Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zopzop 10-23-07, 07:03 PM	I just got through reading FC1 and it depressed heck out of me. Where to begin? 1) The stats his aspect had in the book were a joke. Supposedly Demogorgon holds the title of "Prince of Demons" by "sheer might alone". But there (to my amazement) are a couple of demon princes that put him to shame. Take for example the aspect of Orcus mentioned in the FC1. Demogorgon's aspect is powerless against him (I'm not even talking figuratively. Check out the stats on their aspects, Demogorgon's would get crushed by Orcus'). 2) According to the FC1, Graz'zt's empire dwarfs all other demon princes, even Demo's. 3) According to the FC1, Orcus has more worshipers and is closer to godhood than either Graz'zt or Demogorgon. In what way is Demogorgon "Prince of Demons" since in every way that counts : personal power, empire, worshipers he's INFERIOR to either Graz'zt or Orcus! In terms of the three way war between Demogorgon, Graz'zt, and Orcus, (again according to the FC1) it's been Orcus that's been driving Graz'zts' forces back and actually succeeded in taking out an entire city in Graz'zts' realm. The FC1 doesn't mention any such successes by Demogorgon against either Graz'zt or Orcus. What do you guys think? IMHO the powers that be need to significantly up Demogorgon's power level (I'm not talking Asmodeus level, but something becoming his title as "Prince of Demons").
Climhazzard 10-23-07, 08:31 PM	Dicefreaks, my friend. (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=213) If you want truly powerful demon lords and archdevils, there is no other place. While the creatures they have there are beyond the scope of nearly all D&D campaigns (assuming you start low-level and go well into the epic range), I think they might be what you are looking for in your game. That is, assuming your players will not directly confront him until they hit level 40. And if the aspects are too weak, give them class levels, and/or spellcasting like solars.
Zousha_Omenohu 10-23-07, 10:35 PM	I just got through reading FC1 and it depressed heck out of me. Where to begin? 1) The stats his aspect had in the book were a joke. Supposedly Demogorgon holds the title of "Prince of Demons" by "sheer might alone". But there (to my amazement) are a couple of demon princes that put him to shame. Take for example the aspect of Orcus mentioned in the FC1. Demogorgon's aspect is powerless against him (I'm not even talking figuratively. Check out the stats on their aspects, Demogorgon's would get crushed by Orcus'). 2) According to the FC1, Graz'zt's empire dwarfs all other demon princes, even Demo's. 3) According to the FC1, Orcus has more worshipers and is closer to godhood than either Graz'zt or Demogorgon. In what way is Demogorgon "Prince of Demons" since in every way that counts : personal power, empire, worshipers he's INFERIOR to either Graz'zt or Orcus! In terms of the three way war between Demogorgon, Graz'zt, and Orcus, (again according to the FC1) it's been Orcus that's been driving Graz'zts' forces back and actually succeeded in taking out an entire city in Graz'zts' realm. The FC1 doesn't mention any such successes by Demogorgon against either Graz'zt or Orcus. What do you guys think? IMHO the powers that be need to significantly up Demogorgon's power level (I'm not talking Asmodeus level, but something becoming his title as "Prince of Demons"). It seems to me that they're all about equal. Demogorgon is (presumably) the most powerful personally (IIRC, he beat Orcus in a straight fight), while Graz'zt has the largest empire and Orcus has the most worshipers. While Demogorgon isn't the most popular guy in the Abyss, he's so powerful that Orcus and Graz'zt know better than to tangle with him directly. Just because Graz'zt rules three layers of the Abyss doesn't give him the power to take Demogorgon down. Orcus may have more worshipers, but he had to go through a lot, and even if he's on the cusp of godhood, once he hits that he won't be a demon anymore, but a god, effectively removing him from such a power struggle. Demogorgon hold his position through sheer might alone, which in this case means that no other demon (thus far anyway) can best him in a straight fight so they have to use other methods to score victories against him.
