"What is a soul?" Theories and observations [Archive] - Wizards Community

"What is a soul?" Theories and observations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pitiless_Interfector
06-17-07, 03:15 PM Fresh off my treatise on magic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=865291), I have decided to tackle one of the fundamental questions of metaphysics: What is a soul?

Souls are largely intangible; they are almost impossible to detect or manipulate without powerful magic. However, certain beings can manipulate soulstuff, in a manner called meldshaping. And certain outsiders and deities can harness souls to power their magic. From this, two things can be observed:

Incarnum soulmelds can be manipulated and shaped much like spell patterns, and are subject to being dispelled or disrupted much like a spell, as is stated in the tenet of soulmeld-magic transparency. And certain outsiders (case in point: baatezu) can render souls down into their purest essence and use that energy to fuel their powers; especially spell-like abilities.

From those two observations, one can infer that souls and the intangible energy of magic are intimately interrelated. This becomes obvious to anyone who seriously considers the facts of souls and spells. But there always seemed a piece missing. I propose to fill that gap with this dictum: Souls come from the same intangible energy as magic. They are a pattern of magical energy, akin to a spell but so complex that only a handful of spells can directly manipulate them. They are similar to living spells in a sense, but rather than take on a physical form of their own, they bond to inert matter and give it life. This is why they are so valuable; they are magical energy condensed to enormous degrees, akin to a nuclear fusion reactor that can fit in a briefcase. The baatezu slowly disassemble the weave and pattern of the soul's energy and feed off the magical effluvia it releases, storing it in capacitors within their bodies and directing the energy via their dweomerlobes, which seem to be the point of interaction between the soul and the body and the seat of consciousness, akin to the hippocampus of the Victorian era. The reason devils do not retain their identities is because their soul pattern has been reduced to tattered rags, which are then infused with soulstuff of diabolical provenance turning them into devils, an entirely new consciousness and state of life, as the soul and the body now form one unit. Meldshapers can create their effects by taking magical energy already imprinted with soul patterns and weaving it together in a manner not unlike a spellcaster.

Of course, this begs the question of why. Why do souls bond with mortal bodies? This question may have many answers, but the one that seems most plausible is for protection. A soul with a body is more stable, and doesn't dissipate at anywhere near the rate of a freeborn soul. Of course, the true reason may lie in the whims of a dynamic entity, and are thus beyond the scope of this text. In any event, I hope you enjoyed this exploration. Feel free to post your comments and questions.
Nilbog
06-18-07, 11:39 AM Awesome.

Great thoughts, and I like the concept that in a world with magic, metaphysical/philosophical questions can be solved by experiment and observation.
Doom_Linnorm
06-18-07, 03:09 PM It is truly amazing how like minded people can be, I don't claim to actually have reached the same level of potential insight but I was also contemplating it while writing my notes on my setting's outsiders manifesting on the material plane with a separate soul and body.

(Done through a sacrifice, the outsider "possesses" the victim and evicts the soul, afterwards reshaping it into its own image, giving it some degree of protection and allowing it to be resurrected while on the material plane rather then automatically returning to its plane of origin, all done through a complicated, highly elaborate ritual that takes several days, so its quite rare.)

Anyway, I am going to use these insights to further my development in this area, thank you very much.
ArcTan
06-20-07, 06:33 AM From those two observations, one can infer that souls and the intangible energy of magic are intimately interrelated. This becomes obvious to anyone who seriously considers the facts of souls and spells. But there always seemed a piece missing. I propose to fill that gap with this dictum: Souls come from the same intangible energy as magic. They are a pattern of magical energy, akin to a spell but so complex that only a handful of spells can directly manipulate them. They are similar to living spells in a sense, but rather than take on a physical form of their own, they bond to inert matter and give it life. This is why they are so valuable; they are magical energy condensed to enormous degrees, akin to a nuclear fusion reactor that can fit in a briefcase. The baatezu slowly disassemble the weave and pattern of the soul's energy and feed off the magical effluvia it releases, storing it in capacitors within their bodies and directing the energy via their dweomerlobes, which seem to be the point of interaction between the soul and the body and the seat of consciousness, akin to the hippocampus of the Victorian era. The reason devils do not retain their identities is because their soul pattern has been reduced to tattered rags, which are then infused with soulstuff of diabolical provenance turning them into devils, an entirely new consciousness and state of life, as the soul and the body now form one unit. Meldshapers can create their effects by taking magical energy already imprinted with soul patterns and weaving it together in a manner not unlike a spellcaster.

The crux of this argument, "Souls and magic are the same thing", is, like I said on the other thread, riddled with problems. A dead magic plane doesn't prevent souls from incarnating as living beings on it. Detect magic, antimagic field, and so on don't interact with souls the way they would with spells. (An exception is that Incorporeal Undead wink out in an antimagic field -- however, the same isn't true of Petitioners or other Outsiders.)

