Ancient Beings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ancient Beings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kihon
01-04-08, 03:56 PM Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths.

Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts?
Kain_Darkwind
01-04-08, 05:59 PM Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths.

Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts?

There were the CE obyriths, the NE baernoloths and the LE baatorians.

Obyriths are less populous but still far from extinct in the Abyss, many well known demon lords such as Pale Night, Dagon and Pazuzu are obyriths.

The Baernoloths left public spotlight after creating the yugoloths. Shemmy would say they are still active. Some others feel they are just another lie of the ultroloths, used to direct people's attention away from the true evil in front of them as they look for it in hidden places.

The baatorians were wiped out nearly to extinction by the baatezu. Nupperibo can still grow into baatorians, but other than that they are extinct. Zargon the Returner (from Elder Evils) was the leader of their race and was imprisoned in the Mortal Coil because even Asmodeus lacked the ability to destroy him utterly.
Kihon
01-04-08, 10:42 PM Thanks!
Shemeska the Marauder
01-05-08, 03:21 AM Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths.

Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts?

What Kain said.

Though I'll add that technically, while the yugoloths are one of the current major fiend races, they seem to have actually originated before the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians (some myths would put the General of Gehenna, the first ultroloth, as having some formative role in the creation of those latter two). Additionally, while also a current 'major' fiend race, the demodands originated just after the 'loths, or just before, depending on the source (before the obyriths or ancient baatorians in any event).

The myths and histories of that period of course leave certain particulars -very- open to different interpretations, which is how it probably should be. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif
Kain_Darkwind
01-05-08, 06:22 PM Shem,

Do you say the yugoloths are older than the others because the idea that the yugoloths cleansed the taint of ethics from the obyriths and baatorians works better with the new origins of the tanar'ri and the baatezu?
Shemeska the Marauder
01-05-08, 11:22 PM Shem,

Do you say the yugoloths are older than the others because the idea that the yugoloths cleansed the taint of ethics from the obyriths and baatorians works better with the new origins of the tanar'ri and the baatezu?

Pretty much.

FC:I's twist on the original 'loth creation mythos would imply that the names in the original mythos were changed to fit the modern balance of power. Otherwise, while that original myth seems incompatible with the origins of the baatezu and tanar'ri, it fits what it known about the first obyriths and ancient baatezu rather neatly (with wiggle room to expand on it of course).
Kain_Darkwind
01-06-08, 12:04 AM Hmm. While I freely admit I've never been a fan of the loths behind everything (any more than the rilmani behind it all, incidentally), this does seem to tie up nicely. Of course, I'm more inclined to believe that the 'loths are of the same generation as the baatezu and tanar'ri, and if any pre-mortal shenanigans were going on, it was the Baern who accomplished them, not the yugoloths. After all, the 'leths predate the 'loths according to Faces of Evil. I'd find it far more likely that the ultroloths claimed credit for the purification of Evil when the Baern disappeared, but that the Baern were the ones to initiate it.
EaterOfTheDead
01-08-08, 07:28 PM For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings. My entire knowledge of lower planar history comes from that boxed set and three Planes of.. sets.

The adventures form a great framework for a campaign for folks that want to find a copy of the set. When I ran it the whole party fell into the River Styx in the climax and forgot the whole campaign. Classic ending.
Shemeska the Marauder
01-08-08, 07:54 PM For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings.

Daru Ib Shamiq approves!

http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/DaruIbShamiq.jpg
Deacon Liadon
01-08-08, 09:17 PM For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings. My entire knowledge of lower planar history comes from that boxed set and three Planes of.. sets.

The adventures form a great framework for a campaign for folks that want to find a copy of the set. When I ran it the whole party fell into the River Styx in the climax and forgot the whole campaign. Classic ending.

If I recall squaring the circle correctly, there's no actual evidence in it anywhere to suggest a 'lothy consipiracy.

That one's mostly down to one of Shemmy's pieces of fiction.
ripvanwormer
01-08-08, 10:17 PM If I recall squaring the circle correctly, there's no actual evidence in it anywhere to suggest a 'lothy consipiracy.

You don't recall correctly. The gist behind the adventure was summarized in The Dark of the War, page 15:

TODAY.The yugoloths decide that the time has come to rein in their purged offspring. With the aid of the Maeldur Et Kavurik, the ‘loths plan to strip the warring fiends of their power to teleport without error, then restore it only to those who swear obedlence. Wishing to remain in shadow, however, the yugoloths leak carefully planned chant to the Upper Planes. They hope to peel champions of good into unwittingly canying out the scheme for them.