ArcTan 10-23-07, 10:51 PM	Dicefreaks, my friend. (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=213) If you want truly powerful demon lords and archdevils, there is no other place. While the creatures they have there are beyond the scope of nearly all D&D campaigns (assuming you start low-level and go well into the epic range), I think they might be what you are looking for in your game. That is, assuming your players will not directly confront him until they hit level 40. And if the aspects are too weak, give them class levels, and/or spellcasting like solars. He's not talking about powering up Demogorgon relative to the PCs, but powering him up relative to Orcus and Grazz't.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-24-07, 12:45 AM	1) The stats his aspect had in the book were a joke. Supposedly Demogorgon holds the title of "Prince of Demons" by "sheer might alone". But there (to my amazement) are a couple of demon princes that put him to shame. Take for example the aspect of Orcus mentioned in the FC1. Demogorgon's aspect is powerless against him (I'm not even talking figuratively. Check out the stats on their aspects, Demogorgon's would get crushed by Orcus'). Aspects don't necessarily indicate the raw power of their true forms. And their true forms don't have hard stats, so I wouldn't read into it that much. 2) According to the FC1, Graz'zt's empire dwarfs all other demon princes, even Demo's. *shrug* Graz'zt controls a trio of layers of the Abyss, but his influence within the Abyss at large is lower than Demogorgon's (though arguably not perhaps in planar politics overall). 3) According to the FC1, Orcus has more worshipers and is closer to godhood than either Graz'zt or Demogorgon. Even if we don't take into account the metagame issue of 3e stripping Demogorgon (and other demon lords) of any divinity that they had in previous editions, Orcus was a god in the past within 3e continuity on the topic. Following his death, unlife as Tenebrous, and subsequent return to the Abyss, he lost that overt divinity, but he still has the trappings of that lost godhood to draw upon such as the experience of forming cults, etc. He's done it once, so it's going to be easier for him to do a second time, assuming that's a path he cares to go down. Graz'zt on the other hand has no intention of becoming a god. He openly avoids it, viewing its benefits as grossly not worth the drawbacks and liabilities it offers. Besides, godhood really doesn't matter here. Deific status is effectively meaningless within the politics of the Abyss as the abyssal lords are concerned. It certainly affects their interaction with the prime material, and obligations therein to worshippers, but it doesn't matter to the Abyss. The FC1 doesn't mention any such successes by Demogorgon against either Graz'zt or Orcus. Because he's probably fighting himself more than anything on some level. Most recently (as of EttDWP) he's currently got Lolth on the defense and making her scramble to defend the borders of her deific domain.
zopzop 10-24-07, 01:10 AM	Aspects don't necessarily indicate the raw power of their true forms. And their true forms don't have hard stats, so I wouldn't read into it that much. Good point, but doesn't it strike you as odd that the Prince of Demons aspect is POWERLESS against the aspect of the Demon Prince of Undead? Orcus' aspect is literally IMMUNE to all of Demogorgon's aspect's spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and physical attacks. It just irks me. Because he's probably fighting himself more than anything on some level. Most recently (as of EttDWP) he's currently got Lolth on the defense and making her scramble to defend the borders of her deific domain. Now this is more like it :) Where can I read up more on this? What's "EttDWP"?
Thegans 10-24-07, 01:12 AM	Good point, but doesn't it strike you as odd that the Prince of Demons aspect is POWERLESS against the aspect of the Demon Prince of Undead? Orcus' aspect is literally IMMUNE to all of Demogorgon's aspect's spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and physical attacks. It just irks me. Now this is more like it :) Where can I read up more on this? What's "EttDWP"? Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-24-07, 02:19 AM	Good point, but doesn't it strike you as odd that the Prince of Demons aspect is POWERLESS against the aspect of the Demon Prince of Undead? Orcus' aspect is literally IMMUNE to all of Demogorgon's aspect's spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and physical attacks. It just irks me. *nod* I suspect the various aspects weren't tested by having them fight each other (I wouldn't see it as a high priority, but that's just me). I also don't know how much the developers did with the numbers after Jacobs and Mona turned the book in. Seems like a question you might ask them. Now this is more like it :) Where can I read up more on this? What's "EttDWP"? It's among the potential ending results for Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, and the one I went with in Lolth's writeup in the last print issue of Dragon.
JimProfit 10-24-07, 02:42 AM	Dicefreaks, my friend. (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=213) If you want truly powerful demon lords and archdevils, there is no other place. While the creatures they have there are beyond the scope of nearly all D&D campaigns (assuming you start low-level and go well into the epic range), I think they might be what you are looking for in your game. That is, assuming your players will not directly confront him until they hit level 40. And if the aspects are too weak, give them class levels, and/or spellcasting like solars. Well, demon lords would imply that PCs don't plain to shank them and take thier stuff. They're friggin demon lords, we should be begging them to even notice us, let alone try to defeat them. 2000 friggin hp, even me who doesn't bow to anyone thought "holycrap! there's no way we can win! Shutup and bow stupid!"
goldomark 10-24-07, 04:03 AM	What was Demogorgon trying to do in Dungeon's Savage tide adventures? Was one of is personnality trying to kill the other one?
Kain_Darkwind 10-24-07, 08:36 AM	Well, Paizo apparently thought Demogorgon deserved to be CR 34 and Orcus CR 33. (Or was it 33 and 32? I forget) So they'd probably agree with you that he needs a boost. As for Orcus being immune, the double action ability that Demogorgon has is a major advantage in any fight, even if Orcus is immune to the special attacks.
zopzop 10-24-07, 01:43 PM	As for Orcus being immune, the double action ability that Demogorgon has is a major advantage in any fight, even if Orcus is immune to the special attacks. The aspect of Orcus isn't just immune to the aspect of Demogorgon's special attacks, its immune to ALL of it's attacks (physical, spell-like, and supernatural). It would be like a kobold with the dual action ability fighting a balor. I kid you not, if you have access to the FC1 check out Orcus' stat block. He is so overpowered that the COMBINED might (physical attacks, spell-like abilities, supernatural) of the following aspects still could not dent him : the succubus queen (I can't spell her name), Obox-ob, Pale Night, and Demogorgon himself.
