A thought about evil. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A thought about evil. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thegans
10-01-07, 08:32 PM Before I start I just want to mention that this is not about what acts may count as being evil. This is not an allignment thread.

Now then a thought recently came to my mind. From what I know of most adventures the idea is that a very small group of good people are fighting an evil enemy. The enemy uses its forces like cannon fodder causing the deaths of its weaker minions constantly.

If adventurers are common place then their is probably a high mortality rate ammoung the majority of evil species on the prime material plane. In short the majority of evil beings exist to be slaughtered. This could imply that evil is ultimately prone to defeat for a number of reasons.

Now then all beings go to an after life corresponding to their allignment meaning for every evil person killed the lower planes get another soul.

Assuming the majority of souls are off the same value across an entire species the lower planes make up for quality with quantity.

Most souls also become outsiders thus a quicker death means less time till it becomes more useful for the forces of evil.

So is evil on the prime simply reckless and self defeating or is the force behind it simply quick to reap what it sows to get more of a benifit out of it?
Devil Gnasher
10-01-07, 09:16 PM I'd have to say both. On the prime, mortal evils tend to be more reckless with their own lives and the lives of others. Extraplanar evils use this to increase their own ranks.
Paradox_of_Life
10-03-07, 04:51 AM I'd say it all falls down to empathy. If you can feel empathy for your minions, then you won't have them wantonly slaughtered.
JulesCARV
10-03-07, 06:12 AM I'd say that the analysis is too PC-centric. If you have a battle between a group of level 3 PCs and some typical unclassed CR 1 gnolls, then the gnolls will die at a much higher rate than the PCs. If, on the other hand, you have a battle between an army of level 1 dwarf warriors and a group of gnolls, then the dwarves will typically die at a higher rate, and many more of the good guys are level 1 warriors than level 3 PCs. Looking at the larger picture, I don't see any support for the "elite good guys vs. hordes of low-level evil guys" picture. That's how good PCs experience it, but then again, elite evil types (like Xykon or Nale) have the mirror image of that, a few of them wading through hordes of weak good guys.
1 ton ghost
10-05-07, 02:32 PM your existential hypothesis seems a bit too black and white. i can't reduce life/death struggles to stereo instructions.

-adventurers aren't common. most lands are populated w/ normal ppl like us, commoners and experts. that's why it's adventure, a life different from the drudgery of the fields/shops. if there was a surplus of heroes, things would be less heroic and more blase'. takes the majesty out of your PC. they help serve as molds of ambition and role models for the citizenry.
-saying evil creatures die more frequently is a bold statement. goblins and orcs breed like rats and horde up to die in droves while some evils are "fixed" mortally speaking. that's a blanket statement that can't always be applied to every species. you gotta' look at land, culture, raw materials, etc.
-they don't exist to be defeated. yes, that's the purpose of the core books in a overgeneralized sort of way, but they have lives and ambitions too. hobgoblin countries, necropoli, outsiders doing a million things, etc.
-afterlife explanations can't be argued scientifically always either. where the soul goes and so forth is more spiritual in nature than quantitative. plus in Lower Planes ruling bodies there are fickle and evil. you could be winked out, become part of the plane, toyed w/ for eternity, whatever. you can't truly measure it and maybe you shouldn't. i mean, you can, it's your right which i'm cool w/, i just feel otherwise is all.
-i agree w/ you on the age old metaphor of quality vs. quantity. typically the "good guys" are always outnumbered but their moral fiber and conviction makes them higher caliber.
-they were fond of saying in Dragonlance, "evil defeats itself" which is an interesting euphimism. more likely to turn on one another and so on, so you're onto something there. the rest of the debate is obscure. can't be solved like an equation, you know? your attempt deserves merit though as most ppl don't give a damn so nj.
Naderion
10-05-07, 04:34 PM When an army with 10.000 evil warriors come to the lands, and a group of heroes defeats the army, they will likely only kille a hand full of key officers and two to three dozens soldiert. Leaves still 9.960 soldiers. Those will either flee and live, or they will be slaughtered by good soldiers, which will likely also number in the 8.000 or more.
Thegans
10-05-07, 04:50 PM your existential hypothesis seems a bit too black and white. i can't reduce life/death struggles to stereo instructions.

