Ancient Baatorians, Mephistopheles, and such [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ancient Baatorians, Mephistopheles, and such [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sicsemperjohn
09-06-07, 03:31 AM I'm working on a new campaign, and I am not entirely sure how well the following is going to work in terms of canon PSCS kind of stuff, but I have ideas that I think could play out in an interesting way. I'm ditching whatever I have to, in order to make the campaign make sense, but I guess I want to try to match up against standard PSCS canon. I'm drawing on both 2E and 3E books, as well as mimir.net. This is always a good place to discuss this kind of stuff...

1) The Baatezu, though the rulers of the Nine Hells, are not intrinsically tied to the plane itself. Says so in 2E Planes of Law. (edit: I mean, the same way that Abyssal Lords are tied to their layers of the Abyss).

2) Nupperibo are generally taken to be a young form of Ancient Baatorian, which spawn naturally from larva on the plane. As opposed to Baatezu who must be deliberately turned into Lemures. This comes up in a few adventures and such.

3) Cania is one of the layers most tied to the Ancient Baatorians, cos of that whole horrible-things-frozen-in-ice bit. This is also in Planes of Law and also other stuff.

4) Thus, the dark of things in my campaign is that Ancient Baatorians created both the Baatezu and also a line of humanoid creatures to rule over Baator while they sleep.
4a) Potentially, the (unnamed) humanoid race was more powerful than the Baatezu. However, they suffered from a strong tendency to be corrupted by Chaos or Good and were deposed of by the more organized Baatezu.

4b) Though the Baatezu were more strongly aligned with the Nine Hells, they could never sever the humanoid connection to Baator. This is because the Ancient Baatorians still have their weird fingers in things, and would still like to have cards to play against the Baatezu.

5) SO. The PCs in my campaign will find themselves starting the campaign face-down in a ditch near Torch. The Baatezu hired some mercenaries (a single Mezzoloth and a few lesser bloods) to off the PCs, who were all stolen from different locations because of one thing they all have in common: a birthmark of a symbol of Ancient Baatorian significance.

My PCs probably won't even know the symbol has anything to do with Baator for a long time, and I'll even orchestrate things so they each hide their birthmarks from one another as long as I can pull it off. All they need to know is that the symbol generally gets them in trouble -- upper planars register the symbol as profane even if the PCs may have good alignments, demons instinctively want to rip them apart (I suppose that's normal) and the 'loths... well, they're going to have a special interest in these PCs, aren't they?
Because the PCs are essentially the rightful rulers of Cania. Whoever's got their arse sitting in the infernal icebox is the ruler, sure, but ancient laws guarantee the PCs keys to the door.

One thing I want to stress is that I'm not just trying to give my PCs a layer of Baator for Christmas ("Gee thanks Uncle John! ...wait, what do you mean, no divine rank included? Aw man"). This campaign is mostly an attempt to Get My Damn Players Out Of Sigil, which they haven't left much in the last few campaigns. I shall make them spend about ten levels trying to figure out what their birthmarks mean, why so many fiends hate them, and how to stay alive in the worst places in the multiverse. Then just as soon as they seem to be on top of their game, they will be quickly dropped into upper-echelon lower-planar politics. In the end, Asmodeus will probably end up giving control of the layer to the Gelugons, to Baalphegor, or something like that. However, that brings up some questions.

Where does Asmodeus best stand in all of this? I see him as even in cahoots with Ancient Baatorian schemes, probably forseeing most of the things that happen in this campaign. Or should he be less in the know? Or what do you all think?

How should I really characterize Mephistopheles when it comes down to the point? He's the one who ordered the PCs dead in the first place, and thus is the political BBEG. No effing way will I let the PCs think that they're going to fight him.

Baalzebub is important in this situation, because he's probably going to want to play sides against Meph-head, is he?

If I wanted to put a secret traitorous Baatezu on Carceri, who has knowledge about the PCs' connection to the Ancient Baatorians, how should I tie the gehreleths to this situation?

What, really, should the yugoloths want to gain from all of this?