Kain_Darkwind 10-24-07, 02:42 PM	The aspect of Orcus isn't just immune to the aspect of Demogorgon's special attacks, its immune to ALL of it's attacks (physical, spell-like, and supernatural). It would be like a kobold with the dual action ability fighting a balor. I kid you not, if you have access to the FC1 check out Orcus' stat block. He is so overpowered that the COMBINED might (physical attacks, spell-like abilities, supernatural) of the following aspects still could not dent him : the succubus queen (I can't spell her name), Obox-ob, Pale Night, and Demogorgon himself. That's possible, I'll check it out once I get home and can flip through the book. Here are the stats I use for the Big Three. Demogorgon (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=7) Orcus (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=21) Graz'zt (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=141)
ZeroSD 10-24-07, 08:25 PM	Well, Paizo apparently thought Demogorgon deserved to be CR 34 and Orcus CR 33. (Or was it 33 and 32? I forget) So they'd probably agree with you that he needs a boost. As for Orcus being immune, the double action ability that Demogorgon has is a major advantage in any fight, even if Orcus is immune to the special attacks. 33 and 32, which is still plenty. Which reminds me: Demogorgon, as shown in Savage Tide, has a lot of unique and powerful servants, like a pair of single-headed Demogorgon clones, and a giant dragon-wyrm thing that's been called the 'Tarrasque of the Abyss', all in the 23 CR range. I don't think the other two have as many servants of that range. And while he's not the most popular, he does have some key alliances/holding, like control over the Death Knights he invented, and the alliance with Malcontet since she's a rival of Graz'zt, and she's very popular.
DwarfPcfan 10-25-07, 01:22 PM	This might just be me, but after so many years of DnD from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed to 3.5, I'm completely O.K with Orcus kicking the crap out of Demogorgon. Not that Demogorgon is'nt cool or anything but real world mythology pens Orcus as a God of the Underworld, the dead, etc. Worse, Demorgorgon was nothing more then a made up demon by some mostly forgothen monk. And following planescape. Orcus is litterally one of the 2 most active Demons ever (the other being Grazzt), he reached Godhood, he killed Primus and corrupted the Modrons, he beat back gods and claimed back his layer. He fought back Guardinals, Eladrins and who knows what. He rose as Tenebrous and wielded the last Word. While Demorgon created death knights, rose in the abyss and pretty much argued with himself. I think people should just stop complaining about demonic power levels and either make up their own or accept that sometimes the real king of the Hill is'nt the ruling king. But... If you ask me, Orcus should kill Demorgorgon, claim the title Prince of Demons and then rise to Godhood. Then the prince of demons would be a god and the whole multiverse would quake unlike it dit since the time of the Queen of Chaos and the Fall of Asmodeus... Orcus is just so much cooler then Demogorgon...
StevenO 10-25-07, 01:46 PM	Someone needs to get a hold of the last few issues of Dungeon that conclude the Savage Tide Adventure Path. I believe Wizards has even admitted the stats in FC1 are on the weak side but there is information on how to power them up.
goldomark 10-25-07, 02:24 PM	Purely stat wise, in the Savage Tide series, Demogorgon is a CR 33 critter. In the latest Demonomicon article, Graz'zt is a CR 32. Much higher then the CR 24 of the Book of Vile Darkness. In this new light, I do think Demo needs more power, is mantle of Prince of Demons should give him more power. I would start with the number of dices he uses for damage. 1d6 for is tentacles? Come on, he is huge, its at least 4d6. Its not much, but it has a psychological impact: Wow the Prince of Demons... (reading)... is so weak.
The_Cheeseman 10-25-07, 05:07 PM	Demogorgon can walk, swim, and fly faster than Orcus, with better maneuverability. Orcus can't breathe water, therefore Demogorgon is pretty much safe from Orcus in the majority of his own Abyssal realm. Neither one can deal a really significant amount of physical damage to the other, but Demogorgon can make 4 tentacle attacks each round that have a 50% chance to hit (including 2-point Power attack to bump average damage per hit over Orcus' DR) and a 40% chance of dealing 1d6 Con damage when they do (Orcus is immune to ability drain, but not ability damage). So that's about 2 Con damage every round, not considering Orcus' rapidly dropping Fort save. All Orcus could really do as a counter would be to use his enervation spell-like ability to drain Demogorgon's levels. However, with only a 25% chance to overcome Demo's SR, and only one chance each round, my money is on Demo to win that race. Plus, Orcus only has a short time before Demogorgon's summoned balor chops up all of his crappy undead, dominates his marilith, and teams up with her against him, too. So you've got Demogorgon, a balor and (if Orcus is dumb enough to summon it) a dominated marilith against Orcus. I know who I'm putting MY money on...
zopzop 10-26-07, 01:06 PM	Worse, Demorgorgon was nothing more then a made up demon by some mostly forgothen monk. Using that logic, who is Graz'zt and why should he be in the top 3 in terms of power in the Abyss? (Orcus is immune to ability drain, but not ability damage). So that's about 2 Con damage every round, not considering Orcus' rapidly dropping Fort save. Good catch, I missed that. You are correct, I just rechecked the FC1. So you've got Demogorgon, a balor and (if Orcus is dumb enough to summon it) a dominated marilith against Orcus. I know who I'm putting MY money on... This is actually how I pictured a fight between the two of them should go. A close fight to the death with Demogorgon edging out Orcus. But we still have a problem here. Demogorgon's other main rival, Graz'zt. According to the stats given by FC1, Demogorgon would fail a save vs. fear against Graz'zt's gaze attack and be panicked. What I'm trying to get at here is basically this : Demogorgon, according to the official Wizard's stuff, is The Prince of Demons. A title he holds "by sheer might alone." This should mean that he's more powerful than ANY individual demon prince in the Abyss.
