Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Etharion 04-02-07, 03:07 PM	Ok..im running a adventure, 3. edition, and my players have a party of 4 elves (2 wood, 1 moon and 1 drow) and they are all around lvl. 19-20. They are now located in the Abyss, in the city of Zelatar, in the realm of Azzagrat under the rule of the Abyssal lord Graz'zt. Now..i read the describtion of the city in the Manual of the Planes, and it dosent seem overly hostile, but id like to hear some other opinions. How would the natives here react and treat the 4 elves? Attack them on sight, plot against them, or simply ignore them as nothing special? I need to know..this is my first time im DMing on some other plane, so i dont have much expirience with this stuff.. Secondly, if anyone can find the time to explain to me, i dont get the rules in the Monster Manual for creature addvancment. It says that creatures can addvance (raising they'r Hit Dice) and that theyr stattistics change respectivly, but i dont get the Challenge Rating part.. It says that the CR stays unchanged for a monster that has gained HD,that is, that the expirience award increases by the same ratio as the increase in Hit Dice. So..basiclly the CR stays the same. But let me explain my problem on a example... A night hag is CR 9, the player's party is a average level of 18, so the lowest CR monster they DO get expirience from is CR 11, that is they get no expirience for a Night Hag. But if i advance the Night hag, raise its Hit Dice (hit points, to hit, saves..) for nearly a double (from HD 9 to 16 or 18) they still dont get any expirience for killing the Night Hag??! I mean..the monster DID increase in HP and stuff..so it is obviously harder to kill, but the players still get no exp.for the kill?! I just dont know if it is a mest up system, or did i get it wrong.. All the help i can get is welcomed...thanks up front.
Dunamin 04-02-07, 03:51 PM	Secondly, if anyone can find the time to explain to me, i dont get the rules in the Monster Manual for creature addvancment. It says that creatures can addvance (raising they'r Hit Dice) and that theyr stattistics change respectivly, but i dont get the Challenge Rating part.. It says that the CR stays unchanged for a monster that has gained HD,that is, that the expirience award increases by the same ratio as the increase in Hit Dice. So..basiclly the CR stays the same. I'm afraid I don't get what you're saying. Where exactly did you read that CR remains unchanged by advancing monsters? The relevant source is Table 4-4 in MM on page 294. It points out how CR increases, as a monster is advanced. But let me explain my problem on a example... A night hag is CR 9, the player's party is a average level of 18, so the lowest CR monster they DO get expirience from is CR 11, that is they get no expirience for a Night Hag. But if i advance the Night hag, raise its Hit Dice (hit points, to hit, saves..) for nearly a double (from HD 9 to 16 or 18) they still dont get any expirience for killing the Night Hag??! I mean..the monster DID increase in HP and stuff..so it is obviously harder to kill, but the players still get no exp.for the kill?! I just dont know if it is a mest up system, or did i get it wrong.. All the help i can get is welcomed...thanks up front. The night hag entry specifies that a night hag only can be advanced as a monster to 16 HD, not 18, so let's work with that. Refer to Table 4-4, as mentioned before. The night hag is an outsider, and for every 2 HD an outsider is advanced, CR is increased by 1. So we add 4 to the CR for the 8 HD added, and the fully advanced night hag arrives at CR 13. I'm not sure about whether the points about "monster possesses special and attacks..." applies, unfortunately The most important point in all this, however, is this: the mechanics behind setting CRs are guidelines, not exact sciences. Ideally, an advanced monster should be playtested, and adjusted in CR if appropriate.
Etharion 04-02-07, 05:53 PM	Ok...thanks for the info..i understand a bit more now.. But i did state that i play by the 3. edition books and rules.. 3. edition Monster Manual only has 224 pages, so i guess your talking about the 3.5 edition. :D If you know how it works for 3. edition..holler out to me. By the way..the stuff where i read about monsters not changing CR when advancing is in the 3. edition MM, page 14, at the very bottom of the page (under Challenge Rating). so..if you have the book..take a look and see for yourself. Just to remind ya..do you know anything about my other question? Thanks upfront..