-adventurers aren't common. most lands are populated w/ normal ppl like us, commoners and experts. that's why it's adventure, a life different from the drudgery of the fields/shops. if there was a surplus of heroes, things would be less heroic and more blase'. takes the majesty out of your PC. they help serve as molds of ambition and role models for the citizenry.
-saying evil creatures die more frequently is a bold statement. goblins and orcs breed like rats and horde up to die in droves while some evils are "fixed" mortally speaking. that's a blanket statement that can't always be applied to every species. you gotta' look at land, culture, raw materials, etc.
-they don't exist to be defeated. yes, that's the purpose of the core books in a overgeneralized sort of way, but they have lives and ambitions too. hobgoblin countries, necropoli, outsiders doing a million things, etc.
-afterlife explanations can't be argued scientifically always either. where the soul goes and so forth is more spiritual in nature than quantitative. plus in Lower Planes ruling bodies there are fickle and evil. you could be winked out, become part of the plane, toyed w/ for eternity, whatever. you can't truly measure it and maybe you shouldn't. i mean, you can, it's your right which i'm cool w/, i just feel otherwise is all.
-i agree w/ you on the age old metaphor of quality vs. quantity. typically the "good guys" are always outnumbered but their moral fiber and conviction makes them higher caliber.
-they were fond of saying in Dragonlance, "evil defeats itself" which is an interesting euphimism. more likely to turn on one another and so on, so you're onto something there. the rest of the debate is obscure. can't be solved like an equation, you know? your attempt deserves merit though as most ppl don't give a damn so nj.

I'm just saying the afterlife explaination explains why it seems so easy. The adventures are actually helping evil becuase the sooner they die the sooner the lower planes get their souls.

Lets say 1000 orcs are killed that about 500 new manes five of which might spontaniously become balors.
1 ton ghost
10-05-07, 06:58 PM I'm just saying the afterlife explaination explains why it seems so easy. The adventures are actually helping evil becuase the sooner they die the sooner the lower planes get their souls.

Lets say 1000 orcs are killed that about 500 new manes five of which might spontaniously become balors.

that is a valid interpretation, but no one is sure where every one of them is and can be accounted for. if i knew, i'd post it, but it's all speculation really. yes, some shuffle off the mortal coil to nishrek (orks) and so on, but immediately filling the ranks of infernal/abyssal forces...well, that's not exactly a factory secret. even if it were fact, i'm sure some celestial would take note and an edict, some divine action, anything would be enacted to combat it.

and, like i said, evil types are fickle and evil. if, for example, every evil soul was "conscripted" as you say into these afterlife armies, still, quite a few would be wasted, toyed w/, and generally squandered given evil attitudes and so much infighting. i mean, pawns are expendable and on a planetary scale...i mean, damn.

on the other hand, you could be 100% correct...
consider the Blood War; all those fresh souls in circulation get pi$$ed away on some stupid epic war. the sheer waste and potential is staggering.
actually, it's not that stupid, w/out it, they could consolidate forces and overwhelm the Upper Planes. again, this is only an interpretation.
Thegans
10-05-07, 07:06 PM that is a valid interpretation, but no one is sure where every one of them is and can be accounted for. if i knew, i'd post it, but it's all speculation really. yes, some shuffle off the mortal coil to nishrek (orks) and so on, but immediately filling the ranks of infernal/abyssal forces...well, that's not exactly a factory secret. even if it were fact, i'm sure some celestial would take note and an edict, some divine action, anything would be enacted to combat it.

and, like i said, evil types are fickle and evil. if, for example, every evil soul was "conscripted" as you say into these afterlife armies, still, quite a few would be wasted, toyed w/, and generally squandered given evil attitudes and so much infighting. i mean, pawns are expendable and on a planetary scale...i mean, damn.

on the other hand, you could be 100% correct...
consider the Blood War; all those fresh souls in circulation get pi$$ed away on some stupid epic war. the sheer waste and potential is staggering.
actually, it's not that stupid, w/out it, they could consolidate forces and overwhelm the Upper Planes. again, this is only an interpretation.

From a certain point of view their not wasted. Some fiends are spontaniously born from the energies of the planes so if the souls are destroyed it simply provides more fuel for the planes to create more of these fiends.