Lycanthromancer 10-26-07, 02:33 PM	2000 friggin hp, even me who doesn't bow to anyone thought "holycrap! there's no way we can win! Shutup and bow stupid!"A friend of mine made a 16th level paladin that did that regularly against evil outsiders when he critical'd. He took out a demigod by himself twice in a single battle with a well-timed critical hit and a subsequent use of a Ring of Three Wishes. He took it out in a single hit. The demigod in question had a contingencied true resurrection, AND WE HAD TO KILL HIM AGAIN. Luckily, the player's next action was to make a wish: "I wish my next strike were as potent as my last." Yes, the DM sent us after a demigod, and yes, we won (but only because of that). That particular DM was E.V.I.L. [edit] Not to mention that I could take virtually any creature in 3.5 out with a single 15th level wizard using core-only spells, so long as I got initiative on him. 1,008,000d6 points of damage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127) with two mid-level spells. I had to come up with combos like this to survive in that particular campaign. Also, check, the How is magic not broken, again? (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D10768110%23post1076 8110) link in my signature for more details.
ArcTan 10-27-07, 12:02 AM	This might just be me, but after so many years of DnD from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed to 3.5, I'm completely O.K with Orcus kicking the crap out of Demogorgon. Not that Demogorgon is'nt cool or anything but real world mythology pens Orcus as a God of the Underworld, the dead, etc. Worse, Demorgorgon was nothing more then a made up demon by some mostly forgothen monk. Since the actual D&D entities bear almost no resemblance to the mythic sources of their names, this doesn't actually matter very much. Besides, the medieval Demogorgon was conceived as referring to the very, very scariest Nameless Horror from the infernal depths -- always invoked as something so frightening that nearly nothing was known about it. That seems like a good enough rationale to make the D&D Demogorgon really scary to me. (Indeed, compared to the medieval Demogorgon, giving the D&D Demogorgon a defined shape and form -- the mandrill heads thing -- seems kind of like a letdown.) I mean, sure, yes, Demogorgon was "made up" and we've mostly forgotten whoever it was who originally made him up. That's, in fact, true of *every* god and demon from mythology, including Orcus (unless you're claiming that Orcus is real and/or you know the name of the person who made up Orcus).
Shemeska the Marauder 10-27-07, 12:48 AM	Since the actual D&D entities bear almost no resemblance to the mythic sources of their names, this doesn't actually matter very much. Quoted for truth.
DwarfPcfan 10-28-07, 03:14 PM	My point was'nt wether Dnd's Demogorgon is the same as the medieval demogorgon or that Orcus is the roman god Orcus. And neither was it wether one was more real then the other (Since both are made up) The only point I was trying to make is that Orcus is a so much more dynamic and active force of evil then Demogorgon ever was. He's got a hell of a tract record to booth with all that stuff he did. I only quoted real world mythology to support that argument. Simply put, there's so much more material to work with on Orcus. Wether you only use DnD material (Planescape or otherwise) or if , you're like me and you have fun dipping in the great inspiritional pot of real world mythology for planar inspiration. Seems to me that Orcus is a so much cooler demon then Demorgorgon ever was. That's why I think Orcus should destroy demogorgon and claim the title Prince of Demons, he deserves it. Unlike Demorgorgon who wastes centuries arguing with himself. Orcus only takes a break from following epic plots to either nurse his wounds or beat back the armies trying to invade his layer. It's not, a question of wether one if more valid then the other. It's style, what kind of a Prince of demons is a giant two-headed Mandril with tentacles that argues with himself constantly compared to an Immortal fallen deity of corruption, undeath and fear that scours the planes spreading evil and chaos is an endless bid for supremacy!:P :P
Witch 10-28-07, 03:23 PM	Ehm, yeah, apparently your notion of what Demogorgon is and does isn't as interesting as one could make it.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-28-07, 04:41 PM	It's not, a question of wether one if more valid then the other. It's style I prefer Demogorgon for the role because, among other reasons, he's a true child of the Abyss, unlike Orcus who began as an evil mortal.
Witch 10-28-07, 05:29 PM	Are you saying that tanar'ri aren't true children of the Abyss?