Dunamin 04-03-07, 02:26 AM	Ok...thanks for the info..i understand a bit more now.. But i did state that i play by the 3. edition books and rules.. 3. edition Monster Manual only has 224 pages, so i guess your talking about the 3.5 edition. :D If you know how it works for 3. edition..holler out to me. By the way..the stuff where i read about monsters not changing CR when advancing is in the 3. edition MM, page 14, at the very bottom of the page (under Challenge Rating). so..if you have the book..take a look and see for yourself. Well now, I do so happen to have a 3.0 MM and indeed that's what it says. I can't understand the logic behind CR remaining unchanged when monsters are improved, but that would probably be the reason why they changed it in 3.5. Just use the table and see how it works with 3.0, it can be found freely here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice) (as all SRD content can). Ok..im running a adventure, 3. edition, and my players have a party of 4 elves (2 wood, 1 moon and 1 drow) and they are all around lvl. 19-20. They are now located in the Abyss, in the city of Zelatar, in the realm of Azzagrat under the rule of the Abyssal lord Graz'zt. Now..i read the describtion of the city in the Manual of the Planes, and it dosent seem overly hostile, but id like to hear some other opinions. How would the natives here react and treat the 4 elves? Attack them on sight, plot against them, or simply ignore them as nothing special? I need to know..this is my first time im DMing on some other plane, so i dont have much expirience with this stuff.. It would be helpful if you could provide a little information. Why are they there? Is this reason likely to be discovered by the natives quickly? Do the group include good or lawfully aligned clerics who brandish their holy symbols everywhere? Or are the PCs discreet about their business and nature? Initially, the more brainless lesser demons might occasionally ambush them in dark alleys (especially if the PCs appear as less than they are). But it takes very basic divinations to notice that the PCs wear immensely powerful items and that their aligned aura is fairly strong, enough to deduce a rough estimate of their power. Once this fact reaches the ears of more powerful natives of Azzagrat, they are likely to take interest in what the PCs are doing there, and make attempts at more closely estimating how big a threat they are. Everybody would of course like to exploit them, but few would have the means to do so, so I would think they can remain relatively unmolested in Azzagrat for at least a few days, before their presence is detected by someone powerful enough to confront them with less than pleasant intentions.
Etharion 04-03-07, 05:37 PM	Yeah..the 3.edition rules on that make no sense to me.. Short history, the four elves (barbarian, mage, arcane archer, cleric) (alingment: two are CG, two are NG) followed a more powerfull being (a fallen deva) through a Gate, to Grazzt's Realm in the Abyss. They have cloaks and stuff, so they can relatively "hide" they'r identity for a while if they chose so.. They are all 19-20 lvl. and the mage has the Plane Shift spell, but no fork to use to get to any other plane (3. edition rules) , and he does not have the Gate spell. So..they either have to find a fork, or a portal to get out of the Abyss (they are headed to the city of Sigil, in the Outlands). Now..as i have not yet DM'd players on any other plane, expecially on one so filled with evil outsiders, i need some advice on how the denzins will react to the players, you know..will they attack on sight, or maybe even trade with them, and is there even a chance of them finding a fork to use with the Plane Shift spell.. Dunamin..thanks for all the help so far, i appreciate it a lot. :D Anything else you can add will be great too..
Etharion 04-04-07, 05:14 PM	Common people..i know someone here can help me with this. :D Dont leave it all up to Dunamin to help me. :P
HawkTheOne-Handed 04-05-07, 03:07 PM	Do they have the appropriate spell keys to use the plane shift spell (is that rule still being used in 3E)? I would suggest that diplomacy not work with lesser demons as they may see the strangers as weaklings who should be killed on sight (unless heavily controlled by Grazzt). More intelligent demons would use their skills to corrupt or mislead the adventurers (sense motive checks all around as demons are notorious liars). There should be shops in the city where just about anything can be purchased (once again, sense motive and other checks should be made as they are outsiders and probably subject to subterfuge for no other reason than because the demons feel like it).
Etharion 04-05-07, 07:44 PM	Okay..not bad...good hints...thanks mate.. :D Just keep it rollin people..you'v already helped me tons..