Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragoon_Warrior 02-08-08, 02:35 PM	I always have problems creating my own gods for my campaign. I sit down to do it and always feel like I'm leaving something out. How should I assign Domains and is it important for them to go along with Portfolios that I give these gods? What domains are a must and which ones could I leave out?Alignment for the gods and there dogma? I realize that these are not very specific question so I'm not really looking for any direct anwsers. This is more of a "how to" line of questioning. So how do most of you go about panteon creation? Where do you start and what do you focus on?
X0_Lt_0X 02-08-08, 02:50 PM	well i made a pantheon composed of 5 gods, known as "The Four and One" (the four being, chaotic, Lawful, Good and Evil, and the One being True Neutral. A cleric of this pantheon could choose any Domain he wanted as long as the domains didnt conflict (Good and Evil Domain, Law and Chaos, Fire and Water, Healing and Death, etc). It feels kinda overpowered but it worked well. It matters how big your Pantheon is thou (mines small), and if your gods are all over one religion or if they have there own separate religions Am I making sense?
Squaba 02-08-08, 03:00 PM	I pick the basics out first. Start with an idea, then think about alignments, and domains that would be appropriate with the idea. For Example: I recently started on a pantheon and wanted it to be centered around Seven Paths, each that had a small focus on one of the Seven sins and Virtues as well as a heavy Elemental theme. First: I decided the fire god should have the wrath sin associated with him, but also needed the virtue of humility in order to opposed the god I wanted it to oppose. Second: I decided on an apporpriate alignment that both suited his element, sin, and virtue. I decided I wanted him to be a good god, because he is opposed to an evil god. I also chose chaos becaus I feel fire should be chaotic and it helps makes sense of the Humility/Wrath aspect (a chaotic individual could be both vengeful, but humble) Third: I decide on some appropriate Domains. For this god I picked Chaos, Good, Fire, Power, Renewal, Sun, and Wrath. Forth: I picked a portfolio that worked with his domains, in this case Fire, Anger, Humility, Light, Day, Sun, Stars. Portfolio is a bit tricky, it needs to be things in the world that people might expeience, or are actually physical representations of an aspect of the god. In this case people who would pray for sunlight, or help remaining humble would pray to this god. Fifth: I choose clerical alignments. This is an easy step since a clerics alignment must be in one step of the god's. For this god I decided that Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, and Chaotic Neutral were apporpriate. Technically a cleric of this god could be True Neutral, but I felt that he wouldnt except a true neutral cleric and thus left it out. Sixth: Symbol and Favored weapon are mainly fluff, but need to be apporpriate to the god and good for role players. This god's sympol is "A red dirt road running through a baron desert leading towards a setting sun" the red symbolizes his color, the sun his domin over fire and the sun, and the path represents "The First Path" which he is the patron lord of. His favored weapon is "A wisp of fire (Nunchuk)" since he is a god worshiped by monks. Seventh: Some flavor text about the god, what he represnts in the world, and how his followers worhip him and pray for spells. Eighth: Some history/relations with other god in his pantheon, and other gods in the world. Finally: Some dogma and general roleplaying advice about hos a worshiper of the god acts in the world. Do this a couple times for each god Idea you have and you should be set. Domains that are a must in any pantheon are Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Healing, Life, Death, and usually the Four elements. The First Path Patron Lord: Wu Fang – The Guiding Light, Lord of Flames, the Burning Rage (Intermediate God) Symbol: A red dirt road running through a baron desert leading towards a setting sun. Alignment: Chaotic Good Portfolio: Fire, Anger, Humility, Light, Day, Sun, Stars Cleric Alignment: Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral Domains: Chaos, Good, Fire, Power, Renewal, Sun, Wrath Favored Weapon: A wisp of fire (Nunchuck) Wu Fang (woo fang), is a chaotic deity dedicated to the arts of war and the beauties of combat. Wu Fang’s virtue is humility, long ago he learned his place in the universe and no longer does he strive to move beyond, instead he teaches his followers to be content with life, to perfect themselves, and to always know that those who think themselves great seldom are. Wu Fang is guilty of the sin of wrath; he sees those who take advantage of fire’s life giving powers and grows angry. Wu Fang is the only chaotic member of the ursai pantheon and his followers embody the ever changing nature of fire, practicing both humility and war. He favors action over peace, and the other lords fear his unpredictability. Wu Fang’s unique order of chaotic monks, the Disciples of the Eternal Flame, is known throughout Halcia as formidable fighters without peer. The monastery of the First Path can be found on the equatorial Isle of Ash. The monastery itself is built within the caldera left behind by one of the dormant volcanoes that dot the island, and is constantly lit with torches and fires. Clerics of Wu Fang pray for their spells at sunset, when Wu Fang’s great eye passes beyond the horizon and his followers must be vigilant against Wu Fang’s great foe Kua Zang. History/Relationships: As lord of the First Path Wu Fang is opposed by Kua Zang and opposes Shen Yu. Although he bears no ill will toward his little brother he is insulted by the way Shen Yu’s follower’s abuse fire to make weapons without offering proper thanks. Wu Fang attempts to teach Shen Yu’s followers humility by burning them and melting their works when their attentions wane from their work. Wu Fang is always at war with Kua Zang, who seeks to destroy everything the other lords have created. Unfortunately his anger often gets the better of him and Kua Zang uses his cunning to take advantage of Wu Fang’s fits of rage. Wu Fang is allied with Ba Tsing and Lai Ping. He aids the Emerald Lass in her battle against Shen Yu, but only if he is adequately paid for his services. He enthusiastically helps Lai Ping accomplish her goals against Qua Zang. In exchange for his aid Wu Fang receives fresh clean air to fan his flames, and good solid timber to stoke his furnaces. Dogma: Temper skill with knowledge, and ability with humility. Strive for greatness but never think that you have reached the pinnacle, remember there is always another greater and more skilled than you. Never let an insult go unanswered, and act quickly, planning only allows your foes time to gather their strength.