Shemeska the Marauder 10-28-07, 06:25 PM	Are you saying that tanar'ri aren't true children of the Abyss? Well there are tanar'ri and there are tanar'ri. They weren't anything of the Abyss till the first of their kind were intentionally created from larvae by the Obyriths (possibly Pale Night in particular), and after that the Abyss seemed to accept the new archetype of CE and birthed them spontaneously (which is where Demogorgon came from). Mortal souls accepted by the Abyss and warped into tanar'ri are indeed tanar'ri, but Demogorgon's birth as a tanar'ri strikes me as more fitting for the Prince of Demons, rather than being an ascended mortal. Orcus: "I'm an ascended mortal! Rarr! Orcus demands more donuts! And cheetoes! I have risen from nothing to the heights of power, bring me what I demand! Rarr...om nom nom nom..." Graz'zt: "You could see precisely where I came from, but mom tends to drive people utterly moonbat insane and... yeah we'll leave it at that." Demogorgon: "I'm the original and most primal incarnation of the absolute terror and fear that radiated from the first larvae scattered into the Abyss from the prime. I'm not just something terrible born of mundane and mortal roots, but the aggregate sum of that which you fear." *at this point Hethradia gives Aameul a wet willy with one of those energy draining tentacles*
Witch 10-28-07, 06:31 PM	Well there are tanar'ri and there are tanar'ri. They weren't anything of the Abyss till the first of their kind were intentionally created from larvae by the Obyriths (possibly Pale Night in particular), and after that the Abyss seemed to accept the new archetype of CE and birthed them spontaneously (which is where Demogorgon came from). Mortal souls accepted by the Abyss and warped into tanar'ri are indeed tanar'ri, but Demogorgon's birth as a tanar'ri strikes me as more fitting for the Prince of Demons, rather than being an ascended mortal. Orcus: "I'm an ascended mortal! Rarr! Orcus demands more donuts! And cheetoes! I have risen from nothing to the heights of power, bring me what I demand! Rarr...om nom nom nom..." Graz'zt: "You could see precisely where I came from, but mom tends to drive people utterly moonbat insane and... yeah we'll leave it at that." Demogorgon: "I'm the original and most primal incarnation of the absolute terror and fear that radiated from the first larvae scattered into the Abyss from the prime. I'm not just something terrible born of mundane and mortal roots, but the aggregate sum of that which you fear." *at this point Hethradia gives Aameul a wet willy with one of those energy draining tentacles* You seem to look at ascended mortals entirely differently than I do. An ascended mortal is someone who overcame his mortality and became part of the Abyss as an outsider - not in the D&D term, but in the terms of general speech. Orcus was never an ascended mortal. He did not overcome his mortality. He succumbed to it; his soul was purified into the purest Chaotic Evil almost as thoroughly as Demogorgon. (I say almost, because Demogorgon still remains the greatest incarnation of the Abyss. If Demogorgon were not, Orcus might well be the purest Chaotic Evil in existence. Or Graz'zt.)
zopzop 10-28-07, 11:32 PM	I prefer Demogorgon for the role because, among other reasons, he's a true child of the Abyss, unlike Orcus who began as an evil mortal. Agree 10000%. But I have a really bad feeling that the powers that be have it in for good ol' Demogorgon. Whatever happens I really hope that Graz'zt doesn't get the title "Prince of Demons." He's nothing but a demonic Hue Hefner :( BUT, if Demo does go down, I hope Orcus takes it.
demiurge23 10-29-07, 09:23 AM	Hey guys. I believe Demogorgon should have a power boost. I guess the most accurate source of his power would be the dungeon magizine 150. He is at CR 33. While this is much better than whats in FC1, I want him to be able to stand up to a god. Right now he just cannot do this. I know gods dont have CRs but you can bet that they, at least lesser and above, are more powerful than CR 33. If Demogorgon is THE MOST powerful Demon he sghouldnt be somewhat equel to a greater god? It seems odd that the Gods of the Kobold would be able to waste Demogorgon in an instant should he wish it. Plus, I thought Demogorgon WAS a god and demon prince? He had some evil intelligent vampire stingrays that worshiped him in 1ed and 2ed. What happened to them? 3ed writters make up some lame god for them to worship insted to explain what happened? I dont see the big comparison between Orcus and Demogorgon but between Asmodeus and Demogorgon. Orcus is out, Demogorgon beat him down in a 1 on 1 battle durring the last module, while suffering little in responce. No, it is between the two big guys of evil. In the 1ed Monster manual Asmodeus and Demogorgon were very close in power with the edge going to Demogorgon. In almost everyway he was slightly superior. Now, going on the differance in power between FC1 Demogorgon and FC2 Asmodeus, Asmodeus is much more powerful. I am sure if they wrote up the "official" Asmodeus he would be like CR 38. Now, from what I hear Asmodeus is a GOD in 4e? Whats with all the love for the big Devil? EVERYWHERE I see Asmodeus' stats against Demogorgon's stats Asmodeus is more than slightly more powerful. That is Everywhere exept for the book that invented them for the game: Monster Manual 1ed. Shouldnt they be too close to call as they were originally created? I dont even know if Demogorgon is in 4ed? They may have gotten rid of him all together.
