same entity be supernaturally compelled to attack one another if they come within range of their senses. This would compensate for the fact the 5+ can be made, and each have exactly half the creator's Divine Rank. That way no deity can pool his powers. It's useful to think of Divine Rank as something like pH as well. An acid of pH 4 is ten times worse than one of pH 5, similarly, a deity of DR 5 might be ten times as potent as one of DR 4. ;) |
| ArchmageOmega10-07-07, 12:05 AM | Hmm... the avatar thing would work, but it'd need to be changed quite a bit. First, giving the avatar even 1 divine rank is too much. Also, I may make it so that a deity can only control 1 avatar per plane/planet/something. I don't know exactly what would happen if two ended up in the same place though. In compensation though, I think I'll make it so they don't take so long to create. Also, if I use this, the divinity invested in an avatar could be taken from it (instead of directly from the deity). |
| ArchmageOmega10-09-07, 02:54 PM | What would the consequences of making a deity's power (divine rank) based on the number of souls they collect, assuming they get the souls of their worshipers when they die? Evil deities could send their worshippers on holy wars to get them killed quicker for one thing. Can anyone see any other consequences of this? |
| locustechpriest10-09-07, 10:29 PM | Reincarnation is essentially out. Transforming your petitioners into angels or other servitors is somewhat impractical, unless you have a steady and assured supply. Resurrection, though still viable, would be even more frowned upon. Essentially, death becomes more permanent, now that your deity relies upon it almost exclusively for power. |
| ArchmageOmega10-09-07, 11:45 PM | Well, I was thinking that reincarnation was beyond the deity's control for the most part, and that they might let a character be resurrected if doing so would gain them more worshippers, but that'd be the deity's choice. It'd be an interesting reason why not just anybody would be resurrected. I need to think up a good mechanism for reincarnation though, or at least some reason a deity would allow it if it wasn't beyond their control. |
| locustechpriest10-10-07, 01:08 PM | Indeed. I have a feeling that great prophets will see a greater rate of resurrection than the simple rich believer. Resurrection is, however, outside the reach of most normal folk, thankfully. =) Reincarnation, and things of that matter, are usually not too predictable in terms of who is chosen. I imagine that a petitioner could return after a century while another might remain in his Lord's presence for aeons. The predictable part, if any, would be proportion of souls released. You might go with something as simple as a quarter of the population being switched out randomly over the course of each millenium. There is no certainty of ever being "chosen", but chances are your time will come around eventually... Anyway, back to the root issue. I would say that the number of petitioners should be a contributing factor, yes; but make sure that living worshipers have a continuing influence, other than just being the future dead. Otherwise your gods would be nothing more than an afterlife, probably much more like Boccob, who has no agenda in the mortal world. Also, consider if a deity were to discover a method of suppressing the natural cycle of reincarnation. What would that do to his policies on life? Would that harm the fabric of the multiverse? Would said god form vast armies of servitor outsiders to coherce mortals into belief simply to murder them in their sleep the next night? ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega10-10-07, 07:25 PM | Well, I think they'd still have an agenda, since they need to gather worshipers to be the future dead. One of my friends said, who'd want elves for worshipers then? Get some humans, they die quicker. :D I don't know. I suppose there needs to be something different than just the gathered souls. Maybe elf souls stick around longer? Or maybe deities are powered by the collected life experiences of the souls they gather (old souls come by less often but are worth more)? A deity that managed to suppress the natural cycle of reincarnation would make an interesting deific campaign. |
| locustechpriest10-11-07, 02:50 AM | Yes, I do believe that more experienced souls are more wholesome. By agenda, I actually meant a world-changing mission type of thing. While converting the entire world to your worship is a nice goal, I meant more along the lines of wanting to set up sources of magical light everywhere or gather all mortal knowledge into gigantic libraries... godly things. |
| ArchmageOmega10-11-07, 10:36 AM | Wouldn't they still try to do such things as a means to gain more worshipers? |
| locustechpriest10-11-07, 11:49 PM | You might have me there. And I suppose they can't just send their servitors to intimidate people into worship, not in your cosmology, since outsiders cannot easily manifest in the material. At any rate, it encourages what I would consider to be a backward world view in your deities minds. It seems perfectly fine for evil gods, but the good ones should care for the quality of life that their worshipers are experiencing, rather than the quantity of death. ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega10-12-07, 05:54 PM | Yeah, I know what you mean. All my ideas seem to favor evil deities, but I think it might still work since improving the quality of your worshippers lives would mean they live longer and attract more worshippers. Still, there may be other, unforseen, consequences to this that makes it less than feasible. |