RobbyPants 02-08-08, 03:29 PM	How should I assign Domains and is it important for them to go along with Portfolios that I give these gods? What domains are a must and which ones could I leave out?Alignment for the gods and there dogma? Well, you want the domains to make sense with the portfolio you give the deity. Obviously, you wouldn't give some benevolant protector god the Evil or War domains. I've always felt the four alignment domains were less important, so I tend to use them as filler if I'm having a tough time with it. So how do most of you go about panteon creation? Where do you start and what do you focus on? I've done this lots of ways. My "favorite" (used most out of any I've created) was very systematic and balanced. Not that this needs to be the case. I find trying to hold to some wierd system when assigning domains, alignments, and portfolios can be pretty limiting. There's nothing wrong with having three evil deities and five good ones (or whatever). I also tried making a Pantheon with about fifty deities in it, although most of them (thirty or so) were very minor, with little infulence. well i made a pantheon composed of 5 gods, known as "The Four and One" (the four being, chaotic, Lawful, Good and Evil, and the One being True Neutral. My favorite pantheon was similar to this one. I actually thought about using this five god division myself. My favorite pantheon had ten deities. The two parants were both neutral, and had the most domains. The other eight (the children) were of each of the remaining alignments. The partially neutral ones also had and element associated with them. The basic list of alignments and portfolios was as follows: Neutral: Nature Neutral: Life and Death Lawful Good: Glory and Valor Lawful Neutral: War and Earth Lawful Evil: Tyranny and Retribution Neutral Good: Magic and Water Neutral Evil: Destruction and Fire Chaotic Good: Love, Beauty, and the Arts Chaotic Neutral: Freedom, Liberation, and Air Chaotic Evil: Averice and Deceipt The only thing I didn't like about it (caused by the limitation of having a system) was that I think I should have switched the portfolios for Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil, but I didn't want Fire to go with Greed. For that reason, I've also toyed with using this same pantheon with an extra four minor deities, one for each element. I also played in a game one time where there were only three deities: one good, one evil, and nature (more of a neutral force than an actual deity). Realistically, you can do about whatever you want, so long as you do a good job incorperating it into your world.
Orchomenos 02-08-08, 04:09 PM	You can also have sub-pantheons in your pantheon. For example, you could have a core of old gods covering some basics, then a few younger gods, some hanging together, some not. A male god could marry a female god, and they would have children. (Wedding can be rare with Chaotic gods couples, a must for lawful couples, and somewhere in between for neutral gods.) Offsprings from a god are not necessary gods, they would need a portfolio for that. Reversely, a mortal who acquire enough power and a portfolio could become a god. Finally, feel free to mix some alignments. I once created a pantheon where a LG Goddess of Justice & Paladins was able to redeem a CE god of destruction; now paladin were praying to this god before going to battle. Reversely, I had three sisters called the three Roses: the NG Yellow Rose, goddess of Joy & Dance, the CG Pink Rose, goddess of Love, Beauty and Passion; and the NE Black Rose, goddess of Jealousy & Vanity. Also, you can manage to have important portfolios represented by gods of opposing alignments. For example, Heironeous vs Hextor.
GoukaRyuu 02-08-08, 04:17 PM	When making my pantheon i looked at some real life ones as well as the D&D pantheons and a few homebrews as well. Generally, there are patterns to the kinds of gods that are in each pantheon, though there can be your own personal twists on them. Depending on the culture you are making the pantheon for you create the gods that would most likely be worshiped. I decided that domain wise I wanted all the PHB domains to be represented as well as others from FR and elsewhere. I actually did portfolios first and only decided on domains after I had what each god represented. As D&DG explains, domains show what kind of god your deity is. I hope this is understandable. :D Oh and good luck it can be tough making a pantheon. It took me nearly a year to get the pantheon that's further down the list in the forum and still need to write out the fluff for the majority of them. P.S. Kudos to the guy who made 50 that must have taken forever.
Lincoln Hills 02-08-08, 05:02 PM	Look at any Earthly polytheism and you won't see a tidy interlocking-parts system. The myths about these gods came before the gods. So my best advice is to start out by telling yourself a brief fable about each of these gods. Example: "Paulixien often travelled away from the Abode to seek adventure. Often he would go to the land of the giants, whom he loved to trick and whose precious stones he would steal for the sport of it." Then, construct your pantheon based on the story you've told. In the example above, we already know that - - Paulixien likes to travel (a possible domain)... - There is a land of giants (either an outer plane or part of the mortal world) and the giants have reason to dislike Paulixien (a possible religious precept, or racial prejudice). - Paulixien is a trickster and a thief (which suggests a couple of domains, and rules out a couple of alignments for the god.) Example 2: "After the Naga God slew Hoboroc, the vultures who fed on the dead god's flesh were transformed into demons. When Shimarha arrived, she drove away these demons and sought to return Hoboroc's life: but instead he rose as the undead god, Amakhar." - The god of the nagas is an enemy to at least some of this pantheon. - Origin of a demonic race (at least, according to this religion's beliefs). - Shimarha is/was an ally of Hoboroc. - A domain for Shimarha's priests (healing) is suggested, as well as a possible power (turning demons, a function of Sacred Exorcists) - A taboo about restoring life (for gods, anyway) is probably part of the religion. - Amakhar is an undead god (when the story goes on, it might clarify whether he's evil, whether he is a god of undead or whether his domains don't actually have anything to do with that status, and whether the former worshippers of Hoboroc still worship Amakhar or have turned away.) In general, a half-dozen of these stories involving the same gods should provide you with a good spread of alignments (not all alignments have to have a god), domains (not all domains have to be available in a pantheon), and beliefs (it's a good idea to have at least one militant god and one pacifistic one, but a very violent or very pacifist religion might not.) Odds are that friendship and enmity within the pantheon (and probably among their worshippers) will also be clearly spelled out by then.
TimelordSimone 02-08-08, 05:46 PM	So my best advice is to start out by telling yourself a brief fable about each of these gods. I did that for the minor gods of my pantheon. For the major ones, I just sort of decided what they'd be. (Death, Life, Magic, Nature, etc) But even then, after they were done, I came up with stories and changed them quite a bit. (for example, there were originally two Gods of Fate, but one went insane, becoming God of Luck, leaving his sister as Goddess of Fate. She then granted her divinity to 5 young girls, who are now the Goddesses of Fate.)