zopzop 10-29-07, 03:16 PM	Plus, I thought Demogorgon WAS a god and demon prince? He had some evil intelligent vampire stingrays that worshiped him in 1ed and 2ed. What happened to them? 3ed writters make up some lame god for them to worship insted to explain what happened? I wasn't around for 1ed or 2ed but I've heard this too. I think it was mentioned in the FC1, I'll double check when I get home. I dont see the big comparison between Orcus and Demogorgon but between Asmodeus and Demogorgon. That's what I thought too. Back in 3e the BoVD had Demo at CR 30 and Asmodeus at CR 32. BUT Demo had lot's of "perks", like 12 maralith blackguards that served as his bodyguards AND unique balor. No other demon prince came close. Now, going on the differance in power between FC1 Demogorgon and FC2 Asmodeus, Asmodeus is much more powerful. Worse, Asmodeus would just look at Demo and he'd be forced to submit (ie fail his will save). Fight over. Now, from what I hear Asmodeus is a GOD in 4e? Man I hope not :( I dont even know if Demogorgon is in 4ed? They may have gotten rid of him all together. Ugh, If this is true I hate 4e already :( And to those who think Demo "looks stupid" here is a link to a pic that I pray wizards uses as the "official" Demogorgon : http://www.merzo.net/001demogorgon.htm Still think he looks stupid?
demiurge23 10-29-07, 04:18 PM	1) I believe Asmodeus is listed as a god in Fearun. I am sure someone else knows more about this. 2) I have absolutly no info to suggest Demogorgon is out. But I wouldnt be surprised in the least if Demogorgon was out, Or that he was still in but Orcus was prince of demons. They have already given Death knights to Orcus In 4e nothing would surprise me at this point. 3) Yep Demogorgon had some great servants, in the last dragon he had MANY very powerful underlings. HOWEVER I think Asmodeus, according to FC2, can summon an Arch devil to do his bidding!!! Wow if true Demogorgon cant possibly trump that! Again I am sure someone else here has the story on that, I dont have FC2.
Witch 10-29-07, 04:29 PM	So what would it mean if Orcus was named "Prince of Demons"? Nothing. The title means nothing. In itself, it has no power - the only thing it means is that one is acknowledged to be one of the greatest demons in existance. Orcus and Graz'zt could both claim the title Prince of Demons, and noone would be able to stop them; their servants would all be forced to use the term, and scholars would be divided among the case. People attach far too much importance to the term.
zopzop 10-29-07, 04:41 PM	1) I believe Asmodeus is listed as a god in Fearun. I am sure someone else knows more about this. My knowledge of DnD stuff is pretty limited. All I know about devils and demons comes from the BoVD and the two FCs. I remember in Asmodeus' entry that what he wants most is to be worshiped as a god. So I always assumed that he wasn't a divinity. They have already given Death knights to Orcus In 4e nothing would surprise me at this point. OMG. Didn't Demogorgon create those things with help from Dagon? What is wizards's doing? :weep: Yep Demogorgon had some great servants, in the last dragon he had MANY very powerful underlings. I should start collecting issues of Dragon magazine :) But yeah in the BoVD Demo's servants had higher CRs than most demon princes :D HOWEVER I think Asmodeus, according to FC2, can summon an Arch devil to do his bidding!!! Wow if true Demogorgon cant possibly trump that! Again I am sure someone else here has the story on that, I dont have FC2. It's true. Asmodeus' aspect can summon a pit fiend or any two aspects of the other Archdukes 3 times per day. Slightly overpowered.
Lobsopdoy 10-29-07, 05:17 PM	*Snip* And to those who think Demo "looks stupid" here is a link to a pic that I pray wizards uses as the "official" Demogorgon : http://www.merzo.net/001demogorgon.htm Still think he looks stupid? Awesome picture
Kain_Darkwind 10-29-07, 10:11 PM	So what would it mean if Orcus was named "Prince of Demons"? Nothing. The title means nothing. In itself, it has no power - the only thing it means is that one is acknowledged to be one of the greatest demons in existance. Orcus and Graz'zt could both claim the title Prince of Demons, and noone would be able to stop them; their servants would all be forced to use the term, and scholars would be divided among the case. People attach far too much importance to the term. Actually, the title carries actual tangible power in WotC official lore. The end of the Savage Tide has different demon lords (and characters too, if they want) vying for the right to claim the title. I believe it grants Demogorgon his aura of demonic command, but I'm uncertain. Being the 'Prince of Demons' is as obvious to The Abyss as being 'President of the United States of America' or 'Queen of England' is to the real world. You can't really claim to be it if you aren't.