| locustechpriest10-12-07, 06:48 PM | Erring toward Evil is nothing to appologize for, my friend. ^,,^ Quantity and fervency of worship, be it from the living or dead would seem pertainent. The living beg for attention, the dead beg for inattention. Muhahaha! Anyway, I would limit it to mortals and petitioners, as they are worthless for anything else (wow, proofreading, this looks so callous..). Other servants are powerful in their own right, so they shouldn't add to a divinity's, erm... divinity. That takes the focus off of that fine line of death and leaves the question of personal style up to each god-creature individually. |
| Lokiyn10-12-07, 11:21 PM | Ok so let’s see Material Plane, Normal Set up However fixed artificial portals connect worlds, rather than natural portals connecting the planes. There are many possible small portals but always one “big Portal”. Deities lose their divine powers on the material plane. Divinity is gained Worship Theft Enlightenment With Divinity comes a small spherical plane 180 feet in radius that may or may not expand at the rate of a foot a week (depending on which of the three versions of genesis we are using Psionic(Expanded Psionic Handbook) Cleric(Tome of Magic) Arcane {Epic level Handbook)As a note, the old version of genesis for clerics was a domain spell, and with the domain changed to have pavilion of grandeur rather than genesis is no longer viable using the latest rules These planes are coterminous with the planes that the deity has significant worshipers[indent]Perhaps the plane has natural portals to the largest point of worship on each plane, so each deity has the ability to easily move between their main temples on each plane, but must find other ways to travel to other locations on the plane. The ethereal plane follows planescape rules, with each plane having a shallow ethereal resting in a deep ethereal sea. The Astral is an overarching transitive plane that connects everything, however travel through it is difficult and unreliable (much like unmarked woods it lacks defined paths) The Shadow Sounds like a more compressed version of the astral, perhaps offering quicker travel but more dangers. While the Astral seems to be much like the idealized version of a quasi-universal nervous system (with planets being nodes, and the tendrils synapses) it seems that the basic idea is that the nodes resist foreign intrusion requiring the utmost care to attempt to enter or be forced out of the node entirely for a time as the universe backlashes as you attempt to enter a lower energy state. One possibility is that if deities gain complete dominance over a sphere, the sphere merges with other spheres completely under the control of the deity, in a sort of divine gravity of worship. This is similar to the raven loft demises of the dread lords, where the realm started off small but adds to itself over time. With this concept the planes would start smallish, maybe only a few dozen to a hundred square miles, which with worship to a deity would merge with other planes with the same worship to create a sort of katamatri of worship, as a result the belief in deities creates larger planes on the material, In planes that are under multiple deities there would be a clandestine war among the faithful to convert the others, With the side who one moving to merge with the “utopia” of their god (the Aggregate sphere). Similarly one could break pieces off of these aggregates by converting a significant portion of the aggregate off to your worship, in which cast the sphere would shrink while yours grew. From the astral one would see large color nodes with tendrils of varying thickness leading to different other nodes. These tendrils are the chains of belief, Each node with a god lets off tendrils that seek planes with similar beliefs, and the strength of these beliefs similarities directly affects the thickness and length of the tendril, which also affects the travel time. It’s easier to travel from a sphere who believes in rain gods to another sphere that believes in rain gods than it is to travel to say a desert sun god. So on the astral gods suffer two limitations Their destinations are limited by their starting point, tendrils link similar nodes, so often the differing gods of the same type compete with each other for worshipers more than dissimilar gods Secondly Nodes not Already aligned with the deity in question resist penetration from the deity as a sort of universal reflex, As a result there is a backlash of energies drawn from the fathomless tempest to create a sort of guardian. These guardians tend to match their opponent in strength and are a sort of universal antibody that resists and reacts to divine intrusions. If the god is able to defeat his enemy he can then enter the realm and begin his works directly (sans direct divinity of course), if he fails he is uninjured but locked out of the node for a span of time (Say a year and a day?), as the node develops