Nogitsune_Teumessia 02-08-08, 06:06 PM	Deities in real life tend to be based on natural phenomenon (sun, ice, darkness, etc), emotions (hope, fear, love, etc), or human activities (fishing, smithing, war, etc) so I usually start with one of these. After that I consider what else might be associated with the one I choose (if I were to choose sun, for instance, I might consider the portfolio to have heat, light, and fire) I'd then check to see what portfolio items would translate into domains. If I wanted more I'd look at real life deities for help (sun deities, for instance, usually have healing associated with them). As for alignments I usually consider a deity based solely on natural phenomenon to be at least partly neutral where as a deity based on a positive emotion is usually good while one based on a negative emotion is usually evil. Human activities are harder to judge, though more benign ones (like farming) could be considered good while more destructive ones (like war) could be considered evil, though there's no reason a war deity couldn't be good. It really depends on what you want to see. Hope this helps some. Good luck.
Eldritch_Lord 02-08-08, 06:44 PM	I try to have historical bases for the deities in my pantheon, so I tend to pick 3 pantheons, say, Greek + Hindu + Norse; research the gods, their worshipers, and overall mythology; figure out what, if anything, would be different if magic worked (addition of god(s)/goddess(es) of magic, adjustments to theology, etc.) and other assumptions of D&D were real; then mash the pantheons together, add my own twist based on the world and the cosmology, and voila! A pantheon that's very realistic yet makes sense in D&D. Were I to make a pantheon from scratch, I would: Figure out how people of the given world would feel about gods and divine magic; Figure out how gods are related to the world (active/distant, creators/enemies, etc.); Figure out the main "themes" of the campaign (seafaring, anti-undead, etc.); Assign key themes to multiple gods in the form of relevant portfolios and domains; Make sure every domain choice and portfolio I want in is covered; and Create a "backup list" of 20 fairly random gods for local gods/goddesses I might need quickly. I don't know if that helps, but there you go.
Naderion 02-09-08, 07:01 AM	I started rather unimaginative (sp?) and first made a list of all dieities I know that I think are cool and took their concepts as a basis. Then I compared them all with each other and merged those together that are very similar in their basic ideas. For example, my god Helkaron is based on Lathander, Marthammor, and Baervan Wildwanderer. Since in this setting, the gods are "divine forces" and not "people", humans, dwarves, and gnomes can still have their own religions, but their prayers reach the same divine force, so one deity is enough and I don't need three. The problem with this approach is, that it takes some real efforts to not have them look like cheap copies of deities of existing settings. I'm still working on that. :D I also chosed to make a differance between "philosophical" divine forces (outsiders) and "natural" divine forces (fey). Clerics are connected to the divine gods, druids to the natural fey. Because of that, the domains of Animal, Plant, and Sun don't appear in any domain lists, because they are not part of the devine gods portfolios. (Though there's still the moon domain, I just like it. :D)
faghter_hero 02-09-08, 12:44 PM	I once built a pantheon based on opposites. All gods had the Magic domain available and two contradictory domains (sometimes you could only take one), and the only alignment requirement for Clerics was any Neutral. For example, the god of Law and Chaos was the god of all ethics, the god of Fire and Ice was the god of all temperature, the god of Peace and War was the god of politics, etc... The system favored Cleric/Wizards and Theruges more than straight Clerics who wanted to mix domains they wanted, so it ended up being a tight pantheon under one religion so Clerics could take multiple gods for the domains they wanted. Kind of the same as no pantheon anyway, but still interesting. Generally if you look at the spells and powers available to domains and find ones that work well together, or cover a lot of ground in combination, you can satisfy players, but good luck making sense out of your results.
Tovec 02-09-08, 01:40 PM	I always have problems creating my own gods for my campaign. I sit down to do it and always feel like I'm leaving something out. How should I assign Domains and is it important for them to go along with Portfolios that I give these gods? What domains are a must and which ones could I leave out?Alignment for the gods and there dogma? I realize that these are not very specific question so I'm not really looking for any direct anwsers. This is more of a "how to" line of questioning. So how do most of you go about panteon creation? Where do you start and what do you focus on? I recently created a pantheon and I'll try and outline what I did to accomplish this. What roles do you need? I determined I needed 1 of every alignment. I said I wanted DEATH to be LN. I didn't want the Sun God to be NG and moved on from there. What things can you keep or slightly alter? I looked over the racial gods and determined that I liked having them be the creators of their race. I shuffled around Orcs, Elves and Gnomes to more accurately describe my world and them moved on. Start creating new gods. This one was tricky but I found it helpful to try and ask, why would someone worship this god? Other helpful things are to try and personify an alignment. Don't necessarily look at the previous pantheons you know. Explore around and look at any pantheon you can. I determined a NG god of magic and knowledge was far more in keeping then a vengeful NG god of the sun. I liked the way Yugoloths were depicted as the "final shadow" and created my NE god to reflect this. Portfolio Elements and Domains are a little harder but try and get a picture of the god in your mind. Their gender, race, possible class(es) and then try and alter some of these to see if you get a new result and like that new result. I had always liked a male human LG god of war and honour but then I asked myself why not a female god of war? It changes things up and doesn't automatically bring back thoughts of 'erroneous.' The actual portfolio elements should be things that reflect what the god is all about or what they care for. Domains should be tools instead of just descriptors. The domains should help the god perform the miracles of legend and not tie their hands. I know its pretty rambley but if you can follow it I think it should help.
CryoSilver 02-09-08, 01:53 PM	When I create pantheons, I ask the biggest question first: monotheistic, dualistic or polytheistic. Monotheism: This kind of thing tends to dramatically alter your game world. Now, whoever is not the same alignment as the one god is some sort of depraved lunatic or monster. In standard D&D cosmology, if you're evil, you can expect that when yo die, you may become a low-ranking demon. In a monotheism, you're doomed if you don't follow the one god. This god accepts clerics like a normal D&D god, but probably grants almost all domains. Dualism: Easier, but I don't like it, since you're still excluding several alignment combinations for the clerics. Imagine Christianity, except with Satan as an actual god, rather thana fallen angel, with powers equal to that of God. Polytheism: The easiest and yet hardest of them all. D&D has some really strange and oddly specific gods. Honestly, some of them just seem totally superfluous to me. That aside, you should have one god of each alignment, and you should cover all of the important things in a D&D world: life, death, magic, good, law, evil, and chaos are the big ones. The elements are important too, but they can just get dumped onto a nature god. The racial gods are optional, I think. It depends how powerful you want the gods to be. In D&D, the leaning seems to be toward "really really powerful, but still beatable" in which case, racial gods seem reasonable. If the gods are omnipotent, they make less sense, since an indivdual race seems oddly specific for a god.