Witch 10-30-07, 03:49 AM	Your examples seem rather contrary to how a chaotic plane would function. I'd see it more like the situations where there were multiple popes, each able to claim the title of pope when they had sufficiently widespread support. Ofcourse, WotC might disagree - but I'd like a citation or source so I can read up on how the title of Prince of Demons carries any power with it.
demiurge23 10-30-07, 08:47 AM	QUOTE=Witch;14203468]Your examples seem rather contrary to how a chaotic plane would function. I'd see it more like the situations where there were multiple popes, each able to claim the title of pope when they had sufficiently widespread support. Ofcourse, WotC might disagree - but I'd like a citation or source so I can read up on how the title of Prince of Demons carries any power with it.[/QUOTE] Zopzop- Yep since the fiend folio Demogorgon has been credited with the creation of the death nights. I read " the Ecology of the death Knight " for 4e and it stated that most likely Orcus created the Death Knights. Demogorgon is now only credited with St Kargoth who is now NOT the 1st death knight only a powerful one. I am sure they did this as Orcus is prince of the Undead and it would be too complex for new players to have an Undead created by Demogorgon. Those "new players" need everything nice, neat and simple I guess :rolleyes: Oh also It is Dungeon magazine 150 with the good stuff about demogorgon, my fault for putting Dragon. Witch- As Kain said in Dungeon 150 Demogorgon gets an extra " Aura of demonic command" in which any demon within so many feet of Demogorgon must make a DC( a very high one at that) or automatically do Demogorgon will, no matter who the demon was originally under. This is what being "Price of Demons" gives you. Pretty sweet power. Also it is made clear in all the books about fiends that Orcus, Grazzt and Obox-Ob, who was Prince of Demons for a while, covet the title and look to take it from Demogorgon. That is the reason Orcus came back to Demogorgons layer, after getting beat up, and hid in the Jungle: so that if Demogorgon was destroyed he could swoop in and take the title. That is the reason He, and the others, are fighting demogorgon in the first place. So no its not as easy as just saying "I'm Prince of Demons" and its as good as Demogorgons Legit title. I am not sure who he killed to get it though? Anyway Look to Dungeon Mag 150 " Savage Tide " for more info. Great way to end the run for the mag if you ask me :D But I think they could make the Title worth alot more though. I think if they are going to give Asmodeus Godhood they should up the power that the Title "Prince of Demons" gives to make it something REALLY worth fighting for. Say it made the Demon Prince on par with Greater god on many levels and gave a handful of abilities. Perhaps immunity to Divine abilities would be in place. Or simply up Demogorgons power, which I doubt they will. The current group of writters seem to really like Asmodeus
Ornum 10-30-07, 09:29 AM	Witch- As Kain said in Dungeon 150 Demogorgon gets an extra " Aura of demonic command" in which any demon within so many feet of Demogorgon must make a DC( a very high one at that) or automatically do Demogorgon will, no matter who the demon was originally under. This is what being "Price of Demons" gives you. Pretty sweet power. Also it is made clear in all the books about fiends that Orcus, Grazzt and Obox-Ob, who was Prince of Demons for a while, covet the title and look to take it from Demogorgon. That is the reason Orcus came back to Demogorgons layer, after getting beat up, and hid in the Jungle: so that if Demogorgon was destroyed he could swoop in and take the title. That is the reason He, and the others, are fighting demogorgon in the first place. So no its not as easy as just saying "I'm Prince of Demons" and its as good as Demogorgons Legit title. I am not sure who he killed to get it though? Anyway Look to Dungeon Mag 150 " Savage Tide " for more info. Great way to end the run for the mag if you ask me :D That's pretty much how it is. Most demons want the title, but they know they have to somehow depose Demogorgon (or at least be in the same area when someone else does it) before they can claim the title. Oh, and Obox-Ob had the title, but was killed by the Queen of Chaos, and then the title was given to Miska the Wolf Spider. But I think they could make the Title worth alot more though. I think if they are going to give Asmodeus Godhood they should up the power that the Title "Prince of Demons" gives to make it something REALLY worth fighting for. Say it made the Demon Prince on par with Greater god on many levels and gave a handful of abilities. Perhaps immunity to Divine abilities would be in place. Or simply up Demogorgons power, which I doubt they will. The current group of writters seem to really like Asmodeus It's worth quite a bit, actually. the Savage Tide ending goes as far as to like the title with the dominant race of the Abyss. For instance, if Obox-Ob (or Dagon, I would think) ends up regaining the title, the Abyss changes. Instead of the plane spawning tanar'ri, it will instead make obyriths again, making those ancient demons THE main Abyssal race. So, I wonder what would happen if a non-demonic exemplar succeeded in gaining the title? Let's say that an eladrin took the mantle at the end of Savage Tide. Would a new demonic race be formed from the Abyss, one that was a dark and twisted version of the existing eladrins?
ZeroSD 10-30-07, 11:21 AM	Possibly, or possible it's just the Tanar'ri would be more warped in that direction. One wonders what various PCs would do with it :) Your examples seem rather contrary to how a chaotic plane would function. I'd see it more like the situations where there were multiple popes, each able to claim the title of pope when they had sufficiently widespread support. To an extent that's true- all powerful Demons are independant, and the big three are each fairly equal in total influence. But the title and crown isn't the same as being the pope, others don't nessesarily follow when not under it's direct command. It's a power that can be claimed by any who can take and hold it. The primary thing the crown has done is make people fight over it, really.