a temporary "immunity" to that particular god for a time. More importantly gods are unable to use the portals connecting worlds together, the portals are unable to handle the god’s divine nature and eject them into the astral outside the node. As a result most god’s interactions with other realms are limited to proxies such as clerics, paladins, mercenaries, etc. Except for realms that are aligned in belief to their own. Or something like that If a god removes their divinity, they can use the portals, but are unable to regain their divinity until they return to wherever they cached it. Divine power is limited to the Size of the Sphere each deity commands, Since each sphere is limited in size by the number of living creatures in it, as well as its sum parts deities have this to worry about. The deity doesn’t quite draw power from the worshipers, but from the interaction between the spheres and the elemental tempest (the Spheres acting to convert raw tempest energies into divine power with each spheres ability to do so limit by its size and purity. Number of parts, Suppose each sphere’s area is represented by X, with “X” being the number of smaller independent spheres drawn into the gods aggregate utopia. Furthermore, consider that the size of X is related to the number of worshipers living on X with a minimum value and a maximum value. So each gods territory is modeled by something like this DvR = ((Number of Parts) * (Percent Size of each part from its maximum)) Each part merges into the aggregate utopia if its worship ratio is greater than 50%, each Ratio after merger goes from [.51-1]. Meaning gods who are minimal about maintaining worship can be exceeded by more caring gods, or acquisitive gods. Example god A had converted 5 base spheres to his worship with more than 50% of the worshipers on his side. Not particularly concerned with worship his overall worshipers (including past dead) never rises above say a 60% ratio. (Dead count as whatever they died believing, however they can be reset to neutral through reincarnation, unfortunately each nonbeliever reincarnated means a dead believer must be reincarnated as well.) So his DvR Value is 5*.6 or 3 (not ranks just a value that is converted to ranks by another scale, probably a geometric scale of some sort) On the other hand god B is a little more caring and with 4 parts, has a worship ratio of .8, this gives him a DvR value of 3.2 which means that he is slightly more powerful than god A, even though he has less portions under his control. In theory you would take another equation linked to divine ranks and use the DvR to determine ranks, with more and more DvR needed for each rank (diminishing returns) An example of this is as follows Using a simple formula y = 3.5066Ln(x) + 1 Y= Divine Ranks X= DvR Value We get the following Results Ranks DvR 01 1.00 02 1.33 03 1.77 04 2.36 05 3.13 06 4.17 07 5.54 08 7.37 09 9.80 10 13.03 11 17.32 12 23.04 13 30.64 14 40.75 15 54.20 16 72.08 17 95.86 18 127.50 19 169.57 20 225.52 Which means while it is relatively easy to progress from a low divine rank to another (say 1-5) it gets harder and harder to go up the ranks the farther you go, for example at minimum worship rates, you would need 340 spheres worshiping you to achieve rank 19 and would have to aquire 112 more spheres (a full third more) to reach Divine Rank 20. And thats with other godlings working to steal your worshipers away. |
| locustechpriest10-13-07, 12:42 PM | Interesting. So you suggest a sphere-centric measure of deific power? That is something that I hadn't thought of. The ribbons are interesting, definately makes astral travel a bit more flavorful with a network of interconnected sphere-nodes. You have given the astral something of an interplanetay computer flavor... are you one amid Humma Kavula's congregation? Or perhaps you seek the question to the ultimate answer? That aside, the concept of spheres being the divine distilleries for raw tempest energies is something I will have to mull over for a bit. Definately some potential in that one. :) PS: That has to be the first time I have seen someone use the natural log outside of a mathematics classroom. Congrats! ;) |
| Lokiyn10-13-07, 02:14 PM | From the description of the Astral in this cosmology it appeared less and less like a series of independent Planets hanging in a void to more of a sort of universal nervous system with the planets being "cells" of the brain. its just a small step then to have the "cells" be linked to other "cells" with similar traits, with each "cells" traits determined by the worship and belief structure of its inhabitants (sort of its dna) Dieties are sort of a virus like structure that invade and alter the natural formation of these "cell" turning them into a sort of "cancer" or an aggregate clump of cells. Although gods desire worshipers, the mechanics of power is not that the power is generated through worship itself, but is the result of the natural energies of each "cell" being harvested, as a result each god, to gain more power, needs more "cells" or "cells" better attuned to his divine energies. Which means the conversion of more spheres through worshipers. Of course, with this the gods are very unnatural beings from the universal view point, and infection residing in a cyst leeching off the energies of aligned spheres. |