Shemmy did write some fanfic expanding on this, but the idea of the yugoloth conspiracy is unambiguously from Hellbound: The Blood War.
Deacon Liadon
01-09-08, 03:49 AM Ah, thanks Rip. I haven't read it in a while.
EaterOfTheDead
01-09-08, 02:12 PM I couldn't remember a lot of the details myself, either. It has been a long time since I pulled out that set.

Of course this discussion and the urging of some of my group to run a Planescape game in 3.5 have made me think about dusting it off and building a new campaign around those adventures.
Kihon
01-09-08, 04:30 PM That is exactly what's going on. I am running an epic game that is going great (lvl 25 ave. now) and you can tell where it's heading. I really appreciate the info that is given out on the boards. Even when people disagree, the varying view points are awesome. Just wanted to say "thank you" to everyone.
The Ubbergeek
01-10-08, 07:30 PM A word; Yugoloths are the greatest Liars, they are twisters of words... Be warry of trusting any words at 100% from a being like Shemie-chan. ;) As cute as she can be. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder
01-10-08, 11:04 PM A word; Yugoloths are the greatest Liars, they are twisters of words...

http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif
sciborg3
01-11-08, 12:39 AM With the aid of the Maeldur Et Kavurik

Oh yeah, the teleportation matrix built by force feeding an infinite number of names to a single angel turned jabba-the-hut? I suspect that part of the adventure was written by the Wackwoskhi brothers. ;)
EaterOfTheDead
01-11-08, 01:49 AM Oh yeah, the teleportation matrix built by force feeding an infinite number of names to a single angel turned jabba-the-hut? I suspect that part of the adventure was written by the Wackwoskhi brothers. ;)