Of course the fact that you *can* "power" spellcasting using souls by BoVD rules means something, but this just means that souls generate a kind of "energy" that magic can use. (The most common way to use a stored or entrapped soul is to replace an XP component -- XP components themselves being described as "soul energy".)

An easier thing to say is just that souls are sources of energy that can be used for various things -- magical or otherwise. All energy in the multiverse, after all, comes from the Positive Energy Plane, which in Planescape is also the place souls originate from (in fields of crystals).

Of course, this begs the question of why. Why do souls bond with mortal bodies? This question may have many answers, but the one that seems most plausible is for protection. A soul with a body is more stable, and doesn't dissipate at anywhere near the rate of a freeborn soul. Of course, the true reason may lie in the whims of a dynamic entity, and are thus beyond the scope of this text. In any event, I hope you enjoyed this exploration. Feel free to post your comments and questions.

What evidence do we have, in general, about so-called "freeborn" souls? One kind of freeborn soul, after all, is an Outsider, which can be far *more* durable than a corporeal being, since they re-form after being destroyed with all of their original abilities -- while a soul that was in a corporeal being fades away into a Petitioner after death unless its deity wills otherwise.

The idea of a soul being "protected" by its body seems fishy to me. Certainly the compound being created by a soul melding with matter needs its body to survive, but the soul itself is indestructible and survives after death (I mean, that's what resurrection is based on and what the afterlife is). In fact, it's the other way around -- a soul that finds a home in a mortal body is far more *dependent* on its body than a soul that spontaneously spawns as, say, a Tanar'ri or a Modron.
Pitiless_Interfector
06-20-07, 10:26 PM The crux of this argument, "Souls and magic are the same thing", is, like I said on the other thread, riddled with problems. A dead magic plane doesn't prevent souls from incarnating as living beings on it. Detect magic, antimagic field, and so on don't interact with souls the way they would with spells. (An exception is that Incorporeal Undead wink out in an antimagic field -- however, the same isn't true of Petitioners or other Outsiders.)

Of course the fact that you *can* "power" spellcasting using souls by BoVD rules means something, but this just means that souls generate a kind of "energy" that magic can use. (The most common way to use a stored or entrapped soul is to replace an XP component -- XP components themselves being described as "soul energy".)

An easier thing to say is just that souls are sources of energy that can be used for various things -- magical or otherwise. All energy in the multiverse, after all, comes from the Positive Energy Plane, which in Planescape is also the place souls originate from (in fields of crystals).

What evidence do we have, in general, about so-called "freeborn" souls? One kind of freeborn soul, after all, is an Outsider, which can be far *more* durable than a corporeal being, since they re-form after being destroyed with all of their original abilities -- while a soul that was in a corporeal being fades away into a Petitioner after death unless its deity wills otherwise.

The idea of a soul being "protected" by its body seems fishy to me. Certainly the compound being created by a soul melding with matter needs its body to survive, but the soul itself is indestructible and survives after death (I mean, that's what resurrection is based on and what the afterlife is). In fact, it's the other way around -- a soul that finds a home in a mortal body is far more *dependent* on its body than a soul that spontaneously spawns as, say, a Tanar'ri or a Modron.

First off, I've already replied to the detect and antifield problem on the other thread: The body-link provides the soul the stability it needs to go anywhere regardless of antimagic/null psionic/soulbanned areas (besides, with the invoke magic spell, there's no such thing as a dead magic area anymore). And the soul doesn't radiate magic because it has been bound within a living body. It's the difference between a puddle and a waterbed: one evaporates (and gives off detectable steam), the other doesn't. One will dry up in the absence of a continual source of fresh water (ambient magical energy), the other won't.

As for outsiders: On divinely morphic planes, one can assume that many of the ordinary rules don't apply. It would be reasonable to assume that on these planes, souls don't need a body; either the nature of the plane itself is such that deterioration is halted completely, or they are continually replenished by drawing in the essence of a similarly aligned plane at the same rate they decay, achieving "divine homeostasis" with their environment.