| locustechpriest10-13-07, 02:46 PM | Aye, so then it comes down to the role and nature of divinity. Is it an ultimate leech organism, or a cosmic guardian? Do the deities oversee the flow of souls in order to maintain an ineffible balance, or is it just a side effect of their greed and hunger? You have challenged my thinking. :) |
| Lokiyn10-13-07, 03:52 PM | I think it might depend of the type of god? Consider the following two gods a Lawful God of prosperityThis god believes that by collecting enough nodes and using his power that he can compress the spheres to the point where they Achieve a sort of mass and plung into the tempest, where the fires of creation will forge the spheres from a collection into a pure world based on the ideals of his worshipers. A Chaotic god of warThis god believes in conquest and conquest alone like a disease he gathers the men of his spheres and drives them through the portals forging armies of conquest launching waves of men through to different spheres each new conquest merely fuel for further conquest, each sphere containing only the minimal number of people needed to breed and grow food for a vast interplanar war machine. The people worship thier god not to gain his blessings, but in order to avert punishments. From the astral plane it would look like almost like an ooze composed of planes moving slowly down the tendrils of the astral with pieces being absorbed and being broken off as the number of survivors in the planes fall below the minumim needed to sustain thier position in the aggregate sphere. Note that this would be what the gods see. from a mortals perspective thier homes ill defined misty borders would clear to reveal new lands sharing belief in the same god, or even a mix of one god and another, and when the belief fell the mists would return and the lands fade away With this the "main" portal would be the portal in the original land of the diety, which would grow in size and function the more spheres added. The portal could be used for local transport to the other realms added to the Aggregate or back to the central piece, but only the main portal could be used to travel to other spheres not in the Aggregate. Or something like that, its just a loose idea roughly based on how ravenloft expanded and shrunk. For example, Assume that each sphere has a "well" A circular portal in the form of a deep well Using the well can be as simple as walking down the steps which somehow becomes walking up the steps of another well in another sphere, (its a little more difficult if you want to alter the natural destination of a well). If a realm joins with the gods home sphere its well changes into a door and a door forms around the well. (in other words two upright stones with a crosspiece) you can use the door to travel to and from the main god sphere to the joined spheres but not from a door to another doores destination. |
| locustechpriest10-13-07, 06:32 PM | I guess one could write us some kind of grand unification theory of divinity. Did you come up with the "spheres are distilleries" thing yourself or did you get it from a sourcebook/person? Like I said before, it never occurred to me that a world itself might be like a "vat", while the mortal souls are "yeast" rather than sources of the divine "liquor". Metaphors aside, this is something that will greatly aid me, as I was absently focused just now on this new ancient mystery, the nature of divinity. :D Here we go! Ambient energies of the elemental tempest are leaked into the material, where spheres act as catalysts, turning the energies into divine essence. The beliefs of mortal souls direct this essence toward the objects of their belief. Souls of the dead naturally follow the paths of divine essence, ending up in their deity's divine realm. As petitioners, they "feed" the essence into their masters, acting as the recievers for the emenations of the living world. Deities naturally seek to incease thier following on any given sphere. In order to maintain a critical mass of souls, deities direct the reincarnation of beings, ensuring that sufficient souls are present to direct all incoming essence... preferrably toward them. A small number of souls are spontaneously generated out of the positive energy wells upon the material: stars. Together these new and old souls find their way into newborn life, and enter into the world as the next generation, to continue the eternal cycle! PS, Lokiyn, it's good to have a third guy here. Helps to balance us out! |