I'm not without ideas here, I am just getting into this campaign here and I want to discuss all of this with you guys. I won't be in the same country as my PCs until January, so there is absolutely no timeliness behind any of this.
aushlo
09-06-07, 08:49 PM Sounds like it could be interesting, especially if you play up the mystery and intrigue. I wouldn't keep the secret too long though, it's probably important to set the PC's to determining the significance of the symbol, even if it takes ages to unfold. Specific responses:

-snippity-
4) Thus, the dark of things in my campaign is that Ancient Baatorians created both the Baatezu and also a line of humanoid creatures to rule over Baator while they sleep.
4a) Potentially, the (unnamed) humanoid race was more powerful than the Baatezu. However, they suffered from a strong tendency to be corrupted by Chaos or Good and were deposed of by the more organized Baatezu.
4b) Though the Baatezu were more strongly aligned with the Nine Hells, they could never sever the humanoid connection to Baator. This is because the Ancient Baatorians still have their weird fingers in things, and would still like to have cards to play against the Baatezu.

Where does Asmodeus best stand in all of this? I see him as even in cahoots with Ancient Baatorian schemes, probably forseeing most of the things that happen in this campaign. Or should he be less in the know? Or what do you all think?
------------------------------
I like it. I think the best method here, both to illustrate Asmodeus' sly kingcraft and to tie him tightly in to the action, would be to make the whole thing sort of Asmodeus' dirty little secret. Asmodeus may even have talked his creators into allowing him to put the other guardians 'on ice', or may have secretly done it after they lapsed into slumber (I like this better-they're not 'dead', but not quite alive anymore either-just out of the way). Being one of the cleverest beings in the planes, he may just be able to pull it off. Except that some of his stronger enemies have put together more information than he thinks they have. Which brings me to...
-----------------------
How should I really characterize Mephistopheles when it comes down to the point? He's the one who ordered the PCs dead in the first place, and thus is the political BBEG. No effing way will I let the PCs think that they're going to fight him.

Baalzebub is important in this situation, because he's probably going to want to play sides against Meph-head, is he?
----------------------------
Mephistopheles is closest to knowing the truth, and is convinced that when he figures out the true significance of the PC's, he can use it as a tool against Asmodeus when their ancient masters awaken. Also, he's placed conveniently to be able to investigate Cania more closely. Baalzebul, meanwhile, hates Asmodeus just as much as any other (probably more so), but fears any sort of fallout with Big A after his transformation. What he does know is that Mephistopheles wants the players for something, and that it seems to him that Meph wants to keep it on the DL from Big A. So Baalzebul sends his own agents to intercept Mephistopheles', which is the only thing that lets them escape eternal imprisonment by Meph. After all, if Asmo can't know, Meph can't go running to him and cry foul. In fact, Baalzebul can use Meph's reluctance to attract attention to ge on the offensive a bit. Of course, the interception is a bloodbath, and you could absolutely have the players wake up in the middle of an apparent (long finished) skirmish between Baatific forces. Maybe drop hints, like a letter of command found on the corpse of one of the commanders.
-----------------------------
If I wanted to put a secret traitorous Baatezu on Carceri, who has knowledge about the PCs' connection to the Ancient Baatorians, how should I tie the gehreleths to this situation?

They may know, or they may not. It's possible they're curious as to the significance of their captive. They sure as Hell aren't going to let anyone waltz in and talk to their captive, though.
-----------------------------
What, really, should the yugoloths want to gain from all of this?

The Yugoloths are renowned information brokers. As such, anything that makes the Archfiends nervous or excitable is absolutely something they would like to obtain for themselves, for blackmail, sale to the highest bidder, whatever. Obviously, it's valuable.

That's what I've got.
sicsemperjohn
09-07-07, 07:10 AM Thanks, Aushlo. Infighting between Baalz' and Meph is looking more and more important as I work on this.

...one complication I just thought of, is that some Yugoloth that the PCs are trying to get information out of early in the campaign, will have them steal something or otherwise inconvenience the Gehreleths a great deal, which will make it much more interesting later on when the PCs need something from them. Naturally the yugoloths had this planned out all along.
aushlo
09-12-07, 05:50 PM Thanks, Aushlo. Infighting between Baalz' and Meph is looking more and more important as I work on this.

...one complication I just thought of, is that some Yugoloth that the PCs are trying to get information out of early in the campaign, will have them steal something or otherwise inconvenience the Gehreleths a great deal, which will make it much more interesting later on when the PCs need something from them. Naturally the yugoloths had this planned out all along.

