Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thegans 11-28-07, 04:02 AM	I want some opininons on this idea I had for a very long reaching plot of Asmodeous'. Now then during or slightly before the Rekoning of Hell Asmodeous notices binders and decides to invest a plan to gain power over them in the event that they become a powerful force. He summons Geryon his most loyal devil and tells him the plan saiyng that it will be necessary for him to forget the plan for it to work. Greyon agrees and two spells are placed on him a mindrape spell removing the knowledge of that while suppressing his mind, a custom spell to make a copy of his mind with out the memories, and a likely custom contingent spell to restore his true mind and memories 'when he sees through the eyes of a million mortals at once'. Or something like that. Everything follows along as normal and Asmodeous repeatedly betrays Geryon just as the two had planned. Now Geryon is a vestige but his mind is protected by a false one and if Asmoedous plan works Greyon will eventually have his true mind restored while in the Outer Darkness as soon as he's bound to a large enough ammount of people at the same time thus damning them all since in theory Greyon should regain his lawful evil allignment and the binders that bound him are associating with a powerful devil. Now then like I asked would this seem like a plausable plot for the Lord of the Nine to attempt?
NoldorForce 11-28-07, 11:03 AM	Considering that Geryon has a million binders channeling him - so what? It's not like that'll keep him from being insane (a natural consequence of vestige existence) or from staying out where vestiges go. If they could come back...why would they be so keen to make pacts with every single available binder, rather than at least picking and choosing some of the "better" ones? How's that going to auto-damn anyone? Binders can bind with Tenebrous more easily than Geryon, and nothing says that that damns them in anyway. (Tenebrous is the castoff divinity of the demon lord Orcus.)
sciborg3 11-28-07, 12:31 PM	As a big fan of vestiges, I have to agree with the above poster. I personally wouldn't like it. That said, it could work though I disagree with the auto-damnation part. In D&D you can't be damned so easily otherwise anyone binding fiends would be headed to the lower planes. A lot of this depends on how much you want to respect the nature of the vestiges being on the outside of known existence. Asmo should not be able to easily break this barrier imo, though it'd be interesting to put the Lord of Nessus in a position where he has to bind Geryon himself...
Artifact 11-28-07, 01:19 PM	I like this idea. I don't know how I would implement it mechanically, but the actual idea is pretty solid I think, the seed is there. 'Sides, I've always had a soft spot for Geryon (poor thing :P, cast out of Hell like a mangy mutt); I always hope for him to make a comeback. Also, I do like far reaching plots (even better when devised by Asmodeus himself ;))
Thegans 11-28-07, 02:30 PM	Yeah I know theirs the insanity part. Now Geryon is a vestige but his mind is protected by a false one and if Asmoedous plan works Greyon will eventually have his true mind restored while in the Outer Darkness as soon as he's bound to a large enough ammount of people at the same time thus damning them all since in theory Greyon should regain his lawful evil allignment My basic idea was for Asmodeous to give Geryon a false mind with a contingent spell to restore the real mind by removing the false one that owuld have been affected. Sure it might not work but it seems like something Asmodeous might try. As for the menory restoring spell not working we don't entirely know how contingent spells cast before vestigedom affect the vestige. SO theirs a change his allignment could get restored and according to Fiendish Codex 2 your allignment can shift to lawful evil just by being in the same area as an archdevil with out trying to kill it. In theory letting an archdevil semi possess you should have the same affect.
WarDragon 11-28-07, 09:23 PM	Unlikely. I say "unlikely" because Asmodeus isn't the sort to help ANYONE for nothing - what's in this for him? Millions of souls simultaneously dragged into Hell. And the creature bound to your soul suddenly (re)gaining the power and existence of an Archdevil is sure to have some negative effects on your soul.
Thegans 11-28-07, 10:25 PM	Millions of souls simultaneously dragged into Hell. And the creature bound to your soul suddenly (re)gaining the power and existence of an Archdevil is sure to have some negative effects on your soul. I'm not sure if Geyron could come back completely but I think the mind restoring idea might work since theirs no rules about contingent spells stoping before they come into affect and the condition trigger might still work. Still that would probably be even better. Hmm then again if Tenaborus can grant spells and they suggest that he might return Geyron might be able to do the same.
NoldorForce 11-29-07, 12:40 AM	Millions of souls simultaneously dragged into Hell. And the creature bound to your soul suddenly (re)gaining the power and existence of an Archdevil is sure to have some negative effects on your soul.I realized that that part was silly (I'd answered my own question below) early on, but didn't manage to edit it out. Plus, a vestige isn't attached to your soul that tightly. Sure, it's riding shotgun and can give input on your driving...but you're the one truly in control. Binding a vestige with an evil alignment isn't going to damn you any more than binding a vestige with a good alignment (there are some established like this) will redeem you. You're giving an entity outside normal existence some temporary, almost insignificant reprieve from its normal sensory deprivation. Even something in its right mind would eventually go insane from solitary confinement. So you're not sharing a bit of your being with a thoroughly evil bugger...you're sharing a bit of your being with a basket case.As for the menory restoring spell not working we don't entirely know how contingent spells cast before vestigedom affect the vestige. SO theirs a change his allignment could get restored and according to Fiendish Codex 2 your allignment can shift to lawful evil just by being in the same area as an archdevil with out trying to kill it. In theory letting an archdevil semi possess you should have the same affect.What page is that on? That's not something I recall, and I've read the book extensively.
Thegans 11-29-07, 12:52 AM	I realized that that part was silly (I'd answered my own question below) early on, but didn't manage to edit it out. Plus, a vestige isn't attached to your soul that tightly. Sure, it's riding shotgun and can give input on your driving...but you're the one truly in control. Binding a vestige with an evil alignment isn't going to damn you any more than binding a vestige with a good alignment (there are some established like this) will redeem you. You're giving an entity outside normal existence some temporary, almost insignificant reprieve from its normal sensory deprivation. Even something in its right mind would eventually go insane from solitary confinement. So you're not sharing a bit of your being with a thoroughly evil bugger...you're sharing a bit of your being with a basket case.What page is that on? That's not something I recall, and I've read the book extensively. As of right now the only think I can find is the section on roleplaying Bel on page 35 that says he can courrupt with out concious effort. Basically it sys that if you help kill demons and Bel pays you for it you will start turing lawful evil.
NoldorForce 11-29-07, 01:03 AM	As of right now the only think I can find is the section on roleplaying Bel on page 35 that says he can courrupt with out concious effort. Basically it sys that if you help kill demons and Bel pays you for it you will start turing lawful evil.-That's just Bel. -You're also implicitly aiding Bel's devil armies in the Blood War; Bel is one of the top generals in said conflict on the baatezu side if not the top general. What you'd be doing is a bit more involved than simply collecting demon heads in the Abyss and delivering them to some shadowy figure. You're making a conscious effort to aid and abet the forces of Lawful Evil, and that's what's damnation-worthy.
ArcTan 11-30-07, 08:30 PM	You're introducing a lot of mechanics to Vestiges by doing this that, in my opinion, totally ruin the concept.
sciborg3 12-01-07, 06:59 PM	I meant Asmo should NOT be able to break the barrier to the vestiges. I feel the same way as Arctan...