| Lokiyn10-13-07, 07:17 PM | Some it it is from planescape some of it from homebrew fluff, if i recall correctly it went like this The ethereal is that from which all matter springs The inner planes, Earth, air, water, fire, positive, negative, were formed from the ethereal and then combined to form the material from parts of all 6 basic energies as well as the protoplasm. Mortal sentiance created the astral, Mortals acted as conduits to the infinite primal energies, Thier belief allows energy to flow into the astral, from the astral ectoplasm and this belief tainted primal energies the outerplanes formed, shaped from the beliefs of mortals (which is why some planes are so similar to the material just "bigger" "better" "*Blank*-Er" versions of the material.) gods came in two forms, mortals who stumbled into this energy transfer and were empowered, and gods who were formmed in much the same way as the outer planes. gods who formed were more powerful and shaped the material plane further, however the "self made" gods being once mortal had creativity and eventuall brought down the more powerful "ideal" gods ususally through the maniuplation of life (thus belief) This helped explain why so many races are basically similar and share similar though processes. Sprinkle in some monsters cataclysms, lost empires, fallen gods, toss in and adventuring party and enter the campaign. I suppose a good analogy could be drawn partially from the vikings The elemental Tempest is a "Sun" The material plane is a "Tree" (Thus draws its energy from the "Sun") The Ethereal is the "Soil" (Source of Matter) The Astral is the "Air" Mortals are like the "water/rain" that the tree uses to grow Deities tap the "sap" (distilled life energy) and partake in the near infinite power of the source. ~or something like that~ Mortals really couldn't explain it, and gods aren't talking ;) |
| Lokiyn10-13-07, 07:25 PM | I guess the main point is that i never bought the idea that worship powers gods, that may be the surface explaination but i always though it had to be more than that, this led to the idea that there is Energy "X" the primal energies or so. Its fatal for anything physical to maniplulate to gods had to use mortals to focus or distill the energies into something they can manipulate. This also helps explain other gods whose power is in tools or something like the "Font of divinity" All of them are just tools to harness the power of the prime, its just that mortals are easier to use than the divinely epic task of crafting a physical tool that can directly siphon power from the primals. (Sorry about the double post, i had this thought a few after i posted the other) |
| ArchmageOmega10-14-07, 01:08 AM | Some very interesting ideas there. First off, one of the big ones that I can't really use (but I might can take some inspiration from) is that the spheres (aka, planets; I keep mixing my terms up) can merge. At least for this setting, I just can't imagine two spheres merging without it being some absolutely cataclysmic event. Also, one small misconception to clear up; the giant, always open portals aren't one per world. They're very rare overall. (Just thought I'd point that out in case you wanted to use this setting.) Alright, now the stuff I especially like. :D The idea that mortals act to distill divine energy from somewhere (possibly the elemental tempest or maybe the astral) is very cool. I'll certainly try and make use of that. Also, the idea that the astral (and maybe all the other non-divine planes) are somehow alive is also very cool. Together they could provide a good explaination for why the deities couldn't go to the non-divine planes easily. I think the deities need to have some important role in the maintenance of the universe somehow, but I still can't really think of a good explaination for that. Phew. I've got too much other stuff to do tonight to read all that carefully, so I've probably missed a few things. I'll go over it again when I have more time. Thanks for the ideas, and I hope you'll continue to help develop this. BTW, I emailed the Wizards submission to ask if they'd like this developed as a full blown setting. It's highly unlikely they'll say yes (but it'd be cool if they did ;)). Anyway, point being, I'm waiting on their reply before I begin updating the website again. :P More likely, I'll end up sending in some adventures that take advantage of the setting instead. Just thought I'd let yall know. :D |
| locustechpriest10-14-07, 07:35 AM | (Ran to the convenience store, now I have muffins and I'm ready to go!) Concerning the ribbons of distilled energies... first thing, of course, being whether or not they are the same thing. I gathered before that the ribbons connect spheres with similar belief, and also the divine realms to which they would correspond. Are the ribbons the same thing as the flow of purified essence? If so, then we can surmise that the flow of essence does not differentiate between similar deities, or even between divine realms and spheres, being drawn to any point of similar constitution. It would tend to get relayed between similar spheres until it reaches a divine realm (where it stops). This would cause deities to benefit not only from the belief of their own worshipers, but worshipers of similar faith as well. Therefore, I could see there being a lot of hatred between gods of similar faith, unless there is a standing agreement. In that instance, it doesn't matter in the least what name you attach to your belief, so gods wouldn't fight for recognition of names, but belief in their ideals. They would fight less of a conversion war and would instead tend to duke it out in the heavens, sending servants into one another's divine realm to steal of kill off as many petitioners as possible. Remember, if my theory is to be trusted, petitioners capture incoming essence and feed that into their deity. A lack of petitioners would allow that essence to be relayed once more, potentially ending up at a rival deity's doorstep. This has the problem that I cannot guarantee that a soul will journey to its specific deity's realm, unless it is the only one networked under that portfolio. Hopefully, very closely related gods are rare, or all allied by now. :) PS, Arch, good luck on the submission! |