Kain_Darkwind 10-30-07, 12:31 PM	Your examples seem rather contrary to how a chaotic plane would function. I'd see it more like the situations where there were multiple popes, each able to claim the title of pope when they had sufficiently widespread support. Ofcourse, WotC might disagree - but I'd like a citation or source so I can read up on how the title of Prince of Demons carries any power with it. The Source is the Savage Tide adventure, found in the 12 last issues of Dungeon. The last issue in particular has the title of Prince being taken from Demogorgon in one of the possible endings. You can also read Demogorgon's entry in Dungeon. They make it quite clear that the title of Prince of Demons holds tangible power, it isn't just a claim.
Witch 10-30-07, 02:55 PM	I'll need to acquire that version of Dungeon, then. But I still don't find it very fitting or interesting, from what I hear of it so far.
aelryinth 10-30-07, 06:35 PM	Demogorgon's influence in the Abyss is unparalleled because of his title. As a true child of the Abyss, he gets more respect from the older powers (Dagon esp) then any of the current demons. His being the Prince basically confirms the state of the Abyss as it is. Keep in mind that all of Orcus' 'accomplishments' aren't that...they are attempts to regain what was taken from him. He was butchered by a Drow demigoddess, lost his divinity and his home plain, had to come back as undead (burning one of his contingency plans...Demogorgon would be restored by the Abyss itself!), nearly lose his soul to the Last Word, rebuild his precious wand that was destroyed by mortals, get restored to life and STILL not regain his divinity... In short, everything he's done being so hellaciously active, and he's not even back to where he started. Whereas Demogorgon is spinning plots across the entirety of the Abyss and preparing to become the KING of demons (able to make Orcus and Graz'zt bow to him) if the Savage Tide goes off. Demogorgon never lost his home plane, doesn't get butchered by demigoddesses, and commands more Forbidden Knowledge then Orcus ever will (if the Last Word was so damn potent, why didn't Orcus take out Demo with it, mmm?). Knowledge is power, and only the eldest of the Obyrith have knowledge surpassing Demogorgon, and they don't have the power to use it. ++++++++++++++++ I find it interesting how they divided up the major demon lords. Demogorgon is born from the primal, changing nature of the Abyss itself, as mortal sins flooded in. He's effectively a child of the plane, the Aspect of the Abyss itself. Graz'zt is an inheritor...the child of the former ruling race of the Abyss, dreaming of succeeding them. He is, in effect, Demonic Royalty, chasing the throne he believes is rightfully his. Orcus is one of the first mortal souls to fall to the Abyss, and he has clawed his way to his position of power. He's effectively a Risen Mortal Champion...and probably looked down on by the 'older' demons because of his mortal roots. His brashness shows in all the wasted power and deeds he's done that have gotten him absolutely nowhere. Fraz'Urb'Luu is probably the most personally powerful of the Elder Demons, and can even trick aspects into appearing on his home plane. He's effectively an Elder Statesman of the Abyss (Pazzuzu has power, but he just doesn't rate.) He's just impotent, like Obox Ob. Of the Four, Demogorgon has the least amount of interest in the Prime...except as a source of power, and yet manages to hold the greatest power in the Abyss. That may be a clue of the importance of the Prime to Demons right there...we really aren't. Except as fuel for a Savage Tide, I guess. ========== I too, really like the idea of Demogorgon creating the first death knight just to tweak Orcus' nose. Demogorgon's dominance of the death knights would be a huge reason why Orcus' undead-heavy armies never do well against the Prince of Demons...they just end up defecting to the Death Knights. ========== The rays which worshipped Demogorgon were the ixaxichitul (and no, I didn't spell it right). Demogorgon is very poular among the 'fallen races', 'elder peoples', 'primal mindset' types. He'd be a good choice as an alternate sponsor for the aboleth, for example. ===Aelryinth
Ornum 10-30-07, 06:48 PM	Possibly, or possible it's just the Tanar'ri would be more warped in that direction. One wonders what various PCs would do with it :) I'm going to run Savage Tide over the course of the next few months in my game, so I might change things a bit. I'll probably make the crown have a will of its own (sort of), in that it doesn't matter if there are those that would abstain from taking the mantle. If they are present and powerful enough, then they will have to make the level + CHA mod check with everyone else to see if they become the next Prince of Demons. This way, Celeste, Gwynharwyf, Charon, the PC's, Iggwilv, and even possibly Quath-Nomag all have to make the check (though I'd allow a penalty of some sort to at least give those that are unwilling the illusion of a choice in the matter).
Kain_Darkwind 10-31-07, 12:33 AM	I'll need to acquire that version of Dungeon, then. But I still don't find it very fitting or interesting, from what I hear of it so far. My point was only that in official WotC canon, the title carries actual power. I made no comments as to whether I liked it, thought it fitting or not. It is interesting and rather original in the way that it was conceived, I assume by James Jacobs.
Thegans 10-31-07, 08:39 PM	I'll need to acquire that version of Dungeon, then. But I still don't find it very fitting or interesting, from what I hear of it so far. the way I see it saying that the title Prince of Demons comes with power that Orcus and Graz'zt want to steal is basically the same as saying that Demogorgan owns a unique artifact that the other demon lords want. Expect in this case Demogorgan absorbed the power of the artifact and they have to kill him to get it. Then again that is rather similar to the process of becoming the Oinoloth in the third edition manual of the planes.