Eldritch_Lord 02-09-08, 02:23 PM	The racial gods are optional, I think. It depends how powerful you want the gods to be. In D&D, the leaning seems to be toward "really really powerful, but still beatable" in which case, racial gods seem reasonable. If the gods are omnipotent, they make less sense, since an indivdual race seems oddly specific for a god. I've never seen a point to or a need for racial gods. Do we consider the Judeo-Christian Yahweh/the Father a "human racial deity"? How about the Islamic Allah? The Hindu deities? No; they aren't racial gods, they're Gods. Just because a deity happens to make a race doesn't mean it should be obsessed with that race; if it did, the Greek gods wouldn't be the way they are. Besides, there isn't a human racial deity in D&D. Okay, yes, there's Wastri, but that's no so much pro-human as anti-everyone-else. If humans can do without, so can everyone else.
Naderion 02-09-08, 03:22 PM	I've never seen a point to or a need for racial gods. Do we consider the Judeo-Christian Yahweh/the Father a "human racial deity"? How about the Islamic Allah? The Hindu deities? No; they aren't racial gods, they're Gods. Just because a deity happens to make a race doesn't mean it should be obsessed with that race; if it did, the Greek gods wouldn't be the way they are. This is actually full of errors, but it doesn't make a change to your point.
Eldritch_Lord 02-09-08, 05:34 PM	This is actually full of errors, but it doesn't make a change to your point. If you wouldn't mind explaining what you think my errors were, I'd appreciate it, here or in PM. My point probably didn't come across very well with modern examples, so let me try again. Take a look at the Greek gods. You have Zeus, king of the gods, whose portfolio includes storms and such. You have Hades, lord of the underworld. You have Poseidon, god of the sea. All of these gods have varied portfolios, and while they are interested with and concerned about the affairs of humans, that isn't their only concern. Now look at Yondalla, goddess of halflings. What is her one major accomplishment that we know of? Um...she created the halflings. What's in her portfolio? Make that...halflings. Who worships her? Halflings. Where do you see images of her? Halfling cities. Do you have any non-halfling clerics of Yondalla? No; you can't. Do any non-halflings care about her? Mmm...probably not. So while Zeus and Yondalla both are worshiped by their respective races, are both concerned with and heavily active in the affairs of their respective races, and are both associated with their respective races, Zeus is a human deity but Yondalla is a halfling racial deity. See where I'm coming from?
Tovec 02-09-08, 06:05 PM	If you wouldn't mind explaining what you think my errors were, I'd appreciate it, here or in PM. My point probably didn't come across very well with modern examples, so let me try again. Take a look at the Greek gods. You have Zeus, king of the gods, whose portfolio includes storms and such. You have Hades, lord of the underworld. You have Poseidon, god of the sea. All of these gods have varied portfolios, and while they are interested with and concerned about the affairs of humans, that isn't their only concern. Now look at Yondalla, goddess of halflings. What is her one major accomplishment that we know of? Um...she created the halflings. What's in her portfolio? Make that...halflings. Who worships her? Halflings. Where do you see images of her? Halfling cities. Do you have any non-halfling clerics of Yondalla? No; you can't. Do any non-halflings care about her? Mmm...probably not. So while Zeus and Yondalla both are worshiped by their respective races, are both concerned with and heavily active in the affairs of their respective races, and are both associated with their respective races, Zeus is a human deity but Yondalla is a halfling racial deity. See where I'm coming from? You picked a bad comparison. Yondolla is a crappy goddess in and of herself. Zeus isn't a human god (solely) in DnD terms. It only says he takes the form of a human man. Many gods do. Compare Zeus to Corellon Larethian and you might have a proper comparison. Once again we find that Corellon is mainly worshipped by elves. He also happens to be god of warfare and magics. Zeus is god of storms. Outside being the father of gods he really doesn't have much that would make people want to follow his teachings. "Wow, its really stormy today, better thank/fear Zeus." or "Oh crap, I'm in an un-win-able battle, Corellon protect me." I don't find that racial gods are all that useful or well represented. Often I find that the racial god doesn't even act as their race. Kurtulmak took the Kobold fetish for making traps and got himself killed. Corellon didn't hide in his forests, he went off and blotted an eye out of the orc god Gruumsh. Like I said, I advise the Dragon_Warrior to think of what he needs then move on from there.
Eldritch_Lord 02-09-08, 08:50 PM	You picked a bad comparison. Yondolla is a crappy goddess in and of herself. Zeus isn't a human god (solely) in DnD terms. It only says he takes the form of a human man. Many gods do. Compare Zeus to Corellon Larethian and you might have a proper comparison. Once again we find that Corellon is mainly worshipped by elves. He also happens to be god of warfare and magics. Zeus is god of storms. Outside being the father of gods he really doesn't have much that would make people want to follow his teachings. "Wow, its really stormy today, better thank/fear Zeus." or "Oh crap, I'm in an un-win-able battle, Corellon protect me." However, (A) he is still mainly concerned with the elves, (B) he can't have clerics of other races, and (C) he is overshadowed by other gods in his portfolio. I'll grant you (A), as real-world Zeus would obviously be concerned with humans, but (B) and (C) are my issues. The fact that racial deities can only have clerics of their race doesn't make them "real" gods to me; "You can't worship me because you're a different species" isn't a good basis for religion. Corellon may be a god of magic and war...but Kord, Heironius, and Erythnul cover war pretty well, and Boccob and Wee Jas have magic--and they aren't elf-only deities. My main point is that the racial deities are overly-restrictive and are overshadowed by others, making them at most sub-deities rather than "true" deities. I don't find that racial gods are all that useful or well represented. Often I find that the racial god doesn't even act as their race. Kurtulmak took the Kobold fetish for making traps and got himself killed. Corellon didn't hide in his forests, he went off and blotted an eye out of the orc god Gruumsh. Like I said, I advise the Dragon_Warrior to think of what he needs then move on from there. That's my stance as well; what's the point for them at all? And Naderion, I'm still waiting for a list of errors in my "full of errors" post.