| ArchmageOmega10-15-07, 06:05 PM | (Ran to the convenience store, now I have muffins and I'm ready to go!) Concerning the ribbons of distilled energies... first thing, of course, being whether or not they are the same thing. I gathered before that the ribbons connect spheres with similar belief, and also the divine realms to which they would correspond. Are the ribbons the same thing as the flow of purified essence? If so, then we can surmise that the flow of essence does not differentiate between similar deities, or even between divine realms and spheres, being drawn to any point of similar constitution. It would tend to get relayed between similar spheres until it reaches a divine realm (where it stops). This would cause deities to benefit not only from the belief of their own worshipers, but worshipers of similar faith as well. Therefore, I could see there being a lot of hatred between gods of similar faith, unless there is a standing agreement. In that instance, it doesn't matter in the least what name you attach to your belief, so gods wouldn't fight for recognition of names, but belief in their ideals. They would fight less of a conversion war and would instead tend to duke it out in the heavens, sending servants into one another's divine realm to steal of kill off as many petitioners as possible. Remember, if my theory is to be trusted, petitioners capture incoming essence and feed that into their deity. A lack of petitioners would allow that essence to be relayed once more, potentially ending up at a rival deity's doorstep. This has the problem that I cannot guarantee that a soul will journey to its specific deity's realm, unless it is the only one networked under that portfolio. Hopefully, very closely related gods are rare, or all allied by now. :) Hmm... I'm not sure I like the idea that the universe cares what kind a deity is. I don't think similar deities should have any direct effect on each other. Anyway, I still haven't managed to sort through all the new ideas yet. Some of what was written has several points tied up together and it'll take me a while to untie them. PS, Arch, good luck on the submission! Thanks. I doubt anything will come of it but it's worth a shot. :D |
| locustechpriest10-16-07, 02:18 PM | Anyway, I still haven't managed to sort through all the new ideas yet. Some of what was written has several points tied up together and it'll take me a while to untie them. Ah, so you are studying hard. :embarrass I just tend to roll with half formed ideas of what was just said... I'm so worthless. :D |
| locustechpriest10-17-07, 09:38 PM | Hey Archmage, could you edit the link to your Geocities into the OP? That would make it really quick and easy to find, especially for newcomers (or me). I've been watching a LOT of anime and doing a LOT of gaming, so I appologise for not being around to annoy you with continuous suggstions. Especially considering that you are probably still confused by the other things I have tried to say... :P --- I was thinking about crystal spheres (and from the look of your site it seems you haven't decided on using them, which is fine). Turns out I had it a bit wrong in my head. I thought they encased a planet in Spelljammer, but they surround a system. If you wanted to, you could go with almost RL planetary systems, saying the breach (star/darkstar) is the source of the sphere, thus fixing it in the middle. Add gravity, and make the starspheres swirl around with one another, and you have a galaxy. :) The closest planets can be seen with the naked eye, although only large terrain features are visible. With a telescope, farther planets and smaller features can be made out. With a masterwork telescope, any planet in the same system can be seen on a good night. Distant crystal spheres are what we see as stars. Those generated from positive breaches appear to glow, and those from negative appear as a dark splotch. The void itself radiates a mild glow, making negative spheres visible, but one's own sphere is perfectly transparent from the inside, and does not affect perception in that direction. Interestingly, the crystal spheres serve to block all sight and matter from the outside, and even potent divinations do not function across its border. Extremely powerful magic is needed to breech a crystal sphere, which can then allow observation, divination, and even physical travel through the temporary gap. Gap size should be dependent upon the power of the spell and caster, but no matter how potent, it regenerates from it's source at the same rate. A breach will remain open as long as the spell is in effect, but at its conclusion will reduce in radius at a rate of 10ft per round. I suggest a renaming of the voidcraft's jamming device. Let's call them "gap generators", in honor of the old CnC games (even though it doesn't resemble them at all...)! :D Essentially then, a "sphere" is now the equivalent term to a planetary system, and they appear to all ouside observers as bright/dark cosmic marbles. What do you think? |