But yeah I agree about the fickle part.
Triyu
10-06-07, 04:05 PM It all balances out with the amount of rocks falling and killing everyone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thegans 10-01-07, 08:32 PM	Before I start I just want to mention that this is not about what acts may count as being evil. This is not an allignment thread. Now then a thought recently came to my mind. From what I know of most adventures the idea is that a very small group of good people are fighting an evil enemy. The enemy uses its forces like cannon fodder causing the deaths of its weaker minions constantly. If adventurers are common place then their is probably a high mortality rate ammoung the majority of evil species on the prime material plane. In short the majority of evil beings exist to be slaughtered. This could imply that evil is ultimately prone to defeat for a number of reasons. Now then all beings go to an after life corresponding to their allignment meaning for every evil person killed the lower planes get another soul. Assuming the majority of souls are off the same value across an entire species the lower planes make up for quality with quantity. Most souls also become outsiders thus a quicker death means less time till it becomes more useful for the forces of evil. So is evil on the prime simply reckless and self defeating or is the force behind it simply quick to reap what it sows to get more of a benifit out of it?
Devil Gnasher 10-01-07, 09:16 PM	I'd have to say both. On the prime, mortal evils tend to be more reckless with their own lives and the lives of others. Extraplanar evils use this to increase their own ranks.
Paradox_of_Life 10-03-07, 04:51 AM	I'd say it all falls down to empathy. If you can feel empathy for your minions, then you won't have them wantonly slaughtered.
JulesCARV 10-03-07, 06:12 AM	I'd say that the analysis is too PC-centric. If you have a battle between a group of level 3 PCs and some typical unclassed CR 1 gnolls, then the gnolls will die at a much higher rate than the PCs. If, on the other hand, you have a battle between an army of level 1 dwarf warriors and a group of gnolls, then the dwarves will typically die at a higher rate, and many more of the good guys are level 1 warriors than level 3 PCs. Looking at the larger picture, I don't see any support for the "elite good guys vs. hordes of low-level evil guys" picture. That's how good PCs experience it, but then again, elite evil types (like Xykon or Nale) have the mirror image of that, a few of them wading through hordes of weak good guys.
1 ton ghost 10-05-07, 02:32 PM	your existential hypothesis seems a bit too black and white. i can't reduce life/death struggles to stereo instructions. -adventurers aren't common. most lands are populated w/ normal ppl like us, commoners and experts. that's why it's adventure, a life different from the drudgery of the fields/shops. if there was a surplus of heroes, things would be less heroic and more blase'. takes the majesty out of your PC. they help serve as molds of ambition and role models for the citizenry. -saying evil creatures die more frequently is a bold statement. goblins and orcs breed like rats and horde up to die in droves while some evils are "fixed" mortally speaking. that's a blanket statement that can't always be applied to every species. you gotta' look at land, culture, raw materials, etc. -they don't exist to be defeated. yes, that's the purpose of the core books in a overgeneralized sort of way, but they have lives and ambitions too. hobgoblin countries, necropoli, outsiders doing a million things, etc. -afterlife explanations can't be argued scientifically always either. where the soul goes and so forth is more spiritual in nature than quantitative. plus in Lower Planes ruling bodies there are fickle and evil. you could be winked out, become part of the plane, toyed w/ for eternity, whatever. you can't truly measure it and maybe you shouldn't. i mean, you can, it's your right which i'm cool w/, i just feel otherwise is all. -i agree w/ you on the age old metaphor of quality vs. quantity. typically the "good guys" are always outnumbered but their moral fiber and conviction makes them higher caliber. -they were fond of saying in Dragonlance, "evil defeats itself" which is an interesting euphimism. more likely to turn on one another and so on, so you're onto something there. the rest of the debate is obscure. can't be solved like an equation, you know? your attempt deserves merit though as most ppl don't give a damn so nj.
Naderion 10-05-07, 04:34 PM	When an army with 10.000 evil warriors come to the lands, and a group of heroes defeats the army, they will likely only kille a hand full of key officers and two to three dozens soldiert. Leaves still 9.960 soldiers. Those will either flee and live, or they will be slaughtered by good soldiers, which will likely also number in the 8.000 or more.