The problem you're having is one of not looking at the whole picture. If spells are composed of patterns "simple" enough for the mortal mind to manipulate, then why can't mortal spirits themselves be composed of patterns of magic so complex that many of the ordinary rules don't apply. You can't look to antimagic as your rebuttal; you think of a dead magic area as a place where magic cannot exist in any form, where magic is snuffed out and suppressed. I see it differently. A dead magic area is a place where magic is absent, but it is not actively hostile; it's just that the common means of working magic (spells and magic items) manipulate ambient magical energy, rather than carrying their source with them. Your average wizard is like a blender: very useful around the house, but a glorified doorstop when the power is cut off. But if you have a generator, then you can use it. So, no, the fact that souls exist in dead magic areas but spells don't doesn't mean they're not both magic; they're just different kinds of magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 06-17-07, 03:15 PM	Fresh off my treatise on magic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=865291), I have decided to tackle one of the fundamental questions of metaphysics: What is a soul? Souls are largely intangible; they are almost impossible to detect or manipulate without powerful magic. However, certain beings can manipulate soulstuff, in a manner called meldshaping. And certain outsiders and deities can harness souls to power their magic. From this, two things can be observed: Incarnum soulmelds can be manipulated and shaped much like spell patterns, and are subject to being dispelled or disrupted much like a spell, as is stated in the tenet of soulmeld-magic transparency. And certain outsiders (case in point: baatezu) can render souls down into their purest essence and use that energy to fuel their powers; especially spell-like abilities. From those two observations, one can infer that souls and the intangible energy of magic are intimately interrelated. This becomes obvious to anyone who seriously considers the facts of souls and spells. But there always seemed a piece missing. I propose to fill that gap with this dictum: Souls come from the same intangible energy as magic. They are a pattern of magical energy, akin to a spell but so complex that only a handful of spells can directly manipulate them. They are similar to living spells in a sense, but rather than take on a physical form of their own, they bond to inert matter and give it life. This is why they are so valuable; they are magical energy condensed to enormous degrees, akin to a nuclear fusion reactor that can fit in a briefcase. The baatezu slowly disassemble the weave and pattern of the soul's energy and feed off the magical effluvia it releases, storing it in capacitors within their bodies and directing the energy via their dweomerlobes, which seem to be the point of interaction between the soul and the body and the seat of consciousness, akin to the hippocampus of the Victorian era. The reason devils do not retain their identities is because their soul pattern has been reduced to tattered rags, which are then infused with soulstuff of diabolical provenance turning them into devils, an entirely new consciousness and state of life, as the soul and the body now form one unit. Meldshapers can create their effects by taking magical energy already imprinted with soul patterns and weaving it together in a manner not unlike a spellcaster. Of course, this begs the question of why. Why do souls bond with mortal bodies? This question may have many answers, but the one that seems most plausible is for protection. A soul with a body is more stable, and doesn't dissipate at anywhere near the rate of a freeborn soul. Of course, the true reason may lie in the whims of a dynamic entity, and are thus beyond the scope of this text. In any event, I hope you enjoyed this exploration. Feel free to post your comments and questions.
Nilbog 06-18-07, 11:39 AM	Awesome. Great thoughts, and I like the concept that in a world with magic, metaphysical/philosophical questions can be solved by experiment and observation.
Doom_Linnorm 06-18-07, 03:09 PM	It is truly amazing how like minded people can be, I don't claim to actually have reached the same level of potential insight but I was also contemplating it while writing my notes on my setting's outsiders manifesting on the material plane with a separate soul and body. (Done through a sacrifice, the outsider "possesses" the victim and evicts the soul, afterwards reshaping it into its own image, giving it some degree of protection and allowing it to be resurrected while on the material plane rather then automatically returning to its plane of origin, all done through a complicated, highly elaborate ritual that takes several days, so its quite rare.) Anyway, I am going to use these insights to further my development in this area, thank you very much.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 06:33 AM	From those two observations, one can infer that souls and the intangible energy of magic are intimately interrelated. This becomes obvious to anyone who seriously considers the facts of souls and spells. But there always seemed a piece missing. I propose to fill that gap with this dictum: Souls come from the same intangible energy as magic. They are a pattern of magical energy, akin to a spell but so complex that only a handful of spells can directly manipulate them. They are similar to living spells in a sense, but rather than take on a physical form of their own, they bond to inert matter and give it life. This is why they are so valuable; they are magical energy condensed to enormous degrees, akin to a nuclear fusion reactor that can fit in a briefcase. The baatezu slowly disassemble the weave and pattern of the soul's energy and feed off the magical effluvia it releases, storing it in capacitors within their bodies and directing the energy via their dweomerlobes, which seem to be the point of interaction between the soul and the body and the seat of consciousness, akin to the hippocampus of the Victorian era. The reason devils do not retain their identities is because their soul pattern has been reduced to tattered rags, which are then infused with soulstuff of diabolical provenance turning them into devils, an entirely new consciousness and state of life, as the soul and the body now form one unit. Meldshapers can create their effects by taking magical energy already imprinted