RobbyPants 02-09-08, 09:22 PM	The racial gods are optional, I think. It depends how powerful you want the gods to be. In D&D, the leaning seems to be toward "really really powerful, but still beatable" in which case, racial gods seem reasonable. If the gods are omnipotent, they make less sense, since an indivdual race seems oddly specific for a god. In every pantheon I've made, I've left them out. More often than not, *most* members of a race are attracted to one particular deity be it either for alignment or portfolio reasons. Still, that deity isn't tecnically devoted to members of that race explicitly.
Naderion 02-10-08, 05:52 AM	I've never seen a point to or a need for racial gods. Do we consider the Judeo-Christian Yahweh/the Father a "human racial deity"? How about the Islamic Allah? The Hindu deities? No; they aren't racial gods, they're Gods. Just because a deity happens to make a race doesn't mean it should be obsessed with that race; if it did, the Greek gods wouldn't be the way they are. Okay. I'm a religion major at university, so I felt compelled to point that out. ;) - "Jahwe as a human deity": This deity has become the god of mankind only later in history. Before that, he was the god only of the jewish people. Not a race in the D&D sense of the term, but as we have only humans in this world, nations would be the equivalent of fantasy races. - "Allah": Allah isn't another god. He's explicitly stated to be exactly the same god that jews and christians pray to. The islam originally started as a christian sect and then simply the "arab branch" of the faith of god. It was only later (20 years or so), that the islam was considered to be the true way of revering god and that jews and christians served him too, but they were not as close to knowing the true will of god as the muslims did. - "Greek Gods creating humans": I'm not completely sure about this, but I don't think it is said that the "olympian" gods created the humans. Zeus despised them and had a lot of confrontations with the titan Prometheus when the later tried several times to ease the hardships of the humans who lived a meager existance on earth. - Not so sure about the Hindu gods, I don't really think they have been gods for all mankind, though I may be mistaken there.
Eldritch_Lord 02-10-08, 11:36 AM	Okay. I'm a religion major at university, so I felt compelled to point that out. ;) No offense taken. - "Jahwe as a human deity": This deity has become the god of mankind only later in history. Before that, he was the god only of the jewish people. Not a race in the D&D sense of the term, but as we have only humans in this world, nations would be the equivalent of fantasy races. That's exactly my point. Do we have Him (or another) as the god or God of the whole human race? No; he has a more limited portfolio. - "Allah": Allah isn't another god. He's explicitly stated to be exactly the same god that jews and christians pray to. The islam originally started as a christian sect and then simply the "arab branch" of the faith of god. It was only later (20 years or so), that the islam was considered to be the true way of revering god and that jews and christians served him too, but they were not as close to knowing the true will of god as the muslims did. Well, yes, but I just wanted to point out that He had a different name, and I didn't want to lump Him in with the Judeo-Christian tradition because (so far as I know) the Qur'an doesn't build off the Judeo-Christian Bible the way the New Testament follows the Torah. - "Greek Gods creating humans": I'm not completely sure about this, but I don't think it is said that the "olympian" gods created the humans. Zeus despised them and had a lot of confrontations with the titan Prometheus when the later tried several times to ease the hardships of the humans who lived a meager existance on earth. You'll notice in my Zeus/Yondalla comparison I specifically didn't say that Zeus created humans. ;) That said, I believe the two most common Greek creation myths are stuff just coming out of Chaos, begetting Chronus and Rhea and all the rest thereafter, and...something about a huge black bird begetting Eros and one other, but I don't remember that one very well. - Not so sure about the Hindu gods, I don't really think they have been gods for all mankind, though I may be mistaken there. Again, that's my point. You have human-centric gods, and you have gods that only humans worship (obviously), and you have gods that created humanity, but you have no real-life analog for the "racial deity" concept as it exists in D&D.
Tovec 02-10-08, 12:52 PM	However, (A) he is still mainly concerned with the elves, (B) he can't have clerics of other races, and (C) he is overshadowed by other gods in his portfolio. I'll grant you (A), as real-world Zeus would obviously be concerned with humans, but (B) and (C) are my issues. The fact that racial deities can only have clerics of their race doesn't make them "real" gods to me; "You can't worship me because you're a different species" isn't a good basis for religion. Corellon may be a god of magic and war...but Kord, Heironius, and Erythnul cover war pretty well, and Boccob and Wee Jas have magic--and they aren't elf-only deities. My main point is that the racial deities are overly-restrictive and are overshadowed by others, making them at most sub-deities rather than "true" deities. That's my stance as well; what's the point for them at all? And Naderion, I'm still waiting for a list of errors in my "full of errors" post. Why can't a racial god be worshipped by outside their race? It specifically says in the dragon gods' descriptions that they are worshipped by non-dragons. I don't see why the same can't be said about other racial gods. If anything I think I provided the best racial god for why others can worship them. I agreed that the racial gods sucked but if you look at the 'Races Of' books you quickly realize that these gods would be fairly needed. Just as in many of the other texts you realize that Pelor would be widely respected by average humans as a sun god for farms. Corellon would be revered for the forests. Again he dabbles in magic, war, nature and others. This is my main problem with him but his creation of elves, a magical and powerful race I think does entitle him to some respect. I think when you try and redo a pantheon you have the opportunity to revamp the stale and crappy gods, including the racial ones, to turn them into something that would actually be worshipped. In my new pantheon the LG goddess of war is an elf (most-likely) in appearance. Does that mean she will only be worshipped by elves? Of course not. By all means, if you feel that racial gods are not needed or are poorly represented or whatever then don't include them in your pantheon. I find that most pantheons tend to include some sort of racial deity for the major races (of non-humans).
Eldritch_Lord 02-10-08, 12:57 PM	Why can't a racial god be worshipped by outside their race? It specifically says in the dragon gods' descriptions that they are worshipped by non-dragons. I don't see why the same can't be said about other racial gods. If anything I think I provided the best racial god for why others can worship them. They can be worshipped informally, but they can't have clerics of different races. That's what I consider to be "worship" of a god. I agreed that the racial gods sucked but if you look at the 'Races Of' books you quickly realize that these gods would be fairly needed. Just as in many of the other texts you realize that Pelor would be widely respected by average humans as a sun god for farms. Corellon would be revered for the forests. Again he dabbles in magic, war, nature and others. This is my main problem with him but his creation of elves, a magical and powerful race I think does entitle him to some respect. Ehlonna and Obad-Hai have the forests, Boccob and Wee Jas have magic, Kord and Heironius have war, and the whole Seldarine has elves as well. I think when you try and redo a pantheon you have the opportunity to revamp the stale and crappy gods, including the racial ones, to turn them into something that would actually be worshipped. In my new pantheon the LG goddess of war is an elf (most-likely) in appearance. Does that mean she will only be worshipped by elves? Of course not. Like I said above, In my view, just because a god looks like and elf and likes elves doesn't make that god a racial deity. By all means, if you feel that racial gods are not needed or are poorly represented or whatever then don't include them in your pantheon. I find that most pantheons tend to include some sort of racial deity for the major races (of non-humans). And I don't; I'm just expressing my opinions and reasons for not including them, not trying to convert you or others to my position by any means.