The Yugoloth might even double-cross them in secret by purposely making them targets of Gehreleth anger, then stepping conveniently in (probably not directly) to bail them out, later informing them of their debt and attempting to collect a return on that debt from a position of strength.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sicsemperjohn 09-06-07, 03:31 AM	I'm working on a new campaign, and I am not entirely sure how well the following is going to work in terms of canon PSCS kind of stuff, but I have ideas that I think could play out in an interesting way. I'm ditching whatever I have to, in order to make the campaign make sense, but I guess I want to try to match up against standard PSCS canon. I'm drawing on both 2E and 3E books, as well as mimir.net. This is always a good place to discuss this kind of stuff... 1) The Baatezu, though the rulers of the Nine Hells, are not intrinsically tied to the plane itself. Says so in 2E Planes of Law. (edit: I mean, the same way that Abyssal Lords are tied to their layers of the Abyss). 2) Nupperibo are generally taken to be a young form of Ancient Baatorian, which spawn naturally from larva on the plane. As opposed to Baatezu who must be deliberately turned into Lemures. This comes up in a few adventures and such. 3) Cania is one of the layers most tied to the Ancient Baatorians, cos of that whole horrible-things-frozen-in-ice bit. This is also in Planes of Law and also other stuff. 4) Thus, the dark of things in my campaign is that Ancient Baatorians created both the Baatezu and also a line of humanoid creatures to rule over Baator while they sleep. 4a) Potentially, the (unnamed) humanoid race was more powerful than the Baatezu. However, they suffered from a strong tendency to be corrupted by Chaos or Good and were deposed of by the more organized Baatezu. 4b) Though the Baatezu were more strongly aligned with the Nine Hells, they could never sever the humanoid connection to Baator. This is because the Ancient Baatorians still have their weird fingers in things, and would still like to have cards to play against the Baatezu. 5) SO. The PCs in my campaign will find themselves starting the campaign face-down in a ditch near Torch. The Baatezu hired some mercenaries (a single Mezzoloth and a few lesser bloods) to off the PCs, who were all stolen from different locations because of one thing they all have in common: a birthmark of a symbol of Ancient Baatorian significance. My PCs probably won't even know the symbol has anything to do with Baator for a long time, and I'll even orchestrate things so they each hide their birthmarks from one another as long as I can pull it off. All they need to know is that the symbol generally gets them in trouble -- upper planars register the symbol as profane even if the PCs may have good alignments, demons instinctively want to rip them apart (I suppose that's normal) and the 'loths... well, they're going to have a special interest in these PCs, aren't they? Because the PCs are essentially the rightful rulers of Cania. Whoever's got their arse sitting in the infernal icebox is the ruler, sure, but ancient laws guarantee the PCs keys to the door. One thing I want to stress is that I'm not just trying to give my PCs a layer of Baator for Christmas ("Gee thanks Uncle John! ...wait, what do you mean, no divine rank included? Aw man"). This campaign is mostly an attempt to Get My Damn Players Out Of Sigil, which they haven't left much in the last few campaigns. I shall make them spend about ten levels trying to figure out what their birthmarks mean, why so many fiends hate them, and how to stay alive in the worst places in the multiverse. Then just as soon as they seem to be on top of their game, they will be quickly dropped into upper-echelon lower-planar politics. In the end, Asmodeus will probably end up giving control of the layer to the Gelugons, to Baalphegor, or something like that. However, that brings up some questions. Where does Asmodeus best stand in all of this? I see him as even in cahoots with Ancient Baatorian schemes, probably forseeing most of the things that happen in this campaign. Or should he be less in the know? Or what do you all think? How should I really characterize Mephistopheles when it comes down to the point? He's the one who ordered the PCs dead in the first place, and thus is the political BBEG. No effing way will I let the PCs think that they're going to fight him. Baalzebub is important in this situation, because he's probably going to want to play sides against Meph-head, is he? If I wanted to put a secret traitorous Baatezu on Carceri, who has knowledge about the PCs' connection to the Ancient Baatorians, how should I tie the gehreleths to this situation? What, really, should the yugoloths want to gain from all of this? I'm not without ideas here, I am just getting into this campaign here and I want to discuss all of this with you guys. I won't be in the same country as my PCs until January, so there is absolutely no timeliness behind any of this.