| ArchmageOmega10-18-07, 12:29 AM | I'll add the link. Also, I don't mind constant suggestions. It's certainly better than no one saying anything. One thing I've decided against was crystal spheres. I really need to go back and proof read some of my work. I've been using planet and sphere interchangeably. As for the star or black hole being the center of a system, I don't know. It's certainly a possibility, but I think it'd be fun if the stars/holes were actually smaller than the planets and orbited around them. :D Then the question is how do the planets move around each other? |
| locustechpriest10-18-07, 05:47 PM | That would definitely add some spice. May want to call 'em something other than stars -- or maybe not, it could come as an interesting surprise. In the ancient world, astronomers thought that the sun orbited the earth, and the set up a whole bunch of weird "nested orbits" that celestial bodies were supposed to follow. I guess the idea of a glowing spark in the sky flying in weird spirals fell out of favor... Eventually. |
| ArchmageOmega10-19-07, 05:26 PM | Yeah, they were called epicycles IIRC, and they attempted to explain the motions of celestial objects without giving up the idea that things moved in perfect circles. Needless to say, they didn't work. :D I might can use the idea that everything moves in perfect circles, but ellipses might be more fun, so I don't know. The biggest problem I have at the moment is imagining what things are orbitting around. |
| locustechpriest10-19-07, 06:43 PM | Indeed. I had that issue myself. Maybe you could have gravity be an energy of it's own, not unlike positive and negative energies. Then you can just say there is a gravity well at such-and-such location that everything orbits. Elipsese are fine, but consider if you will somehting more exotic: a eliptical trefoil, perhaps, or go "electron shell" and put them in a probability field instead of an actual orbit. ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega10-20-07, 06:42 AM | While a probability field sounds amusing, trying to think it through is giving me a headache. Things wouldn't necessarily stay together as it moved for starters. :eek: Also, what would you see from one planet to another? The trefoil is fine (and ellipses aren't perfectly cyclical anyway) but wouldn't really make much difference in play as most people couldn't really imagine how that'd look between planets. Oh well. Having a plane of gravity also sounds amusing, but I can't imagine what would be there. Rather, gravity would likely have to originate from one of the other planes. Might be an interesting use for the plane of shadow, although there might be better options. Actually, if it were the plane of shadow, then planets would orbit black holes, and stars (and other planets, aka moons) would orbit planets. Hmm... I'll have to think about that a little, but it sounds interesting. |
| The Wilgar10-24-07, 06:46 PM | BUMP. |
| locustechpriest10-25-07, 07:28 PM | I came up with a thought, concerning the lifestreams (FFVII plug) or spiritual ribbons (Bleach plug). If they do link worlds of identical or similar belief, which you (ArchmageO) seemed to dislike, it wouldn't necessarily mean that gods of similar ethos would be benefit by worship not their own. It would also not necessarily indicate that emancipated souls might find themselves in an altogether unfamiliar afterlife, as I had suggested. Consider with me for a moment, and this does build off of previous submissions, polarity or directionality of spiritual streamers. I have distilled the concepts of what they are, and decided that it makes more sense (to me) that they have a "flow" to them, rather than simply being cords. Planets of less specific belief, that is those which venerate ideals ("war") rahter than deities ("Heironeous"), would flow toward planets of more specific belief, but not the reverse. The war-worshiping worlds would contribute "belief points" to nearby planets of similar worship, but worship directed at a named or known deity would go to him inerrantly. Similarly, souls dedicated to war go to any of a variety of war deities, but souls dedicated to Heironeous go to him alone. Planets of equivalent belief have an equal flow in both directions. These spiritual streamers, as pointed out by their original proponent Lokiyn, would served as landmarks or highways, of a sort, through the astral (and perhaps shadow). I would suggest that traveling along one such streamer in the direction of its "flow" should speed travel along. Hopefully, this has served to improve the concept, perhaps making it more usable. Then again, I may have just reitterated a bunch of things unnecessarily. Either way, I am pleased to present my thoughts! ^_^ |
| ArchmageOmega10-29-07, 05:53 PM | Sorry for the long delay. I've been pretty tired/busy. Interesting idea though. I hadn't yet considered what happens to the souls of people the worship an ideal. I suppose the only other possibility is that such worship would create a new deity to fill the role, although I don't know how that'd happen. Also, having the threads of worship suddenly fray and go in five directions would make for an ammusing moment for some astral travelers. :devil: Each thread from a planet would connect to one (or more) divine planes, so you couldn't quite follow such a thread from one planet to another (at least not directly). I'll probably use this idea then. :) |