TimelordSimone 02-10-08, 12:58 PM	On the subject of racial deities... In my pantheon, only a couple of the 'racial deities' are actually specifically in charge of that race. (To start with, they accept clerics of any race...) Only one of them created his race, and all of them are in charge of other things. Also, worship of the 'racial deities' is generally considered backwards and old-fashioned. The majority of people these days worship their regional deity.
Eldritch_Lord 02-10-08, 04:10 PM	Also, worship of the 'racial deities' is generally considered backwards and old-fashioned. Now that's a different approach--stick them in, but make them obviously inferior...hmmm...I might try that sometime.
MC_Templar 02-10-08, 05:55 PM	Again, that's my point. You have human-centric gods, and you have gods that only humans worship (obviously), and you have gods that created humanity, but you have no real-life analog for the "racial deity" concept as it exists in D&D. I would argue in favor of racial deities for a few specific reasons. (and under specific circumstances) One, most of the D&D races don't homogenize over time. A group of dwarves living in human society don't become any less dwarves 10 generations later than they were when they began. Halflings as well, the racial divide in these circumstances would be an ever-present factor that would tend to lead to racially-specific cultural expression. Myths and religions would likely need to explain the racial differences, and most cultures would explain such differences in ways that promote pride in the inner members of the group. So religions based on racial superiority and pride would likely be common. Two, Most D&D games have the racial groups being a fairly cohesive cultural unit. When it becomes no longer easy to steriotype the whole of a race, we end up with 'sub-race' groupings. Drow, Duegar, Gully Dwarves, etc, Leaving the term "Dwarf" localized to a group with a fairly unified set of customs and traditions. Meaning the gods of any members of the group that would be called "Dwarf" would likely be similar. I know these arguements don't apply to everyone's game world, or in every situation, but they are things that may be worth considering when designing pantheons.... especially before you dump the racial deity concept entirely. Another way to do racial deities with less work is to use the same human pantheons under different names (and occassional tweaks to portfolios if you're feeling fun) so two clerics to the same god, can have completely divergant world views and have spirited theological discussions.
Eldritch_Lord 02-10-08, 06:41 PM	I would argue in favor of racial deities for a few specific reasons. (and under specific circumstances) One, most of the D&D races don't homogenize over time. A group of dwarves living in human society don't become any less dwarves 10 generations later than they were when they began. Halflings as well, the racial divide in these circumstances would be an ever-present factor that would tend to lead to racially-specific cultural expression. Myths and religions would likely need to explain the racial differences, and most cultures would explain such differences in ways that promote pride in the inner members of the group. So religions based on racial superiority and pride would likely be common. Which then begs the question, "Why don't humans have racial deities in any official settings?" Two, Most D&D games have the racial groups being a fairly cohesive cultural unit. When it becomes no longer easy to steriotype the whole of a race, we end up with 'sub-race' groupings. Drow, Duegar, Gully Dwarves, etc, Leaving the term "Dwarf" localized to a group with a fairly unified set of customs and traditions. Meaning the gods of any members of the group that would be called "Dwarf" would likely be similar. Which then begs the question, "Why (apart from the Realms) aren't there region-specific deities in any official settings?" I know these arguements don't apply to everyone's game world, or in every situation, but they are things that may be worth considering when designing pantheons.... especially before you dump the racial deity concept entirely. Both of them require considering non-humans separately from humans when designing cultures and religions, and I'd much rather dump the rather redundant racial deities entirely than make some for humans and just add to pantheon bloat. Another way to do racial deities with less work is to use the same human pantheons under different names (and occassional tweaks to portfolios if you're feeling fun) so two clerics to the same god, can have completely divergant world views and have spirited theological discussions. That's usually what I do. Halflings give gods different names than the human do, and likewise with the other races.
Tovec 02-10-08, 06:46 PM	They can be worshipped informally, but they can't have clerics of different races. That's what I consider to be "worship" of a god. Show me where it says a CG human can't get spells from Corellon and I'll eat my words. Ehlonna and Obad-Hai have the forests, Boccob and Wee Jas have magic, Kord and Heironius have war, and the whole Seldarine has elves as well. The fact that you bring up at least 2 gods per aspect of Corellon shows why having yet another isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither of the nature gods are god of 'forests' as many would say Corellon is. The Seldarine is Corellon's group, without him the rest make no sense. Without CL, Drow and Lolth make no sense. Like I said above, In my view, just because a god looks like and elf and likes elves doesn't make that god a racial deity. Again, I don't see where someone who isn't an elf but follows Corellon isn't allowed. And I don't; I'm just expressing my opinions and reasons for not including them, not trying to convert you or others to my position by any means. Fair enough. Same here.
Franco Un-American 02-10-08, 09:17 PM	Show me where it says a CG human can't get spells from Corellon and I'll eat my words. Player's Handbook, Page 106, first column, under the Religion heading, halfway through the second paragraph,
Tovec 02-10-08, 09:37 PM	Player's Handbook, Page 106, first column, under the Religion heading, halfway through the second paragraph, Appreciate it. Didn't know that. Often broke it without knowing it. The rule is stupid, putting even more restriction on racial deities to make them stupider. Wonder how you categorize a racial deity though. Doesn't make the other arguments (on both side) less relevant.