aushlo 09-06-07, 08:49 PM	Sounds like it could be interesting, especially if you play up the mystery and intrigue. I wouldn't keep the secret too long though, it's probably important to set the PC's to determining the significance of the symbol, even if it takes ages to unfold. Specific responses: -snippity- 4) Thus, the dark of things in my campaign is that Ancient Baatorians created both the Baatezu and also a line of humanoid creatures to rule over Baator while they sleep. 4a) Potentially, the (unnamed) humanoid race was more powerful than the Baatezu. However, they suffered from a strong tendency to be corrupted by Chaos or Good and were deposed of by the more organized Baatezu. 4b) Though the Baatezu were more strongly aligned with the Nine Hells, they could never sever the humanoid connection to Baator. This is because the Ancient Baatorians still have their weird fingers in things, and would still like to have cards to play against the Baatezu. Where does Asmodeus best stand in all of this? I see him as even in cahoots with Ancient Baatorian schemes, probably forseeing most of the things that happen in this campaign. Or should he be less in the know? Or what do you all think? ------------------------------ I like it. I think the best method here, both to illustrate Asmodeus' sly kingcraft and to tie him tightly in to the action, would be to make the whole thing sort of Asmodeus' dirty little secret. Asmodeus may even have talked his creators into allowing him to put the other guardians 'on ice', or may have secretly done it after they lapsed into slumber (I like this better-they're not 'dead', but not quite alive anymore either-just out of the way). Being one of the cleverest beings in the planes, he may just be able to pull it off. Except that some of his stronger enemies have put together more information than he thinks they have. Which brings me to... ----------------------- How should I really characterize Mephistopheles when it comes down to the point? He's the one who ordered the PCs dead in the first place, and thus is the political BBEG. No effing way will I let the PCs think that they're going to fight him. Baalzebub is important in this situation, because he's probably going to want to play sides against Meph-head, is he? ---------------------------- Mephistopheles is closest to knowing the truth, and is convinced that when he figures out the true significance of the PC's, he can use it as a tool against Asmodeus when their ancient masters awaken. Also, he's placed conveniently to be able to investigate Cania more closely. Baalzebul, meanwhile, hates Asmodeus just as much as any other (probably more so), but fears any sort of fallout with Big A after his transformation. What he does know is that Mephistopheles wants the players for something, and that it seems to him that Meph wants to keep it on the DL from Big A. So Baalzebul sends his own agents to intercept Mephistopheles', which is the only thing that lets them escape eternal imprisonment by Meph. After all, if Asmo can't know, Meph can't go running to him and cry foul. In fact, Baalzebul can use Meph's reluctance to attract attention to ge on the offensive a bit. Of course, the interception is a bloodbath, and you could absolutely have the players wake up in the middle of an apparent (long finished) skirmish between Baatific forces. Maybe drop hints, like a letter of command found on the corpse of one of the commanders. ----------------------------- If I wanted to put a secret traitorous Baatezu on Carceri, who has knowledge about the PCs' connection to the Ancient Baatorians, how should I tie the gehreleths to this situation? They may know, or they may not. It's possible they're curious as to the significance of their captive. They sure as Hell aren't going to let anyone waltz in and talk to their captive, though. ----------------------------- What, really, should the yugoloths want to gain from all of this? The Yugoloths are renowned information brokers. As such, anything that makes the Archfiends nervous or excitable is absolutely something they would like to obtain for themselves, for blackmail, sale to the highest bidder, whatever. Obviously, it's valuable. That's what I've got.
sicsemperjohn 09-07-07, 07:10 AM	Thanks, Aushlo. Infighting between Baalz' and Meph is looking more and more important as I work on this. ...one complication I just thought of, is that some Yugoloth that the PCs are trying to get information out of early in the campaign, will have them steal something or otherwise inconvenience the Gehreleths a great deal, which will make it much more interesting later on when the PCs need something from them. Naturally the yugoloths had this planned out all along.
aushlo 09-12-07, 05:50 PM	Thanks, Aushlo. Infighting between Baalz' and Meph is looking more and more important as I work on this. ...one complication I just thought of, is that some Yugoloth that the PCs are trying to get information out of early in the campaign, will have them steal something or otherwise inconvenience the Gehreleths a great deal, which will make it much more interesting later on when the PCs need something from them. Naturally the yugoloths had this planned out all along. The Yugoloth might even double-cross them in secret by purposely making them targets of Gehreleth anger, then stepping conveniently in (probably not directly) to bail them out, later informing them of their debt and attempting to collect a return on that debt from a position of strength.