And dumping said creature into the River Styx was an awesome climax to the series. When I ran it back in the day the whole party got soaked in the waters and lost their memories. It was classic, I'd been running some of those characters since 1st level. My friend who had grown so attached to his bugbear ranger had fun too. My friend attached to his mage that he brought in from another game around level 10 wasn't so happy to loose his memory. The other characters were significantly newer but we all had fun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 01-04-08, 03:56 PM	Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths. Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts?
Kain_Darkwind 01-04-08, 05:59 PM	Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths. Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts? There were the CE obyriths, the NE baernoloths and the LE baatorians. Obyriths are less populous but still far from extinct in the Abyss, many well known demon lords such as Pale Night, Dagon and Pazuzu are obyriths. The Baernoloths left public spotlight after creating the yugoloths. Shemmy would say they are still active. Some others feel they are just another lie of the ultroloths, used to direct people's attention away from the true evil in front of them as they look for it in hidden places. The baatorians were wiped out nearly to extinction by the baatezu. Nupperibo can still grow into baatorians, but other than that they are extinct. Zargon the Returner (from Elder Evils) was the leader of their race and was imprisoned in the Mortal Coil because even Asmodeus lacked the ability to destroy him utterly.
Kihon 01-04-08, 10:42 PM	Thanks!
Shemeska the Marauder 01-05-08, 03:21 AM	Acknowledging that there are multiple D&D creation myths - and not giving any credit to one above the others - can someone help me out with the origional three ancient evil races. Before the Demons, Devils, & lolths. Do these ancient beings still exist? If so, wouldn't they be as powerful or more powerful then the current Demon Lords & Arch-Fiends? thoughts? What Kain said. Though I'll add that technically, while the yugoloths are one of the current major fiend races, they seem to have actually originated before the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians (some myths would put the General of Gehenna, the first ultroloth, as having some formative role in the creation of those latter two). Additionally, while also a current 'major' fiend race, the demodands originated just after the 'loths, or just before, depending on the source (before the obyriths or ancient baatorians in any event). The myths and histories of that period of course leave certain particulars -very- open to different interpretations, which is how it probably should be. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif
Kain_Darkwind 01-05-08, 06:22 PM	Shem, Do you say the yugoloths are older than the others because the idea that the yugoloths cleansed the taint of ethics from the obyriths and baatorians works better with the new origins of the tanar'ri and the baatezu?
Shemeska the Marauder 01-05-08, 11:22 PM	Shem, Do you say the yugoloths are older than the others because the idea that the yugoloths cleansed the taint of ethics from the obyriths and baatorians works better with the new origins of the tanar'ri and the baatezu? Pretty much. FC:I's twist on the original 'loth creation mythos would imply that the names in the original mythos were changed to fit the modern balance of power. Otherwise, while that original myth seems incompatible with the origins of the baatezu and tanar'ri, it fits what it known about the first obyriths and ancient baatezu rather neatly (with wiggle room to expand on it of course).
Kain_Darkwind 01-06-08, 12:04 AM	Hmm. While I freely admit I've never been a fan of the loths behind everything (any more than the rilmani behind it all, incidentally), this does seem to tie up nicely. Of course, I'm more inclined to believe that the 'loths are of the same generation as the baatezu and tanar'ri, and if any pre-mortal shenanigans were going on, it was the Baern who accomplished them, not the yugoloths. After all, the 'leths predate the 'loths according to Faces of Evil. I'd find it far more likely that the ultroloths claimed credit for the purification of Evil when the Baern disappeared, but that the Baern were the ones to initiate it.
EaterOfTheDead 01-08-08, 07:28 PM	For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings. My entire knowledge of lower planar history comes from that boxed set and three Planes of.. sets. The adventures form a great framework for a campaign for folks that want to find a copy of the set. When I ran it the whole party fell into the River Styx in the climax and forgot the whole campaign. Classic ending.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-08-08, 07:54 PM	For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings. Daru Ib Shamiq approves! http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/DaruIbShamiq.jpg
Deacon Liadon 01-08-08, 09:17 PM	For fans of the old Planescape stuff the Blood War boxed set had an interesting series of adventures that dealt with the origin myths and the fact that the 'loths are behind the scenes pulling everyone's strings. My entire knowledge of lower planar history comes from that boxed set and three Planes of.. sets. The adventures form a great framework for a campaign for folks that want to find a copy of the set. When I ran it the whole party fell into the River Styx in the climax and forgot the whole campaign. Classic ending. If I recall squaring the circle correctly, there's no actual evidence in it anywhere to suggest a 'lothy consipiracy. That one's mostly down to one of Shemmy's pieces of fiction.
ripvanwormer 01-08-08, 10:17 PM	If I recall squaring the circle correctly, there's no actual evidence in it anywhere to suggest a 'lothy consipiracy. You don't recall correctly. The gist behind the adventure was summarized in The Dark of the War, page 15: TODAY.The yugoloths decide that the time has come to rein in their purged offspring. With the aid of the Maeldur Et Kavurik, the ‘loths plan to strip the warring fiends of their power to teleport without error, then restore it only to those who swear obedlence. Wishing to remain in shadow, however, the yugoloths leak carefully planned chant to the Upper Planes. They hope to peel champions of good into unwittingly canying out the scheme for them. Shemmy did write some fanfic expanding on this, but the idea of the yugoloth conspiracy is unambiguously from Hellbound: The Blood War.
Deacon Liadon 01-09-08, 03:49 AM	Ah, thanks Rip. I haven't read it in a while.
EaterOfTheDead 01-09-08, 02:12 PM	I couldn't remember a lot of the details myself, either. It has been a long time since I pulled out that set. Of course this discussion and the urging of some of my group to run a Planescape game in 3.5 have made me think about dusting it off and building a new campaign around those adventures.
Kihon 01-09-08, 04:30 PM	That is exactly what's going on. I am running an epic game that is going great (lvl 25 ave. now) and you can tell where it's heading. I really appreciate the info that is given out on the boards. Even when people disagree, the varying view points are awesome. Just wanted to say "thank you" to everyone.
The Ubbergeek 01-10-08, 07:30 PM	A word; Yugoloths are the greatest Liars, they are twisters of words... Be warry of trusting any words at 100% from a being like Shemie-chan. ;) As cute as she can be. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 01-10-08, 11:04 PM	A word; Yugoloths are the greatest Liars, they are twisters of words... http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif
sciborg3 01-11-08, 12:39 AM	With the aid of the Maeldur Et Kavurik Oh yeah, the teleportation matrix built by force feeding an infinite number of names to a single angel turned jabba-the-hut? I suspect that part of the adventure was written by the Wackwoskhi brothers. ;)
EaterOfTheDead 01-11-08, 01:49 AM	Oh yeah, the teleportation matrix built by force feeding an infinite number of names to a single angel turned jabba-the-hut? I suspect that part of the adventure was written by the Wackwoskhi brothers. ;) And dumping said creature into the River Styx was an awesome climax to the series. When I ran it back in the day the whole party got soaked in the waters and lost their memories. It was classic, I'd been running some of those characters since 1st level. My friend who had grown so attached to his bugbear ranger had fun too. My friend attached to his mage that he brought in from another game around level 10 wasn't so happy to loose his memory. The other characters were significantly newer but we all had fun.