with soul patterns and weaving it together in a manner not unlike a spellcaster. The crux of this argument, "Souls and magic are the same thing", is, like I said on the other thread, riddled with problems. A dead magic plane doesn't prevent souls from incarnating as living beings on it. Detect magic, antimagic field, and so on don't interact with souls the way they would with spells. (An exception is that Incorporeal Undead wink out in an antimagic field -- however, the same isn't true of Petitioners or other Outsiders.) Of course the fact that you can "power" spellcasting using souls by BoVD rules means something, but this just means that souls generate a kind of "energy" that magic can use. (The most common way to use a stored or entrapped soul is to replace an XP component -- XP components themselves being described as "soul energy".) An easier thing to say is just that souls are sources of energy that can be used for various things -- magical or otherwise. All energy in the multiverse, after all, comes from the Positive Energy Plane, which in Planescape is also the place souls originate from (in fields of crystals). Of course, this begs the question of why. Why do souls bond with mortal bodies? This question may have many answers, but the one that seems most plausible is for protection. A soul with a body is more stable, and doesn't dissipate at anywhere near the rate of a freeborn soul. Of course, the true reason may lie in the whims of a dynamic entity, and are thus beyond the scope of this text. In any event, I hope you enjoyed this exploration. Feel free to post your comments and questions. What evidence do we have, in general, about so-called "freeborn" souls? One kind of freeborn soul, after all, is an Outsider, which can be far more durable than a corporeal being, since they re-form after being destroyed with all of their original abilities -- while a soul that was in a corporeal being fades away into a Petitioner after death unless its deity wills otherwise. The idea of a soul being "protected" by its body seems fishy to me. Certainly the compound being created by a soul melding with matter needs its body to survive, but the soul itself is indestructible and survives after death (I mean, that's what resurrection is based on and what the afterlife is). In fact, it's the other way around -- a soul that finds a home in a mortal body is far more dependent on its body than a soul that spontaneously spawns as, say, a Tanar'ri or a Modron.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-20-07, 10:26 PM	The crux of this argument, "Souls and magic are the same thing", is, like I said on the other thread, riddled with problems. A dead magic plane doesn't prevent souls from incarnating as living beings on it. Detect magic, antimagic field, and so on don't interact with souls the way they would with spells. (An exception is that Incorporeal Undead wink out in an antimagic field -- however, the same isn't true of Petitioners or other Outsiders.) Of course the fact that you can "power" spellcasting using souls by BoVD rules means something, but this just means that souls generate a kind of "energy" that magic can use. (The most common way to use a stored or entrapped soul is to replace an XP component -- XP components themselves being described as "soul energy".) An easier thing to say is just that souls are sources of energy that can be used for various things -- magical or otherwise. All energy in the multiverse, after all, comes from the Positive Energy Plane, which in Planescape is also the place souls originate from (in fields of crystals). What evidence do we have, in general, about so-called "freeborn" souls? One kind of freeborn soul, after all, is an Outsider, which can be far more durable than a corporeal being, since they re-form after being destroyed with all of their original abilities -- while a soul that was in a corporeal being fades away into a Petitioner after death unless its deity wills otherwise. The idea of a soul being "protected" by its body seems fishy to me. Certainly the compound being created by a soul melding with matter needs its body to survive, but the soul itself is indestructible and survives after death (I mean, that's what resurrection is based on and what the afterlife is). In fact, it's the other way around -- a soul that finds a home in a mortal body is far more dependent on its body than a soul that spontaneously spawns as, say, a Tanar'ri or a Modron. First off, I've already replied to the detect and antifield problem on the other thread: The body-link provides the soul the stability it needs to go anywhere regardless of antimagic/null psionic/soulbanned areas (besides, with the invoke magic spell, there's no such thing as a dead magic area anymore). And the soul doesn't radiate magic because it has been bound within a living body. It's the difference between a puddle and a waterbed: one evaporates (and gives off detectable steam), the other doesn't. One will dry up in the absence of a continual source of fresh water (ambient magical energy), the other won't. As for outsiders: On divinely morphic planes, one can assume that many of the ordinary rules don't apply. It would be reasonable to assume that on these planes, souls don't need a body; either the nature of the plane itself is such that deterioration is halted completely, or they are continually replenished by drawing in the essence of a similarly aligned plane at the same rate they decay, achieving "divine homeostasis" with their environment. The problem you're having is one of not looking at the whole picture. If spells are composed of patterns "simple" enough for the mortal mind to manipulate, then why can't mortal spirits themselves be composed of patterns of magic so complex that many of the ordinary rules don't apply. You can't look to antimagic as your rebuttal; you think of a dead magic area as a place where magic cannot exist in any form, where magic is snuffed out and suppressed. I see it differently. A dead magic area is a place where magic is absent, but it is not actively hostile; it's just that the common means of working magic (spells and magic items) manipulate ambient magical energy, rather than carrying their source with them. Your average wizard is like a blender: very useful around the house, but a glorified doorstop when the power is cut off. But if you have a generator, then you can use it. So, no, the fact that souls exist in dead magic areas but spells don't doesn't mean they're not both magic; they're just different kinds of magic.