Eldritch_Lord 02-11-08, 01:20 PM	Show me where it says a CG human can't get spells from Corellon and I'll eat my words. Shown by Franco. The fact that you bring up at least 2 gods per aspect of Corellon shows why having yet another isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither of the nature gods are god of 'forests' as many would say Corellon is. The Seldarine is Corellon's group, without him the rest make no sense. Without CL, Drow and Lolth make no sense. The difference is that Boccob, for example, is the god of magic, and Wee Jas is the god of death and magic (or death magic, either way), but CL is a god of elves...who happens to have magic in his portfolio. Same with forests: Obad-Hai is god of nature, Ehlonna is goddess of the woodlands, but CL is a god of elves...who happens to have forests in his portfolio. The Seldarine make sense without CL: The elven versions of the "real" pantheon, other gods under elven names, or such as that. The drow and Lolth make sense without CL--Lolth is goddess of spiders, who looks like a drow. The drow worship her because she says so (don't mess with a goddess) and they carry over the spider theme into their art, society, and so on. CL is not unilaterally worshiped and he isn't described as anything besides god of the elves. If Boccob looked like, oh, a gnome, and the gnomes took his teachings and applied them to everything they did, that wouldn't make him "god of gnomes" because (A) he has another primary concern, magic, and (B) the members of the gnome race only revere him because they all happen to worship him, not because he has any abstract significance to gnomes as a whole. Didn't know that. Often broke it without knowing it. The rule is stupid, putting even more restriction on racial deities to make them stupider. Exactly. Wonder how you categorize a racial deity though. Doesn't make the other arguments (on both side) less relevant. I've tried to lay out my view of what a racial deity is, and hopefully my comments above will help as well.
michel andre 02-12-08, 10:58 AM	I always have problems creating my own gods for my campaign. I sit down to do it and always feel like I'm leaving something out. So how do most of you go about panteon creation? Where do you start and what do you focus on? Research your favorite historical pantheon. Real deities are more interesting than ones created only for a game. You then may want to change the names and some myths for your own creative purposes.
CryoSilver 02-12-08, 12:36 PM	Though when converting a real-world pantheon, you do need to consider that the real world never had dragons and magic and account for that.
RobbyPants 02-12-08, 09:20 PM	P.S. Kudos to the guy who made 50 that must have taken forever. Thanks. It actually wasn't that bad in and of itself. I just did shorthand. I created a table in Word with columns for things like name, alignment, portfolio, domains, divine rank, favored weapon, and favored colors. So, basically, I didn't come up with any written down dogma for any of the deities. Only about 15 or so would be interesting to players, as the bulk of them were very minior deities or demigods. The part that did suck was I accidentially deleted the wrong file afterward, so I had to redo it! :eek: :tantrum:
Eldritch_Lord 02-12-08, 09:48 PM	The part that did suck was I accidentially deleted the wrong file afterward, so I had to redo it! :eek: :tantrum: Man, that sucks. A mini-Ragnarok on your computer, and nothing the gods can do.
MadPrak_Mark2 02-13-08, 05:26 PM	The main tip in the books and articles in Dragon that talk about making one's own Pantheons is to make sure all of the core domains are represented. However, this can be a bit flexible, as if you don't have or play down the importance of something in your campaign world, you don't need a domain for it. For example, if one cannot gain powers over the elemental forces and they are supposed to be mysterious things that one can only hope to emulate through arcane magic, you probably don't want elemental domains. Another thing that is completely optional, it's important for the gods to make sense, but that doesn't mean you have to use common, completely obvious or traditional sense. One thing I find fun is to have a god that doesn't make sense and then make him make sense. For example, an evil god of benevolent protection. This could make sense if in your world evil is a more xenophobic philosophy than a force defined as a hatred of everything(as most people seem to portray it). Perhaps the god is a monstrous fiend who opposes the forces of good for some age old slight, but is very protective of and kind to those who are loyal to him, whether followers or friends. Of course, alot of people are going to say this is more chaotic, but... no one knows what the hell chaos is... not even the designers.
Eldritch_Lord 02-14-08, 12:01 AM	Of course, alot of people are going to say this is more chaotic, but... no one knows what the hell chaos is... not even the designers. Nitpick: Shouldn't it be "no one knows what the Abyss chaos is"? ;)
Bloodsoul 02-15-08, 04:09 AM	Isn't that what exactly makes chaos so.. chaotic? Or maybe I'm thinking too far ahead into the Far Realms...
Eldritch_Lord 02-15-08, 07:42 PM	Isn't that what exactly makes chaos so.. chaotic? Exactly. If your chaos is predictable...you're doing it wrong. Or maybe I'm thinking too far ahead into the Far Realms... Chaos =/= mind-shattering insanity. ;)
CryoSilver 02-16-08, 12:44 AM	Chaos can mean a lot of things. Chaos can be random, or it can just be change.
Naderion 02-16-08, 01:19 PM	When it comes to statistics and chances, the greater the chaos is, the greater the probabilities are. It sounds paradox, but real chaos creates better order than any planning can ever acomplish. Chaos and Order are not opposites, but two points on a ring-shaped spectrum.
MadPrak_Mark2 02-17-08, 02:14 AM	What I mean is that law and chaos don't mean any single thing under the rules, they can mean any of a number of things, and material has been written using pretty much every interpretation in an attempt to accomodate all styles of play which accomplishes precisely nothing. They're also not mutually exclusive. Look up the descriptions in the PHB next time you're looking through it, read 'em. try and keep a straight face while pretending they are mutually exclusive concepts.
Naderion 02-17-08, 07:17 AM	I've lloked up the descriptions in the PHB several times and I think it's save to say they are garbage. Because of exactly that. They say do this and this and this and this and you're are lawful, do that and that and that and that, and you're chaotic. Should rather explain the ideas behind order and chaos. I think older books did that better.
MadPrak_Mark2 02-17-08, 06:20 PM	I don't know about the older books(though I bet 2nd did a pretty good job... I've seen too much fecal matter in gygax's writing to have any hope for it in 1st) but the best dichotomy I've found is that Law thinks every one should act one way, theirs, and Chaos doesn't care. Neutrality would, I suppose, be a nebulous area in which you want some things a certain way but don't care about others.