Thegans 10-05-07, 04:50 PM	your existential hypothesis seems a bit too black and white. i can't reduce life/death struggles to stereo instructions. -adventurers aren't common. most lands are populated w/ normal ppl like us, commoners and experts. that's why it's adventure, a life different from the drudgery of the fields/shops. if there was a surplus of heroes, things would be less heroic and more blase'. takes the majesty out of your PC. they help serve as molds of ambition and role models for the citizenry. -saying evil creatures die more frequently is a bold statement. goblins and orcs breed like rats and horde up to die in droves while some evils are "fixed" mortally speaking. that's a blanket statement that can't always be applied to every species. you gotta' look at land, culture, raw materials, etc. -they don't exist to be defeated. yes, that's the purpose of the core books in a overgeneralized sort of way, but they have lives and ambitions too. hobgoblin countries, necropoli, outsiders doing a million things, etc. -afterlife explanations can't be argued scientifically always either. where the soul goes and so forth is more spiritual in nature than quantitative. plus in Lower Planes ruling bodies there are fickle and evil. you could be winked out, become part of the plane, toyed w/ for eternity, whatever. you can't truly measure it and maybe you shouldn't. i mean, you can, it's your right which i'm cool w/, i just feel otherwise is all. -i agree w/ you on the age old metaphor of quality vs. quantity. typically the "good guys" are always outnumbered but their moral fiber and conviction makes them higher caliber. -they were fond of saying in Dragonlance, "evil defeats itself" which is an interesting euphimism. more likely to turn on one another and so on, so you're onto something there. the rest of the debate is obscure. can't be solved like an equation, you know? your attempt deserves merit though as most ppl don't give a damn so nj. I'm just saying the afterlife explaination explains why it seems so easy. The adventures are actually helping evil becuase the sooner they die the sooner the lower planes get their souls. Lets say 1000 orcs are killed that about 500 new manes five of which might spontaniously become balors.
1 ton ghost 10-05-07, 06:58 PM	I'm just saying the afterlife explaination explains why it seems so easy. The adventures are actually helping evil becuase the sooner they die the sooner the lower planes get their souls. Lets say 1000 orcs are killed that about 500 new manes five of which might spontaniously become balors. that is a valid interpretation, but no one is sure where every one of them is and can be accounted for. if i knew, i'd post it, but it's all speculation really. yes, some shuffle off the mortal coil to nishrek (orks) and so on, but immediately filling the ranks of infernal/abyssal forces...well, that's not exactly a factory secret. even if it were fact, i'm sure some celestial would take note and an edict, some divine action, anything would be enacted to combat it. and, like i said, evil types are fickle and evil. if, for example, every evil soul was "conscripted" as you say into these afterlife armies, still, quite a few would be wasted, toyed w/, and generally squandered given evil attitudes and so much infighting. i mean, pawns are expendable and on a planetary scale...i mean, damn. on the other hand, you could be 100% correct... consider the Blood War; all those fresh souls in circulation get pi$$ed away on some stupid epic war. the sheer waste and potential is staggering. actually, it's not that stupid, w/out it, they could consolidate forces and overwhelm the Upper Planes. again, this is only an interpretation.
Thegans 10-05-07, 07:06 PM	that is a valid interpretation, but no one is sure where every one of them is and can be accounted for. if i knew, i'd post it, but it's all speculation really. yes, some shuffle off the mortal coil to nishrek (orks) and so on, but immediately filling the ranks of infernal/abyssal forces...well, that's not exactly a factory secret. even if it were fact, i'm sure some celestial would take note and an edict, some divine action, anything would be enacted to combat it. and, like i said, evil types are fickle and evil. if, for example, every evil soul was "conscripted" as you say into these afterlife armies, still, quite a few would be wasted, toyed w/, and generally squandered given evil attitudes and so much infighting. i mean, pawns are expendable and on a planetary scale...i mean, damn. on the other hand, you could be 100% correct... consider the Blood War; all those fresh souls in circulation get pi$$ed away on some stupid epic war. the sheer waste and potential is staggering. actually, it's not that stupid, w/out it, they could consolidate forces and overwhelm the Upper Planes. again, this is only an interpretation. From a certain point of view their not wasted. Some fiends are spontaniously born from the energies of the planes so if the souls are destroyed it simply provides more fuel for the planes to create more of these fiends. But yeah I agree about the fickle part.
Triyu 10-06-07, 04:05 PM	It all balances out with the amount of rocks falling and killing everyone.