Namer_and_Shaper 02-18-08, 03:49 PM	I'm not a expert, but forget "domains" and "alignments" for now. Heres some things I think you need: 1. A good balance between Forces of Nature gods (sun, time, earth) which are worshiped because they are constantly over or around people. Force of Nature gods are timeless, truely immortal and without true personality. Regal gods (storm, death, trade, war), Regal gods are like Thor or Mars, they are worshiped out of fear and awe, but their powers are not a constant threat and may be worshiped once a year in a festival or whenever they strike (eg. a lightening storm, a war). They are archetypes, "evil", "king", "wise", but not people. Local gods (dead king, volcano, a particular river or lake ) which are worshiped because they are a symbol of a people or known, commonly tred place. Local gods are tricksters and heroes, and are so distinct in personality they may even have a family and be friends with historical persons. Think; Jack Frost, Raven & Coyote, Santa 2. Interesting portfolio. Seriously. Vengence over justice. Longing over lust. Horror over evil. Persuasion over truth. Make sure your gods aren't "right" all the time, the god of the underworld should be capable of compassion, the leader of the gods should have flaws, the gods which could easily be friends are foes for a wrong done thousands of years ago. 3. It doesn't have to be long, but give your gods a inter-locking history. Lets say there was once two suns. Perhaps a war goddess was scorned by one of them. So she attacked him, blinding him, inventing violence and making the other god the god of night, the moon bares the scars his eyes have. 4. Give your gods four or five domains, that way most people will be happy. :D 5. Oh, and, don't fear having similiar gods. The god of ship builders, god of trade and god of deep, dark sea is different enough if they're well written.
Darth Syntax 02-18-08, 04:33 PM	To extend upon what Namer said, I would recommend not focusing on such things as alignment and domains but rather construct gods around a few related themes and extend them from their. Polytheistic gods are rarely simply the god of X and Y but have a whole set of attributes and forces over which they hold sway. Look at Mars, for example. Yes he was the god of warfare, but he was also (and originally) a deity of agriculture, protector of cattle, god the growth and fertility, as well as being associated with the dead. Mars as a war god probably grew out of his role as a protector rather than, like Ares, having originated as a god of strife and bloodshed (the horrors of war). Also, writing a bit of mythology can also be of use in forming the personality of the various deities. I've been devising a pantheon myself, worshiped by a particular group of elves called the Jaur, so I can at least provide an example of what I am talking about. Inuc is the god of the daytime sky, the light bringer, protector of the orb of the sun, pilot of the solar ship, god of growth and fertility, lord of spring and summer, and foremost champion of the gods in their ancient and eternal struggle with the demons. Although he is the divine champion and slayer of demons Inuc is not the stereotypical warrior god as he fights as much with trickery as he does with outright force. For much of history, Inuc was regarded as the lord of the gods and as such there are numerous tales of his exploits. Most of these myths involve either Inuc acting as the benefactor of mortals and gods, or him being humbled for his characteristic arrogance and pride. However, unlike many prideful gods, Inuc learns over the course of history and the Inuc that has been worshiped for centuries is far wiser and less brash than the Inuc of the oldest of stories. Inuc, in his capacity as a solar god, carries the sun through the heavens upon his boat and as such is recognized as both the guardian of the sun and the patron of sailors. Iconography • Copper Skin: Inuc is depicted with skin of burnished copper which he gained from constant exposure to the sun • Nimbus of Light: As the lord of light Inuc is surrounded by a shinning halo which is so bright it burns away all impure and untrue things. • Cloak of Feathers: Inuc wears a long cloak of kakapo feathers which hides his radiance so that he does not unduly destroy those who petition him • The Solar Ship: His ship is usually depicted as a long narrow boat intricately carved and with a high coiling stern upon which he hangs the lantern of the sun • The Lantern of the Sun: Inuc stole the sun from the demon Gwaltšn and carries the great light about in a black metal lantern. When the lantern is open, the sun shines out and it is day, when the sun suddenly vanishes (as in an eclipse) it is a sign that Gwaltšn has nearly found Inuc and the light must be hidden. • The Pole: Inuc is usually depicted carrying a long golden staff or pole which he uses both to propel his boat and as a weapon to combat his foes Important Myths The Theft of the Sun: When the cosmos began, it was all in darkness save for the house of Gwaltšn, the lord of the demons wherein there burned a fabulous lantern. Rumors of the lantern spread far and wide, but Gwaltšn jealously guarded it and would permit none to see it. Wily Inuc heard of the lantern and vowed to the other gods that he could steal it from the house of Gwaltšn and so bring light to the cosmos. All the gods laughed at him, for they knew that no thief could enter the house of Gwaltšn for the demon had ten thousand unblinking eyes and they knew that none could best the demon in battle for he was ten thousand arms, each pair stronger than the last. But Inuc was not dissuaded and set off in his boat to the house of Gwaltšn. Upon reaching the shore, Inuc smeared himself in white clay and draped himself in a tattered cloak and so in the guise of a holy beggar, knocked upon the door of the demon. Gwaltšn, upon seeing what he thought to be a wise and holy being, brought him into the house and offered him the wine of hospitality. Inuc consumes the first bowl of wine, and is offered another, this one too he drinks, but the third and all thereafter he secretly pours upon the floor. Gwaltšn, failing to see this trick, drinks deeply of the wine and, after many bowls, is overcome with it and so falls asleep. Inuc, seeing his host sleeping took the great lantern from the house and sailed away with it upon his boat. When Gwaltšn awoke from his stupor he discovered that his lantern was missing and, enraged, set out to retrieve it from the thief. Inuc, knowing that he would be chased, kept the lantern in his boat and sailed across the heavens, only uncovering the lantern when he knew it was safe to let its light shine. So was the light of the sun brought into the cosmos. Epithets The Shining One, The Lord of Noon, Lightbringer, Sun Thief, The Companion, The Gardener, Friend of Mortals, He of the Burning Light, The Cunning One, The Laughing God
Tovec 02-18-08, 04:42 PM	Based on interdependency theme lately. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993071 Just because there is an 'established' history doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't rewrite it. Previous stuff may say a creature is one alignment and you may decide it should be another. Where is the original poster anyhow? I don't think I've seen his replies lately. Oh! I almost forgot. Try and give gods demi-aspects that you wouldn't normally have thought of before. Agriculture is a good example. So is trade or what not. Consider the ranking of the god (even if you don't use demi, lesser, intermediate, greater). Try and think of how the gods are related and how they came into being. Some may have evolved from mortals, been given spark by another or some may just be so old that they have always been a god. I also heavily suggest writing down any alignment left-overs that you come up with. For example, my CG god of experience is also god of liberation but initially I wanted him to have music, theatre and wine. In later write ups of other gods I ended up giving music to another (racial) deity and created a completely new NG demi-goddess of fertility and wine (that looks like Hathor).